Good morning! Today, we’re going to look at a couple of cars that aren’t putting their best face forward. But is beauty, or lack threreof, really only skin-deep? We’ll see.
I was needlessly cruel to you yesterday, making you choose between two truly awful early 80s luxury cars. I thought the voting could go either way on this one, and in fact, it was pretty close. The Cadillac Seville won, but only by a handful of votes.
There really wasn’t a good answer here; I know that. Lots of you said “neither” and sat this one out, but as we all know, that’s not how the game is played. I think I’d take the Chrysler, solely for the reason that there is no piece of automotive trim I hate more than a fake convertible top.
All right, let’s check out a couple of fast cars in need of new front bumpers.
1995 Pontiac Firebird – $5,000
Engine/drivetrain: 383 cubic inch overhead valve V8, six-speed manual, RWD
Location: Collegeville, PA
Odometer reading: 94,000 miles
Operational status: All the ad says is “starts and runs.”
Firebirds, Camaros, and Mustangs (oh my) are often thought of as “fast” cars. But the reality is that the majority of them sold over the years weren’t the famous fast versions; they were four- and six-cylinder pretenders, with all of the style and not much of the substance. But that doesn’t mean they always stay that way; plenty of these cars had their engines swapped for something more potent. This base-model Firebird would have originally come with a 3.4 liter V6, but it has a bit more than that now.
The classic Chevrolet small-block V8 was meant to be modified from the start; Chevy sent early production versions of the engine to Edelbrock and others to see what they could make of it. And hot rodders haven’t stopped tweaking the engine for more power since. What we have here is a common twist on the classic 350 architecture: the “383 stroker.” Take a 350, install a crankshaft from a 400 small-block that increases the stroke from 3.48 inches to 3.75 inches, and you end up with a displacement of 383 cubic inches and an absolute mountain of torque. It spins the rear axle, and rear tires no doubt, through a Tremec T56 six-speed manual, which I assume has had its annoying 1st-to-4th “skip shift” feature disabled.
The gigantic aftermarket tach and shift light seem to be the only modifications inside. Everything else looks like standard-issue Firebird, and in pretty good shape. The seller says they replaced the power window motors recently, and re-sealed the T-tops (yes, it has them). One thing I don’t know is whether the air conditioning compressor stuck around after the engine swap; lots of folks fooishly don’t consider it important, and leave it out after a swap. It’s awfully crowded in that engine bay, and I can’t see whether it’s there or not.
Outside, it looks pretty good, except for the front end. What is that? Is that fire damage? Or some chemical spill? What would eat away the paint, but leave the plastic? I guess you could repaint it, or replace the whole bumper cover, or – hear me out – leave it as-is, and tell people it’s so fast that the paint got scorched from the friction.
2004 Volkswagen Golf GTI – $4,499
Engine/drivetrain: 2.8-liter overhead cam V6, six-speed manual, FWD
Location: Northwood, PA
Odometer reading: 125,000 miles
Operational status: Runs and drives well
The GTI has always been the fast version of VW’s Golf hatchback, but over the years the horsepower gap between Golf and GTI grew quite a lot. The original GTI had a little more power than a standard Rabbit, just enough to make good use of its lower gearing. By 2004, the GTI came in two flavors: fast (180 horsepower 1.8T) and faster (200 horsepower VR6). This is the latter, which was only available with a six-speed manual, like the hot-hatch gods intended.
The VR6 is the sort of engine only Volkswagen could make, a V6 with a narrow 15 degree angle between the cylinder banks, close enough that it can cover both banks with a single cylinder head. It’s a complicated engine, but it has turned out to be pretty reliable over the years, certainly more so than the 1.8T. The seller claims it recently had its timing belt replaced, but I think they’re confused; the VR6’s camshafts are chain-driven. Hopefully, they’re not as confused when they say it runs and drives great.
This is the era in which Volkswagen tried to make its lower-end cars seem high-end, with soft-touch plastics inside that disintegrate and get gross after a while. I think these are the ones that smell like crayons inside when it’s hot out, too. The interior photos in this ad are lousy, so I can’t really tell you much about its condition, but I do see the typical wear on the driver’s seat bolster.
This one needs a new front bumper cover as well, but it’s pretty obvious what happened to it. It doesn’t look like the headlights or grille are damaged, and hopefully the bumper structure is all right as well. The rest of it looks fine, though of course it’s worth looking underneath and making sure it isn’t rusty, considering it’s a Pennsylvania car.
Some cars are born speedy, and others have speediness thrust upon them. Here we have one of each: a factory hot-rod Volkswagen, and a home-brewed Pontiac. I guess the question is which one you trust more.
The GTI’s issues seem mostly cosmetic, and seems like it would be a good basis for a project if you’re into that. There’s almost no info provided on the Firebird, and who knows how well or badly the mods were done.
The guy that bought that Firebird then is the same guy that buys it now, just wishing he was the guy that he was when it was new. No thank you. I had an 84 for 2 years and if it taught me anything, it’s that the death of Pontiac came too late. It’s a terrible looking, driving and feeling car. Great motor, terrible everything else.
The VW at least I know what I’m getting into. It’s a little expensive, but with about 1k you could get that thing looking and driving really well, and it would be worth a tremendous (ok about 2k) amount more. Easy choice today.
The firebird bumper/nose calls out for a glossy red Rolling Stones lips and tongue logo.
I’d take neither as both are sure to have been vigorously abused.
GTI is probably the safer choice by far and I would normally not even look twice at anything with and LTI motor, but the MSD and Moser Rear makes me think this thing has some expensive parts I could sell or use elsewhere and recoup my costs. as it is, I would through a Bra on that thing and drive it as is for a bit.
The GTI is just ugly, all hot hatches generally are, though I do kind of laugh as the hatch on the Fireturd, kind of make it a really hot hatch.
T-tops > hard top
Anything > VAG
@Mark Sanfilippo Tucker, IMHO any mention of the narrow angle, single cam cover VF6 should reference the Lancia Fulvia engine. They were the first, and it’s a very interesting engine, worthy of an article on its own.
In fact that would be an interesting showdown–narrow angle front wheel drive sedans–Jetta vs Fulvia Berlina.
Check out subito.it for options.
PS, I’ll take the VW.
Fulvia for me, please!
I’ve driven two Fulvia Berlinas but couldn’t justify the purchases at the time. If you really want one, check out subito.it.
At this point, I want something, anything, more interesting than what I have.
Why are we assuming the Firebird originally had a V6? If it did, it wouldn’t have had the T56, and if it were swapped I doubt the guy would have gone to the trouble to source the six-speed shift map badge. Also, a swapped V8-into-V6 car probably wouldn’t have the factory airbox retrofitted so nicely, but stranger things have happened I guess. Most likely this was a Formula with the V8 originally, that’s my guess.
In any case, it’s somehow not all beat up inside so for sure I’ll take the big V8 with the loud noises. Anecdotally nice six-speed versions of this generation are getting hard to find. I can put some chassis bits on it and have a track rat I’m not afraid of hurting. But I’m gonna paint it black first, because ew.
I had this exact same car. It was a Firebird Formula, though it said as much in body color script on the lower front of the doors. Certainly it is also why I hate LT1’s with a passion. Either way though, if it were an actual number original manual formula firebird, it does have potential for collectability at some point I suppose. and this one seems to have some work done around the LTI optispark problem area. Just know, there are very few parts for that engine still around. Many of the basic parts are bespoke to the the reverse flow motor and honestly at this point most of us hate them.
I had the same thought, though none of the Formula script is present on the car. I’m still trying to figure out what is going on with the shift boot, as it should come up and over the exposed console clips right in front of the ash tray and cup holder.
I should note that the V6 to V8 swap is pretty easy on these cars, especially if you have a donor. Both 4th gens I’ve owned were factory V8 cars, but I’ve helped with the swap and the hardest part (assuming you have a lift) is the wiring harness. My money is on that someone had a nicely built Trans Am that got wrecked and then they sold it to someone who swapped the running gear over to this car, which was likely a V6 car since those are cheap and plentiful for such purposes.
Was thinking the same thing. I was always a fan of the Formula for the sleeper aspect – everyone assumed it was a V6. Even with the hood open at the track, someone walking by asked me how the V6 ran.
I don’t know why anyone would swap in a LT unless maybe it was in a wrecked car they already had. I knew a guy who dropped a built LT1 into a ’00 V6 body for that reason.
I loved the LS, but the LT1 sounded better, more like a traditional SBC.
I’ve owned a 98 M6 and still have a ’00 A4. M6 was more fun when driven in anger, the A4 is a better cruiser.
I am genetically unable to grow a mullet, so no Fireturd for me, give me the Ballin’ Bunny. That VR6 makes up for a lot of sins when you get on it and make it sing.
One of my coworkers back in the day had a Firebird in that exact color with the V6. He had a mullet. Were you even allowed to buy one of those cars without one?
I think there was a waiver you could sign if you really wanted one without a mullet. I think you had to promise you’d let your hair get greasy, but I’ll leave interpretation of the provisions up to a contract attorney.
in the 80’s, no. But it had to be an Iroc Camaro. The T/A-Fireturd F-Body was higher class, you had to have long glam rocker hair all around.
I suppose the real definition of “IROC” is far too politically incorrect to be said here today… 😉
I had a ’94 Firebird and it felt like there was a hinge in the center of the body and the whole thing would reverberate up and down on every bump. I replaced all the suspension bushings with polyurethane bushings hoping to improve it, but it just made it worse.
But I’ll take it anyways. V8, manual transmission, rear wheel drive.
Mine was pretty sloppy on the gas around a corner. it always felt like it was on ice compared to event he previous gen F body set up.
I’ll go to my grave saying the 3rd gens handled better. I had a ’88 GTA WS6, and that thing felt so much more surefooted than my ’00.
When they were new, Car and Driver ranked the 3rd gen the best handling car in America.
Subframe connectors were key. I didn’t have them on my hardtop Z28, but immediately put them on my T-top Trans Am and it made a world of difference on the 4th gens. Not only did if make the cowl shake dramatically less, but there were less leaks from those stupid T-tops and the doors opened and closed far easier too.
That’s probably what I should have done instead of the bushings.
On 3rd gens, if you hot rod the engine without adding subframe connectors, it will break the windshield.
They are what they are. Cheap fun. I wouldn’t mind having another one.
It’s too bad VW persisted with the 2-door Golf after the Mk3, I can’t unsee how lost and overstyled the relationship between the taillight wrapover/rear bumper cover/hatch shut are without the rear door shutline they’re meant to parallel. Should’ve gone four-door only at that point.
The Firebird is interesting, but I worry that it will be a horror show of someone else’s project to maintain. With the GTI I know roughly what I am getting.
Maybe, but parts are still stupid cheap for those cars, with plenty of them being parted out on Marketplace.
Picked the VW because I’m always scared of someone’s project car, especially when it was the neighbor’s project and they gave up on it and bought something else.
And I’m kinda curious about the VR6.
This is a tough one. I had two different 84 Camaros back in the day and had fun with both. Both were 305 4bbl autos and the only reason I had two was I moved to New Orleans after the Navy in 91 and the red one didn’t have a/c as an option from the factory. I got out of the car and said what have I done?
I managed to find an almost identical car with a/c so my insurance didn’t budge. Just change the VIN and color from red to white.
But eventually I went import and that VW sounds like fun. I went for the GTI.
Funny, the VW is currently winning by 6 votes but the comments are 100% Firebird. C’mon GTI fans! Justify yourselves!
As others have said, stroked SBC+t-tops+pop-ups! What’s not to love! Just add some flame graphics around the bare spot on the nose and ditch those god-awful 15″ wheels for a wheel/tire combo with a bit less sidewall.
This is my favorite looking generation of the Golf, and least favorite looking generation of the Chicken, so I voted Golf.
I trust that particular Firebird less than the GTI so that’s how I voted.
Firebird seems kinda like trashy fun, but there would be work involved – not only on the nose, but maybe the wheels and tires too. Maybe it’s me, but I don’t see how this thing can steer without hitting the wheel wells.
I had a ’95 Trans Am WS6, and I kinda miss it. Firebird for me.
Lusted after a WS6 (or a Firehawk) in High School. Was it as fun as my imagination?
It was glorious. It had headers and the cat was deleted, so it really brought the thunder. The crazy thing was, it was a great highway cruiser, too! You could set the cruise to 80mph, crank up the AC, and it would blast down the freeway getting 27mpg!
When you go to replace whatever might be broken in the Jetta only to make it worse when every plastic part crumbles in your hand you’ll wish you’d chosen the redneck Pontiac you turned down after seeing that horrible stance in person.
V8, manual transmission, t-tops, pop-up headlights… I can feel my mullet growing back already. The only way it could be more nostalgic is if it came with my high school girlfriend and the Van Halen t-shirt she never gave back.
My knuckles ache just looking at both of these cars, I voted Firebird just to say it’s been through the fire already, but I’m dumping it as soon as it needs anything more major than an oil change.
The amusing thought exercise for me is trying to imagine how bad the Firebird would need to be for me to pick a Mk IV VW over it.
The answer is “far, far worse than this one”.
If I were looking for a daily, the GTI would be an easy pick.
However, I’m not looking for a daily and I’ve never owned a FWD. So we’re going with the FireChicken today. I can already picture the irresponsible smokey donuts in random parking lots.
I’d go Firebird. Find an artist friend to paint the front of the car to look like a geode. Name the car “Geodude”.
I’ll say this, that Firebird interior is in better shape than any of the Firebirds I spent time in… almost 20 years ago now? I always figured GM of this era held their interior bits together with Elmers based on how ramshackle and borderline disassembled every Firebird interior was.
Saw the Firebird and immediately thought “paint wear from trying to break the speed of sound”. Read article, same point made.
Sure the 4th gens are uncomfortable and poorly built but I love t-tops so anything with that feature is an immediate win for me.
4th gen F-bodies are apparently controversial around here but I’m an unapologetic fan of them. $5k is not a lot of money for what looks like a lot of car, er, motor. Sure the interior will rattle on a glass road and there’s more plastic inside than a Fisher Price factory but I don’t care. It would be a hoot and despite what some say these actually handle better than people think. Plus that green is peak ‘90s.
At this price point, assuming it’s healthy, when you’re tired of the Firebird you have a donor drivetrain ready to drop into just about anything.
I’m with you. I love 4th gens; in fact I still have a ’00 Formula that I bought in ’07.
Reading all these pro-Fbody comments makes me want to get it back on the road.
I went Firebird. Looks like it’d be a blast to drive.