The third quarter looks to be unsurprisingly great for automakers in general, and electric cars in particular. At least in the United States, where an expiring tax credit has forced the fence-sitters into the market. Automakers are going to be reporting big numbers and then bracing for impact.
How hard that impact will be is going to depend a lot on the mix of powertrains those automakers can offer. As regular readers of The Morning Dump already know, we’re in the second year of the Year of the Hybrid and the first year of the Decade of the EREV, so hybrid automakers might be fine. Tarffis and everything else are going to be at play, of course, but one key factor will be electric incentives.
The rush to get cars out the door has probably pulled forward a lot of EV sales, which has less of an impact on companies that also sell a lot of vehicles with other powertrains (Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, et cetera), but a big impact on pure-EV automakers (Lucid, Tesla, Rivian, Polestar). In response to the sunsetting of the federal tax credit, Tesla has raised prices on its leases, though it’s also offering a $6,500 tax credit. With Tesla fighting a losing price war in Asia, how long can it keep that credit in place?
Hyundai is responding by lowering prices on its electric vehicles as well as offering its own credit. We already know that Ford and GM are pursuing a similar strategy. GM will report soon, but we already have data from Ford, Kia, and Hyundai. So far, they seem fairly resilient.
Companies that don’t primarily make electric cars can probably pump money indefinitely into the market by transferring profits, but how long can Tesla hold out?
The $6,500 Tesla Lease Credit ‘Is Subject To Change Or End At Any Time’
Corresponding with the end of the IRA Tax Credit at midnight last night, Tesla increased its lease prices (as many others noticed). It works out to about an 11% price increase for the Model Y and Model 3, or a range of about $50-$70, depending on trim and the specifics of where you live.
You might notice that 11% is not $7,500 worth of the value of a Model Y, which is $44,990 for a Long Range Rear-Wheel Drive model. While there may be many reasons why you wouldn’t want, or wouldn’t like a Model Y, that’s still a good deal.
Some of the price break seemingly comes from Tesla’s $6,500 lease credit, which you have to find buried in the fine print above. Here’s what it says:
Monthly lease payment already includes the $6,500 Tesla lease credit, which is subject to change or end at any time. Order does not guarantee eligibility.
At least when it comes to leasing, the loss of the tax credit is being partially offset by this subsidy for an unknown length of time. Tesla isn’t alone here, as both Ford and GM have attempted their own plan to extend the tax credit as long as they can. The difference is that Ford and GM are trying to use a quirk in the law to frontload the credit, and should that go away, both companies have robust gas and hybrid truck sales to offset some of the cost.
How does Tesla offset these costs? The company only makes electric cars, and its pickup truck is probably a money loser. It could try to counter with sales in other markets, and Europe, at least, isn’t a complete mess, as sales were up 20.5% in Denmark. Trying to counter losses in the US with gains in Denmark is a little like when my daughter used to ask me to sit on one side of the see-saw. China is the obvious one, as it’s a huge market with a bigger share of electric car purchases. Insurance data seems to show that Tesla sales probably dropped by 8% in Q3 there.
Tesla’s Q3 should look ok due to the big increase in sales in the United States, but can that increase match other automakers, or will it continue to lose share? Could Q3 be the quarter where Tesla’s sales drop below 1/3rd of the market?
This new paradigm will be interesting for the company as it’s suddenly not in a position where it has a lot of pricing power relative to the competition, at least if it wants to maintain any sort of margin. Will Tesla decide it wants to make money more than it needs to hit some sort of sales goal and pull those lease incentives? Will it blink first?
Hyundai Sales Hit A Record In Q3 As Company Extends Incentives, Lower Prices
Hyundai didn’t blink because, frankly, Hyundai is selling a ton of cars right now. Sure, there’s the ever-present tariff cost, but the company must think it can weather them fairly well for the moment.
With the end of the tax credit comes a big, 153% year-over-year increase in EV sales for Hyundai, contributing to a 14% increase overall and a new September sales record of 71,003 units.
Some of this comes down to strategy, as Hyundai offers a great mix of ICE, Hybrid, PHEV, and electric cars. It’s the dream, really, from a product standpoint. All it’s missing is a real truck (though I do really like the Santa Cruz, don’t get it twisted!). The biggest growth, besides EVs, comes with the excellent new Santa Fe and affordable vehicles like the Venue and Elantra.
When it comes to EVs, all models had strong months, but the Ioniq 5 was the standout, with a 152% year-over-year increase in September to 8,408 vehicles, putting it ahead of even the Palisade.
While this volume probably isn’t going to last after the expiration of the tax credit, the pricing should roughly stay in line with where it is now:
“September marked our strongest third quarter on record, fueled by a diverse product lineup, outstanding dealer support, and robust consumer demand,” said Randy Parker, president and CEO of Hyundai Motor North America. “As we move into October, we’re introducing new programs to keep our vehicles accessible, such as repositioning the 2025 IONIQ 5 with extended $7,500 cash incentives and offering up to $9,800 in price reductions on 2026 IONIQ 5 models, reinforcing Hyundai’s legacy of delivering exceptional value and support. While the $7,500 EV credit has expired, our electrification strategy has always extended beyond incentives. We invested in EV innovation well before the IRA and remain steadfast in our commitment to affordability, quality, and customer care.”
It sounds like Hyundai will just give you the $7,500 off a 2025 MY car, and will make the 2026 that much cheaper (or more), so it’s basically a wash.
Kia Has Another Great Month/Quarter, But Doesn’t Promise Incentives
While Kia remains a little behind Hyundai, both saw a lot of growth in September. For Kia, total sales were up 11% to 65,507 units. Quarterly sales also hit an all-time record at 219,637 units.
EV9 sales are still down YTD, but up almost 50% in the month of September. The same is basically true for the EV6, although the September increase in sales wasn’t quite as strong.
Let’s focus on what’s actually important: Kia Carnival sales are up 85% so far YTD. In September, Kia sold more Carnivals than K5s, Souls, Niros, Seltos, EV9s, or EV6s (individually, not collectively). Hell yeah. Hybrid vans for everyone.
What’s interesting is that Kia didn’t make any announcements about countering the loss of the tax credit, though I expect the company will do something.
Ford Keeps Selling A Curiously High Number Of Broncos
The Jeep Wrangler will probably outsell the Ford Bronco again this year, but damn if it ain’t gonna be closer than I’d have guessed a couple of years ago. The new Bronco is my personal preference when it comes to this class of trucks (in spite of Autopian leadership’s obvious Jeep fascination), so I’m not selling the vehicle short. It’s just that Wrangler and 4Runner have such a strong brand, and Bronco just jumped right in there.
According to Ford’s latest sales release, total sales were up 9.1% for the quarter for Ford and down 7.6% for Lincoln, which probably has something to do with one of its vehicles being a Chinese import.
Blah blah EV sales, Mach-E, people love hybrids, yada yada, Maverick.
Ford sold 109,921 Broncos this year (full bar Broncos, not Bronco Sports), which is up a crazy 42.9% YTD. I’d also add that Ford, via Ford Pro, is saying it increased subs by about 30% to 815,000 paid software subscribers. Is Ford quietly the one automaker that is actually a technology company? I gotta think about that some more.
The Mach-E is good for what it is, but less competitive if it’s not cheaper than offerings from Hyundai and Tesla, so I assume the company will need to continue to pump incentives into that platform to keep it selling after the tax credit loophole finally closes.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
As previously stated, TMD is a pro-Kelly Clarkson operation. In honor of today’s news and this week’s theme, here’s Kelly Clarkson with “Stronger (What Doesn’t Kill You).”
The Big Question
How bad are Stellantis sales going to be in Q3?
Top Photo: Tesla
Ste-who?
STELLA!
Oh hi mark.
Doesn’t Tesla also lose a pile of cash from the discontinuation of carbon offsets this year, now that everybody can pollute with impunity?
Yup! It’s a lot of things all happening at once that are not great for Tesla.
Out Standing in a Field
I’d wager everything but Ram will fall flat on its face, and it won’t because of that stupidly junk Hemi. IIRC, Stellantis reported that the ’25s were outselling the ’24s YTD, despite no Hemi. Until dealerships get Hemi’s, I’m sure they’ll keep a small YTD increase.
In addition to the loss of the EV tax credit, Tesla also has to worry about the changes to the CAFE standards reducing the need for companies to buy their carbon credits, I believe. My guess is, their business is not profitable without these credits.
Sounds like that CEO of theirs needs a raise to incentivize him to magically fix all this!
Tesla benefits from most EV sales. They make a decent amount of money at the superchargers, so that will keep increasing as EV sales increase
Tesla has had several years where their net profits exceeded their income from credits, so they are able to be profitable without them. Last I saw though (a few months ago), this year the credits have been exceeding their net profits.
Broncos have had a lot of incentives this year, so I’m not surprised that sales are up.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Stellantis highlights truck sales. Some dealers have lowed the costs that it almost looks like a real price and some people are biting. Other then that I don’t think there will be much to highlight but lots of bury. The continued sale of cjdr dealers to Carvana really says it all.
I’d love to see in the sales figures that somehow Stellantis somehow sold twenty old PT Cruisers and Calibers that were still somewhere in dealer inventory.
And at least one Dart.
Let’s be real here.
Two Darts?
Oops– I was thinking Hornet, which is still in production, and was joking that they didn’t sell even one.
I saw one! For real! In the flesh! So they must have sold one.
Rumor has it the one you saw was only out of the dealer for a test drive.
And that it was actually on a lunch run for the finance manager…
Does the Hornet still exist in practical terms? Outside of the initial launch when our local dealers had a bunch they struggled to move, they’re now completely missing from every lot. Seriously, not one for sale within 100 miles of here.
I’m trying to think of a more extreme flop of a product by a mainstream brand. I can’t.
They had loads and loads of them all over the holding lots at the Port of Baltimore last summer, they must have been sent somewhere, because they had to make room to hold more of them there
Ah, one of the classic blunders; NEVER get involved in a price war in Asia
But only slightly less well-known is this: “Never go in against a South-African when politics is on the line”!
Inconceivable
I had to look up what Ford Pro is, and it sounds like it’s basically an asset management system for fleets. Which is a thing that has existed for a long time and does not involve subscribing to remote start or heated seats, so I think I’m okay with this.
As the owner of a new Bronco Heritage I picked up in June, and test driving both the Bronco and the Wrangler, hands down the Bronco is the better vehicle. Better equipped at the price point, better driving dynamics, and more space on the interior. And looks better in my opinion.
As an older YJ Jeep owner, I 100% agree. The JL Jeep also hasn’t been very reliable, while my parents have 40k trouble-free miles on their Bronco.
If I was actually in the market for something the Bronco is something to be considered. They are like ants here, everywhere you look, you see more.
In other Tesla News :
“Trop voyant, trop dangereux” : l’Europe ferme la porte au Cybertruck, et les raisons sont claires (msn.com)
Too Obvious, Too dangerous, Europe (through Germany) closes the door to the Cybertruck and the reasons are clear.
Hint : it requires a commercial truck driving license as it’s too heavy for a personal car, it’s too dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians with it’s sharp angles and bare metal, and it’s visible.
So even the Military Rednecks based in NATO Bases can’t bring their favorite Tesla toy on the Old Continent. That is unless they just want to have it sitting on their driveways, and in that case they will have to pay for the transport.
Did they ban the Hummer EV, Silverado EV, and Escalade IQ? Over 8k lbs is just too much.
The limit is at 2.5 metric tons for the gross weight (loaded)
As far as I can tell the Hummer EV a niche, like the previous Hummer was.
It’s too large for lots of country roads (especially about 90% of the ones that leads to ski resorts in the Alps) and most city centers, it’s too high to be in the car category at toll motorways (basically all French motorways) and is treated as a small truck there (much much more expensive), and the weight will also limit where it can go (if the width hasn’t done that before)
Oh and it’s going to be impossible to park it in any car park for all the above reasons. spending a few hours in Paris streets trying to find a parking place is not fun.
for the other two I can’t tell… I know there’s quite a few Hilux and assimilated trucks in the Alps (they are used by the ski resorts in summer for the maintenance of the equipment), but those are more normaly sized compare to what can be found on the roads, and they have a specific use.
I spent two weeks around the Paris area years ago, and the parking garage system with the license plate readers amazed me. I’d only seen something similar in the US once before, and it required moving the car so the plate could get read. The systems in Paris worked all the time.
Saw a couple of dusty Ferraris in some of those garages.
You think there’s many rednecks driving Teslas?
Our military is NOT “rednecks”.
The Bronco sales is crazy. Used prices have not dropped much and the incentives for new have gone away for the most part. I’m still waiting for an EV/Hybrid/PHEV/EREV/ Bronco, but it seems like they have no reason to change anything.
Well, I’m glad it isn’t just me – I was just telling my partner that I seem to be seeing a lot more Broncos around, especially Saquatch and Raptors.
I’ll never own another Jeep after I get rid of my current WL. I’ve had way to many issues with it. Wranglers have gotten cringy to the point of just being a six figure rolling meme at this point. All I see driving around are Rubicons that have been outfitted with every offroading and overlanding accessory imaginable yet there isn’t a scratch on any of it. They’re also covered in ducks.
Broncos have yet to succumb to this fate. Most I see are relatively stock and man, they look nice! If I didn’t have a 5k pound camping trailer to pull I’d be driving one.
“ Wranglers have gotten cringy to the point of just being a six figure rolling meme at this point. “
And owners who put on those stupid aftermarket angry grills aren’t helping things.
don’t forget the rubber ducks!
I’ve seen ducks on dashboards of Jeeps like Compass and Liberty. So funny that those models are devaluing the duck idea just like they devalued the Jeep brand.
Heres hoping it devalues it into oblivion.
Saw ducks on the dash of a Highlander. Shark jumped
I never thought Jeep buyers would take inspiration from the woman down the street from me with stuffed animals in the rear window of her sedan, whose bumper sticker says “Don’t Honk at Me, I’m Just a Little Baby”.
You need to move.
Ugh…I really need to proof my posts better.
The only Wranglers that catch my eye now are the extremely rare low trim, stock, 2-doors.
“How bad are Stellantis sales going to be in Q3?”
Stellantis is to 2025 as Atari is to 1983.
The only thing that comes to my mind is:
Day 1
of many things that we can be uncertain of. Am I scared? A little. Am I worried? I little more. Am I uncertain of our future? A lot. Grabbin’ my bootstraps now.
What US products does Stellantis even have anymore? I suppose there will always be a steady stream of idiots willing to finance RAMs over ridiculous terms to stick it to the libs, especially now that they’re doing the classic V8 bait and switch…but like, what do they have on offer that’s anywhere near the top of its class?
The Wrangler is ironclad, but other than that? The rest of the Jeep lineup is largely junk until the new Cherokee gets here, Chrysler sells a van that enthusiasts swear by but is definitely not as good as its competitors, Dodge has the flaming pile of garbage known as the Hornet, a terrible BEV muscle car that’s as big and heavy as a house, and a 20 year old crossover.
How are they trying to keep that crossover relevant? MUH V8, DUH! Everyone gets a V8 now. It’s a 25 year old V8 in a 20 year old SUV, but again…MUH! V! 8! *Clarkson impersonating an American voice* It’s got a V8 motor!
They can stay afloat a while longer by continuing to cram Hemis into everything and selling them to the Fox News crowd/enthusiasts but dear god almighty do they need some actual products already. I think a lot is riding on the six pack Charger and based on how many times it’s already been delayed/its ungodly heft I don’t think it’s going to come through for them.
What scalability does Stellantis’ American operations have to the rest of the world?
It appears near-zero.
I too, don’t understand what exactly they plan on, you know, selling. The fact that CJDR dealers are still waiting for a compact crossover to arrive in the form of the new Cherokee tells you everything you need to know.
This strategy of discontinuing models with no replacement and expecting customers to stick around is possibly the worst strategy we’ve ever seen from an automaker. This doesn’t even take into account that when Stellantis finally brings a model to the market, it’s typically hilariously uncompetitive (see Hornet).
I will defend my van though, the Pacifica/Voyager is still a solid and competitive van. But this has less to do with Stellantis keeping the van fresh, and more to do with competitors putting very little effort into redesigning their own vans (looking at you Honda).
“This strategy of discontinuing models with no replacement and expecting customers to stick around is possibly the worst strategy we’ve ever seen from an automaker.”
I second this. It’s completely asinine. If you have no replacement, keep the current one in production and maybe give it a mild update. Having something to sell is better than having nothing to sell.
And what’s really crazy is that when they keep old models around, they sell! Charger, 300, Durango, Caravan, Journey all stuck around longer than they intended but sold well for one reason or another. Hell, they’re still selling the Durango. But for the others? Cancelled with no replacement, even though you’d think they had plenty of time to think one up, given how long some of those cars stayed on the market.
It’s like Stellantis sets an alarm for when a model has been for sale for 10 years, to check on Jim and how he’s doing with a replacement.
Then they find out Jim died 6 years ago.
I just picture a number of people walking back into a CJDR dealer ready to trade in their…
Journey: Hey, here’s a 55k Grand Cherokee for you! You can afford that right? Want to make it 8 years?
Charger: We have… no cars. But how about a Durango with a Hemi for 65k! It’s like the same thing!
300: I know what you’re thinking RWD Mafioso sedan buyer… PACIFICA! You can fit 8 goombas into this thing!
“What US products does Stellantis even have anymore?”
Well they have Jeeps, some Rams (which should be Dodges), more Jeeps… and more Jeeps… a Chrysler and a Dodge… and more Jeeps… A Fiat… some more Rams (which should be Dodges) and more Jeeps.
For what it’s worth, when I type Fiat into Google, it auto-fills with “Warranty”.
But you’re forgetting the maserattis. There must be a lot of them, maybe eight or possibly even nine. And the other three Alfa Romeos.
Oh right… I forgot about those dozens of people who buy those vehicles..
Grand Cherokee sales have been steady and growing the past year, over 8% for the 4Xe models
They do sell a lot of GCs.
Wait, Fezzy, you’re alive?!
Hi-ya Budday.
Big Cat is trolling the banks of Tampa still, love to see it.
I will keep singing the same French song: 1) Stellantis owns Peugeot 2) the Peugeot lineup is well reviewed and chock full of hybrid options, which is where current N.A. demand lies.
https://www.peugeot.fr/nos-vehicules/gamme/nos-vehicules-hybrides.html
There is obvious discussion about the effect of the tax credits on EVs but I haven’t seen much talk about where PHEVs end up in all of this. The tax credits were the reason for many great Jeep 4xE lease deals. Does year of the hybrid (or decade of EREV, for that matter) take into account that these vehicles also would have benefited from tax incentives?
Yeah I can’t help but think the rapidly declining cost of batteries coupled with a lack of tax incentives is going to leave PHEV vehicles out in the cold, where comparable EVs end up being more affordable. The EREV concept should theoretically be a lot less complex than a PHEV (no mechanical integration of the powertrains needed, should allow for de-contented engines that only need to operate at a few discrete conditions) but it will probably only make financial sense for big heavy vehicles (but who knows, if David yells loudly enough maybe BMW will give us another i3 REx).
People online always claim to want a PHEV, but they are too complicated in my opinion. I’m a BEV driver so I’d prefer a EREV over a PHEV and I’m interested to see public attitudes once they’re widely available. Will people actually plug them in?
I’ve been saying I wanted a PHEV but when it came time for a new car, I didn’t pull the trigger. The cost premium was too big for me. I’m guessing it is the same with a lot of people — driving around town using zero gas sounds great, but paying $7K extra for the privilege sounds not great.
Had it not been for the used PHEV tax credit, I would have gotten an older hybrid over the Escape PHEV I bought. Which I do like, but the tax credit was key to the purchase.
I think the issue with PHEV and EREV is that it still has the engine and all the associated stuff to make it complex…and then also certification. I love to imagine an air cooled EREV that fits in the spare tire well and makes just enough power to let you drive on the highway indefinitely…but then what about fuel (and stale fuel), what about exhaust, what about high altitude, what about desert temps, etc…i3 REX was pretty close to this dream but regulation really hindered the benefits by limiting ICE range, and I think that was shortsighted on CARB’s part.
Yeah I agree the simplicity is a big selling point for the BEV, and the inconvenience of having to download a multiple apps on the occasion you take a road trip feels less significant if you’re no longer thinking about gas stations, oil changes, fuel stabilizer, etc.
Agree the old REx could have been a lot less compromised with a real gas tank. I think if BMW made an all new i3 though, my suspicion is they’d have no trouble getting a 250 mile range out of it, and a 15 min fast charge time. At that point the number of people willing to pay thousands more to sacrifice 20-50 miles of range so that they could save 10 minutes on each road trip refuel session (in a smallish city-oriented car) would be so small that it’d never get produced. Probably makes sense on any BMW numbered 5-8 though.
I dunno what Stellantis’ sales will be, but I’m hoping they’re shit enough to offer me a great deal on a tow pig of some kind.
In Sept, for the end of Q3 they were offering 10% off msrp OR 0% financing on some models. Most dealers I saw also had 2 or 3k of their own discount listed. I had been looking at Warlocks, with a 57K-ish MSRP, I ha seen quite a few of them in the 47-51k range. Still not quite good enough of a deal for me to jump on, but if I could have gotten the discounts AND the zero percent I’d probably have bitten.
This was for the 1500’s, the HD trucks may have been different.
I’m thinking come November they may start getting aggressive again.
Here’s hoping. Canadian pricing isn’t quite where I need it yet.
Ohhh hey buddy, didn’t know you were up north. I watch the Truck King yt channel, they’re out of CA and I’m always surprised how high the prices are.
It’s that 30% hit on the exchange rate that does us in.
I love watching Stellantis crash and burn.. I’m not sure why.. maybe because I hate everything they make. Q3 numbers should be abysmal.
Probably because it’s a collection of starving brands in the form of a soulless conglomerate?
Yup, same for me. I want karma to prove them wrong, but they’re punishing lots of good people while in free fall. All these brands were people who gave a shit.
“I’m not sure why”
I can suggest some reasons why… starting with the name ‘Stellantis’ being stupid.
And the FCA-PSA merger that created Stellantis was stupid. There was nothing PSA had that FCA didn’t already have or could do on their own. And thus, you enjoy seeing the people behind the merger (looking at you Exor and Agnelli descendants) be proven wrong.
And Stellantis’ first CEO was stupid making stupid product decisions at least for the North American market.
And Stellantis is carrying on with the FCA tradition by putting too much emphasis on trying to make brands like Fiat work in markets where they won’t work like North America… throwing good money after bad instead of using that money to get Dodge and Chrysler the product these brands need.
Plus Stellantis is carrying on with some of the dumb decisions that FCA made like keeping Ram separate from Dodge (showing no understanding of Dodge’s truck-heavy history) as well as making new-stupid decisions like deciding to cancel the Hemi and then being forced to backtrack.
Plus they are carrying on with the tradition of not being able to get their shit together in terms of quality.
Yes!
No one asked, but I hope Hyundai could consider offering a base/two-wheel-drive/small battery version of the Ionic 5 (in just one trim and just a few colors) for U$ MSRP of a true $25K instead of sunsetting it when the model would be retired. Do this (maybe with newer/cheaper/better battery chemistry packs if it makes sense) instead of trying to offer something new for that entry-level price range.
It’s just a good practical car and by then, the tooling outght to be paid off, and the early issues w/power management electronics should have been totally solved, so why not? The United States needs a $25K EV: not fancy, but decently built and practical, and one that doesn’t seem quite as disposable as Chinese ones that we’ll never get here anyway.
Come on Hyundai! Just something to consider?
Make it in just three cheap and cheerful colors:
Light blue, light yellow and light green – all with the same light grey cloth interior.
Nothing wrong with making carry-over models a little fun.
Dealers hate colors, as they pose inventory management challenges. There’s a reason that every damn car on every damn lot is white, black, grey, or silver, and it’s not because consumers want those colors.
If a model doesn’t come in black, white or grey at all – then dealers would have to stock the other limited choices.
You’re right on target, but…US consumers have been pretty clear that they do not want small(er), practical vehicles.
Perhaps this formula might work in markets outside the US?
That’s weird – because US Consumers were all over smaller practical vehicles in the 70’s and 80’s during those recessions…
…and we’re being pushed into a forced recession right now.
Malaise vs Japanese build quality *might* have also played a part in that.
I recall buyers flocking to first-year Vegas, Citations, and Volare/Aspens en-masse.
Then swearing off GM & Mopar products on their way to Honda, Toyota and Nissan dealers a couple years later.
Regarding the Mach E, my morbid curiosity had me check Ford’s lease program when I got to work this morning. Whilst I was expecting the rebates to be gone (and our sales to absolutely crater), it was actually the opposite – they increased.
Not only that, the program appears to be good through the end of the year. Then again, the money factor went from 0.05 to 0.52, so it’s probably a wash and just another example of Ford’s Fuzzy Math.
I’m sure F150, Super Duty and Commercial sales are propping up the EV side of things in Dearborn.
I would guess that the Bronco is part of the reason the next wrangler will be IFS.
I think at this point, it would be stupid to keep it as a solid front axle.
Yes I get it, I’ve heard it a million times, about solid axles and articulation, that point has been argued to death.
But the same people that argue that don’t want to look at a few facts.
In the entire lifespan of a new Wrangler, what is the % that a solid front axle is the difference between getting there vs. not. If someone says above 5%…they lyin’
IFS means you get rid of “death wobble” fears
IFS means you can use fully electric power steering
Electric power steering increases vehicle efficiency, and gets rid of a system (hydraulic)
Electric (R&P) power steering means you can have MUCH better lane centering systems, self driving systems, accident avoidance, etc..
For the 5% (being generous here…) of the time that a Wrangler would absolutely require the added articulation of a solid front axle, there are front lockers and traction control that can narrow the gap. And disconnecting sway bars can narrow the gap further.
I’ve known a few people that have traded in new Wranglers because they were sick of the ride/drive characteristics of the solid front axle.
My dad and I have always marveled at the compromises people put up with in Wranglers. So many of them are lifted on big tires and never once leave the pavement. Those tires are so damn loud, the fuel economy must be abysmal, and you have the driving dynamics of a vehicle with a solid front axle. For the vast majority of Jeep owners, IFS would be an upgrade. Especially now the Bronco is out and people now have a similar option with, from what I’ve read, considerably better on-road manners and driving dynamics.
EXACTLY!
There is a reason why the G-Wagen went away from a solid front axle, same with certain Land Cruiser models, Patrols, Land Rovers, etc..
The juice ain’t worth the squeeze anymore.
I’ve never driven a Wrangler, but I imagine they could just limit the option of the solid front axle to the Rubicon package, for those who truly need it/want to cosplay.
Also a good option, keep the solid axle for Rubicon only.
They could engineer the vehicle to accept both styles of axles, kind of like a series 100 vs 105 Land Cruiser. Even though the 105’s i think were 80 series frames underneath… not sure about that.
You can’t do a front wheel dig with IFS. Let’s cked or not. The parts can’t handle the stress.
You can’t do it on a Wrangler Rubicon either? It’s not a matter of solid axle vs IFS. You’d have to change the transfer case and modify the front axle to be able to lock independent of the rear.
At the point you can modify a Wrangler to do a front dig, you could also modify a Bronco, too.
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1205or-solid-axle-versus-ifs
Yeah, I kept mine for about a year and decided that while it was a great vehicle for doing up North stuff, it was a terrible vehicle for getting there. It was also too expensive (for my taste) to drive it into places where solid axle vs IRS would make a difference. I miss the removable top, but otherwise my crossover with ATX tires can do all the same stuff at a fraction of the cost, while being more comfortable and getting better milage. So much of the Jeep image is cosplay and I don’t feel the need to pay into that to get outdoors. At this point you could probably sell a FWD Wrangler on a Fiat chassis and 3/4 of your customers wouldn’t notice.
Zero reason to buy an IFS Wrangler, the SFA is the only thing that makes it special these days.
I agree despite the above comments. I have no issues with the ride. It is durable off road, which I do often, and it was cheap and easy to put on a lift in my driveway.
Yes, points I should have added to my original post. I think you posted this while I was trying to edit it.
For something that’s going to be mostly on pavement or do mild trails, IFS is fine, but if you think you’re going to want to go big and hit harder trails, it quickly loses it’s luster.
One of the reasons I like the Bronco so much. It’s got the IFS, but at least it has great tire clearance and great approach/departure angles. I can put thousands into a 4Runner and will not be as capable as a stock Sasquatch Bronco. A SFA Jeep is yet another level over that.
I tried to edit this to add more context, but apparently, we only have 2 minutes to edit comments now?
I should add that even for the mall crawlers, the SFA is so much cheaper and easier to lift correctly to fit larger tires. It’s also more durable once larger tires are fitted, to a point.
Look at something like a modern IFS Toyota, you can lift it 3″ and STILL rub with even a stock sized tire if you pick the wrong wheel.
Well said, And that is why I have mine. I do the hard off road stuff and did my lift my self for only a few hundred dollars. The SFA jeeps will continue to hold their value in the used market.
I have seen considerably more Teslas since Elon has seemingly started taking his meds again, and I’m still really unsure as to why.
People trying to get the EV incentives before they ran out?
^^ This ^^
I guess, but there’s so much more competition now.
I mean, they are still excellent choices (at least on the lower end to middle of price range) if one wants an EV and cares not one bit about the politics.
I’ve actually seen way fewer, but I’m in Canada.
There’s an EV owners club where I live and they hold events to show off, have educational sessions, and talk to other people.
The Tesla dealer had an area outside, with two models for test drives. Inside, there was a Cybertruck from a wrap company and a Model Y with a tent on it – but parked nose to the wall. That’s it.
A few years ago I went and there was a big Tesla presence and the owner’s area was probably half Teslas. This year? Not one Tesla owner. None.
In the wild, I see lots of older Teslas, but outside of dealerships I’ve seen exactly one facelifted Model Y.
Before the 2022 or so tax credit, Tesla and GM had used up their credits and were still discounting, not sure why this is much different.
For Stellantis it will probably be a December to remember, maybe not in a good way.
The big difference this time is the federal government wants to no longer regulate average fuel economy. This provided an incentive for automakers to sell EVs or get fined. Basically all of Tesla’s profit come from selling carbon credits, which now no longer exist.
Stellantis is going down the shitter in a blaze of glory and no amount of jingoistic TV ads will save them.
True, Tesla was built on carbon credits, but they also have footholds in Europe and China now, where there still are a lot of incentives, and where people don’t care as much about the CEO antics.