It’s kind of a running joke with a friend of mine that everyone we know, or will ever know, owns a Toyota Grand Highlander. I recently drove the Lexus version and, yeah, I get it. I do. I might be able to talk you into buying a different three-row SUV, but I cannot talk you out of buying a Grand Highlander. It’s pretty good.
Inflation more than tripled in March (i.e. the monthly percentage increase in prices is three times what it was the month before), and you can probably guess the reason why: Energy. Has this yet led people to buy cheaper, more efficient cars? Of course not. Big trucks and SUVs are leading the way. An automaker that lacks both is Porsche, and it seems to be paying the price for it.
I know there’s been a lot of talk about China in The Morning Dump lately, so forgive me if I share a new story about the Chinese government telling battery companies to cool it on over-expansion. Ford is expanding on its campus, too, though it’s decided not to tear down what’s left of its development center.
CPI Up 0.9% Over February, ATP Up 3.5% Y-O-Y
I use this graphic all the time because it’s one of the better way to see what the state of the car industry is in the United States at any given moment:
For all the talk of making vehicles affordable, prices are still up by a large percentage year-over-year, though down a little bit from the brief moment where ATP went over $50,000. This March saw prices basically stable from February, but up 3.5% from last March. The average MSRP is above $50,000 and has been that way for a full year now.
At the same time, the Consumer Price Index rose dramatically by 0.9% in March. Here’s the Bureau of Labor Statistics explaining what happened:
The index for energy rose 10.9 percent in March, led by a 21.2-percent increase in the index for gasoline which accounted for nearly three quarters of the monthly all items increase. The shelter index also increased in March, rising 0.3 percent. The index for food was unchanged over the month as the index for food away from home rose 0.2 percent, while the index for food at home fell 0.2 percent.
Take energy costs out, and it’s not quite so dramatic. This is all a result of the War in Iran which is maybe over? You might assume that consumers would be rushing for affordable, efficient cars. That’s not quite what’s happening, as Cox Automotive’s Erin Keating explains:
“Despite higher fuel costs, U.S. consumers stayed focused on larger segments in March. Buying behavior does not change quickly, and most Americans have ridden the gas-price rollercoaster before. They know where the ride ends.
The numbers this month also show that the industry’s near-$50,000 ATP is reflective of a market that favors large, expensive vehicles. While affordable vehicles still exist, the demand continues to be concentrated in higher-priced segments.”
Because of the way oil works, fuel prices haven’t come down yet, and the actual outcome of the conflict is still uncertain. The consumers who can still afford cars like big trucks and big SUVs and, it seems, those buying habits aren’t going to be changed anytime soon.
Porsche Sees ‘Expected Decline’ In Sales
Whenever I see the new electric Porsche Macan I think to myself: That looks great. I don’t see them as often as I see the old gas-powered ones, though. That’s maybe a problem for Porsche, which saw a 15% decline in sales this quarter.
Don’t worry, according to the press release, this was “expected.”
“Following the end of the combustion-engined 718 and the strong deliveries of the fully electric Macan at market launch, our figures are below the prior‑year level but are overall in line with our expectations. Strong demand for the 911 and the high proportion of top derivatives clearly demonstrate that the core of our sports car brand remains exceptionally strong,” said Matthias Becker, Member of the Executive Board for Sales and Marketing at Porsche AG. “In the coming months, our focus will be on the market launch of the all‑electric Cayenne, which will be delivered to its first customers from summer onwards.”
Demand dropped 11% in North America and 21% in China, while rising about 4% in Germany. If there’s some positive news here it’s that the 911 saw a 22% year-over-year increase, because 911s rule.
Chinese Gov’t To Chinese Batterymakers: Chill Out
One of the aspects of China’s massive growth that needs to be mentioned alongside conversations about the country’s speed is that the country’s various industries have a bad habit of sometimes overreaching and creating massive overcapacity.
Lately, China’s government has been warning automakers and suppliers to maybe chill out a little and, according to Bloomberg, that the growing popularity of exports shouldn’t be met with backsliding into old habits:
Several government agencies, including the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology, called on 16 manufacturers of electric-vehicle and stationary batteries to step up efforts to improve product quality and safeguard intellectual property, as well as controlling growth.
The companies should “thoroughly understand the significance and urgency” of resisting unreasonable and improper competitive behavior, the ministry said in a statement after the meeting on Thursday. Promotional activities by local governments to attract investment in the sector should also be regulated, it said.
Battery makers’ shares surged on Friday. Industry giant Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. jumped as much as 7.4% on the mainland and 7% in Hong Kong in the afternoon session, while Gotion High-tech Co. and Shenzhen Xinyuren Technology Co. rallied by their respective daily limits.
It’s strange to say, but Chinese companies becoming more profitable is good for everyone. While lowering costs is positive for consumers, doing so in a way that irrationally deflates prices creates an unfair global market that’s bad for labor, trade, et cetera. Both China’s government and Western governments benefit from Chinese companies maturing in this regard.
Ford Will Keep The Development Center, Lose Shelby Way
Ford is in the middle of remaking its campus, and the plan was initially to demolish the old Ford Product Development Center in Dearborn. I guess that’s not happening now?
Per the Freep:
The automaker’s original master plan was to tear down the remaining part of the Product Development Center and construct a new building there as an extension to the new World Headquarters located next to it on Oakwood Boulevard. Then, the plan changed again, to tear it down to add a parking lot.
Ford’s leaders have once again had a change of heart. Ford will now keep that portion of the Product Development Center standing, but will completely gut it, renovate it and attach it to the new World Headquarters building through a skywalk.
One thing that is changing, though, is that Carroll Shelby Way is being turned into Raptor Way and Navigator Way. Here’s Ford talking to Nick Bunkley about what happened:
In addition, Village Road will change to Mustang Alley, and South Pond Road will change to Bronco Bend.
Ford transferred its longtime vanity address, One American Road, to the site during its headquarters move last fall.
At that time, “we took the opportunity to evaluate other campus roads, including Carroll Shelby Way,” a Ford Land spokesperson said in a statement to Automotive News. “Ford made the decision to rename several private roads to reflect iconic Ford products, as part of our broader strategy to infuse our employees’ work into our campus design. We are always evaluating additional opportunities to connect to our Ford history.
Ford still has Shelby’s name on a bunch of products, so this seems very much like a master-planning thing and not anything else.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
KRS-One’s “Step Into A World (Rapture’s Delight)” is one of those songs that plays in the back of my head when it’s entirely silent. I’m not the run of the mill, cuz from the mill I don’t run.
The Big Question
What would be the funniest car exec or figure to name a street after?
Top photo: Toyota
Is there still a Thunderbird Room inside the new building? IIRC, Alan Mulally used the original one as a sort of command center during the restructuring of Ford around and just before the 2008 recession
“What would be the funniest car exec or figure to name a street after?”
My vote would go to Mike O’Brien because of this:
https://www.theautopian.com/one-ford-executive-created-a-list-of-mixed-metaphors-and-malaprops-heard-around-the-office-and-its-hilarious/
An article idea which Jalopnik ripped off about a month later
https://www.jalopnik.com/1843057/ford-exec-recorded-funny-ceo-flubs/
Ford. Please preserve the POEE building.
TBQ: Since I’m a sucker for alliteration, I’ll try a couple:
Okay I give up I’m not as good at this as I hoped.
TBQ: No lane changes allowed on the Bunkie Knudsen Bypass
I hope Galpin HQ renames their service road Mergio Sarchionne Way.
The people who buy new cars can largely afford to buy nice new cars. And they don’t really care about the price of gas, even during a spike like right now. Which adjusted for inflation just isn’t all that expensive, it’s just been relatively cheap for a while.
Cheap cars don’t sell for poop, and aren’t profitable when they do with modern expectations to meet.
I don’t know about funniest, but I like the sound of Iacocca Avenue.
I think you could spruce this up with some alliteratin. Iaccoca Court?
OOOH – much better! I suck at naming things. I could never be the dude who names gated communities.
Its easy to name housing developments. Just call it what used to be there: “Towering Oaks Condominiums” or “Eagle’s Nest Townhomes”. I mean its sad, but it is easy.
The go for MUCH grander nemes here. Otherwise it would basically be Former Swamp Acres.
No. Only 18-22 percent of Americans can “ACTUALLY” afford a new car. The rest are way out of their price range and do it anyways. 25 percent of people who buy a new car have negative equity on it. The estimate is that 39 percent can truly afford it. Americans are idiots.
That means the vast majority of new car buyers can afford them. There will always be idiots. <shrug>
A new Corolla or a new Highlander?
What do you qualify as a ‘nice new car’?
Something in the $40-60K range.
Auto loan delinquencies are near 7% which suggests that a large number of people are buying cars that they can’t afford and I suspect a larger % might not be in auto loan default but are in default on another loan they’re carrying. I find it difficult to believe that most new car buyers can afford a $1000 a month loan.
93% pay on time. The high risk loans are priced appropriately. <shrug>
Gas is cheaper now in real $ than most of 2010-2018 when the other party was in office. This is NEVER mentioned.
The price of gas is what it is. But it is also completely true that it would still be well under $3/gal if the Orange Imbecile hadn’t FAFO with Iran. One of the few ways that the White House DOES have control of the price of gas is by *starting a damned war in the Middle East*.
Ho Sung Song Way
This fits since last night a ho sung a song for me, for a song!
Everyone knows hos don’t sing, they hum.
TBQ: Both of the Carlos Way options (Ghosn and Tavares) would have be dead ends.
John Delorean Way would of course have to be a two way street, with dashed white lines down the middle.
Too soon?
Carlos Ghosn A-Way Way.
Nice!
You could take just about anyone that was at stalantis or Nissian over the last 2 decades or so. Might as well call it golden parachute lane with dead man walking way attached. Can add mullen and make a fraud cir.
Cars are asinine now, cost-wise. Sure, inflation and all that. Doesn’t change the fact that lots of people have got to be over-extending themselves. It just is what it is, though. I’d love a newer car (I daily drive a 2016 Mazda6 right now that just passed 100,000 miles) and so would my wife (she has a 2018 Kia Sedona with 66,000 miles). But, extending ourselves into monthly payments and setting our income back/tying it to them in this uncertain economy just isn’t worth the risk to me when both vehicles are still performing okay. I don’t trust the Kia as far as I can throw it, but it has that 100,000 mile CarMax warranty – at least until it turns ten-years-old in 2028.
I’ll get rid of it then.
“Hello AAA? Yes, I need another tow truck for my Dodge Hornet. I’m broken down at the intersection of Tavares Circle and Lovitz Lane.”
TBQ: Wankel Way sound good
I’d live on Wankel Way.
Lotta weird roundabouts on Wankel Way.
I wish the Grand Highlander was available in all those colors pictured! We need more cars in cool colors 😀
Extremely Good Point.
100% agree. Even that purple isn’t bad. It kind of reminds me of of the purple Plymouth and Dodge had in the 90s on stuff like the Caravan and Stratus. Sure would be nice to at least get a good variety out there again.
My mom had a purple Intrepid back in the day. I thought it was rad until I drove that super pointy nose into the wall in a parking garage.
It actually was rad, until you drove it into the wall in that parking garage…
You just reminded me of my favorite toy car growing up. It was a Hot Wheels third-gen Chrysler minivan in purple!
We had a purple ’99 Caravan SE with the 2.4L I4 / 3A. Despite the bottom tier drivetrain it did everything we asked of it including ascending the 20% gradient of Old Priest Grade by Yosemite while full of camping gear and the A/C blasting, crisscrossing the Rockies, hell we even took it on the trails of Death Valley and Black Bear Pass in Telluride. We got as far as the falls which was all we asked and it did just fine. It was a fantastic camping vehicle.
It was, like the GenXers like to humblebrag literally raised on hose water and neglect. Lots and lots of neglect. When a crash damaged the radiator my dad’s solution was to keep pouring hose water into the frothy choco/strawberry milkshake. When the transmission eventually failed due to all the fluid ending up in the milkshake the total bill for a complete professional rebuild with new radiator was but $1500. It continued to run for several years after that despite copious application of more neglect.
A purple third-gen Chrysler minivan is a hero worth meeting.
With how expensive everything has become I can see people saying fuck it all and paying more than they should to get a nicer vehicle. I get it. All of that money you had saved or were planning to save is being burned up on gas, groceries, housing and healthcare. All of those luxuries that us peasants think we have a right to!
Is that responsible? No, but being responsible with money isn’t doing jack shit for most of us.
Median household income is up more than expenses.
Being responsible with money is the way to financial independence. Many do not seem to have the patience for it though.
It’s very hard to plan long-term when the short-term is so chaotic. The government and tech billionaires seem dead set on making life worse for normal people, so why not do something nice for yourself while you still can?
Exactly, it’s economic nihilism. I won’t condone it but I also have a hard time judging people for it.
Sometimes when I get psychotically busy at work, I open up my phone and start shopping online. Same concept, but with time instead of money (I mean I spend money as well but not more than I can afford …).
John DeLorean
The road would use Porsche’s new patent to
Have the white lines disappear when you drive over them.
“Roads? Where we’re going we don’t need roads!”
top shot is misleading, all those highlanders are in way too many colors, IRL it’s just a sea of black and dark gray.
My Sis has a dark blue one.
The exception that proves the rule. 🙂
My brother’s is a pearl white that I will admit looks pretty nice.
toyota’s pearl white is indeed really nice even if it is white.
their Black/white two-tone looks great on the corolla hatch too.
there’s bound to be at least a couple that end up being sold, but it’s like 20 grayscale to 1 of everything else lol.
Probably the guy who commissioned a peoples car.
But the car was a Hit
ler!If that street ever had a parade, it would definitely heil on people
Hitler Highway?
I think Elon wants everyone to heil a robotaxi there
The street signs say Tavares, but all the maps say Lovitz.
COTD here.
You win.
Yeah, that’s the ticket!
They don’t really though. Dark Horse always seemed like a conscious effort to *not* use the Shelby name, which I would guess they are tired of paying for.
Especially with the one above the Dark Horse named “Dark Horse SC” It really seemed like they planned on a different name (like Cobra) and found out they couldn’t use it
I wouldn’t be too surprised if Ford was paying Shelby a licensing fee to use the name on their HQ street signs.
I will refrain from purchasing any Grand Highlanders going forward. You’re welcome everyone.
There are dozens of us– dozens!
At least three. I had one as a rental last year – yuck.
Really, you didn’t like it? I always loved my RAV4, so I’m curious what was bad about the GH.
It’s big and gaumy and surprisingly hard to see out of. Lousy steering, bouncy suspension. Not my idea of a good time in any way. A Suburban is actually a much better drive. So is a Sienna, and those are better at being a three-row passenger vehicle. By a LOT. But to most women – “minivan, eeeew”, even when it is absolutely the correct tool for the job.
Honestly I find most of Toyotas cars to be underwhelming. Lexus is another matter but I will never understand the love for Toyota as the interiors are shit.
As I have long said here about Toyotas – the cars I respect the most while desiring to own the least – and that goes abotu triple for Lexus. The interiors are crap, and they universally drive like crap, and they generally look like crap. Reliable crap is still crap to me, when even a P38a Range Rover was more than reliable enough for my purposes. Especially currently with thier insane pricing and rampant dealer BS.
My wife and I were considering a new fully loaded Grand Highlander Hybrid Max to use my employee lease benefit on, replacing her 2025 Pilot. We didn’t make it a mile down the road before she said she hated it and wanted to keep her Pilot. Just means I get a GR Corolla to replace my Civic Type R instead, which is fine by me.
Win-win!
Carlos Ghosn
カルロス・ゴーン通り
Carlos Ghosn Departures Terminal
get some tax free music equipment while there.
The cargo terminal always needed a fancier name.
“It’s gotta be right around here…somewhere…”
So, does this mean the auto-journo folks will stop incorrectly using ATP as a measure of car affordability?
Honest question, what is a better metric to track?
Comparing inflation-adjusted MSRPs of equivalent models or the class average over time would be a good start. There would still be issues with the increasing capabilities and base features throwing things off but I’m not sure how that could realistically be removed.
Perhaps that’s why ATP is being used.
Things are complicated more than enough for most folks.
YMMV of course.
Average Transaction Price is an industry metric. It is in the industry’s interest to normalize high transaction prices because everyone wants to think they are average or above. If the “average” household can swing the payment on a $50,000 crossover then surely I can too. Most people do not want to be seen as less than.
This is also why they use the Mean for the average instead of the Median that is used in most economic data. The mean in higher because a relatively small number of very expensive vehicle shift the mean much more than the median.
Glad I don’t seem to give a shit about this, one of my Civics is worth less than me neighbor across the street spend more per month on the payments for their RAM/Escalade combo they replace every year. The other is certainly worth less than their yearly payments.
I don’t think any of this is meant for general public consumption so I don’t think it has anything to do with making buyers feel like ballers. This is used more internally to track how much/often manufacturers and dealers are having to offer incentives for purchase.
You can compare ATP to average MSRP to get a high-level, quick view of how things are moving. It’s also helpful to track affordability in the sense that if ATP starts to drop you know dealers are having to put cash on the hood to move cars and you might have a problem.
ATP has been talked about in mainstream media for decades.
Personal opinion – if the industry wasn’t trying to normalize high prices they would report the median like we see for homes, salaries, etc.
The median transaction price should be very easy to find but it isn’t.
Weeks of median household income required to buy the same car.
Example
2000 Camry: 25.0 weeks
2010 Camry: 20.4 weeks
2024 Camry: 16.4 weeks
This. And then look at the difference in content in those cars. Cars are one of the things that are cheaper than ever, even if the number of those ever smaller dollars gets bigger and bigger.
If we look at content cars get even cheaper. A modern Civic is larger and more powerful than a 90’s Accord and even a base model is loaded up like a luxury car from days gone buy.
Exactly.
That’s a very nice stat and way more digestable than what I posted. Bravo.
We’re going to have to buy a Grand Highlander Hybrid in the next two years and I’m already fucking dreading it. There is absolutely nothing on lots but the platinum hybrid max trim that’s like $60,000, my wife won’t do a black interior, and the color she wants is primer gray. There is just no way in hell we aren’t going to get absolutely bent over by Toyota dealerships trying to find her white…er gray whale.
If you can charge.. CX-90 PHEV. We absolutely love ours. Haven’t sat in a Grand Highlander so I can’t compare the 3rd row, but definitely cross shop it.
The CX90 has had so, so many issues though. It was originally on our list but after doing research it’s a much harder sell, and I don’t know that my wife will get anything out of the improved driving dynamics it offers. She just wants an efficient appliance.
The Grand Highlander will handily win on passenger and cargo space, if that’s a priority.
Says who? Spending $60K isn’t something that either part of a marriage gets to demand unless there is an abundance of cash available to turn your dread into, “meh, It’s just $60K and we’re fine” and maybe that’s the case, and if it is, that’s a great thing.
But It’s OK to say no and to be modest in vehicular choice. “Keeping up with the Joneses” isn’t some meme myth, it’s a real trap that is so abundant it turned into an idiom.
We can afford it and don’t mind spending the money on something that will last 10+ years…but I’d much rather spend $10,000 less on a regular hybrid one, the issue is Toyota dealerships suck mondo ass and refuse to stock anything but the highest trims.
Looks like you need to go buy the vehicle V10 linked to.
I’ll even pick him up at the airport!
In the Viper?
That might depend on the season.
A Viper on snow tires in the winter is pretty much the ultimate flex, no?
It would be if anyone made tires in the size.
Snow tires are supposed to be narrow. How much sideways fun (and by fun I mean mostly terror0 would a Viper on four skinny tires be?
The GH is an appealing choice for us as well, but I don’t think I’d accept a Hybrid MAX one. It’s way less efficient and is a much more complex/less proven system than the standard hybrid, which makes me think it’s a case of spending more for a worse product. It sucks that they stock more of the MAX versions.
The hybrid max is dumb. It isn’t any more efficient than the regular ICE one and, as you say, is more complicated. All it does is make the car faster but I don’t need a sub 6 second 0-60 in a damn family hauler.
You appreciate that stat more when you have kids and they confused laxatives for chocolate bars.
Did … this happen to you?
You don’t want to know.
In the Mike Judge universe, Beavis passed out chocolate laxatives in class.
Terrifying and hilarious.
It is as funny as it is diabolical. Not so funny when you’re the one pranked though.
Back in the 90s, a kid in middle school pretended to be nice to me by being my “friend” for a few weeks. Being an isolated outcast wanting a friend, I fell for it. He gave me a “chocolate” and I gladly accepted, not knowing any better.
The boys’ rooms didn’t have stall doors, the stalls being opposite to the mirror/sinks. I’m sure you can imagine the awkwardness during break between classes when there’s 15+ other boys in the restroom laughing at me, the poor fool sitting there with his pants down in a position of vulnerability and intestinal distress with no privacy.
Repeat that scenario multiple times through the day, including an occasion at the end of the day where a fight broke out while kids were smoking in the restroom. My female English teacher rushed in to intervene while I was glued to a toilet with my pants down sounding like a bilge pump, with absolutely nothing to hide me and what I was doing from her view. She apologized to me the next time she saw me, but that didn’t do much to help how I felt about things.
That kid who did that to me was pure evil.
At least Beavis with his friend Butthead are said to have passed them out to their kindergarten class, putting the entire class on equal standing(sitting), so-to-speak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2rSJbmOq44
That’s mortifying. Glad you’re able to talk about it.
That’s far from the worst thing that I’ve experienced in school, nevermind the rest of my life. But it is among one of a number of reasons I consider the public school system to be child abuse. The food they were giving the kids was literal poison, normally intended for prisoners.
This reminds me of the episode where they forget how to pee.
Coach Buzzcut has quite the sense of humor.
Dear God.
Or a dog that got into the jar of bacon grease.
“All it does is make the car faster but I don’t need a sub 6 second 0-60 in a damn family hauler”
Oh, I’d put that to use every day, but I’m kind of a dope. There’s a reason I have a GS350 instead of the ES300h that would have made more financial sense.
At 60K plus financing, etc. I would need to live through at least three personal reincarnations to afford that.
Not bitching, but JFC costs have become almost beyond my ability to deal with.
At least I know we are winning so bigly…right?
Spending $60K isn’t something that either part of a marriage gets to demand
That depends on the prenup.
Buying a new Toyota SUV for a family with kids and dogs isn’t exactly a wild extravagance. In my experience, people concerned with the Joneses are looking at Escalades, X7s, Grand Wagoneers, maybe Yukon Denalis.
A $60K vehicle is an extravagance few can afford. Being the smart buy doesn’t exclude it from the infantile pissing match that is suburbia.
I think the fact that it’s “the smart buy” is exactly what excludes it from the “pissing match.” The purpose of the purchase is because it’s what best suits your family, not because it’s going to impress the neighbors (which it isn’t going to do anyway).
I mean, we can agree to disagree on that.
Is there no other family bus you can talk her into? I get the appeal of the Highlander, particularly with that hybrid max powertrain that cooks, but I’d be cross-shopping hard before I started forking over MSRP+ on a family car.
She only wants a Toyota or a Honda. Her family only buys Japanese cars and for whatever reason it’s stuck with her. She doesn’t want to be seen in a Nissan (unfortunately I get it) or minivan (that I don’t get). Subaru doesn’t have any 3 rows with hybrid powertrains. Neither does Honda but that could change by the time we’re shopping. A hybrid is a non-negotiable for her.
The regular Highlander would be fine but it’s even harder to get than a grand one and is transitioning to being an EV so Toyota can upsell everyone into top trim Grand Highlanders…
Ooh boy, yeah you’re boxed in. Be grateful she didn’t set her expectations on an expensive European depreciation machine, I guess.
Oh she initially suggested we order her an XC90 Recharge and do European delivery….so it could be worse, although I don’t think she was entirely serious
50-cal bullet dodged there. Fun way to blow through a stack of money, though.
Shame about the minivan aversion. There are some nice looking Odyssey Tourings in my area for several grand off MSRP. No wait, no hassle, they’re just sitting there waiting to be taken home. I understand wanting a hybrid, but the Honda van would be my personal go-to if I needed a big 3-row.
Aren’t those vastly difference vehicles? The Grand Highlander is much larger no?
It looks much larger, but in reality it isn’t. The actual dimensions aren’t that different. I thought it was much larger just seeing them in the wild but then I looked up the actual size difference and was surprised.
Those are sweet cars, though. CPO versions can be had at 45-50k.
XC90 PHEVs were a leasing favorite on Lease Hackr during the tax credit days and the consensus on quality over there was not great. Apparently you used to be able to extend the CPO warranty for a decent price, but those days are gone too.
My wife was just the same. Of course she managed an auto repair shop for almost 35 years…
In a small town full of trucks and imports you never saw a Toy or Honda there unless it was an oil change or battery replacement customer.
Could be worse, man. My husband only buys Fords.
Yes. Like a 3/4 ton Suburban 4wd with the Diesel!
LIYH
Just a reminder that one way airline tickets to flyover country are a lot cheaper than dealer markups or higher trims you don’t really want, and away from the coasts the Toyota dealers are a lot more reasonable.
Edited – here’s a grayscale hybrid sitting on a lot near me with a non-black interior for $50K before negotiating.
https://www.toyotaofmerrillville.com/viewdetails/new/5tdacab54ts098994/2026-toyota-grand-highlander-hybrid-sport-utility?type=lease
I was about to do a fly-n-drive on our last car purchase but managed to find one locally at just the right time.
I was a bit disappointed I found it, because I was looking forward to that little trip.
The right move, especially if you are in the Southeast and have to deal with the Toyota nonsense down here.
PREMIUM PAINT. That’s a very funny selling point for a gray suv.
Just start the process a year in advance or so, my friend Sienna took like a year to show up in the color/specs he wanted but at the end the dealer forced them to finance with them.
My parents did the same with a RAV4 hybrid in 2024. Gave the dealer a color and trim package and then waited 3-4 months for them to get one in. Paid MSRP.
Their big problem was they absolutely did not want a sunroof.
Until the dealer decides to sell it to Random Joe who walks in the door and now you waited 5 months for nothing.
Go bigger. Yukon XL. Pretty sure they come in gray.
You might be joking but the diesel Yukons see upper 20s mpg to low 30s mpg on the highway. You do have to drive them a lot to really see the cost benefit though.
Only kinda joking. If I was shopping for a three row with a $60k budget, I personally would be shopping (used) Yukons and not caring about the gas! Very comfortable, very capable. Yes, they’re big, but in a good way.
I would go full fat with a Yukon XL. Go big or go home, and the regular Yukon has zero cargo space if you are using the third row.
Yeah, gotta get the big boy.
Higher mpg doesn’t help when the fuel is 30% more expensive. My current Duramax will be my last diesel.
The 3.0TD is supposed to be an alternative engine upgrade to the 6.2L. Smoother and has better towing capacity, it gets nearly double the mpg of the 6.2 and the 6.2 drinks premium fuel.
Its real issue is the increased maintenance if you don’t drive it more than 10k miles a year. It needs a few long road trips a year to keep it happy.
The Babymax is sweet but neither of us drive enough miles to keep it happy, so it’s unfortunately probably more trouble than it’s worth. I only put 6,000ish miles on my car a year and she’s probably hovering around 10-12,000 on hers and most of it is 50 miles or less at a time.
Yeah, Babymax would give you nothing but headaches with that driving style.
I could see it as an upgrade to the 5.3L but pricey at $5,500
Yes, the emissions maintenance gets expensive.
. . . still cheaper than divorce.
Well said. If you can afford it and makes your spouse happy it can be money well spent.
Marriage is about compromises and she’s literally never had a new car in her life/is currently driving a 2015 CRV. I’m cheap, but I’m not cheap enough that I’m going to tell her we can’t get a nice family car. She’s already agreed to me getting a weekend car down the road too.
I hate to sound like a dick, but we’re not hurting for money, I’m just not into the idea of a dealership trying to force me into the $60,000 top trim of a car. And this lovely commentariat has offered myriad solutions!
No chrome on the wheels (Woo), I’m a grown-up for real,
-Jay-Z “Dirt Off Your Shoulders”
Could it be like Mr. Carter, the older, more mature Nsane is cautious about throwing money at a depreciating asset?
Hey man, I hear you. I can afford a lot at my current income level but I just can’t stomach the idea of the prices as they are today.
I bought a Volvo new in 2019 and that was the first new car in nine years and now it’s been CPO for us all the way.
Get your wife her first new car. Then introduce her to a CPO replacement down the road and let her see how someone else taking depreciation for you still NETs a really nice car.
We all go through that phase, wanting a new car “just for me.” If you are in a place you can afford it I say go for it.
“have to buy”? Er, why? If you don’t like the price, buy something else. Not like there is any shortage of 3-row CUVs on the market, and while the HEV/PHEV saves some gas, you have to save a LOT of gas to make up for the Toyota Tax on these things. Similarly, the Toyota Tax pays for a HELL of a lot of repairs that some other vehicle may not even need. And famously, my mother’s Prius V was notably less reliable than my same year BMW. Luck of the draw.
Yeah, local dealership have nicely equipped Pilots listed for $45,000. I’d rather not put up with such lousy gas mileage, but if the cost delta isn’t going to be made up over the life of the car it’s hard to argue that it’s worth it.
After reading your post, I went to look at a couple of Honda dealers near me. No idea you could get a Pilot for $45K-ish.
People in our area don’t want them because they aren’t hybrids so they’re discounted. Leather interior is standard too, so even the basest trims are fairly nice. They’re great cars, I’m not sure why more people don’t want them.
I can’t say why either – but Honda isn’t the first or even second brand at the top of my list when shopping. Maybe they’re turning into a brand that is competitive in a bunch of categories but doesn’t have that one car that dominates a particular segment.
Interesting take. Upon further examination I think the CRV is the best car in its class, and the Civic Type R is pretty special and maybe the most universally praised car of the 2020s…but outside of that it’s hard to argue that anything else they have is the best at any one thing. The Civic Hybrid seems like an amazing car for people that don’t care about cars.
Honda is amazing at making appliances and it’s both a blessing and a curse. I can’t say I’d choose anything else they have over the competition except the Passport. That thing is fucking sweet and is apparently selling quite well, so the market agrees.
If they had a hybrid I’d buy one tomorrow, but I’m not going from a car that struggles to average 20 MPG in the real world right into another. I don’t want to put up with that shit anymore lol.
I all but have my wife convinced we should get a Sienna and all of a sudden one of our friends got a (Grand?) Highlander and keeps talking about how awesome it is and that we should get that instead. And it would certainly be an improvement for our growing family but not as utilitarian as the van and as a self proclaimed car guy, the most boring thing imaginable.
I don’t understand the van hate but it’s rampant.
I have definitely converted from a minivan hater to a minivan evangelist.
A friend (who also converted to minivan life) told me that if you mark an enthusiast car by succeeding at the mission it was designed for (i.e. sports car for speed, Jeep Wrangler for Rock crawling), then a minivan is far more enthusiast-friendly than any mall crawling 3-row SUV that is cosplaying as an offroader. (He said it far more eloquently than I just did….)
I have a ton of respect for cars that knock their mission out of the park. Of course that applies to shit like the 911 GT3, but it also applies to regular cars that are just really damn good at being regular cars. There’s a lot of engineering prowess that goes into that.
Minivans are probably the most space efficient cars on the road and there is nothing better at accomplishing their mission of carrying several people in comfort and having ample space. Ergo, minivans are rad.
I’ve been saying this for years complete with like for like price comparisons. ATP is way up vs household income not because a Camry or Highlander is more expensive. It is because people are choosing to move up a class or two.
MSRP / Median US Household Income / Week of income required to purchase
2000 Camry: $19,820 / $41,190 / 25.0 weeks of income
2024 Camry: $26,420 / $83,370 / 16.4 weeks
2001 Highlander: $23,515 / $42,230 / 29.0 weeks
2024 Highlander: $39,270 / 83,370 / 24.4 weeks
1996 RAV4: $17,758 / $35,490 / 26.0 weeks
2024 RAV4: $28,675 / $83,730 / 17.8 weeks
My negative outook on why this is:
Social media marketing works so damn well. As you’ve pointed out, cars are cheaper per income, but somehow ATP is through the roof.
That should be a bullish sign though!
People in general feel confident enough in their own economic prospects to buy something more expensive and nicer than their parents would have.
For whatever reason, the site and commenters always choose to take the complete opposite tack on the ATP issue.
“People in general feel confident enough in their own economic prospects”
And yet we elected an insane old guilded-age monster because eggs were up a dollar a dozen. How does that square with their continued commitment to $50K gas guzzlers?
It doesn’t. Because a lot of Americans are irrational, clueless, or both about economics and they react on whims. It’s not a bullish sign, it’s a bullshit sign.
I don’t disagree with this. And people might not be *happy* that 3 row CUVs cost $50K plus (or that eggs cost $5/doz in 2024, or gas is $4.00+ now) but crucially, *they are still buying those things*.
Our capacity to complain is only outpaced by our fabulous wealth.
“Our capacity to complain is only outpaced by our fabulous wealth”
This was indeed my distinct impression of the expressed voter sentiment that carried Trump to his election victory. The economy was strong despite the transitory Covid-recovery inflation, yet we complained endlessly and became angry if any ivory-tower professional economists told us otherwise. Now the economy is genuinely in worse shape because of the administration we elected.
Again, true, but again overplayed I think by the apocalyptic tones in comment sections and social media here and elsewhere. Plenty of economic indicators are still in good shape despite the self-inflicted wounds.
It’s just a different group complaining.
I agree about the apocalyptic tones, we have a resilient economy that can weather some big disruptions. But the damage is indeed real, and it could get worse because we are very early in the economic forcings imposed by the administration.
The big issue here is that the president who promised to improve the economic situation about which he lied in order to get elected has created this self-inflicted economic damage at all, and is not being held to account by his own party or a good portion of the voters who supported him. For that reason, I believe the group complaining now has far more reason to do so than the one complaining in 2024.
I appreciate your politeness and decency, btw.
Everything in American politics (and the justice system) takes time, and lots of it. I feel like the fat lady is getting her lungs tuned up for Trump and his minions. The one thing that will screw him is causing a whole bunch of Republicans to lose the next election. And THAT fat chick is already singing her lungs out.
They’re working very hard to restrict voter participation and turnout within the demographics who don’t lean their way.
They are just as likely to screw themselves with the approach they are taking. Don’t forget that signifcantly more Democrats hold passports than Republicans for one thing. And the poor who would be most affected really LOVE Trump. He is literally screwing his own base, as usual.
Not that I don’t expect the courts to quickly stamp down his voting executive order, including SCOTUS. They CAN move quickly when they want to.
It’s a very K-shaped economy. Those of us in the upper part are doing just fine (I bitch about what my new house is costing me thanks to Trump’s bullshit, but ultimately I can pretty easily afford it). The people in the lower part of the K are screwed six-ways-to-Sunday. But the poors don’t matter much in the country, and never have.
Trump’s election wasn’t about the price of eggs any more than Brexit was.
You are so literal and pedantic that I am beginning to wonder if you are even a human being. Maybe AI. Maybe Spock.
“The cost of eggs” was / is a common shorthand for economic issues. Trump’s election wasn’t primarily about that. It was about a feeling of loss of place in society and perceived respect – particularly among people in rural areas and high school educated white males.
That is why Trump can inflict even more economic pain on his core supporters and they love him even more. He talks about hating the right people.
This is better, thank you. But both are true. Your take was particularly true in 2016 and still remains true for some chunk of his base. But it is inarguable that he capitalized strongly on economic perceptions in the post-covid inflationary period to win over crucial swing voters. Polls showed the economy/cost of living was a major issue, and they showed Trump led in favorability on that topic.
No doubt people talk about economics and cost of living issues but I personally don’t see that is the primary motivating factor as it doesn’t explain people voting against their own economic interests for decades.
Part of that is from the data and part from having quite a few Trump supporters in my extended family.
“I personally don’t see that is the primary motivating factor as it doesn’t explain people voting against their own economic interests for decades”
You’re kindly assuming many voters actually know what they are voting for. You’re rational, a lot of people aren’t. That’s why QAnon existed, why millions believe the 2020 election was stolen, why the current occupant can publicly lie tens of thousands of times and still have support. And why so many thought inflation and egg prices were Biden’s fault despite plenty of news articles on the causes of each.
Politics is not won on facts, but marketing.
“Politics is not won on facts, but marketing.”
Sad but true.
Want vs need are two extremely different things.
Self entitlement has become a national past time.
It’s not a good look.
But of course I grew up when a decent new car was well under 5K MSRP.
People have spent their scarce resources for status-enhancing but frivolous things since the first gold jewelry was forged.
There’s nothing new under the sun.
Appreciate the insight there.
Most people couldn’t afford them even then. What was the average annual salary then, and how many new cars sold per year?
You’re not wrong. I am part of the complaining faction you speak of! 🙂
I also wonder just how much leasing impacts this. In my head the transaction price of a lease that people are actually on the hook for is down payment + X months of payments, NOT the MSRP. Does a lease count full MSRP toward the ATP number? I’m sure it’s been covered, but, I’m too lazy to look it up.
It’s really very simple – people who can afford any new car can afford nicer new cars.
If we were truly K-shaped, then Median income isn’t a fair number to use – and may also explain a rise in ATP
K shaped is commonly used but it is more of a shifting The core middle class is smaller but more of those families have moved a step up the ladder than down. The curve shifted to the right.
It’s income disparity, usually measured with the Gini coefficient / Gini index.
It’s measured a few different ways, but a lower number is represents better income equality (less disparity between rich/poor)
Using the World Bank’s values from 2020 (so as to have common year):
Australia:33.8
Canada: 29.9
Germany: 32.4
Sweden: 30.0
UK:35.4
USA: 40.8
It implies that even back in 2020, that there was far far higher disparity in the USA – a gap that, based on later data, has only gotten worse.
It’s not that the middle class is smaller and have stepped up, the data suggests that it’s smaller and more have actually dropped down further.
Income disparity is a different but related topic. It goes a long way to explaining what V10 said above about our capacity to complain.
Almost every quartile in the USA has seen real gains in income over the last 45 years but the higher one goes on that ladder the larger the gain. (Except for COVID when it was flipped) So everyone is wealthier in real terms but in relative terms the middle and lower classes are falling behind.
This feeling of being left behind is supercharged by people spending their days scrolling social media and watching completely made up “reality” TV. A week in a hotel in a beach town seems lame if people you see online are jetting off to Tahiti.
But, like your example, there’s more to PPP than just cars. It’s very difficult for those at the bottom when they see others rising far faster than them.
Yes, we like to compare ourselves to others.
I think that is one reason my wife and I have done so well compared some our our peers with similar incomes. We both grew up in working class families. My wife was the first in the family to graduate college. I was the second but my mom quit her job when my older brother was born and couldn’t get a steady job as a teacher until 20 years later so finances were tight.
My wife and I can feel like we are living large on much less than some of our friends that grew up in wealthier families. Some people think it is absolutely crazy that our newest vehicle is a 2017 and we live in a 1,000 sq ft house. On the other hand our families think we are crazy to eat exotic things like avocados.
Now do that for the other major expenses in the household budget. I’m having hard time accepting our shitty health insurance is more than our mortgage.
FRED has you covered:
Real household income (includes single people)
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
Real family income (households of 2 or more)
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEFAINUSA672N
Well it’s a bimodal economy, some people can afford nicer stuff, and some can barely afford used stuff.
Also why sell 5 cars with a $3000 margin when you can sell one with a $15000 margin?
That has always been the case.
Automakers dropping low / no margin models and trims is very real though. So much happening in the current automotive market there is not time or money to waste it making cars that don’t make money.
$3,000 profit on a low end car is quite optimistic. Most automakers are making less than 5%
Well that’s why the automakers love pickups. They are cheap to build, and have huge profits.
Very true. They will sell them as long as people buy them. But even selling 1 million trucks last year GM only made a 1.5% profit for 2025. Down from 3.2% in 2024