By and large, I don’t get carsick. I’ve rarely had problems reading on a long drive, or flicking through Twitter while friends are at the wheel. But every so often, it hits me. It’s a twisted, sick, queasy feeling that leaves me uptight, anxious, and wanting to puke. What I’ve noticed is that whenever it happens, one thing seems to be the same. I’m in a Toyota Camry Hybrid, with an Uber driver at the wheel.
It’s an interesting phenomenon, and by interesting, I mean stressful and annoying. It’s not something that occurs every time under those conditions. But 99% of the time, if I’m queasy in the back seat, it’s a Camry Hybrid doing Uber.
What’s causing this? I have a theory. The Camry Hybrid, as the name suggests, has an electric motor assisting the internal combustion engine. One of the main benefits of electric motors is that they deliver maximum torque at an instant, right from 0 rpm and up. It’s quite unlike an internal combustion engine that needs to rev higher to produce maximum torque.
That torque delivery is why EVs are so good at giving you that instant push in the back when you touch the throttle. As soon as the electricity hits the motor coils, that motor is thrusting the car forward. An electric motor often only make up a small amount of the hybrid drivetrain’s total output. However, they’re excellent at providing low-down torque near-instantly.
How does this make me car sick? Well, a lot of Uber drivers with Camry Hybrids tend to have a very unique way of driving. They don’t drive up to a certain speed limit and just hold the car there. Instead, they seem to drive up to the speed limit, and then roll off the accelerator. Then they pulse the throttle on and off regularly to keep bumping the car up to that speed. Every time they tap the throttle, the instant-on torque from the electric motor gives you a little shove in the back. And again. And again. You’re sort of gently getting rocked back and forth in an unpleasant, nauseating motion.
I find the problem is at its worst when being driven on straight roads with moderate to heavy traffic. The driver will pulse the throttle up to speed until they get too close to the car ahead of them, then they’ll back off a bit, and start the cycle again when they get more space. Suburban rat runs are also bad, due to the many accelerations and decelerations involved in weaving through those streets.
It bears noting that this isn’t a rare thing, either. The Camry Hybrid is one of the most popular cars for Uber in Australia. Drivers prize the car for its fuel economy and perceived reliability as a Toyota product. (Personally, I think they’re pretty solid cars, but I will say it’s incredibly difficult to change the headlight bulbs in one. It took us an HOUR.)
I haven’t had this problem with other hybrids. I’ve spent plenty of time riding around in Toyota Priuses and Honda Insights and never had an issue, though those were mostly driven by friends. Similarly, I have a friend who owns a Camry Hybrid, and he seems to be able to drive it perfectly smoothly. He’s even an Uber driver, but he has a relaxed, laid-back driving style.
I think the problem is a combination of things. The instant-on torque of the electric motor is an enabling factor. The throttle pedal calibration of the Camry Hybrid likely plays a role as well. Combine those with an erratic, rushing, bumper-hugging driving style that uses many repetitive throttle inputs, and hurrah! – you’re making a vomit milkshake.
Indeed, the fact I haven’t experienced this problem in other cars is telling. Admittedly, I haven’t been driven around in many EVs, but I have been in a ton of other hybrids without issue, even though they’ve all got the same potential for instant-on torque. As stated, I think it’s that magic, terrible combination of the Camry Hybrid’s throttle calibration and a certain kind of pedaling style typical of a driver in a hurry.
There’s not much I can really do to avoid this problem. I’ve tried looking out the windows and doing whatever I can to settle myself, but nothing really works. I guess I could cancel on every Camry Hybrid I get on Uber, but it would probably lead to my account getting disabled in short order. I’ll probably just have to deal with it until natural attrition sees the offending Camry Hybrids drop out of the Uber fleet. I have a suspicion that the problem is more with earlier models, with later versions having a smoother torque curve.
What I really want to know is this: am I crazy? Am I imagining this problem, or is this as real as the scourge of male shoppers on Instacart, the inevitability of a blue shell appearing as you’re about to win your Mario Kart race, and the very definite existence of Bigfoot? I’ve been trying to air this story for years, and it’s only now at The Autopian that I’ve had the chance to put this issue under the microscope. Please, sound off and tell me: are there hybrids or EVs that are making you queasy?
Image credits: Toyota, Uber, Google Via Screenshot
I think their slogan is Emesis Uber Alles.
Personally, I think they’re pretty solid cars, but I will say it’s incredibly difficult to change the headlight bulbs in one. It took us an HOUR.
Those aren’t LEDs?
A surprising number of modern vehicles still have traditional headlights. My 2019 Kia Niro EV is the top trim but doesn’t have LED main headlights, those only came on the “launch edition” for whatever reason.
Yeah but its a hybrid. I thought those went all out on efficency.
My example is an EV so it should go even further. Just remember, automaker IS you! If their product planning and research has shown they can get away with saving on a component, they will. Automakers will choose to skimp on things that saves them a few cents per vehicle, LED headlight assemblies are many dollars more expensive than conventional. They may offer them on a higher trim though.
So use the same assembly but with a LED bulb and modify the headlight out idiot light circuit to work with the LED instead of adding one of those stupid energy wasting resistors.
I hope you will appreciate a long answer!
I’m an engineer(not in automotive), but my last boss worked for a long time at an OEM for automotive parts and so has shared a lot of insight into these things.
First, from an efficiency standpoint, using LEDs in the low/high beams barely makes a dent in overall consumption. Reducing 40W to 8W is a nice percent reduction, but headlights are only used maybe 20% of the time(DRLs are a different matter, lower power and simpler and on all the time, there it makes a lot of sense to use LEDs). Saving 32W 20% of the time is so minuscule when considering that a 100hp electric motor use 72kW at full power— nearly 2000 times the power of the set of incandescent bulbs. There are so many other components and design choices that can cheaply improve efficiency by a much larger factor. So LED headlights are really mainly a consumer preference, style and longevity/reduced maintenance choice. They may or may not perform better from a functionality/safety standpoint and it is something I can’t really speak to.
Second, LED “bulbs” are generally not simple drop-in replacement to a traditional projector assembly. It is possible to do it, but there is a fair amount of engineering effort to make them work right, because traditional bulb technology produces light in a very different manner- functioning as a 360° point source or line, vs LED where the individual diodes produce light as a planar source. Also complicating things is that LEDs are sensitive to heat build up, even though they produce much less waste heat than other light sources it’s a critical consideration for longevity. To my point above, I have LED bulbs retrofitted into a car and it’s not possible to get them focused perfectly to meet oem spec.
Lastly, it comes back to cost. Because of those engineering hurdles, drop-in LED replacements are at least 10x the cost of regular bulbs. At that point it’s actually cheaper in most cases to have a dedicated assembly, where the cost is easier to mitigate with design choices and so an LED assembly might only be a few dollars more than the traditional assembly.
At the end of it all, automotive OEMs are cheap bastards and also have a lot of very good engineers to make complex design and cost tradeoffs. And as much as I prefer LED headlights- they really are mostly a consumer preference.
P.S. Many people believe that the bright white light used in LEDs because of the premium association is actually worse for both drivers of the vehicles and others on the road.
Thank you for taking the time to put together such a comprehensive answer. I understand there are some challenges involved for what might be dubious benefits. That hasn’t stopped companies like BMW from making blindingly bright laser headlights with GPS road tracking, Terminator IR camera vision and auto dimming (for other drivers only – pedestrians are just screwed) for even more dubious benefits.
https://www.bmwakron.com/bmw_laser_lights—-bmw-dealership-near-me.html
From an efficiency standpoint you make a good cheap bastard argument for why the resistor is there in LED bulbs instead of revamping the system for resistorless LEDs. While I agree the efficiency is not much of a gain on the individual level I do recall there was a counterargument when DRLs first came out why were a bad idea. The energy in fuel consumed by those bulbs added up over hundreds of millions of cars. Those savings add up today too. Even nursery nightlights are using LEDs despite their trivial power draw. 64W is also 64W even if its on only 20% of the time. That’s 64W that could go into running the HVAC or something else.
(FWIW automotive halogen headlamps have a draw of 55W/bulb):
https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/YatManTsui.shtml
traditional bulb technology produces light in a very different manner- functioning as a 360° point source or line, vs LED where the individual diodes produce light as a planar source.
True but even cheap aftermarket LED bulbs can work well enough in OEM housings designed for halogens. I bought a pair of cheap aftermarket LEDs myself and did not find much difference in the illumination pattern, so little in fact I had a hard time seeing a difference in pattern, only in brightness. My main issue with most aftermarket bulbs is they are made to be so much brighter than halogens. Better to keep the brightness the same and focus instead on normalizing the illumination pattern.
Color? LEDs can be whatever color you want. 2700K incandescent, 3000-3200K @ 90+ CRI is totally doable. Bright white light from LEDs is a choice, not a limitation. As a bonus LEDs don’t make UV light which damages the acrylic housings (the sun does though so unless you are always parked inside and only drive at night this isn’t worth much). Conversely don’t make much heat which is useful for melting snow and ice that might have built up on the housing in some climates.
Now as to the longevity. It’s one thing to have a $0.10 halogen bulb that needs replacing every few years if a mindless yokel can swap it out in 10 minutes with basic hand tools. It’s another if it takes a skilled mechanic with $$$ specialty tools an hour or two just to access the bulbs which is sounds like some cars do. In such cases I’m pretty sure even a frugal customer would pay a small premium to avoid that. I would.
Anecdotally I have some tangentially related experience in the halogen vs LED battle. My Mazda 5 had a bad low idle shake which was a known issue with that generation of 3s and 5s. I put up with it for years as it took me quite a while to even diagnose the problem. I checked the usual suspects – throttle body, spark plugs, vacuum lines, ECU reset, all that to no avail. Of course there is no way to adjust to the idle without a $$$ custom tune which I’m sure would have been flagged at my next smog check.
After a long time and reading many forum posts by similarly frustrated Mazda owners I found the problem was caused by the draw of the brake lamps but only while in drive. It did not shake in park, it did not shake in drive with the parking brake on and foot off the pedal. Pulling the brake light fuse made the problem go away. There was no known cure.
Eventually I realized LED brake lamps were a thing. I bought some and put them in. Bingo! My guess is corrosion or undersized wiring was causing the halogen lamps to vampirically draw power from something else in the shared circuit. The lower draw of the LEDs was tolerable. That fix was well worth the $7 the bulbs cost.
Kia and Hyundai have their own fair share of engineering issues, but one thing I appreciate is in both vehicles I own from them, no tools are needed to change any of the halogen bulbs. Even headlight aiming can be done easily.
It’s very true that LED color is totally optional- it’s just that carmakers seem to have assumed or done research and found that car buyers think the 5000k LEDs look more premium.
I believe that a pretty high percentage of cars from the last 10 years have LED brake lights and DRLs, for the technical reasons and safety advantages.
Maybe Autopian should have a feature that is a live engineering debate/discussion with two people who know a lot but not necessarily the entire picture haha
Maybe Autopian should have a feature that is a live engineering debate/discussion with two people who know a lot but not necessarily the entire picture haha
Isn’t that what we’re doing here? 😉
Unless the rear taillight housing magically changes shape when you aren’t looking and makes it impossible to fit the bulb holder back in. Then it’s two hours with a hammer cursing at Korean engineers.
I don’t get carsick – but I do get quite annoyed at Uber/Lyft/Taxi drivers who use the accelerator and brake pedals as “On/Off” switches.
Unbeknownst to us at the time, that was one of the advantages of old taxis with worn brakes, slipping transmissions, and engines in need of a tune up. Even with the all-or-nothing driving styles, those cars simply couldn’t start or stop fast enough to bother you.
Why in gods’ names do they do that? Apparently it’s not just in America. Did someone once tell a cabby that this saves gas or something?
Taxi drivers are proof that “practice makes perfect” is not correct
Absolutely. Practice only reinforces whichever behaviour you are practicing. The only time practice makes perfect is if you are practicing perfect application of the process. This is the reason that just because someone has been doing something for much of their life does not mean they do it correctly or even understand the correct way to do it.
Hybrids can have a pulsing effect if they are not programmed well enough to tie the gas motor back in when it starts up.
I doubt that was the problem though.
I’d say 9 out of 10 uber/lyfts that I’ve been in have had a pretty shitty driver. Most of them just think they are better than every other driver on the road since they are driving all day, but the reality is they are just way too aggressive and drive too fast because they are trying to get you out of the car and onto their next fare. I had one driver who evidently couldn’t just let me sit in silence talk about his classification system for each type of driver of different car brands. It was somewhat amusing since he himself was a walking stereotype of the car he was driving (A GMC Yukon).
I have never had this issue, but, growing up, we always had to be careful about what my younger brother ate on long trips, because he got car sick in the 3rd row of our Lumina APV several times, along with a few close calls.
Well, probably since it was a Lumina…
When the CVT on my last car was slipping the forward clutch, it would mimic the gas pedal pumping feel. One person refused to ride in it, everyone else just dealt with the car sickness. Eventually enough friction material wore away that it just slipped without the jerking sensation. It still took over 10k miles to get bad enough for a dealer to diagnose.
It’s a good thing that CVT was under warranty!
CVT: Continuous Vomit Threat
I also used to think that certain car backseats made me nauseous.
But then I realized that I’m getting older and that nearly all backseats make me nauseous now. Same with a lot of theme park rides.
I desperately need to get to Cedar Point before it’s too late.
UGH, Cedar Point. I loved it as a kid and young adult. Haven’t been in years. When I told my husband that I wanted to go this summer, he reminded me that I almost vomited after rolling down a hill with my daughter. 🙁
Yeah that’s what I’m worried about lol.
I took my son to the fair a few months ago and bought us the all-you-can-ride bracelets. I was pale and queasy after 2 rides. He was having a blast.
I always drive on trips because I can’t ride in a car and read or look at my phone for more than a couple seconds without getting sick.
I also can’t read or look at my phone in the car, but that’s been a lifelong issue for me.
I think that’s one of the reasons I’ve always been interested in cars. My focus was on looking out the windows at other cars and the landscape. Or taking in all the details of the interior. I didn’t have other options, haha.
It’s literally impossible to make me carsick…I’ve ridden with some truly horrific drivers and have driven/rode shotgun on a race track countless times and never once felt queasy.
That said, I feel so bad for the passengers of people who drive like that. They’re the ones that you overtake on the highway doing 75…who then speed up as you try to pass. Then they back off, only to blow by you at 95mph a few minutes later. And 5-10 minutes after that, they’re going 65 in the fast lane and won’t get over. I rarely use the cruise control but try to maintain a steady speed–a good way for me to stay alert on long drives. And not going to lie, I take a bit of conceited pleasure when people tell me how smooth I drive a manual. My fiancee loves it because he can sleep in the car and not get woken up by jolting acceleration or braking. But I had to learn to drive smoothly after I got my permit–my mother and brother were frequent passengers and they both get carsick very easily, especially in manual cars.
I’ll never forget the Uber driver that nearly got us killed. They didn’t know how to use the defroster. It was wet and rainy with high humidity…and he had the system set to recirculate without the ac on. You couldn’t see a thing out of the windshield or windows and we were almost in a couple accidents.
I want a cruise control that lets me set everybody else’s speed.
I’ve only ever been in two ubers and neither was a hybrid. I’m an old.
Alternate theory: these Camry Hybrid Uber drivers are shitty drivers.
As it seems most Uber drivers are. They’ll stop in the middle of an intersection to discharge or pickup passengers, stop in the middle of the road, or drive very slowly. And I’m a delivery driver, so I know they’re trying to make money out there. But damn, it’s not costing you anything to pull to the curb.
Totally agree. I was in Australia last week (Melbourne) and Uber drivers would just stop without much attempt at all to pull over and let those behind (me!) past. Clearly I still haven’t got over it lol.
At least with taxis they’re clearly marked so you know to expect that sort of nonsense.
And accept rides when they’re in bed, half asleep, them shower, brush their teeth, get dressed, warm the car up, and drive to you at 25mph, in the hopes that you’ll just cancel and pay the fee so they can turn around and go back to sleep
The roads are their workplace and all the traffic and pedestrians are just in the way.
The thing is I’m a delivery driver, so the roads are also MY workplace. And, yes other people and pedestrians are just in the way, but I don’t stop in the middle of the road to drop off pizza.
You are clearly not selfish enough. Once you realize that you are the most important individual in the world, you will fit in better with the average driver.
I know. I have 2 BMWs and a RAM truck, and both use my turn signals, and don’t cruise in the left lane.
+1000
The stab’n’surge driving method is just awful, awful, awful.
I dated someone that drove like that for a while and it always made me sick. In a hilarious inverse that suggests I am the asshole, my steady-on-the-throttle style made her sick.
I suspect it was because she expected deceleration and acceleration in and out of curves, no matter how broad. “Left six, don’t lift” was still “lift”, somehow. The constant velocity (gonna talk physics out of my ass here) probably generated more lateral g’s than she was comfortable with or expecting. This wasn’t me lead-footing around backroads, either, just me trying not to unsettle weight of the driven vehicle to go 50 to 45 to 50 in a 50mph zone.
Nothing beats the hangover story, though. That deck was stacked and ill fated 16 hours earlier at the whiskey bar.
When I was younger I had a tendency to slow to stops without the normal moment where you come forward in your seat (a little) and then go back (I think it was just something I wanted to see if I could do). My GF at the time complained it made her carsick—like her equilibrium needed that firm stop sensation.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who does that. 🙂
As per your description of gas pedal pumping, you don’t have issues with Camry Hybrids. You have an issue with bad drivers
I’ve noticed a fair number of people treat the accelerator like an on/off switch, whether that’s gas, hybrid, EV. They accelerate up to desired speed, then lift off, reapply, let off, reapply, ad nauseum. If I’m a passenger, I find this irritating- like just hold the pedal slightly, or set the cruise, jeesus. You’re constantly either accelerating, or decelerating. I could see a hybrid would exaggerate this, since letting off triggers regen so the decel is stronger than a straight ICE car, and then reapply gives a more sudden shove forward with the electric.
Drivers who do this also usually hold the brake pedal firmly right until the car comes to a lurching stop, rather than gently ease off as the car is just about to stop to avoid the annoying lurch-back. I’ve also noticed they tend to have other crappy habits like driving with their high beams on all the time (oblivious, that blue indicator is some cryptic ancient rune, it’s not orange/red so it’s not a problem, ignore), put the wipers on turbo monsoon speed at the first hint of mist so they’re squeaking and chattering and making a ton of unnecessary noise, camping in the fast lane, or other silliness like putting an auto into neutral when coasting or at stoplights since they saw a Tiktok that says it saves gas (it doesn’t, actually the opposite).
I think it’s more “shitty drivers make me queasy”, although I can see the stronger acceleration and lift-off decel with electric could make it worse.
Whoa, just last night a friend posted a video from the back seat of a Toyota hybrid (not sure what model) Uber showing the power meter on the dash moving back and forth like a metronome, with the caption “He seems to think the accelerator pedal is a bass pedal.”
I responded that I’ve totally had this same experience in other EV/hybrid rideshares. It’s like the drivers think the accelerator is completely digital. I thought I was the only one who noticed.
In general, getting a rideshare for me is almost always eye opening. For years as a driver I’d judge other drivers for poor driving habits and wonder what the heck they were thinking. Actually being in the car with said drivers just confirms that they’re as oblivious as I suspected. The worst was my last ride where the Tesla driver camped in the fast lane on the freeway at the speed limit with zero cars ahead of him but a line of cars behind. I was internally screaming at him to GTFO of the way.
I use bumpers for internal screaming.
That’s good. Had a dream the other night about “pitting” every dumb ass driver I encountered. It was pretty satisfying.
Is it possible that they’re kind of like me and have figured they use less fuel if they don’t stay on the pedal and maintain speed, but just use throttle half the time while coasting the other half? They do drive a lot, so maybe they’ve adjusted their driving style for reduced consumption rather than comfort? I usually stay on the pedal and maintain speed, but on occasion I test this out on flat roads and see how frequently I need to press the gas while trying to maintain my speed within a certain range. Just a thought?
That’s called “pulse and glide” and is a tactic to conserve charge.
It’s a recommended technique for two-stroke SAABs as well, to keep the engine happier, but at least in this case any potential discomfort from abruptness is limited by the fact that the freewheeling mechanism has a reputation for shattering when subjected to rapid re-engagement.
Rabbit trail: My dad says that was actually a requirement years ago when driving cars with a splash oiling system. Steady state driving would end up with the oil slinging to the side so the oil would not be picked up. You had to vary the engine speed to break up the oil flow and allow it to be splashed to the placed where it was needed.
I recently saw an issue with an engineering change to a rear axle differential where engineering installed a shield to direct oil flow without realizing that the main pinion bearing was primarily splash oiled. The shield blocked the oil from being splashed onto the bearing and the bearing would burn up within 100 hours on the test stand.
That was my first thought too, but if they’re pulse and gliding in traffic with a paying passenger they should get a 1 star rating.
I’ve noticed lately that it’s the Tesla Model 3 that always make me feel the worst. Granted, when I’m taking Ubers I usually have a couple pops in me, but I think the combination of poor ride, limited visibility, and poor airflow to the rear seat always gets me feeling a little green by the time I’m home.
I’ve had issues with cars that have “swept back” profiles. Something about the long windshield and low roof that makes my eyes and brain go wonky.
I get carsick any time I’m in a Tesla Model 3 Uber, but that’s due to the driving (and the interior quality, and banging my head on the roof every time I get in). I have also felt carsick in a Corolla Hybrid, but again, I think it was the driving and not the car itself.
There are several hybrids and EVs that make me queasy, but, in my case, the nausea usually begins when I first see them.
Like you I’ve been fortunate that such queasiness hasn’t really been an issue for me in my life, but I noticed the same phenomenon in rideshares in Vancouver a few months ago. The majority of rides we got were electrified in some way – including a couple Teslas, and a couple Outlander PHEVs (extra fun as I was in the 3rd row – something needs to be done about allowing those to be classified as XLs). They were short trips fortunately, but the frequent stops/starts meant lots of opportunities to zip away from a stop and I found myself trying to find a good focal point to keep the feeling away.
That was the first time I’ve gotten electrified rideshares with regularity, at home I feel like I’m more likely to get an Altima or Trax or something. However I did experience the highway pulsing effect in a Suburban on a work trip, also in the 3rd row along with one of my bosses. I thought I was imagining it until I looked over and she grumbled about it.
I’ve also seen some people complain about this in Tesla rideshares, but seems they chalked it up to the ride when it must be the torque too.
I have just noticed that I never really fit in Toyotas. I’ve never thought that I was super big before.
People who can’t maintain a constant speed have been a thing in ICE cars since I can remember as well.
It’s not “Camry Hybrid Ubers”; it’s people who were never taught to drive by someone who knows how, but they are driving anyways. That’s MY theory 😉
my wife drives an ICE like this. it does not make me sick but it’s very annoying. she keeps tapping the gas instead of holding steady or making minute changes to increase or decrease speed.
Feather that pedal! Learning on a manual helps…
This. My wife was taught to drive by her father. ALL pedals (clutch included) are treated as binary inputs. There is no modulation, no subtlety, no understanding of what each pedal is actually DOING. It’s horrific. I can’t handle more than an hour with her at the wheel; it becomes physically tiring just sitting in the passenger seat and trying to stay motionless.
The only redeeming quality is that she IS a manual-transmission-fan.
The comments here also have me gravely worried for our next car which will surely be, at the very least, some kind of hybrid, but definitely with that shove-in-the-back torque of an electric motor entering the mix, and probably some regen as well.
My shotgun-sitting threshold may well go down to a handful of minutes. A *very* careful test-drive will be needed, for sure.
I get sick in my wife’s BMW i4 30 Motion E Gran Coupe (or whatever the heck it is called).
Close to the same reasons.
Glad I’m not crazy! I observed the exact same thing, but in my case they were Prius taxi cabs.
Maybe a large proportion of taxi/Uber drivers believe the throttle pedal only has two positions, and that cruise control is a product of The Devil, but only electrified drivelines respond quickly enough to make it a problem? Interesting thesis.
Cruise in a taxi situation isn’t very useful since it’s mostly in urban area. That being said, I have a Hybrid C-Max and find it easy to both maintain speed with constant throttle pressure and make no lurching adjustments to my speed. In fact, I’d say I drive more smoothly in the hybrid than in ICE cars.