Without the federal EV tax credit, demand for electric cars would’ve eventually manifested in the United States on its own. But there’s no arguing that the tax credit accelerated that demand. The policy, which gifted a $7,500 tax rebate to buyers for EVs starting in 2009, did a lot to bring EVs closer to affordability;, being new, highly complex products, they were always going to be more expensive than their ICE counterparts. Without the tax credit, it’s entirely possible that Tesla wouldn’t be near as big as it is today. As of last week, that EV tax credit is dead. Unsurprisingly, automakers and dealers alike worry the EV market will now cave in on itself, considering every car in the segment just got a whole lot more expensive. To counteract this, automakers are attempting to fill the gap with discounts, rebates, and other incentives. But many of these deals won’t last forever.
What else? Tesla has offered its own car insurance since 2019 as a way to integrate the car ownership experience under one roof. Now, that arm of the company is facing a ban in California, with users reporting big delays in responses and unreasonable claim denials.
In other news, there’s a report out of Washington that says the Department of Energy is considering revoking $1.1 billion in grants to General Motors and Stellantis that would’ve been used to revitalize and retool old plants to build electric cars.
Speaking of Stellantis, it was named as a possible partner alongside Ford in a potential tie-up with Nissan. A report suggests Nissan could start selling rebadged Rogue hybrids to either of the brands mentioned above, a deal that could include a team-up in electric vehicle development. Nissan’s really doing everything it can to stay in the game.
The Discounts Aren’t Totally Gone Just Yet
There’s no doubt that the sales of electric cars are about to see a big slump in the fourth quarter. Lots of buyers sprang for their EVs last month to take advantage of the federal tax credit before it disappeared for good, resulting in record sales for some brands, including Tesla. With a bunch of satisfied buyers now out of the market (and the credit gone), there’s no way Q4 sales will reach anywhere near Q3’s numbers.
To cushion the fall, numerous brands are offering discounts of their own to keep buyers coming through the door. The most interesting strategy comes from Ford and GM, which, as The Autopian reported previously, actually used a loophole to take ownership of cars in its inventory it plans to lease to customers before the September 30th deadline, allowing lessees to take advantage of the credit even after that deadline has passed. Clever stuff. [Update: In the time since this article was published, GM has since backed out of this strategy, according to Reuters, and now plans to offer a more traditional lease incentive to bridge the gap left by the now-dead tax rebate. -BS]
Stellantis, the last of the Big Three, is using a more conventional approach by simply replicating the tax rebate with a bonus cash allowance of its own, and eating the discount itself. All of the conglomerate’s hybrids and EVs qualify, which means you’ll be able to use it on cars like the Dodge Charger Daytona, the Jeep Wagoneer S, and Jeep’s lineup of plug-ins. The discounts will only apply to existing inventory, according to Automotive News, and according to Stellantis’s websites, they expire on November 3.
Then there’s Tesla, which, on October 1st, added a $6,500 lease credit for the Model 3 and the Model Y to offset the loss of the federal rebate. It’s worth noting this credit isn’t available for either of the more affordable “Standard” versions of those cars launched yesterday. In fact, Tesla doesn’t give potential owners the option to lease that trim at all, according to its website.
Rivian is following in Tesla’s footsteps, offering a lease credit worth up to $6,500 for new owners. The offer expires at the end of the month, and only applies to a few models. From InsideEVs:
The biggest rebate of $6,500 applies to the 2025 R1S and R1T in three specific configurations: the tri-motor, the dual-motor with the Max battery pack and the Performance Upgrade, and the dual-motor with the Large battery and the Performance Upgrade. In other words, Rivian is trying to get rid of its inventory, but it’s worth noting that neither the entry-level Dual version with the Standard battery pack nor the top-spec Quad variant is eligible for any of these discounts.
That said, buyers can get $6,000 off the lease price of a 2026 R1S or R1T with the tri-motor configuration, while the 2026 R1S and R1T dual-motor with the Max battery and Performance Upgrade are eligible for a $5,000 lease bonus.
It’s not just American brands getting in on the action. BMW is offering $7,500 off its electric lineup and $5,000 off its plug-ins. This is only for vehicles purchased, not leased, and the discount ends after November 1, according to Car and Driver. Hyundai is taking what feels like a more permanent approach, slashing prices of its Ioniq 5 by up to $9,800 for the 2026 model year.
So if you’re sad you missed out on the federal credit, just know that there are still deals out there, at least for a few more weeks. Though the golden era may be behind us for now.
California Is Threatening To Shut Down Tesla’s Insurance
Tesla owners who use Tesla’s insurance are pretty upset with the service, at least according to California’s Department of Insurance. The organization announced plans last week to hold the car company’s subdivision accountable for failing “in their legal obligations to adequately handle hundreds of California automobile policyholder claims.” From the release:
The actions allege that, despite being repeatedly warned by the Department of Insurance, the Tesla Companies and State National instead chose to abandon their responsibility to consumers and persist with their non-compliant claims-handling practices, placing profits above people and flouting the law with impunity.
After continuing to receive a significant number of consumer complaints related to the handling of their automobile policyholder claims beginning in 2022, the Department of Insurance repeatedly warned the Tesla Companies and State National of the significant harm to their policyholders — largely Tesla drivers — unless immediate corrective actions were taken. Throughout numerous meetings with, correspondence between, and reports to the Department of Insurance, the companies repeatedly committed to improvements, but the number of justified consumer complaints and violations continued to mount. Instead of correcting their unlawful and egregious behavior, the companies disregarded the Department’s serious warnings and continued their misconduct, and the number of consumer complaints and the amount of legal violations have only continued to significantly increase. The companies face monetary penalties up to $5,000 for each unlawful, unfair, or deceptive act, or up to $10,000 for each such act determined to be willful.
Tesla Insurance has been in the news for years over allegedly less-than-satisfactory business practices. Reuters published a wide-ranging report back in 2023 covering the firm’s alleged inability to deliver timely communications, pay out on claims, or even pick up the phone. The CDI’s accusations seem similar:
The Department’s accusations are based on the companies’ ongoing systemic failures and willful unfair claims settlement practices including, but not limited to, the following alleged violations:
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Egregious delays in responding to policyholder claims in all steps of the claims handling process, causing financial harm, out-of-pocket expenses, potential third-party liability exposure, and distress to policyholders
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Unreasonable denials and delays in fully paying valid claims to consumers
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Failure to conduct thorough, fair, and objective investigations of claims, thus denying consumers the insurance benefits they expect
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Failure to advise policyholders of their rights to have their claims denials reviewed by the Department – a major consumer protection in California to make sure insurers are held accountable by their regulator
The CDI says Tesla Insurance has 15 days from October 3 to respond to the accusations, or else the provider could have its license to operate in the state suspended.
GM And Stellantis Could Be Out $1.1 Billion In Factory Retooling Grants
The cuts just keep on coming. Last year, the Biden administration awarded nearly $1.1 billion to GM and Stellantis to retool a trio of plants, with plans to convert them for EV and EV parts production. That money might not be coming in anymore, according to a government document seen by Reuters. From the report:
The projects are among a list of $12 billion in awards that could be canceled as the partial government shutdown persists.
Among those grants: $500 million awarded to GM to convert Lansing Grand River Assembly in Michigan to build electric vehicles; $335 million for Stellantis to convert the shuttered Belvidere Assembly Plant in Illinois to make midsize electric pickups; and $250 million for Stellantis to convert its Indiana Transmission Plant in Kokomo to produce EV components.
The possible cancellations come a week after the Energy Department announced plans to cancel $7.56 billion in financing for hundreds of energy projects that it said would not provide sufficient returns to taxpayers.
The Lansing plant currently builds the Cadillac CT4 and CT5, while the Belvidere plant hasn’t built anything since 2023, when the last-gen Cherokee went out of production.
As for why these previously earmarked funds could be canceled over the government shutdown, well, you’ll have to ask the current administration. As Reuters points out, this news comes just a week after the DOE announced plans to cut $7.5 billion in financing for various energy projects, and a week after White House budget director Russell Vought said on X that the admin would be cancelling nearly $8 billion in climate-related funding in 16 Democratic-run states. Only Belvidere falls under the States mentioned, though, so going by this Reuters report, the admin’s planned cuts could reach even farther than expected.
Nissan Could Supply Rebadged Rogue Hybrids To Ford Or Stellantis
The Nissan Rogue is a great car, and the world can use more of them. That could soon be a reality, as Rogue production may add a badge-engineered sibling wearing bodywork from one of the Big Three American automakers. A report from Automotive News claims the company is in talks with brands like Stellantis and Ford to sell an electrified crossover based on the ever-popular SUV. From the report:
The compact crossover would feature Nissan’s e-Power hybrid system, which uses a battery-powered electric motor to drive the wheels and a gasoline engine to recharge the battery.
Nissan would assemble the vehicle alongside the Rogue in Smyrna, Tenn.
Discussions include potential collaboration on electric vehicle development, said one of the people, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the discussions are private.
“It’s not a quid pro quo,” the person said, adding that a deal could happen even without an EV partnership.
While a Nissan official told Autonews there were no agreements in place right now, they did say the company “remains open to dialogue that delivers strategic, complementary market opportunities to our core model development efforts.” So that’s something.
If such a partnership does materialize, the badge-engineered, Rogue-based hybrid will likely use Nissan’s third-generation e-POWER tech, which utilizes one of the most thermally efficient engines in production right now. It’s already for sale in Europe, and it’s expected to make its first appearance in America via the Rogue next year, according to Autonews.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
This month might be the last opportunity to get a properly discounted electric car before things get really expensive. So I’m listening to Janis Joplin’s “Get It While You Can” from her 1971 album, Pearl. But instead of love, I’ll be thinking about EVs.
The Big Question
Do you think anyone will buy EVs now that the tax incentive is dead?
People buy things because they can justify it either because they really want it or it’s image /ideals or it makes sense financially. The people that are full bore Bev will keep buying new ones as long as tech improves most seem to be brand agnostic now too. For the general population if they can make them cheap and they can drive them cheap then people will buy them. A ton of people got a cheap bev lease over the last few years. I’m curious what they will do. I expect if there if worked well for them and there is a new lease deal when they turn it in they may go with that. Others I suspect will go with a cpo or different off lease vehicle. The residuals are too high on most of the leases so I doubt people will buy them out unless they are overflowing with lease returns and desperate to make a deal.
Literally my Ioniq 5 is the first car I’ve ever leased (50+). I’ve been entirely aware of leases, I just don’t like the car-buying process and don’t want to be told I have to do it again at a certain time.
When this lease runs out, we’re probably just going to lease whatever is cheap to lease at the time unless there’s a compelling vehicle to steer us off-course. I don’t think anyone has plans for a compelling vehicle in my price-range, so I’ll just see what’s available at the time.
Or, I could probably just buy an equivalent Ioniq 5 for $15k or less at the end of the lease. I already received trade-in offers from Hyundai for $23k on this thing that stickered on their lot for $52k+ when we bought it less than a year ago.
I was close to doing a lease deal but the idea of the backside concerned me too much. For the same reasons as you on top of that it worried me the guys that figured out the deals and could probably figure out how and be willing to sell it to you cheaper on return will probably leave in the slow down between. But there should be some good deals to be had when that starts. It will be interesting to watch.
I think the ionic 5 along with the ev9 or anything on the e-gmp will be the ones to look out for the batteries are so hardy it won’t matter much what people do to them. I think $15k or less is about right. What that means for the Nissians and id.4s I’m not sure but it has to under $10k. Hopefully the 500e’s show up for under $5k.
I accidentally found a “used” delivery mile incentive stripped cheap leaf. I figured 8 years relatively worry free was worth the cost. My wife likes it. It’s basically like a golf cart and likes she doesn’t have to deal with gas stations.
I believe the market of new EV buyers has mostly been satisfied. With the rebates they sucked the future sales forward. I would not surprised to see EVs relegated to a niche market.
Nope. You can’t stop the future.
The Republican Party would like to have a word with you about that comment
Only if by ‘future’ you mean 95 years ago.
The future is nuclear fusion and it’s only 20 years away.
Since most EVs are leased, every so often their owners would have to come back to the auto marketplace.
I can’t speak for everyone but in July I leased a Polestar 3 as my first EV ever. I can’t ever see myself getting back to ICE. All else being equal, the lack of maintenance is refreshing and the bottomless pool of instant torque is addictive.
I think the next phase is “EV buyers” no longer being a distinct market. It may take longer to get there than some people think, though. Part of what’s holding it back is that they’re only practical for people who can charge at home, which excludes anyone in apartments. Part of it is that there’s niches they just can’t fill well (towing, primarily). Part of it is that they’re barely wobbling in the neighborhood of price parity with gas cars. That last one’s very likely to change over the next few years, to the point that ICE won’t be very competitive across most segments. That then becomes incentive to offer a full range of vehicles, and a forcing function for apartments to offer some sort of charging (even L1 might work, but definitely L2).
Did you have to dig pretty far deep for that CalPatriass picture? It’s no 1970’s production line photo, but to have a production line photo of that is kinda wild, at least to me!
Do you think anyone will buy EVs now that the tax incentive is dead?
Depends if I find myself needing to buy a new for me car. But it’ll probably be a used PHEV
It was my impression looking at ads for used cars that the ineligible PHEV cars were advertised at the same prices dealers were advertising eligible PHEV cars for BUT those prices had the full incentive already applied. In other words that incentive was going into used car dealer pockets, not customer pockets.
My first EV will probably be an old Leaf, hopefully something better than that hooptie The Autopian bought. Even if it only gets 30 – 40 miles on a charge it could do a lot of short trips around here until it becomes useless.
Stellantis is not an American company, and its products should stop being referred to as American products. They are no more American than Toyota or Honda. Chrysler, Jeep, Ram, Dodge etc are French/Italian. In fact, for nearly 30 years, with a brief exception (2007-09) when the Chrysler group was controlled by a private equity firm, Chrysler has been a foreign owned entity. Does your Ram-pickup-driving MAGA friend/co-worker/parent know this?
If you want to say Big Three American, it would be GM, Ford, and Tesla.
<steps down from soapbox, knowing nobody cares>
I remember when they became FCA and people started saying The Big 2.5. Somehow they got even less American since then, but it went back to the Big 3.
“The Lansing plant currently builds the Cadillac CT4 and CT5”
Sure, but the entire 2nd shift got laid off when they stopped building the Camero. The location of this plant (downtown along the river) make it deserving of brownfield redevelopment dollars no matter the product.
I consider Lansing to be my hometown as much as anyplace I’ve lived at is, and I’m proud of the part my scuzzy little city played in automotive history, especially with it’s connection to R.E. Olds and Oldsmobile; there’s still a neighborhood called REO Town! I’d be sad if they (I don’t live there anymore) lost their last assembly plant, especially since it was an Oldsmobile plant when it was built. All of that said, Lansing should look to its future. MSU is right next door in East Lansing, the state government is there, is in a great location for accessing Grand Rapid, Detroit, and Ann Arbor. I always enjoyed its music and art scene, although that may be due to my own quirks and preferences. Lansing needs to continue take advantage of having the Grand River running through downtown, and if that means taking down an auto plant, so be it.
It is actually not the last assembly plant in the city, because Lansing Delta township assembly is technically the city because the land was annexed. Workers there get to pay the city income tax even though the land there is not connected to the rest of the city. It would be way cheaper to replace Grand River assembly with a green field factory outside of the city in former farm land. There is even a “megasite” ready to the northwest of the city they could buy.
Grand River assembly is upriver from where the Red cedar river meets, and on a curve so there is river on two sides of the property. There is also a 100 year old abandoned coal power plant that would have to be removed if the property were to be converted into apartments. It might be pretty nice except for the railroad track running through, but I am pretty sure that developers would need to get more than $500M in public money to convert the land to residential.
A real vote of confidence in its long-term value.
Re: EV discounting, most of these companies weren’t turning a profit on their EVs as it was. These discounts are unsustainable (much like companies eating the tariff costs), and I think it’s telling that businesses are so concerned about the economy that they’re taking big hits to their bottom line to avoid spooking consumers. People were already pushing back on the price of cars after the COVID price gouging, and another big price shock would be disastrous. I have to believe this is all trying to kick the can down the road until there’s an adult in charge again.
Why would Ford or Stellantis need a rebadged Nissan hybrid? Both have their similar sized CUVs, and both have their own hybrid systems (Stellantis might have 3, or even more, like the one in the new Cherokee, the one from the PSA PHEVs, the 48V hybrid that can be found in Corsas and 5008s too…).
This is the last year for the Escape as Ford is converting the factory to make their new “Model T Moment” EV. The Bronco Sport is more upmarket ($32K +), made in Mexico and subject to a 25% tariff.
Stellantis has the Compass for Jeep but it is made in Canada and subject to a 25% tariff and has no hybrid opton. Dodge had the Hornet – which has been a dismal failure, was made in Italy, and has been cancelled. The Cherokee starts at $35K, is made in Mexico, and subject to a 25% tariff.
The Rogue is a solid vehicle, in the right price range (less than $30K), made in the USA, and Nissan has extra capacity. Rebadging it could be a cheap way to get a cheap US manufactured CUV as a tariff hedge.
It’s very nice of Nissan to try to help improve Ford and Stellantis build quality and reliability.
I’ll take “Sentences I never expected to hear” for $1000, Alex.
Especially since they come with that fabulous transmission that will not be named.
The Nissan ePower has no transmission.
Why does it amaze people that the prices were lowered after tax credits were eliminated?
Econ 101.
Might not be a great vehicle, but Dodge desperately needs product and the Rogue Hybrid would fill an important gap. Would probably sell better than the Hornet, anyway
Has the Rogue kept the optional third row? I don’t think it has. Had it, it would have made a pretty good option for Dodge to use as a real Journey replacement. I would have to imagine there are a number of middle class families out there looking for a Journey replacement, showing up to the CDJR dealer to be offered a comparatively tiny Hornet, or a way too damn expensive Durango.
Dodge, make a few visual tweaks, shoehorn in a third row, and you’ve got yourself some instant sales.
I don’t know about the Rogue, but the X-Trail hybrid can be bought with 7 seats. But wouldn’t it be still too small to be a good Journey successor?
Looking it up, the Rogue doesn’t offer a 3rd row for this generation.
I would probably be a little too small, but it’s better than nothing.
There are people selling re-painted zombie Hummels on Etsy that out-sell the Hornet.
The Rogue powertrain sounds intriguing, but how a Nissallantis attracts any buyers is beyond me.
The same way they’ve been doing it for the last 20 years… sub-prime loans no other dealer finance department would touch.
Talked to a head of a good-sized chunk of dealerships the other day.
What do you think people are paying on those 7-8 year loans? Yes, even from a “brand name” “auto mile” car dealer, 20-22% is not uncommon.
Talked to him about how many loan modifications they’re making. They don’t want to repo the cars as it’s too many considering inventory is accumulating all while the manufacturer continues to stuff the channel. They’d rather find ways to “make it work” with the buyer for now so the vehicle doesn’t make their way back into their possession.
—
My takeaway? Dude certainly ran things differently than his dad did.
Check yourself!
-Mitsubishi
You’re right, and look at where it got them.
The US’s top manufacturer of very chromey CUVs?
Seems like things worked out just fine.
The vast majority of vehicle buyers have no idea where their vehicle is made, what is under the hood, or the ins and outs of manufacturing partnerships.
They care about looks, size, price, and features (like carplay and heated seats)
Tesla Insurance seems like an oxymoron to me. Or at least you’d have to be a moron to get a policy from it. You can claim to ignore all the unsavory things about Tesla, but you’d have to be totally indoctrinated to believe an insurance policy from that company could be anything but trouble. Hell, it’s hard to get a real insurance company to pay for shit.
I know that it’s going to be rough in the short term for EV sales, and I’ve been somewhat reluctant to believe EV is way. But with a number of sub-40k EVs finally approaching in segments that people actually buy, I think we’re going to see some serious adoption coming over the next 5 years. Provided Nissan and GM can actually make money on them (and that they actually build them in the sorts of volume that matter), the Leaf and Equinox EV are actually a pretty good value in a world where an ICE crossover costs basically the same amount of money.
I just got back from a 1500 mile round trip to visit my kid in college over a long weekend. Despite the single extremely slow (62 kW) charger in town, the trip was a non-issue for an EV road trip in an extremely rural part of the country. When I jump back in my ICE vehicle, it’s hard to not notice the non-linearity of the powertrain and the jankiness of the transmission. I would have a hard time going back to ICE full time after the EV experience. I also do not miss gas stations. Charging at home is just so much nicer when you can just jump in the car with a full tank of electrons everyday. I think the key is just getting people into their first EV…new or used… The experience is just so much better, you find ways to make it work instead of excuses about why it won’t work. My wish list for my next EV…Just a regular car with analog gauges and knobs for the HVAC… I feel like the biggest drawback of EVs right now is how loaded up they are with tech, when in reality they could fill a very real gap in simple/affordable transportation…
This was my experience. ICE cars feel broken after you get used to an EV.
So you are going to buy a Slate?
Not a fan of EV but with so many EV owners going back to ICE I don’t think that is a good sign.
I don’t own one, but have a fair number of hours in EVs and totally agree on the driving experience. For me the biggest eye opener was moving thru a parking lot the for the first time. It’s amazing how much hurkajerk clutches and/or torque converters generate at low speeds and when changing directions, broken is a good descriptor.
So true. My wife’s Acura feels primitive compared to my Bolt as do the rental cars I drive for work. When it comes time to replace her car it likely won’t be an EV but we will be looking for a hybrid with a strong electric motor that gives a much more EV like experience.
My Bolt will only be replaced with another EV. There is no chance we go back to being an all ICE household.
Along those lines, I refer to the Volt as the gateway drug for BEVs. It gives you just enough of a taste of the benefits to want a real one. When I’m on a trip and stopped to pee/stretch/etc and there’s DC fast chargers right there that I can’t use. When I hit highway speeds and the quick acceleration settles into responsive but mediocre. When it kicks in the ICE and is no longer quiet.
Yeah, I also have a 1st Gen Volt, that I love driving in EV mode around town. I was so annoyed when it made me run the engine for 1/2 a tank because I basically used no fuel for a year. Gateway drug is a good way to put it, because it’s just a taste of EV driving that leaves you wanting more (power, range, etc…).
There’s a serious convergence of poor build quality & bad business decision jokes with a merger of Stellantis and Nissan.
Seems like a perfect fit.
In the spirit of Rich Hall’s Sniglets (yes, I’m that old), I coined the term drainergy years ago to describe how the whole could somehow be less than the sum of its parts.
Stellantis and Nissan. The corporate equivalents of those people we all know who just can’t ever get a relationship right. I wonder which one will show up on my doorstep looking to couch surf first.
I will continue to buy EVs, and I hope others will too. Sure the rebate was nice, but the experience of owning an EV is totally worth it and I never want to go back to petroleum fueled vehicles again if I can help it. I’m not against people buying gassers or diesels or hybrids, but once I tasted the sweetness of EV ownership, I left ICE behind and I haven’t regretted it for a second.
I’d be 100% on board if virtually every EV didn’t require such a depedence on screens, in addition to a lot of “nontraditional” control surfaces.
There are certain unique things that EVs should do by their very nature — regen braking, one-pedal operation, etc. But a lot of manufacturers have gone a little too far with some of the other stuff.
I think the EV credits should have been tapered, not killed (same with any government social engineering or tax policy). I’m sure the last couple quarters of this year will look bad, but I believe long-term demand will stay strong. I just hope the manufacturers can give up all that profit for a little longer to wean people off the rebates…which again, should have been tapered. Now all the burden is on the manufacturers and consumers instantly.
I agree with you about the rebates, and I feel the same way about petroleum industry rebates, which should have been phased out decades ago.
Some EVs are better than others wrt controls. I’m pretty happy with the mix of tactile, knob and screen-based controls in my Nissan Ariya and even in my Polestar 2 (although the Nissan does it better). I specifically didn’t get the Volvo C30 because of the all-screen interface.
EVs are just full of junk tech nobody needs. Not every EV needs to be bathed in RGB LEDs, have screens the size of Mount Rushmore, and have enough leather to stitch 50 cows back together. These things are just too expensive, and automakers are justifying the insane prices they’re charging by trying to make every car compete with the S Class.
Not every EV needs big screens. Not every EV needs self driving tech. Not every EV has to have leather, power everything, and sparkly lights.
I keep saying this and getting downvoted elsewhere, but the fist company to realize this and make a cheap, reasonably comfortable EV will repeat Ford’s success with the Model T.
I’m really hoping that the elimination of the tax credit will have the side effect of a lot more companies making basic, simple EVs without all the extra tech to make them “cheaper”. The simplicity and basic functionality of a 30 year old vehicle (plus modern safety stuff) combined with a simple EV powertrain would be great.
You mean like a Leaf or a Bolt?
The Bolt is gone, and the Leaf got more unnecessary tech this generation. They can be bought used, but that’s not really the point.
Every one got used to the luxury crap, so cars that don’t have a lot of it die, or get burdened with it in newer generations. The only thing that’s going to make the compromise appealing to most people is price.
I suspect the motivation to get into the “luxury” quality was required in part to get the NVH of the rest of the car to the point where they would match the NVH of an EV drivetrain.
What? The new Bolt was literally officially launched today. It looks exactly like an car(s). If it was slipped into a lineup of Yarises, Feistas, Versa Notes and other An Cars from the past 20 years, you’d have a hard time picking it out.
Again:
Slate
The Slate isn’t for sale and likely never will be.
Which is sad cause it seems the perfect shirt distance vehicle
The new Bolt is the same price with an extra 100 mile range and way more content. The Leaf has 300 miles of range for $30K.
A 150 mile range EV for $27,500 will not sell today. 10 years ago they might have had a chance. Today they need to cut at least $10K off that price to make it make any sort of sense.
Reminds me of the book title : Sometimes A Great Notion, which was also a great movie. I agree that the Bolt/Leaf duo are getting us to the price point/range sweet spot. And for a few more weeks Hyundai wants to sell me an ionic 5 for 32,000 + -. Can only imagine what the people who bought one for 40 something are feeling right now. Ouch
I bought my used 2017 Bolt in 2021 for $24K. I could have got a new 2019 Bolt for $18K in early 2020. Next year it looks like I could get a new 2026 Bolt for about $25K.
I guess I could get all wrapped up in how I overpaid or missed a short window to buy a deeply discounted Bolt but I didn’t need another car in 2020. In 2021 I did need a car when my wife took a new job that required a 50 mile commute and we selected the best option at the time even though new and used cars were in short supply and way overpriced.
I was OK with the price when I bought it and it does the job I bought it for.
You win some, you lose some. Can’t get paralyzed worrying about if something I’ve going to buy is going to go a sale at some point in the future nor buy things I don’t need just because they are on sale.
Same. Although I missed forced induction whine, so I bought a supercharged PWC. It’s a toy that’ll get used a few weekends a summer. Not a daily driver. It’ll probably get towed with my EV. Why? The EV is a fantastic tow vehicle and doesn’t have to get wet launching.
I hope people continue to buy new EV’s. I need people to buy or lease new EV’s so that I can scoop them up cheap as a 3 year old used car after the huge depreciation hit happens. Frankly, I don’t understand why anyone buys a new EV or PHEV, but people make dumb financial decisions all the time. Maybe the sunset of the incentives will make the depreciation curve more reasonable.
That’s definitely true now, but 3-5 years ago there weren’t really any good used options. You could either get low range car similar to a Leaf with a bad battery, or a used Tesla. Hyundai had some nice cars, but they didn’t figure out how to keep the smoke inside the charge controller until about ’22 so they were a risky gamble.
I did a 2014 Volt in 2017, and then a 2021 330e in 2023. But yes, they are PHEV and not full EV’s. I expect the 330e replacement will be a full EV.
As an owner of a CPO EV I approve of this message haha
Financing.
I’ve been comparing/contrasting used vs. new, and financing eats the savings difference when financed long term. Not everyone is cash liquid enough to buy up front or on short terms.
I can save 15-20k buying a truck with 100-150k km on it, but I also have to factor in that financing will eat half of that (new is at 0%, most used is sitting at 5.99 to 8% in Canada right now), and I now have a truck with 5-7 years worth of my driving on the odometer from the start.
Yeah, sometimes it can make sense. Trucks are certainly one of those cases because they retain their value so well. My first new car in a long time was a RAM 1500 in 2021 to tow our camper, because a new one with my supplier discount was $1500 more than a 2019 with 30,000 miles on it (same equipment). That was a no brainer to buy new.
My ’22 EV6 Wind will be heading to auction soon I just returned that lease a little early to get the Audi Sportback Etron while is was a good deal ($120 a month less that the Kia)
There are/were at lot of lease deals out there that were worth considering for sure, especially when they knocked $7500 off the capitalized cost (and even more in a state that had additional rebates). There were a lot of times where leasing new makes much more sense than buying used.
I have found my EV6 for sale in Northern Utah, I’m from Southern California.
It is at a Nissan dealer, which I find interesting that another Kia dealership didn’t want it…
My lease end value (buyout?) was approx. $33k. It’s for sale for $26k. I suspect the Nissan store paid $21-22k for it.
I still have limited access to it via the Kia app, I can see on a map where it is, and I get notified when the doors are left open.
When I get my final bill I’ll delete the app along with the 100 or so pictures I took when I turned it in showing zero damage and brand new tires.
I say the same thing – but about every car. On the other hand I can see leasing and EV at some of the current prices. A coworker just leased an Equinox EV for $199 per month. I leased a Spark EV back in 2016 for $99 per month – less than putting gas in the Prius it replaced.
Regarding Tesla insurance, no one should expect Musk to do the right thing. It’s hard enough getting SF or LM to pay your claims, and they at least pretend to be useful.
As for the credits, they won’t matter much when EVs are developed to the point where the cost, range, and charging times make them a no-brainer.
But I do wonder if the current “administration” will offer tax incentives or cash on the hood for Bro-dozers with defeated diesel emission controls.
According to Nissan, the Gen 3 e-Power system is running a dedicated engine that is designed around a fixed operating point (makes sense for a range extender) and is using a whole bag of party tricks, like lean combustion, EGR, and waste heat recovery to hit 50% brake thermal efficiency. That’s wild good for any ICE engine, but especially a small displacement spark ignited engine. I’m fascinated about the waste heat recovery claim, because typically that would mean an Organic Rankine Cycle system powered by the engine exhaust, but that would be a Big Deal (and a lot of hardware = expense) which doesn’t seem to be evident in any of the material available about the car. I wonder if they’re using engine coolant to heat the cabin, and condition the battery, which, while true, is a little bit hand-wavy. It has to be something significant, since they credit the WHR for closing a significant chunk of the BTE gap between their 42% starting point and the 50% they are claiming for this system. Anyone know more that they can share?
Another bit that I’m curious how they got working is the (very, lambda = 2, i.e. AFR = 29) lean burn combustion system. That means they can’t use 3 way catalysts for emissions control. But I don’t see any mention of lean NOx catalysis / urea SCR in any of the material… I wonder how they manage cycle NOx?
Exhaust heat recovery has been around for a few years now. Ford and Toyota use it on some of their Hybrids and PHEVs mainly to provide quicker engine warm up and thus be able to shut back down quicker too, leading to shorter engine on cycles and better cold weather MPG.
How is that implemented? Is it just an exhaust-to-coolant heat exchanger to warm up the coolant faster, or are they doing something more exotic?
Yup just a heat exchanger in the exhaust post Cat and of course some plumbing. The other thing is Exhaust Heat Recovery does qualify for a CAFE bonus, in addition to any actual increase in the MPG on the standardized tests.
Fundamentally, the tax credits increased the prices of cars. There was very little reason not to just increase margins when the credit would just bring the final price back down to something more palatable. With the credits gone, the automakers will adjust pricing down, same as pretty much all automakers did as their eligibility expired in the olden days.
You must be driving different Nissan Rogues than the three that I have had as rentals this year. Stupendously meh would be the most charitable description I could give of the things. Hertz seems to be buying them by the thousand.
And Tesla Insurance? The mind boggles at how horrible that must be.
I recently had one as a rental and it sure was a car. I liked it: it was comfortable, easy to use, and roomy.
I like my daily drivers to be as wildly inappropriate for normal car activities as possible. So when I have a road trip or need some utility, I rent. I’ve had a few Rogues over the last year from Hertz as well. Boring yet perfectly adequate, which is what I believe most normal cars are. It was quiet, got pretty good fuel economy, and had lots of room inside. I get all the hate for how terrible Nissan has been recently but I think the Rogue is fine. Not F I N E fine. Just normal fine.
I found them to drive quite poorly, have uncomfortable seats, and an absolutely infuriating user interface. It’s basic, completely uninspiring and uninteresting transportation, and even among transportation appliances there are just so many better options. Life’s too short, IMHO.
I guess I’m used to driving Japanese commodity cars, because the Rogue just made sense to me.
Anybody dumb enough to sign up for Tesla insurance gets what they deserve. Honestly what else would you expect? Good customer service? Honest business practices? Good coverage in case your “self driving car” does an oopsie?
A free burger once a year at their diner?
More likely that fossilized hot dog they had. Urk.
Oh man it’s crazy that Russ Vought (not an elected official, but an appointed asshat) is now wielding power that is not constitutionally his to cut funding for American manufacturing while trying to claim the administration is pro American manufacturing.
If there aren’t mass arrests of everyone even remotely involved in this current circus when it’s all over I will never believe in anything again.
You still believe in things? What’s your secret?
I don’t currently, but I have hope I may yet.
If we survive, the Nuremburg 2.0 is going to be LIT.
‘If’ is far too uncertain.
1,199 days to go.
There weren’t last time. Why should this time be any different?
Exactly. Then there was the little Supreme Court ruling that said the president is immune from prosecution for anything done in office. They have essentially made the US President a king.
Tesla has an insurance company, and people use it? That’s unfathomable to me.
As for EV’s, I think people will continue to buy them. The EV, at least for now, is a much better proposition for homeowners than renters who don’t have a garage in which to charge a car overnight. The tax credit is a relatively small hit to people with real estate, especially as the average new vehicle price continues climbing into comical territory and financing terms grow to apocalyptic durations.
Having recently plugged a few different models into my insurance while shopping for both cars and insurance, I threw a Model 3 in there (just idle curiosity–I don’t own one and wasn’t looking to) and the rates are super high through Progressive and Geico. The rates were around the same as the Mercedes EQS, which is wild, given that it has a 6-figure MSRP.
I suspect the Tesla-branded insurance is significantly cheaper (probably because of all the problems listed above). That’s the reason people use it.
It doesn’t surprise me much that the Model 3 costs a lot to insure, it’s a quiet high-performance car that’s somewhat accessible and advertised to the general public as a safe appliance, so you get a terrible mix of speed, perception of speed and driving prowess (mainly the lack thereof). Especially in this era, most normal people would buy the similarly-priced Model Y, and only those concerned with performance and style get the 3. That means lots of excitable young men, and high statistics for at-fault accidents and traffic infractions.
Compared to the EQS, which is a boring-looking luxury car for old people.
Something similar happened with my most recent car purchase, I got the Boxster because insurance for the midlife-crisis roadster is half that of the young-enthusiast BRZ.
I don’t think it was a case of Model 3 vs Model Y, because they were similarly high rates. I think it’s a case of Tesla promoting “full self-driving” and people thinking they should let the car handle things. But I’m not an insurance actuary, so I have no idea what data drove this. I was also shocked to find that an EV6 was cheaper to insure than a Niro PHEV, so I suspect there is a lot of behind-the-scenes math I don’t know about.
That EV6 vs Niro is very interesting and not one I would’ve guessed in a million years.
There is for sure a lot of behind-the-scenes work to their algorithms, and they’re not required to have any transparency or consistency.
I wonder if it’s because the PHEV has both methods of energy and they are also most likely to catch on fire, which is really odd to me.
Maybe. I was also able to insure a RAV4 Prime for a little less than the Niro, but maybe Toyota is less likely to catch fire than Kia.
Fellow Boxster driver here. Have you been contacted by Porsche on using/buying their branded insurance?
I’ve looked and it is attractive as I can choose a set rate or pay-per-mile. My wife and I both work from home. The Boxster gets about 2500 miles per year put on it. The wife’s car is more “daily driver” but still only about 3500. So it would be a big rate cut but I’m not sure if the savings negate the discount for having home and auto on the same policy so I haven’t gone for it. Also have not researched it to see if it’s actually any good but it does at least state that any accidents get repaired with genuine parts and an authorized Porsche center. Which I’ve had problems getting approved in the past.
All in all, I don’t know that I want manufacturer branded insurance but it is something I’ve thought about.
I haven’t, but I have a 986, so I haven’t dealt with Porsche dealers at all other than getting some trim clips, so that’s probably why. It’s my year-round daily driver, so I probably wouldn’t benefit from any specialty insurance like pay-per-mile.
IIRC, Tesla insurance (via not-Tesla) used to be extremely high due to many reasons such as part non-availability, only certain shops could work on them, and highly integrated assemblies that are expensive individually. At the time of launch I think Tesla insurance was often 1/2 to 1/3 the cost. (I guess you get what you pay for)
High repair costs and parts availability for sure drive up the cost of insurance for Tesla’s vehicles.
Doesn’t GM also have it’s own insurance? I really have no idea why you would want insurance from the manufacturer that just seems like problems waiting to happen like voiding your warranty because they didn’t like you getting a speeding ticket.
GM insurance just sounds like skipping the middle man on Lexis Nexus.
Yes. It is for connected cars and uses vehicle data to determine your rate. Available in about 20 states.