What little training I’ve had in statistics has led me to think of most problems as either numerator problems or denominator problems. When it comes to the lack of affordability in new cars, it’s usually a numerator problem. Honda plans to fight this by improving the odds you’ll be able to find an affordable car.
There are a lot of announcements from the company today, including that Acura will finally get a hybrid, and it’s the one you’d expect. Tesla’s FSD system gets frequent airplay in The Morning Dump, but today’s news isn’t about it not working.
David is driving the cool Kia K4 Hatch today, but there’s another Kia that I now want.
Honda Is America’s New Best Trimflation Fighter
If you haven’t heard me complain about trimflation before, the concept is fairly simple: automakers, when pressed, will offer lower-cost trims while not actually building that many. It’s fine to say your starting price for your mid-size crossover is $34,000, but if you only build one of those for every 300 higher-trim models, it doesn’t really matter.
This is the numerator/denominator problem. The average new car transaction price will continue to increase so long as there are too few low-trim models available to buy.
Honda is a company that makes a lot of cars in the United States and, therefore, is able to flex its production might in the face of tariffs. The company just announced it’s going to use that might to fight trimflation:
American Honda is maintaining a flexible and balanced strategy to stay competitive and adapt to evolving market conditions. In 2026, to meet customer needs for affordability, the company will increase production of more value-oriented trims of core Honda models (CR-V, Civic, Accord) and gateway Acura models (ADX and Integra).
“With average new car prices hitting record highs across the industry, cost is a growing concern, and we want the Honda and Acura brands to continue to be recognized for delivering incredible value to our customers,” said Woelfer.
This is a win for consumers. While plenty of automakers have stated that lower-trim models are coming, this is the first time I can remember seeing one specifically state that it’s going to build more of them. As you can see in the graphic above, the MSRP difference for a Civic Sport Hybrid and a Sport Touring Hybrid is $3,000, or a full 10% increase.
As someone who happily drives a CR-V Sport, I can tell you that there’s not much I’m missing on my “base” trim Honda hybrid. There are most of the features I want, other than the heated steering wheel. I kind of miss the heated steering wheel.
The Acura RDX Is Getting A Hybrid, Eventually
One of the more head-scratching decisions from Honda was that the company didn’t more aggressively pursue hybrids for its vehicles. The Acura RDX is made in East Liberty, Ohio, where its cousin, the Honda CR-V, is also built. The CR-V, as noted above, is available as a hybrid.
Instead, Acura is going to get the RSX electric crossover first. That logic of it makes sense when looking back on predictions about electrification, but I’m sure many Acura dealers would rather have a hybrid.
To wit, Acura just announced it’ll build a new RDX with the hybrid system. Eventually.
“For nearly two decades, RDX has been one of the most popular Acura models, so it’s fitting that the upcoming fourth-generation RDX will be the first Acura to feature our two-motor hybrid-electric system,” said Mike Langel, assistant vice president of Acura National Sales. “The RDX hybrid is expected to arrive at dealerships within the next couple of years, and we’re thrilled to share this news as Acura celebrates its 40th anniversary—making this milestone even more special.”
Is that next year? Or is this a Scranton “couple of two-three years” situation wherein the quantity can be anywhere between 1 and 27?
Tesla To Make FSD Monthly Only
If you want Tesla’s “Full-Self Driving” (FSD) system, which is not actually full-self-driving, then it would cost you $8,000 once, or $99 per month forever. If you plan to use the system for about seven years, then it’s cheaper to do the one-time payment.
Perhaps seeing that the one-shot isn’t popular, Tesla announced it’ll be ending the one-time payment option as of February 14th. Or, according to Bloomberg, maybe there’s another reason:
Although Musk didn’t offer any rationale for the switch, his compensation is partly dependent on growing the business. Reaching 10 million active FSD subscriptions is among the targets Tesla must hit for the CEO to earn additional shares under the pay package shareholders approved in November. Achieving a series of market capitalization and operational milestones could net him around $1 trillion worth of stock.
I still think monthly is the smarter play for most people.
Ohhhhhhh Kia K4 Sportswagon
President Trump went to a Ford plant yesterday, said he didn’t think Americans wanted to buy anything from Canada, a worker called him something he didn’t like, and then the President flicked him off. Is this worth touching? Not really! People are allowed to criticize elected officials, and people raised in New York will find any excuse to make that gesture.
So let’s talk about something more interesting: Station wagons!
Kia is about to start selling the hatchback version of its affordable and stylish K4 here in the United States. In fact, David is going to drive it today and report back when the embargo is up, whenever that is.
What we are unlikely to get is the handsome wagon version that debuted yesterday. Here’s the wagon:
Here’s the K4 Hatch:
I prefer the Sportswagon, but they both look great, and I’m not going to feel terrible about not getting it.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
Here’s a surprise drum session from South Korean President Lee Jae Myung and Japanese Prime Minister Sanae Takaichi. They’re drumming along to “Golden” from K-Pop Demon Hunters. Diplomacy can be the carrot or the stick. OR, it can be the drumstick.
The Big Question
What’s the best lower trim new model for sale right now?
Top photo: Honda
More lower trim options both appearing and being produced is good on paper but I would be wary of new, odd omissions to… incentivize buyers to move up. (or just cut corners in more ways)
The 2025 4Runner SR5 maintains the same MSRP (don’t know what it actually sells for) but loses a lot of previously-standard equipment like a power driver’s seat, auto-dimming mirror, hood insulation, full-size spare, hood struts, metal skid plates, etc.
This was often standard procedure (like when I shopped Colorado WT’s) but base trucks like the Maverick XL ticked a lot of boxes but couldn’t be optioned with cruise.
The trim system remains silly and arbitrary…good on them for allowing anyone who can go without paddles and bigger wheels to save $2k.
“People don’t buy low-trim cars”
Yes. That’s because they are the “small soda”. The entire point is to up-sell people.
If low-trims sell, the dealership is not functioning as intended, the automaker is not functioning as intended/desired.
They’re not supposed to sell. I imagine the targeted split varies with brand strategy, but the trim system wouldn’t exist if they didn’t want to sell lots of “mediums”.
“Trimflation” is a bit of a chicken and egg issue, isn’t it? You could argue Honda (and others) build more of the higher trim cars because that’s what people are buying – so it’s what dealers order.
The cheap cars don’t get built because very few want them.
Many Autopians like decontented cars, but I think we’re way out of touch with the wider market. People love features in their cars and have proven they’re willing to pay up for it. Why wouldn’t automakers follow their lead?
Yes. Enthusiasts and social media commenters complain constantly about modern car features, safety nannies, and giant touchscreens, but Average Joe and Jane car buyer (especially Jane who makes the majority of family vehicle purchase decisions) loves all the shiny bits and tech because they equate those features with safety and value.
I hate the narrative that consumers are basically stupid magpies who love shiny things. Even if it’s true, the goal should be to make understanding accessible instead of exploiting a lack of it.
It’s like with computers, not everyone needs to be a power user, but people should know what “the box with www dot in it” in their web browser is. A lack of understanding makes communication difficult and operation of common consumer technology unsafe (like, with that example, phishing/scams).
I don’t think people are spinning that narrative at all. Consumers aren’t stupid, they just have different priorities to the average Autopian reader.
People love features in cars and have their own reasons for feeling that way. I don’t think that’s stupid at all.
I’d say there’s some truth to what you say, but there’s also truth to the idea that people buy what is available. The number of non-enthusiasts I have heard from who like the touchscreens is approximately the same as the number of enthusiasts who try to convince me that having most controls on the touchscreens is fine. Not zero, but not a lot.
But features, yeah, especially safety features. Blind spot monitoring, AEB, lane-keep assist, 360 cams, etc. make sales. And I definitely know a lot of people who love things like the big wheels, glass roof, and other appearance things. I mentioned to my dad that I was considering smaller wheels and better tires and his reaction was to say that the wheels looked really good and it rode well. He buys low-trim vehicles, owns a log truck, and gets pretty aggressive tread on his pickup tires for going up logging roads or things around there, but he still liked the big wheels with less tire.
great appearance of a couple two tree, which I think of as a Chicago thing.
Wow, the LX is back! It also comes with the decent 2.0l NA engine as opposed to the crappy 1.5 turbo that Honda needs to give up on. I’d buy the LX or go straight to the hybrid.
What price point do you expect the wagons to hit?
Honda has a dealer issue. The dealers don’t want to sell cheap cars they want to make the most money they can. It’s been clear for a while the whole idea of salespeople goes against being economical. I think Saturn had attempted to take that on with calling the sales people something else and giving them a flat fee or even some dealers had them on salery. I’m not sure how many people want to deal with anyone at all. They just want to look at a website and pick something then go in and make sure and grab it. But I’m sure going forward there will be people that want the full e-commerce approach like carvana. That is the true reason it won’t die I believe. Though being able to make a deal is something I don’t mind the dealers seem to have lost that art then call you back begging you to come back when the thing sits there because they won’t be where they should be. Honda is some of the worst when it comes to that. They were all too happy to “market adjust” to increase but when the market goes down they don’t want to reduce.
IIRC, Saturn called their sales staff “Associates”, but more importantly, as you pointed out, they did not work on commission. My first career was in specialty retail, and we likewise did not work on commission. I was totally fine with that as an employee, and customers lauded our service.
I suppose non-commission sales are not right for every industry, but I think the model has at least as many advantages as disadvantages.
This brings up an excellent point.
If not all, most dealerships are similar in that regard, i.e. happy to apply an increase ‘adjustment price’and very reluctant to apply an adjustment that actually lowers the price of the product.
This very much reminds me of the famous Charlie Munger quote:
“Shoe me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome”
Definitely, manufacturers could be to at least partly blame some of time. Some Nissan dealers were begging Nissan for price reductions because they knew they were overpriced and couldn’t sell anything. Bigger Ford dealers are able to get Ford to agree to massive price reductions often. I’ve seen some Hondas and Toyota dealers knocking a few $k off some models in some markets so the reckoning has to be coming.
“What’s the best lower trim new model for sale right now?”
Honda Odyssey’s entry level EX-L. Used to be the second lowest trim until the lowest trim was cut. The price increase wasn’t that much over the previous entry level trim, but you got a lot for your money including leather.
That’s a great example of the opposite of trimflation going on at Honda: trim devaluation. Decades ago EX-L was the top dog trim, above base, DX, LX, and EX.
What would a modern Civic DX even look like?
Man, I had a Civic CX back in the day so no need to brag about your luxurious DX with its fancy wheel covers and rear wiper.
A modern Civic DX would have 15″ silver steelies with a tiny H center cap, unpainted mirrors and door handles, optional cruise control and a 6spd manual.
I bet for a DX they would bring back 5-speed manual…
I thought about that but even the base 2015 Fit came with a 6 spd manual so my gut said, the bigger, newer Civic has to at least match that. Maybe they would just bring back a less powerful engine like a non-VTEC version of the 2.0 or the 1.8 from the previous gen HR-V to punish you for going with the lesser trim level like 30 years ago with non-EX Civics and Accords
Side-view mirror only on the Driver’s side…
And the mirror cap (singular) would be unpainted.
This is where Honda is actually the problem.
In 2020, the still sold the LX, and it MSRP’d for about 32k with destination. Six years later, the entry point for an Odyssey is the EX-L for 44k with destination. A 12k increase over 6 years is pretty nuts.
This might be regional, but ever since the 2nd gen Odyssey when they went to sliders, the LX was an extremely rare sight – I think because it didn’t have the power sliders.
Regardless, minivan pricing always hurts my brain because in the late 90s, a loaded minivan was usually a little over the $30k mark.
agreed, 2nd gen and 3rd gen LX vans were kind of rare, but I still believe the EX with mushy cloth seats was the volume leader by a long shot. Leather was indeed super rare in the 2nd gens.
This trim devaluation thing + lack of Hybrid options is the main reason why Sienna dominates this market. My uncle is extremely happy with the LE Hybrid van he got a couple years ago for $39K
Completely agree a $12k increase on what was a $32k product 6 short years ago seems high
I ran it through an inflation calc.
$32k in 2020 is equal to $39,805.79
So either Honda is squeezing out more profit per unit or there are additional increased costs to them or some combination of the two
I’ve always thought the best base model would be a brand new prior-generation car. I’m sure they did it for other reasons, but I thought it was smart of Stellantis to sell a “RAM classic” alongside the new model. Once you have all the tooling paid for and the development costs completely amortized for your old model, you should be able to sell it for pretty cheap and still make a profit. If you limit the old model to some fairly basic builds I really doubt you cannibalize much of your high margin sales of the newer model.
If Stellantis wanted to do a promotion with value RAM, they could probably dupe tech companies into embarrassingly large fleet orders if they caught some executives desperate to secure contracts for flash memory.
Volkswagen also did that in Canada in 2006-2008 with the Golf City and Jetta City. Older 4th gen sold alongside the newer and more expensive 5th gen
VW did this with the MKII Jetta in China too. The MKII Jetta sold there for more than a decade after the MKIII Jetta started sales in 98′
See: Rambler American, circa 1958 (aka the 1955 bathtub Rambler with the rear wheel wells punched out). It even kept the old flathead six.
would be nice to be able to pick n’ choose your options instead of buying the dreaded packages or options groups, but we all know that boat sank years ago… add leather seats, yay! but you then have to pay for leather everything and a headroom-reducing sunroof. boo.
In fairness to Honda, they have been using the package model for as long as they’ve been selling cars in the USA. That was the basis of their slogan in the late 70s-early 80s: “We make it simple.” Fewer individual option items meant fewer configurations to build, which meant a cost savings to Honda, which was [theoretically] passed on to the consumer.
Funny that Kia would offer both the K4 hatch and wagon… they look very close in size, just with different C-pillars/windows (bigger on the wagon). Love that gold the hatch always wears. I’m not likely to run out and buy one, but it’ll get added to my list of cars to consider when they’re 5+ years old, barring incident.
Best lower trim is the F150. The base model XL single cab comes standard with the Coyote V8! Add more seats and the base engine is the 2.7T, which is a gem of an engine. It can tow a bunch of weight, has a bed, and comes standard with a bunch of safety features.
You can also get a locking rear differential as a stand-alone option on any trim level or chassis configuration.
Fun Fact: The Kia website for the K4 Hatchback still says “Expected Late 2025″
The past, the future, now, all of it has happened. Kia is surfing the time waves of the universe while we sit here being led along like a bunch of Lemurs!
It’s not Kia’s fault that you ended up in the wrong timeline.
Still not sure I believe Honda. They’ve been some of the worst culprits when it comes to limiting or eliminating base trims altogether. For instance, Honda eliminated the Odyssey LX. Then they even eliminated the EX. Now the base model is the EX-L, which is frankly pretty ridiculous.
Honda would do well to actually build some LXs, especially with the Civic of course. I know some people around here believe that base models don’t sell, but they definitely sell when looking at the compact sedan class of cars, as that segment is (somehow) the bottom of the market now. No, regular people who need basic transportation don’t need to spend the same 25k on a used Grand Cherokee with a bunch of options and mileage on it. The whole premise that someone should opt for a larger, better equipped car used because “better value” is honestly, pretty stupid to me. And I’ve seen a lot of people get themselves into trouble because of it.
And a Civic LX Hybrid would be plug-and-play from the manufacturing end.
I dunno, I’m glad people will have more options for buying new, but I would have a hard time faulting someone who instead chose to spend their $25k on, say, a loaded low mileage 3 year old Accord Touring. That’s not really a poor decision at all….just a different one.
It certainly depends. If someone has a 25k budget but that budget is based on the expectation that the car last 8+ years, buying something with the first 3-5 years blasted off of it probably isn’t a great idea.
Getting an Accord instead of a Civic, used, isn’t all that egregious though. Unfortunately, this mindset is often used to buy ridiculous vehicles. Long ago, a coworker was confused as to why I would spend 19k on a new Suzuki SX4, when I could have bought an 8 year old F-150 for that money instead. So much more vehicle for the money!
Unless you are pounding on a zillion miles a year, losing the first few years to a typically low-miles CPO car is no big deal and can get you a rather nicer car for the money. If I am going to be in a car for a long time, the last thing I want is a hairshirt,
I understand, but I’m just not seeing awesome CPO deals these days. When the typical off lease vehicle was being sold for 65 percent of its original MSRP, it was different. Lately it seems like you’re giving up a car’s best years for a coupon.
So true. Right now you’re lucky to get 15% off MSRP on a couple years old CPO. I’d rather but new with a full warranty even if that means stepping down 1 trim or segment
Not to mention better interest rates. And a little more control when it comes to things like exterior color. Shopping the off-lease options often means choosing between a half dozen cars in seasonal depression gray.
Certainly if you are shopping Honda and Toyota.
But even like a Kia Telluride isn’t that much of a discount for a 2-year old, 25k mile example.
The past few years were not normal. Normal is coming back like a runaway freight train.
But here’s the thing – people here are acting like 10-15% is the difference between “affordable” and “not affordable”. 10-15% gets you a rather nicer car.
Personally – I have never thought CPO is worth it either – buy a low miles 10yo car and save a fortune, or suck it up and buy new. But that’s not easy enough for most buyers who just want to swing by the dealership on a whim and drive home in a new ride.
Ehh…maybe! Did you know the average age of a car in the U.S. is 13 years? You put another 8 years on top of a 3 year old CPO and you’re not even at average yet. If you think of 200k as the new 100k, I’m not sure the first 35k really matters that much. Still a new car!
I just think that the first couple years and whatever mileage (your mileage may literally vary, if you don’t drive a whole lot then this has less of an impact, but typical usage in my parts is probably 15k a year) have serious value. These are years where fluids are the only maintenance.
This is also sort of regional. 13 years on a car here usually means you’re beginning to deal with rust.
Give me that K4 Sportwagon with the same powertrain as the Niro and I might be tempted to switch. Maybe tune the DCT better in Sport mode (there is no reason for a DCT to be that slow to respond to gear change input)
I believe they dropped the DCT entirely in the K4. Most trims get the CVT, GT-Line and GT-Line Turbo get an 8-speed TC automatic.
I thought they dropped it for non hybrid cars only. They seems to be dropping it for hybrids also. It work well enough in the hybrids as it does not have to slip the clutch to start. It’s just slow in manual mode.
Yeah that’d get me thinking real hard about a Kia as well.
If I am signing up for 27 mpg instead of 47 though, I’ll probably go somewhere else.
One thing striking me about the Civic trim levels: you’ll get push button start at a lower trim level than you get wireless CarPlay. So is it important that I don’t have to take shit out of my pockets or not? If I have to take my phone out, can’t I also take out my keys?
You can get a Motorola MA1 Wireless Car Adapter for Android Auto for less than $50 or a noname one for like $20. I have one in my tenth gen Sport Hatch. You plug it into the USB, it connects to your phone using wifi, phone stays in pocket, music and maps on the screen.
Wireless Carplay/AA adapters are the great equalizer.
On the base LX you’d still have to rummage through your pocket to hit the key fob to lock/unlock the car. That’s one of the gotchas on base models nowadays: everything gets pushbutton start, but they leave off the lock sensors on the base model.
I find the fascination with these screen replication features, well, fascinating. I have had a car with that (and a billion rentals with it), it’s so far down the list of things I care about that I could not care less whether a car even has it or not, never mind whether I have to, perish the thought, plug a cable in to use it. If I am using my phone in the car, I am plugging in the cable to charge the thing anyway. My phone rarely seems to work in cars that have charge pads. Though I suppose if more of them implement the magnetic attachment that would improve.
But for sure this is exactly the sort of feature they leave out of base cars to make them less desirable so you spend the money to move on up a trim level. It saves them nothing compared to the extra profit, it’s just carrot and stick.
I have a longish commute when I drive (62 mi or 100 km). I like to be able to see if there are any traffic jams and adjust my route accordingly.
And you can’t do that directly on your phone screen? Baffling.
My phone is bigger than any of the standalone GPS’s I ever had before navigating with a phone became a thing.
I agree with Max Fresh, I could do it on my phone, but I much prefer seamless integration with my car. Taking out my phone to plug it in and drop it in a 3rd party mount is kind of a non-starter. Not that long ago, it was the only option, but I have made a complete 180. Also hands-free driving laws mean I can use the native touchscreen in my vehicle but I am not supposed to use my phone… stupid distinction to make imo but I am willing to play by these rules.
In my state it is illegal to hold a phone for any reason while driving. Plus it’s not just the screen, my AA also shows the distance to an upcoming turn in the instrument cluster as well.
Also if I look up a destination in the map app, it pre-populates it on the nav screen when I start the car.
So use a phone mount. <shrug>
Like Church said above it’s important (to me) that I don’t have to take shit out of my pockets now. I just walk up, the car unlocks, I press in the clutch, mash the start button, and my maps and music are on the screen. No need to touch keys or phone at all unless I want to roll down the windows from outside of the car.
Honda’s lineup is full of questionable decisions. There is no hybrid in the HR-V, nor is there a hybrid for any Acura products, despite models like the Integra being incredibly closely related to their Honda counterparts. Honda’s sluggishness on eAWDifying all the things, I’m sure, is giving Toyota a sales boost. Whether you like it or not, in about half of the country, most consumers want AWD. And if it’s available for only $1.4k more, I’m choosing it every single time. Also, If Honda wanted to make the hybrid drivetrain available in all trims, like Toyota does, that would be a significant win.
TBQ: Pick your flavor of entry-level Toyota (besides the Corolla). In LE form the Prius, Camry, and Rav4 make for excellent appliance cars with the added benefit of hybridization.
The reality is nobody (other than a few wierdos writing on the Internet from their parent’s basement) actually wants those pauper-special low trim cars, which why they don’t bother making many. People SAY they do, but when they come to buy they see how little difference that $3-4K makes, and how chintzy the base car actually is, and they just buy the nicer one. At the end of the day, the nicer one just isn’t that many more dollars a month, or you take the note for a few more months. A 10% increase means a $500/mo payment goes to $550ish. If $50/mo is a big deal, you probably shouldn’t be shopping in that price range to start with. For a couple, that’s eating out one less time a month… Real new car buyers can afford it. If you only have pauper-spec money, just buy a CPO nicer one.
Personally, I would never buy a new Civic when I can buy a used BMW or Mercedes for the same money. Has always worked out exceedingly well for me.
That dude at Ford is my hero.
More wagons are better than fewer (not that we will see it here, we don’t deserve nice things evidently), but the detailing on the K4 is horrible. WTF is going on with those head and tail lights?? Nice overall shape ruined. And I am sure the interior is idiotic too. Can somebody PLEASE bring back clean simplicity? And I HATE floating roofs and black wheels too. Fads that need to die in a fire.
While I generally agree that it’s fine to spend a little more money on a nicer trim level of a car you intend to keep a long time, the base model Honda Civic is a go-to for a lot of people who are, lets say, frugal.
You get a base civic, you drive it for 10 years, you replace it with a new base civic. And that new base civic already has all sorts of features your old one didn’t have, so you already got your upgrade there.
And its a far better gamble than “a used BMW or Mercedes for the same money.” (New Civic owner)
Guaranteed Honda is going to do things to make the base car chintzier and chintzier to keep their margins intact. Currently, LX is the base trim, and it IS perfectly delightful – but if they are going to make something cheaper, you can be sure they are going to leave off a bunch of nice to have stuff to achieve that. If they are just going to make more LXs (I doubt that) then fine.
Would be nice if they would make an “LX Hybrid” – that is quite the jump to get to the Sport Hybrid, and I find that usually anything that makes a car like this “Sport” is nothing I would want in the first place. Rubber-band tires, sunroof, auto climate control, etc.
The sport hybrid here echoes the toyota hybrids starting in the “SE” trim. Not sure why they won’t offer a base model hybrid, maybe because they figure people that will pony up a bit more for a hybrid will also pay for some extra features. But paying the premium for a civic (it is a nicer car than the Corolla, to be fair) plus the hybrid plus the sport package and lacking the AWD that the corolla has seems like a miss for Honda if they are going to tout affordability.
We’ll see, maybe they really put a lot of LXs on the lots. It would be a shame if the pulled a Ford and kept pushing everything up-market and clipping the entry level cars (RIP Fit).
Carrot and stick. They make way more money this way. If you want the better powertrain, pay up. It gives a perception of extra value, but reality is those fripperies cost about nothing over the cost of the base car compared to the difference in price, and it lets them better absorb the powertrain costs.
They briefly did an LX hybrid on the prior-gen CR-V and an unnamed base hybrid on the prior Accord that was like an LX+, but those were about it for ‘base’ hybrid Hondas.
Honda often does a value-oriented Special Edition near the end of a generation with uplevel features on an otherwise lower-trim car, I think it would be an interesting value proposition if applied with the hybrid. Moreso for the CR-V, since there’s more hybrid competition there and Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia entries all start cheaper.
I remember a friend had an Accord Special Edition – if I recall correctly it had leather seats, sunroof and a stick, that thing was sweet and it was way less expensive than I thought it would be.
Pretty simple – they would lose a lot of money, instead of a little money.
Usually the hybrid powertrain is paid for by the profit from all the features they add into the models that have a hybrid. If you did an LX hybrid that makes Honda profit like an LX, it would be so close to the next trim up Hybrid no one would buy it. You pay a lot more for features in a trim level than what the content actually costs.
Look at Mr Affordability over here, eating out with his spouse for $50!
I’m a cheap date, what can I say?
and this line of thinking is how we get to today. it’s just a few more dollars, just a few more dollars, just a few more months, just a few more blah blah. never happy, never want to be seen in those pauper level trims, never out of debt.
at least I’m writing from my own basement.
Porsche said it best long ago “the entry level car is a USED car”. If you can’t buy a decent new car, why bother to buy new in the first place? Modern cars last a long, long, long time today, assuming you don’t buy something stupid.
As I have said on here many times, what is the point of a new hairshirt? If I am spending the money for new, I want something nice for that money. And the reality is today, cars are so damned expensive to develop and produce that the things that CAN be done to make them cheaper, tend to make them disproportionately not nice. The mid-trims are always the best value. But I would rather have a more used premium car than a new or nearly new not-premium car. A strategy that served me well for decades before I could comfortable just buy new premium cars. There is no universe that I would buy a $24K new Civic over a $24K used BMW (or whatever nicer car floats your boat). Not that there is anything wrong with a Civic LX, but that is pretty much the absolute cheapest you can sell a decent car today. Anything notably cheaper than that is a crapcan with VERY rare exceptions.
Cars cost what they cost because cars are massively better (in most objective ways) than they have ever been, they are massively more expensive to engineer and produce than in the past, the “EV revolution” needed to be paid for, simple inflation causing dollars to get smaller (and now the tariff idiocy), and at the end of the day – people who are actual new car buyers cheerfully willing to pay the prices.
As I have also said on here before, if your pay has not kept pace with or outpaced inflation, that’s a you problem.
“pauper-special low trim cars”
What even is that anymore? It used to be base models had no radio, no heater, no A/C, no power anything, bare painted steel wheels, rear drums and unpainted bumpers. Forget about A/C or cruise control. And the smallest, wheeziest, least efficient engine with a stick shift that felt like stirring oatmeal in a bag of bolts. Getting to 60 was a maybe.
Move to even 15 years ago base models came with power windows/mirrors/steering/brakes automatic climate control, cruise control, a CD changer, alloys and painted bumpers. Even some nice chrome trim. Engine power was more than adequate and the transmission shifted itself unless you opted for the stick on purpose.
So what does “base” look like now? No dual heated, massaging power seats? No self driving? Only 6 decent sounding speakers and no subwoofer? No trunk monkey? A dashboard with gauges? Things controlled with knobs/switches/sliders/buttons instead of a giant touchscreen?
It’s not about features, it’s about the engineering underneath. Which is why for me I don’t care that a Mirage has the same “features” as a base BMW.
And a Mirage\Versa is what a truly cheap car has to be. A nasty loud tin box, even if it has electric windows and mirrors. The Civic is kind of a bad example because currently it is true that Honda doesn’t produce a base Civic, they effectively start at mid-trim and go up from there. But that is part of why a Civic starts at $25K and not $20K.
I would pay MORE for no screens. Put the mandated backup camera in the mirror where it belongs as GM did for a million cars once.
Even the Versa and Mirage are engineered FAR better on all fronts than their predecessors. As a DD I need to actually work I’ll take a modern Versa over a B210 or even an 810 any day and twice on Sunday (as long as it’s got the stick shift).
Well sure, time marches on in 40-odd years. Even a Mirage is an AMAZING accomplishment by the standards of the 1970s in any objective way. Subjectively I’d absolutely rock a nice 810 and not think twice about it. Doesn’t mean I have any interest at all in driving a Mirage, compared to literally everything else on the US market it’s a total crapcan that was really ONLY notable for being the cheapest car you could buy new.
The Versa is a little better than that, but not nearly enough better that I wouldn’t just buy something massively nicer used for the same money – I only paid $17K for my ’11 BMW convertible in 2020, and for the first four years I owned it needed nothing at all (the warranty period on a Nissan). In the next year and a half, it hasn’t needed much, and many would have ignored some of the things I did to it (struts and shocks, some sun-damaged bits were replaced). As I have said myriad times, I don’t see the point of new cheap crapcans. New just isn’t THAT interesting in an era when any decent car will go 15-20yrs and 200K+ with minimal fuss.
Sure if you are OK with rolling the dice on a 9 yo used BMW. Not everyone is comfortable with that.
<shrug> They should be, they are stout cars when bought and maintained properly. AKA, don’t buy cheap ill-maintained, beat up junk. I bought the second most expensive 128i convertible on sale in the entire country at the time. I missed buying the MOST expensive one by five minutes. Probably dodged a bullet given that one was a 135i, but it would have been a lot of fun. It was even lower miles, a spectacular color combination and just as “ramped and stamped” as the one I bought. It was also a LOT more money, if still much, much cheaper than a new M240i convertible at the time. But I am under no illusions as to the relative reliability of the turbo vs. non-turbo BMW I6s. Chalk and cheese, got to pay to play. But I am exceedingly happy with my car.
Good for you. Too bad BMW doesn’t build them all like that.
They built all of the n51/52 cars like that. As I have said, in 15 years I have replaced the battery in the n52 328i wagon I did buy new. My mother’s Kia hasn’t managed three years and less than 15K miles without throwing a CEL.
I would have bought that N55 car anyway, simply because it was really, truly spectacular. Literally how I would have ordered one new, had I ordered a turbo. Reality is I would not have ordered a turbo new, but beggars don’t get to be choosers.
I don’t know if it regional or not, but man do I hate ‘flicked off’. You flip the bird. Flip him off. You’re not trying to fling a booger.
It’s a weird thing to have feelings about but here I am.
Base models are pretty loaded today, by even 2016 standards.
Automatic (yeah, yeah, not for us), air conditioning, power windows/locks/mirrors, heated seats, cruise control.
About the only thing missing for most is the hybrid option and heated steering wheel.
So, the best base model might be something like a Toyota Camry, which comes with a heated steering wheel in all models and is a hybrid by default.
Maverick XL and XLT. In fact I don’t know why people buy the Lariat. If it had real leather maybe.
It’s amazing how quickly Maverick prices have increased since launch, and how quickly prices increase when you climb the trim ladder. Also, all the desirable options being bundled together with 9 other ones you don’t actually want is a play everyone is using, but it’s still frustrating nonetheless.
Out of curiosity I used the build and price tool to option one exactly like mine (2023, or at least as close as possible with the current options. It’s pretty much exactly $3,000 more than what I paid 3 years ago.
Yeah, when it first came out, it was a steal, now much less so. How do you like it?
I love it. It’s very practical and meets my needs almost perfectly. Mine is pretty middle of the road as far as options go, so it wasn’t really super cheap like the 2wd XL trim ones, but I still think it’s a great value for the money. I think most of the more serious recall issues have been with the early hybrids. I have a couple outstanding recalls but they’re for software issues that aren’t particularly consequential.
Overall I think Ford really did a good job with it. It really is kind of a small do-anything vehicle. Nothing’s perfect though and some things I think could be better on mine are the infotainment (I understand the new system is much better), the dash layout (this is admittedly super minor), and the paint quality. The paint’s not bad, but on the underside it does seem a little thin and that makes me concerned about future rust problems.
I really hate base model stuff. I get why it exists, but I have always shopped with the mindset of buy something older will all the options instead of newer with no options. Not having heated seats may work for some people but not me,.
I agree – it goes against the grain of this website and its commenters, but base cars are so depressing.
Why? Even base cars have plenty of toys to play with.
Personal preference, and I’m sure based on your username we will fiercely disagree.
But I don’t like steelies, hubcaps, small wheels that make the cars look like shopping carts, matte black plastic anything, non-LED lighting, cloth interiors, blank switches, lower power powertrains… the list goes on.
To each their own.
Sure. If slapping a Lexus badge on a Prius or Camry makes you happy then by all means enjoy the opulence.
There’s no need to be rude. What I listed constitutes, to me, substantial and worthwhile upgrades to car ownership.
They go well beyond a rebadging exercise.
If you say so, however every example you listed including upgrading powertrains in the same chassis is still badge engineering:
“What is Badge Engineering?
At its core, badge engineering is the practice of taking one car and selling it under different brands with cosmetic tweaks. Sometimes, these changes can be as minimal as swapping out one automaker’s badges and emblems for another’s, while at other times, manufacturers may entirely restyle vehicles to incorporate brand-specific styling details, such as grilles, headlights, taillights, bumpers, and/or interior trim, to make the finished products stand out. However, in some cases, certain manufacturers may even go under the hood to fit their engines or drivetrains, making the badge-engineered version of a car more distinct.”
https://dyler.com/blog/1841/the-good-and-the-bad-of-badge-engineering
I wanna give Chevy an honorable mention for being able to get heated seats in lower trim levels, even with a bench seat!
Yes, this is the way.
Is the middle seat heated?
I don’t drive from the middle seat, so I don’t care.
That Ford employee = hero
Freedom of speech works both ways.
Understatement of the year!
Freedom of Religion also inherently states Freedom From Religion.
Preach!
…or not!
He has been fired.
Yes, freedom of speech works both ways: you both get to express your opinion, and also to suffer the consequences of expressing your opinion.
That’s one reason among many why there’s the old saying “discretion is the better part of valor.”
The Union will likely fight that.
Which is everyone’s reminder that Unions are important.
I’m sure the Union will win, this is necessary theatre.
And, “choose your friends wisely”, which is something the current leader would have done well to remember back in the 1990’s.
Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.
He has been suspended.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2026/01/14/gofundme-ford-worker-trump-suspended-tj-sabula/88175622007/?gnt-cfr=1&gca-cat=p&gca-uir=false&gca-epti=z116125p119150c119150u114925d00—-v116125&gca-ft=31&gca-ds=sophi
Almost guaranteed that the union will file a grievance. An active union will file grievances for the slightest disciplinary action against a worker on principle alone, short of embezzling, blatant theft, or murder.
Not to paint all unions with one brush, but the UAW will gladly defend embezzling and theft.
Sadly, that’s not wrong…
I agree mostly with your statement, except it doesn’t seem as if the president is suffering any real consequences for expressing his opinion, only the autoworker is. Furthermore, the president has expressed far worse opinions than that one and has also suffered very little in the way of consequences for them. It really seems as if the “consequences” part of freedom of speech only applies if you don’t have power.
Indeed. The politician replies in a really demeaning way and suffers nothing. 1st Amendment FoMoCo. The nepo guy supports the politician because he has no spine
Considering that I was talking about the auto worker… um, yeah.
The president still has very high poll numbers among the millions of Americans who elected him. He still has very low poll numbers among the millions of TDS sufferers who did not.
Trump’s Deranged Syndrome.
The president has a very very very long history of insulting people and mouthing off about things he knows nothing about.
This Ford worker called the president a “pedophile protector” because the president vowed to release the Epstein files and then did not. Thus, protecting the pedophiles contained therein.
His opinion is THE most important opinion in the world, maybe the entire universe. Who can stop him at this point? Not Congress or the Courts apparently.
If someone in congress or the courts grows a spine
How will they enforce it at this point? I’m honestly not sure if he wants a second Civil War, WW III, or both.
He wants, yes. He wants any one of these things so he can invoke the insurrection act.
If I were 10 or 15 yrs older I’d consider cashing everything out and emmigrating. Of course, nowhere is safe anymore. Pax Americana has ended.
It’s modern robber barons. It’s more like the 1870s-1890s than ever. Sadly it’s more global now
Second Civil War? You’re thinking of Governor Walz.
All my life, I have been told that the second American Civil War would be started by white male gun owners like me.
In Minneapolis, the second American Civil War is apparently being started by the very same people who told me that for the last 40 years.
I don’t want this site to turn into political infighting. I travel throughout this Nation for my job regularly. My observed experience is, we all have more in common than differences. I could likely sit in your dining room, or you mine, over a couple of beers and agree on many of the issues facing us. We may disagree on degree of severity, or the best solution, but we see the same things. I know rural America has different needs/wants than urban America. Unfortunately, our political class has seen fit to try to divide us. The world is not black and white, it is full of shades of grey. It seems moderation and compromise are now four letter words. Avoid the inflamatory speech.
If enough in the majority party in congress (the republicans right now) grow a spine, they could rein him in at least somewhat. They won’t do that though. If democrats win control of congress come the midterms, they’ll also be able to rein him in a bit. SCOTUS, however…I fear that’s going to go Trump’s/the republicans’ way for a decade or more
1st Amendment. Its a thing. Discretion my ass
I have every right to insult my boss’s mother under the First Amendment. And under employment law, he has every right to fire my ass for it. And if I insult my customers mother and it gets back to him, even more so.
Bingo. It applies to State, not private action.
Hooray for the Working Man. Politician gets cheers.
I recall the uproar over Paula Deen years ago… No she was not denied her First Amendment rights. Her (non-government) employer wished to disavow her very public statements and fire her. That is their right. She was NOT censored, threatened, or imprisoned by the Federal or State Governments. Her own actions had consequences, yes. But they were NOT the result of Governmental action.
FAFO
Yeah, employee gets suspended, politician gets…probably kudos from someone. Some people have RDS-Reality Derangement Syndrome.
I’m liking the Mazda3 2.5S for a base trim, for the same $24-25K as the Civic. You’re limited on paint colors and get an all-black only interior, but the 2.5-liter engine and geared transmission are going to be world’s nicer than the anemic CVT moaner in the Honda.
I don’t get why Mazda doesn’t offer the manual in the base 3 hatch, only the Premium.
Take rate, I’m guessing. Same reason manuals are disappearing everywhere. Honda eliminated it altogether from normal trims of the Civic.
Well I was doing my part to fight the slow death of manual Japanese cars – I bought one of the last of the manual Impreza hatchbacks, one of the last LX Civic manuals, and the last non-Type R Civic hatchback manual.
You’re a good man. What did you think of the manual transmission in the last-gen Civic LX? I had heard that Honda really reduced the tight, precise shifter feel in the final Accord manuals. Same with the non-Si Civic?
Pretty nice, it’s not as slick as the one in the NA Miata but nothing is. I like it better with the 1.5T in my Sport Hatch than the 2.0 in the LX.