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Okay great, but what were the names and publications of the journos who told you not to write about this?
Yeah we all appreciate our transparency now a days and it would have been a great read on the old site but in the grand scheme of things if it made you some kind of industry pariah it would have done us all a much bigger disservice.
Should have you wrote about it? Idk. I feel like Autopian Torch would. And I guess did? Different subject but carbon fiber driveshafts remind me of bike snobs opinion on carbon bikes which is basically something like there’s no reason to buy one. If you are so good that you need one, someone else will buy it for you and pay you to ride it. I feel the same about plastic driveshafts.
I enjoy everything that you write Jason. 🙂
Ages ago, I was at some Automotive Tech Center for a project. We ended up looking inside the building that they tested their driveshafts in. The building was made from cinderblock and the entire inside of the testing room had shrapnel holes in the cinder block.
Outside the room, they had the wreckage of some of the driveshafts that they were testing. One of them was made from cardboard. It looked like the tube that a carpet was manufactured onto. And it was all covered with a thin aluminium sheet. It had been tested to failure.
No real point to the story other than I think it was really cool to see.
I’m reminded of Mercedes’s article about not getting invited to RV shows.
That’s probably the main reason one would counsel against writing about it, right?
More than several decades ago, I worked at a company that developed and manufactured stealth coatings. These were complex and difficult materials to create. I had an idea to improve the manufacturing process and it worked like a charm. However, the resulting material was unstable against static discharge. (This was discovered by the tech making the material. It discharged when he slid the material, a coating on plastic, off the metal drum. Fortunately, he was just scared and did not suffer any harm.) The reasons are beyond the scope of this discussion. Ironically, this behavior was developed as a solution to another manufacturing problem in a related industry. We only discovered the problem after delivering a half-dozen rolls of the material. Fortunately, we quickly discovered a solution to the problem. We worked over several nights to remake the material. We never explained to the customer why we insisted upon exchanging the material. I don’t think that was unethical, since we caught it before it was ever used. I used to wonder whether a less ethically run company would have taken the chance with the original material.
So the material was used like a wrap to lay over the object? Once it was applied would static/electric buildup still be an issue or was it protected by a coating?
It would have been protected by another coating or layer, but it would not have been conductive. I don’t know the answer, but did not want to take the chance.
The question is should be more like, is this news or is it just sensationalism? Stuff breaks, in a production car maybe the word needs to go out, but no matter how balanced your article, you still put the keyword EXPLODE on it, and that I feel is leaning in the wrong direction.
I think with the RV industry there seems to be a deep dishonesty about the importance of quality. With the driveshaft, maybe the story is how it didn’t kill anyone.
Agreed. One of the benefits (as I am sure you know) of carbon fiber is that the failure mode is just fibers kind of coming apart. You are far less likely to get launched into the air.
So, I am vehemently agreeing with you. The article could have said, “Driveshaft failed in a manner expected, resulting in zero injuries and limited vehicle damage.”
I guess it doesn’t quite roll off the tongue 🙂 And, they need those clicks.
Damn the man, they do.
“… both my livers …” This is why I subscribe. Obviously.
I would happily trade you one of my livers for a swath of newborn lamb perineum
I would have imagined it was something like, “this looks a certain way but knowing more context changes how it should be talked about”…it sounds more like this is indeed “maybe just don’t mention that, wouldn’t want to make someone upset”. Deferring was the right choice without experience…but the experienced journalists telling people not to write about it? Maybe not.
I won’t make a strong judgement against whoever said it though. I don’t have a career to lose and I’ve got less experience than Jason did.
Don’t beat yourself up about it, Torch. At the time, you were a newbie. Think of it as not having vs. having tenure.
I’ve done a lot of dumb things and have seen how bad things can get ripped apart when a driveshaft breaks that I’ve always considered the carbon driveshaft in the RX8’s I’ve raced more of a safety thing. (Only CF one I’ve had experience with and it’s roughly when Ford was borrowing a lot from Mazda so they may even be the same part.) It’s surreally lightweight to pick up, and I feel like if it goes horribly wrong I’ll probably just get a bruise on my shoulder and need a new helmet instead of decapitated. If it is the same driveshaft, then WTF were they thinking adapting a high rpm low torque engine’s driveshaft to a high torque low rpm engine.
Don’t most high power cars just need a captive system to keep the driveshaft in place in case of failure?
Mustangs in particular, S197s and later more so, had a bit of a reputation of putting driveshafts through the floor pan when people removed the speed governors. People found out the hard way that it was more than just the speed rating of the OEM tires as to why that governor existed.
Mustangs are built to enough of a price where I remember even post-refresh S197 Boss 302s didn’t have a dead pedal as a cost savings measure.
My understanding is that catastrophic failure usually results from the front end of a shaft breaking loose and dropping into the ground, and being pushed back into the vehicle.
Disastrous with low power, worse with more torque.
Track rated driveshafts and safety loops to contain them are production items for a reason.
Whether carbon is a good choice for a driveshaft, the more power you get from an engine, the less it can be protected from error.
Both of my highest power engines can easily overheat the pistons, if I use them carelessly.
In that respect, pretty hard for a manufacturer to dumbass proof a drivetrain.
You should survive to regret it though.
We’re very likely seeking different goals as I generally prefer 30 minute + races instead of a drag strip, but almost all of the failures I see are at the rear joint to the differential, or the carrier bearing in the middle if it has one. Floor pans don’t have a chance against a drive shaft at 6K rpm, but fortunately many manufacturers reinforce where the seatbelt attaches in the same place as any joint or reinforces it in some other way.
I’m assuming you’re coming from a drag perspective, and in my opinion a carbon fiber driveshaft isn’t optimal past 4-500ish hp. It starts to act as a spring too much. I think a thick walled aluminum one is best for a purpose built car, but steel is almost always the best option if durability or longevity matters.
Drag technology is useful as they have precise measures of ultimate loads.
Not that different in some respects, as better suspensions have become more common, as stability is a good thing.
Drag cars can rear steer in a dramatic fashion the first time if you’re not used to it.
And not uncommon for road racers to practice on a strip to find tune their launch skills. My road race car was tested that way.
Yes, generally drag racing hits those limits more often, and better suppliers do the math.
Some warranty their products, and will replace a broken part with the next stronger option.
I think balance may be as important as strength.
In my case, the driveshaft is a pure racing part, built for longevity.
Light steel alloy and built for more power than it has.
It’s a street legal custom with very little in stock drivetrain parts, with the focus on road racing.
My turbodiesel has more power, enough that the warning is to not drive it like a racecar.
I think I might check out the driveshaft for safety loops, but it’s an over built drivetrain to start with.
If I’ve missed any risks in driveshaft issues, I hope to find out.
I was under the impression that carbon fibre was very stiff? Or is it that a CF driveshaft is so much thinner than an equivalent steel one that it ends up less stiff?
(eta It looks like torsional stiffness is something that can be ‘tuned’ by changing the manufacturing process)
Yep, that failure is generally what happens.
However there’s no safety loop on any Mustang rolling out of a showroom. My point wasn’t even people adding more power, and also nothing to do with carbon driveshafts, but that Mustangs have always had some notoriety for putting driveshaft through the floor.
Again, what I specifically mentioned were people simply removing the speed governor and then seeing how fast it’d go. The governor existed for two reasons: Some cars rolling off the showroom floor with only H-rated tires, and past 130mph the driveshaft comes loose.
There definitely should be safety gear on a certain level of car, but I was referring to the aftermarket parts.
There have always been cars that could easily produce more power.
I can’t understand how anyone seriously interested in performance can be unaware of the upgrades required with more power, and how easy it is to do now.
You can buy a bolt on mustang suspension that is highly capable.
I have seen it though, focus on power and not much else.
While this is all true while it is in it functional form, once it fails it can revert to it’s former fibrous state, which will result in lots of very sharp strands, covered in resin. I can imagine that would be VERY bad to get hit with. As long as the failure points aren’t the composite itself this is all true. I just have this image of thousands of carbon fiber strands as a spinning wheel of death.
The nice thing about the thousands of fine threads is that they shouldn’t have the mass or structure behind them to punch through the floorboard. I remember my B5 A4 had a carbon fiber driveshaft, and it wasn’t advertised at all, because it was simply a safety feature.
Fair point! That does make me feel better.
I have been to many track days. S197 Mustangs do not show up to track days often. But when they do, they will, without exception, end up in a wall at some point. Maybe a CF driveshaft explosion is the cause.
…or, hear me out, it was Ford’s divination that thought exploding the drive shaft would save countless bros the humiliation of taking out the spectators leaving a Cars and Coffee meetup.
“Good carbon fiber”, Jason mused, casually thrusting a fist into a bucket of clams, “But certainly not great carbon fiber.”
You are doing this right.
I don’t see why you can’t write about it, as long as you don’t identify anyone specifically.
The more things change, the more they stay the same, I guess.
OH MY GOD! Tell me more about the cough drop factory!
Hi! My name is Mike! And I work, in a cough drop factory!
(pointing my finger incessantly onto a imaginary cough drop extrusion button)
I’ve got a wife, a dog, and a family!
I know! Way to bury the lede, Torch!
99% of the time you have to take the side of the reader, and any journalist who reflexively jumps to the conclusion that it’s not news is on the wrong side of the journalist/publicist divide.
If it’s an issue of true national security or the lives of kids are at stake, sure, a reporter should slow their roll. But that’s 1% of the time.
This is the same mentality as the DC journalists like Ben Smith who rushed to diminish the ridiculous ethical breach of Olivia Nuzzi sexting with RFK Jr. while she was reporting on him. There’s a stupid creed that it’s more important to circle the wagons around anyone they consider a part of the club than it is to do the job they signed up for.
You’re not there to make friends. Just do your jobs.
A pure journalistic approach is critical or adversarial, by default, but writing about cars and racing is often the same as writing about the entertainment industry, though the size makes it a manufacturing and political player as well.
The press and auto marketers need each other, so each person has to make those decisions about what they write.
“Character is what you are, in the dark.”
Time to blow this thing wide open, name names, and get to the bottom of Shaftgate once and for all!
(The background music of Shaft shilling in my head.)
Shut yo mouth!
I’m just talkin about CF driveshaft
we can dig it
That is absolutely something you write about. Firstly you write about it because it’s Ford, and Ford shit blowing up is the kind of thing that Ford generally tries to bury and fuck that with a knobbly dildo. Ford shit blowing up is getting inches, column inches you pervert what kind of inches did you think I meant, and if they don’t like it then maybe they should test more before bolting it under Mustangs, Pintos or whatever.
If Ford throws a hissy that people are still giving them shit about the whole Pinto debacle, the incomparable hypocrisy with which they underscored the whole thing by the foregoing – and until the debacle itself, unsuspected – “Ford memo” is their own damn fault. Yeah, you’ll pay for that for a long goddamn time, and whose fault is that?
Secondly you write about it because even if it came about as a result of gross abuse that is on the ragged edge of edge cases, you know there’s burnout bros out there that are going to do exactly the same and maybe they should get a heads-up of some kind before they blow up their Ford shit. It points up that maybe some techs aren’t quite ready for prime time, or maybe should be steered more toward the lesser echelons and tried-and-true aluminum continues to hold sway when the numbers get big. Whatever.
And finally you write about it because you’re a goddamn journalist. Your whole job is to write shit down, the real shit as it happens, not do what other journalists or even the hosting “source” tells you. I’m sick to death of getting approved and sanitized releases that are slightly tweaked by the media and then fed to us as pre-chewed pablum. Screw that. I want FACTS, not FODDER.
I want JASON FUCKING TORCHINSKY and his WEIRD ASS PERSPECTIVE, I want HOLY BALLS A BRAND FUCKING NEW MUSTANG JUST UP AND SHAT ITSELF AT A PRESSER, HERE’S PIX, that ‘s a headline that has classic Torch all over it. If the manufacturer doesn’t like that well, maybe don’t grind out half-assed cars. If they have to be shamed into doing better, shame them!
You’re one of the bastions of the free press, Torch! Hold the line!
gosh, exploding driveshafts, kick-backs, weak holes in tender documents, favoritism nepotism, official purposeful distortions, fake sh**, half-truths – you name it, there are thousands of times where you – autojourno – or any other professional – are confronted with a moral dilemma of varying degree and you put yourself on the block. If not professionally, maybe personally (you know what you saw). I wish everybody best of luck on their calls and personally can only say, be true to yourself. And ark with the consequences of your actions, recognize responsibility, and don’t blame others.
That said, its only a driveshaft ffs. uhum. Sorry for the heavy load here but I just got boned. Retrospective is divine. Should’ve called it.
Yeah, major part failure is newsworthy. You could have said how it was being abused, but that seems like something people should know.
I’m sure the other “journalists” were more worried about not getting the next invite.
That sounds pretty accurate
The TFL effect.
That’s exactly it, following an unspoken, but well-understood, code of what you shall and shan’t say lest your invitations get lost in the mail from now on
Automakers have revoked media test drives and loaner cars for a lot less than reporting on a failed driveshaft, Subaru revoked the Truth About Cars’ access over their criticism of the Benign Tribeca’s grille design
I’d be tempted to call the no-more-invites thing the Mercedes effect, but the rest of the industry would probably not interpret it correctly. You know, the whole thing with Mercedes getting blackballed by certain RV manufacturers. Or are we not supposed to talk about that here?
You beat me to it!
I wonder if one of the journos managed to ding the driveshaft on something, which weakened it and caused it to explode later.
Given that 12 years have passed and this carbon fiber driveshaft is among the exulted pantheon of Ford components that have NOT been subject to a recall, I think you’re good.
And that’s why we love it here.
Yep, article and comments all quite delightful.