Good morning to all, except for the wildfire smog currently blanketing the great state of New York. Yes, it’s as bad as you’ve heard. If I wanted to get this level of exposure to toxic particulate matter, I would borrow one of David’s cars. (Okay, maybe not the i3.)
Since today’s a good day to stay inside, keep your windows closed and read The Autopian, our morning news roundup will cover the new Volvo EX30‘s important business proposition; the latest with the Detroit Auto Show; and yet more news in and out of China’s auto industry. Strap on your respirators and let’s go for a ride.
Volvo Gets It: The New EVs Are Too Damn Expensive
I may need to apologize in advance for how hyped up we all are for the new Volvo EX30, which made its global debut at an event in Milan this morning. It’s small! It looks great! It seems like it’ll have good electric range! It comes in yellow! And Volvo pulled the rare move of announcing its $34,950 (before destination and such) price tag right out of the gate. We’re still waiting on a price for the Volkswagen ID.Buzz and that thing feels old enough to buy its own cigarettes.
Make sure to read Thomas’ deeper dive into the EX30 and its specs. But you should know there’s an important business case Volvo is trying to pull off here: making EVs that are aimed at younger buyers, first-time buyers and those who aren’t the mega-rich.
Price creep is a trend we cover all the time here. Thanks to pandemic-related supply chain issues, our collective desire for bigger cars, the need to juice profits to fund the electric transition and just outright greed, the average new car price is almost $50,000 these days and electric vehicles go even higher. The EX30 is meant to be an antidote to that, reports the Wall Street Journal:
Volvo hopes that the bigger [EX90], starting at more than $109,000, will compete with vehicles from Tesla and German premium brands Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi for well-heeled suburbanite buyers.
The smaller EX30, meanwhile, is aimed at more cost-conscious consumers, such as college grads shopping for their first new car. Volvo hasn’t yet revealed the price tag for the smaller vehicle, but Chief Executive Jim Rowan said during an earnings call in April that the model would take Volvo “into a lower price point than we’ve ever been” for SUVs.
The company hopes the new SUV can help it address one of the biggest challenges conventional carmakers face in their electric shift: To meet ambitious EV goals over the next few years, they have to offer more affordable cars.
Emphasis mine there, because thank you. More affordable cars! Imagine that. The plan isn’t without its risks, of course; Volvo’s Rowan is worried about a price war spurred by Tesla or EV sales taking off so fast they cut into already-low profit margins for these things. (I think that last fear is a bit unfounded; the charging network still has a ways to go here for these things to reach scale.)
But I am hoping more automakers join Volvo in offering compelling cars that don’t have to be $65,000. They’re going to have to if they want these EVs, in particular, to catch on. [Editor’s Note: I’m particularly excited about the ~$30,000 Chevy Equinox EV. -DT]
The Tesla Model 3 Is Also Now Dirt-Cheap
You know what is incredibly cheap these days? The Tesla Model 3. As of this week, it finally qualifies for all, and not just half, of the $7,500 EV tax credits. And if you live in California, with that state’s discounts you could get a Model 3 in the mid-$20,000 range, reports Reuters:
New battery rules went into effect in April that lowered the credit of the Model 3 Standard Range Rear Wheel Drive and Long Range All-Wheel Drive to $3,750. Tesla last week on its website said that all versions of the Model 3 again qualify for the full credit. The government confirmed the change on its fueleconomy.gov website.
A Model 3 starts at $40,240 and the price may fall to $25,240 when the $7,500 federal tax credit and another $7,500 from the California tax rebate kick in, depending on income and other requirements. Toyota’s Camry is listed at $26,320 and higher.
The subsidy change, along with aggressive discounts, should help Tesla prop up sales of its mainstay Model 3, whose demand has been weighed down by a major revamp this year, economic uncertainty and increasing competition.
Good Lord, that’s tempting, isn’t it? The Model 3’s been around a while but it’s still a great drive with the best charging network there is. I still think Tesla’s vulnerable by having such an aging lineup, but for now, consumers are the winners with these aggressive price cuts.
The Detroit Auto Show Attempts A Comeback, Again
Auto shows were struggling even before COVID-19 hit with automakers focusing their energies on standalone events and online debuts so they didn’t have to literally share a stage with the competition. But that struggle was especially acute for the poor North American International Auto Show, once the biggest news event of the year for folks like your hardworking Autopian staff. (We used to wear suits and ties to the thing! Unfathomable today.)
The Detroit show in recent years had suffered from a loss of attendance from European and luxury automakers, and post-pandemic, it moved around the calendar quite a bit from its former commanding perch right at the beginning of the year. Granted, nobody loved being in Detroit in January anyway, but the show did lose some impact by switching to a warmer month.
It’s still on for September this year. And while 2023 has already meant something of a comeback for live events in general, this Detroit show also means more auto brands are coming. From Automotive News:
The Detroit Auto Dealers Association, which runs the show, said Wednesday that it expects more than double the 13 brands that participated in last year’s show. General Motors, Ford Motor Co. and Stellantis were the primary automakers featuring brands in the show, with many European and Asian brands absent.
This year’s show schedule includes media days on Sept. 13-14, the charity preview Sept. 15 and public event Sept. 16-24.
Other additions this year will in include an indoor EV test track for attendees and a global mobility forum for executives, which will run concurrently with media days.
Ford, GM and Stellantis will feature their full brand portfolios this year, organizers said. The show expects “multiple” vehicle debuts, but did not give a figure for how many had committed to the show so far.
[…] “This year’s show represents the next step in its evolution and in the evolution of the industry itself,” said Detroit Auto Show Chairman Thad Szott. “Automotive technology is changing so rapidly; how do we make people comfortable with it? We’re planning for a show that not only embraces and educates about this new technology but offers an immersion into it. And with twice the number of brands participating, there’ll be no shortage of engaging with it.”
If there’s news to be had, you know we’ll be on it. I do miss this event kicking off the new year like it used to, but I do not miss chiseling snow and ice off my car’s door handles to get around.
BYD Has Everything It Wants, Except America
It’s no secret that China’s BYD is starting to take over the world—except here in America, where 27.5% tariffs on Chinese-made cars and general political tensions keep it at bay. For now. But the company’s growth trajectory in 2023 is really stunning, Bloomberg reports in a new deep-dive that I recommend reading in full. That story says BYD cars are taking over “from Sydney to Delhi and even Montevideo, Uruguay.”
The Shenzhen-based company has been on a tear in China, dethroning Volkswagen AG as the nation’s biggest-selling car brand during this year’s first quarter—a remarkable disruption of Volkswagen’s dominance there since at least 2008, when data from the China Automotive Technology and Research Center became available. One reason for the turnabout: In that quarter, BYD accounted for 39% of the sales of new-energy vehicles (electrics or hybrids)—or 12% of all passenger-car sales—in China, the world’s largest auto market, based on data from the China Passenger Car Association.
BYD continues to expand internationally at a blistering pace. Although the US remains off-limits for political reasons, the Chinese company recently entered Mexico, Spain and the UK. This month it plans to try its luck in Italy, kicking off with a launch party in Turin, the birthplace of Fiat. After first exporting new-energy vehicles to Norway in 2021, the company is now selling such cars from Singapore to Sweden—a real feat for a Chinese consumer brand.
Now, three-quarters of BYD’s revenue still comes from its own home market, which is very high. And growth in China is starting to slow a bit. But it’s moving overseas quickly and not just with sales but with potential factories as well in places like Thailand, France and Vietnam.
But as much as BYD’s blowing up, I have been wondering: are the cars any good? According to Western market owners getting into them for the first time, the answer seems to be… yeah, actually.
Michael Barnden, a retired teacher living in Adelaide, Australia, made the switch in November to a BYD Atto 3, a five-seat family-friendly electric SUV. The 74-year-old is no stranger to cleaner cars, having bought a Hyundai Ioniq plug-in hybrid about four years ago. When he read the features of the Atto 3, including heated seats and a 480km driving range, he snapped one up. “It feels so welcoming to drive,” he says. “I actually look for excuses to get in the car.”
In New Zealand, the Atto 3 was named the Motoring Writers’ Guild’s Car of the Year in 2022. This was the first time a Chinese brand won, according to guild President Richard Bosselman. BYD’s car beat 11 finalists, including Tesla’s Model Y, Kia’s EV6 and the Polestar 2.
“BYD was probably the last to release into the market, but it made quite a strong, immediate impact,” Bosselman says.
Your Turn
My brother sold me his 2000 Camry back in 2018 for $440. It’s green, got a CAI, a red TEQ logo and green Japanese rising sun flag on it. It was the perfect first car for me and I still love it
Might as well enter the whole history (mine and wife’s included)
1989 Geo Prism LSi – $750 (LOW) (used)
1996 Saab 900 Turbo – $3200 (used)
1999 Toyota Camry – $2300 (used)
2011 Hyundai Accent – $13,400 (new)
2012 Suzuki SX4 – $19,700 (new)
2012 Toyota Corolla – $20,000 (new)
2018 Subaru Forester – $24,300 (HIGH) (new)
2012 Hyundai Elantra Touring – $5300 (used)
2020 Chrysler Voyager – $21,000 (used)
The Forester is the high, but was arguably a screaming deal as a brand new car with 0% financing. The Geo Prism LSi is the low, because it was a Geo Prism that had nearly dissolved entirely by my ownership in 2005.
I paid $300 for my first and cheapest car: a 1961 Valiant convertible bought at 16 in 1971. Then I moved to NYC and didn’t own a car for 36 years.
Most I paid was $20K for my 2015 Fit EX bought in June, 2014, and I still have it, hopefully forever since there’s nothing else I want short of a Corvette or Ferrari.
$100 car (seriously) that lasted 6 months (1976 Audi wagon) but had the best story:
The accelerator cable broke so hooked up string from throttle out the hood into driver’s window and drove it like that on back roads all the way home! Ha ha
I’ve been doing a bit of independent thinking of EV’s in general. Here’s my take. Slow the fuck down! The constant drive for the next tech tidbit is drowning us all in ephemera. The industry should take the basics that have already been established, platform, battery, and packaging and work to improve that to full maturity. Once a group of fully developed useable vehicles have been established then is the time to look at new add on bits and pieces.
I realize that what I am proposing runs counter to how the industry works and has very little chance of being implemented. Still one can dream.
Most I’ve paid was $3k each for both a Mercedes 300D & a 300TD, and also for my current 02 wrx. Parents give me a Rabbit once-and I bartered work on a Bosch CIS-K for a track-prepped but rotten Rabbit that I stripped of good parts & crushed. Aside from that, I paid $75 for a 79 (I think) Cutlass with a bad transmission, and I think $80 for a flat-windshield Super Beetle I pulled out of a back yard.
Older now, I’m definitely more willing to cough up more cash for something that takes less work
Cheapest Car was $300 for 1981 VW Jetta unless being given a 1985 Ford Thunderbird Elan counts, most was for my Tesla.
Electric cars do not have to go 0-60 in 4 seconds. The range suffers with that hard of acceleration and it increases cost. The Volvo single motor will have like 268hp which is more than it seems when its electric thanks to quick access to all the torque.
What increases cost of EVs more than anything is massive battery pack sizes. Acceleration is relatively cheap to add. Building crossovers and SUVs that have 2-3x the drag that a small, aerodynamically efficient sedan would, ends up requiring 2-3x the battery for a given range vs what that sedan would require.
Sure, maybe not 4seconds, but they should still feel peppy. I test-drove a Bolt after I’ve already driven Teslas and it felt sooo slooow…
When my diesel Golf is faster than an EV, someone screwed up when making that EV.
Range and acceleration go hand-in-hand with electric. The battery isn’t like a fuel tank, it’s the power provider sort of like the ICE as well (it’s not a straight analogy). People want range, which means a big battery. Big battery means a lot of power, which isn’t only for long range, but can be used to be delivered to the motor quicker and more safely than a smaller battery can. The electric motor is cheap compared to the battery, so giving a motor capable of handling more of that battery’s potential power is a small extra cost and helps sell the car that costs so much due to that large battery people say they need to alleviate range anxiety. Of course, going lighter and more aerodynamic would require less battery, but we don’t live in that better universe.
Batteries vary widely regarding their capability to produce power. There are batteries available off the shelf that are so power dense, that a 1 kWh pack can do 500 horsepower peak. When designing an EV, one of the things that must be done is to find a battery and form factor appropriate for the application. The cost difference on a per kWh basis between a battery that produces X amount of power and one that produces 10X amount of power, for roughly the same Wh/kg specific capacity, might only be 10-20%! Getting an EV to perform well is really cheap compared to getting it to have long range for given chassis/aerodynamics/mass/tires.
We’re going to need to live in that better universe soon, or the resources required to sustain a decent living standard are going to run out.
We could have much cheaper EVs today if the market wasn’t obsessed with getting 300 miles of range. On that note, I am dumbfounded why US policy makers went all-in with pure EVs instead of PHEV. (There have been several cogent comments on the subject of political theater vs true carbon reduction)
Short range EVs are old technology. If you don’t care about getting the latest technology in your vehicle, why are you buying a brand new car? I’m sure there are some consumers who want a cheap EV but will not consider a used vehicle, but those buyers are rare. For everyone else, there are a lot of cheap used EVs to choose from.
Most paid was my most recent purchase of a two year old Cadillac CT6 3 litre twin turbo that set me back just a smidge over $65K. Least was $125 for a 55 Chevy 2 dr that I bought in 1964. Next most expensive was a wonderful 2003 Porsche 911 while third most was yet another 1977 Porsche 911 2.7 litre. Owned that car in Germany and got a lot of use out of the Autobahn and beautiful curved roads in the Allgau.
Geez, I had no idea I was such a high roller. From my pinnacle of auto purchases I can only wonder where the other Autopian’s in my income level are. Afraid to speak out? I really am the only reader who can afford a premium auto? WTF?
How do you like your CT6? It’s on my used vehicle watchlist.
Absolutely love it. Great performance; mine does 0-60 in the low 4’s. Most impressive is passing from 55-85+ in around 3 seconds! Very comfortable. Fit and finish is excellent. Amazingly, I get a regular 25.6 mpg highway at 75 – 80 mph. Around town I get 19 or so resulting in an overall 22 +/- mpg. The styling is very cutting edge and I really like it myself.
I would not recommend using a Cadillac dealership for regular maintenance if you have an independent garage/mechanic you trust. To maintain your warranty you only need a stamp or supporting receipts in your owner’s manual.
Last but not least, if you buy one, I would recommend you plan on driving it for awhile, as resale value isn’t great.
Don’t worry, I’m sure there are plenty of bored lawyers in the comments. But I think the readership here is the type to brag about how LITTLE they spent, compare to most people who would be proud of how MUCH they spent.
Personally, my most expensive car so far has been a $33K Toyota Sienna which … not very exciting. Even though I love cars, this point in my life doesn’t seem like the time to allocate funds that way.
I myself am a retired GySgt USMC. I am able to buy these kind of cars because of a fairly frugal lifestyle with emphasis on fast cars. No lawyers here!
I mean, half of us including myself spend time complaining about car prices so yeah. And by definition luxury car ownership tends to be for the well-heeled who can afford luxuries. Who are certainly a minority.
There’s definitely a few others here who have owned expensive cars but the range tends to be basic new car down to shitbox showdown around here.
Thanks!
No, you aren’t, but this place valorizes the shitbox over all else, so it’s not surprising that’s what people want to talk about.
I bought my Viper new at the bottom of the demand curve for $85,000 in 2015. I’m on the waitlist for a Blackwing that will be near enough $100K. But commenting about that sort of thing here, while not explicitly frowned upon, isn’t exactly celebrated.
The important part is knowing when to spend how much money on what car.
My automotive purchases range from $1,200 to $39,300.
I would not have spent $30k+ 5 years ago and I wouldn’t spend $1,200 today unless it fell in my lap. Budgeting is not a well taught skill.
I intend on eying some luxury vehicles when I lose some kids from the house. I’ve owned 2 luxury cars in the past. I suspect there are a lot here that will stay silent on the matter.
Thanks!
I’d argue that cheap cars usually have a story, or the thrill of the hunt, while an expensive car just requires the means to walk into a dealer and select a commodity. I guess at the very high end you have auctions of interesting cars but that’s a different world.
Shopping for something I actually want to buy is a lot more fun than hunting for something I’m basically forced into buying. Factory ordering a car to my exact specifications without compromise is fantastic. Buying something with a story is usually a negative to me, not a positive.
Everyone has their own way of being an enthusiast.
Fair enough, plus you get to write your story on your new ride!
I paid $63K for my diesel F250, so I suppose I also am a high roller by Autopian standards? Second most expensive vehicle was a Harley-Davidson Livewire at $30k (I probably should have waited and bought it used for 1/3rd of that… oops).
Cheap car stories are more fun than stories from us that paid wayyy too much for our vehicles.
I also assume there are a lot of silent Autopian ballers here – I think at least a few people have paid for the Rich Corinthian Leather membership level.
I think all-in after taxes and whatnot I topped out a hair above 66 for my wife’s Stinger purchased new in 2021, or roughly double what my used BMW 440 cost a few months before that.
Those are certainly anomalies for me, I’ve purchased quite a few cars for $300, the lowest starting bid at the local auctions around here, including several late 90s Volvos that turned into pretty darn reliable $1500 beaters with some safety repairs – one of them is what I used to teach my daughter to drive. My fleet still includes a 95 K2500 and a 94 Ranger bought at auction for $800 and $1100 respectively.
As others have said, the culture here is to be proud of how little you spend. I get it but am not in a place where I enjoy wrenching all the time and just want fun and reliable driving.
I spent the least back in college for a ‘91 Ford Ranger that was only a few years old at $6k.
The most I’ve spent is my current car, a 2016 Boxster that I bought CPO at $46K.
I hear you on premium car ownership too. Once I was in a place I could afford it, the buying experience and fun of ownership is hard to beat. But I do enjoy hearing about older, great cars that these folks are able to get cheap and fix themselves. Maybe I can have fun with that when I retire and have more time. Maybe…
I’ve spent north of $80k for a vehicle that did what I needed when I needed it. Could I have spent less? Yes. Would it have had the creature comforts I like? Nope. My time and well being are worth more than money, so I don’t mess around. I have the funds, so I use them. It’s fun to try to do this on the cheap, but all you’re really doing in the end is trading time (yours) for money. Great if you have time, not so good if you don’t.
Perfectly said.
Cars are my passion, that’s why I spend money on them. It’s not a waste, any more than the money other people spend on travel, designer clothes, jewelry, or whatever frivolous luxuries they use to help them find enjoyment in life.
When I was younger, I owned a lot of cheap-ish cars, and spent a lot of time on them. I still don’t mind a bit of wrenching as a fun activity in my spare time (of which I have very little anymore with three young kids) but the idea of relying on my repair skills for a vehicle I absolutely need operable is just not the kind of pressure I want to live with. Playing the used car game just isn’t something I find enjoyable anymore, and trading money for time, features, and certainty is very appealing.
Once I had money, I realized I had been lying to myself about enjoying working on cars. I still do if it’s simple since I still have the tools (except for the engine crane and stand) and I don’t trust anyone else and can probably get it done faster than bringing it somewhere.
Cheapest was a 72 Cutlass that was my first car. It was $3500 in 1995. It served me well as a daily for about 5 years through college, but the 10mpg really ate into the savings. There was a lot of parking lot mechanic work and AAA towing required to daily a car over 20 years old though.
Most value was my 2014 Volt. I bought it used in 2017 for $17k, and sold it in 2021 for $12,500. With the gas savings, it was so cheap to drive over those 4.5 years.
Most expensive was buying a Ram 1500 in the crazy pricing and shortages of 2021. I wanted to get a 2 year old used one, but they were only $1500 less than I got with a supplier discount on a new one. I managed to get about $7500 off MSRP between a small rebate and the supplier discount, but it was still painful at $62k. There were very few available in the configuration I wanted with everything I wanted for my tow vehicle (air suspension, TPMS for my camper, brake controller, and a few other electronic nannies for towing), and even fewer that were willing to give any sort of a deal (many were selling for over MSRP if you could find them). I want to be safe and comfortable when towing, and more options have made me more willing to keep the car longer and has made it an easier sale when I’m done with it in 8-10 years. At least the loan rates then were just 1.74%, and selling my Volt allowed to me add to my down payment. I’ve worked hard to be at a point in my life where I can be stupid enough with money to buy a camper and an expensive truck to tow it.
I’m hoping to not have to buy another car for 6-8 years, but the reality is that we have a 2008 in our fleet that isn’t causing us any troubles, but there’s always the chance that it could need replacing anytime.
I can, but I don’t like spending that much of my money on cars.
I’m in the same situation… now… but for a good number of years I was not. It’s wiser to buy a used car and plenty of solid, dividend-paying stocks. My current cheapest car (actually, cars, because there are two that I bought for this price) were 700.00 each. One is a convertible that gets 50 MPG (guess which one!), and the other is a classic Z car that was not running, and just needed a fuel pump and a tune-up… and a paint job, and interior work…
I keep looking at some sort of splurge for my next vehicle. But it’s tough for me to look at the cars I want, the things I need, and the features I can get a lot cheaper. I did move up from base models to loaded models, so premium/luxury does feel like a potential next step.
The most I ever paid was $13,400 for a brand-new 2002 Mazda Protege, my one and only new car. The least was technically free (one gift, one inheritance) but if you don’t count those, the smallest dollar amount I ever paid a stranger for a car was $175, for a 1978 Plymouth Volare coupe.
Exact same for me. 13,000 for a 98 Neon, free from inheritance, and about 250$ to a stranger for a 72 Nova.
Most I paid for a car was financed near $18k, and that was the cheapest EV sold in America bought used(Bolt). Funnily the only new car I ever bought was a Dodge Neon for $9600. Least I’ve paid for a car was the $1 for my first one that my Dad “sold” to me.
Enough of the bogus prices by way of what is basically accounting fraud.
On everything. Seriously. Stop it. It’s not only misleading, it’s outright false.
Yes, a consumer gets up to a $7500 tax credit from the IRS and another from California. The car is still $40,240. Also, that’s UP TO, not “you get X.”
If your MAGI as a single filer is $150,000 or more? You get nothing. If your MAGI as head of household is $225,000 or more? You get nothing. What’s your MAGI? Modified AGI. I am not an accountant, but I asked mine. And basically, unless you can contribute the max to your Roth IRA every year? You get nothing. And if you’re close to the Roth limits, you should assume you get nothing.
And the thing is? The car still costs you $40,240. You get a tax credit of $7500. Which means you owe the IRS $7500 less for the year. And it’s non-refundable. Meaning if you owe the IRS $3500, then with the EV credit, you owe them nothing and get no refund. It cannot be carried forward. It is not ‘good as cash.’ It cannot be converted to real money.
So unless you owe the IRS at the end of the year, the cash value of the EV credit is $0.00 and the actual value of the tax credits is $0.00.
Okay, back to less important stuff.
Uh-huh. Has Mr. Rowan actually looked at Volvo’s pricing lately? I’m guessing not. Their cheapest SUV is the XC40 Recharge at $54,645 excluding freight.
And why are we dancing around on the tables about a maybe $35-40k SUV? We already have two excellent ones. Hyundai Kona Electric at $33,500, Kia Niro EV at $39,550.
But, and here’s the catch: they won’t stay that way.
Look. I’ve dealt with Chinese manufacturing for many, many years. Yes, it is rife with knockoffs, IP theft, outright theft, and absolute scrap. Period. This is just facts. But they can also build things to the absolute highest standards and beyond. For years I’ve had stuff that requires just an obscene level of precision and quality made in China. Things where so much as slightly misrouting a trace basically turns it to scrap.
But that’s not how Chinese companies work. It’s not how they have ever worked. It’s not how they’re interested in working. I’m having things hand-made, in very small quantities from a specialty firm. I’ve seen their volume work and how fast it went off a cliff. I’ve also directly dealt with very large scale, high quantity, volume work. And you know how Chinese companies think about foreign markets?
Phase one, conquer the market with unbeatable pricing. Either through support from the dictatorship, stealing IP from someone else, slave labor, churning out castings made of slag and sand, or just being able to offer a lower price on an equal or better product. Doesn’t matter how, as long as you do it.
Phase two, shove your competitors out with that pricing. Force them to bankrupt themselves or to just leave you alone. Growth at all costs.
Phase three, now that they have nobody else to turn to, stop giving a shit about quality. Because what’re they gonna do, call someone else? Offer something better, cheaper? Ha! Didn’t bother to tighten the lugnuts, castings like swiss cheese, cold solder joints and superglue instead of thermal epoxy – anything goes in the pursuit of profit. What’re they gonna do anyways, sue you? LOL!
And the fact is that nobody can compete with BYD on price. Because BYD has the blessing of the dictatorship to be a vertically integrated near-monopoly. They own the lithium mines both home and abroad. They own the battery manufacturing. They own the car manufacturing. They can turn the screws on competing EVs because they have to buy something from BYD, be it raw materials or complete batteries. And nobody can compete with BYD’s prices, because they make use of slavery. (Can’t go lower than $0 on your labor costs!)
All I’m going to say there is that it was a lot less than people think.
Many of the older demographic can do an early withdraw on their IRA/401Ks, incurring higher taxes, and then buy the car with said withdrawal, and use the credits to nullify the higher taxes, basically making it completely non-taxed income.
Younger folks gotta claim -1 dependents or something, but hey at least it should help lower used ev prices in a few years.
It is still smoke and mirrors, fuzzy math, having to use loopholes to finance a technology that is not terribly financially positive. I do agree this same subsidization of oil companies should also be removed and let the chips fall where they may.
Absolutely this in every way, shape, and form. I 100% agree with every point.
Communism does not care about the Capitalist shareholder, at all.
Least I paid: Free. My 1994 Toyota Pickup. Dude walks out into the cube farm “hallway” and says; “Who wants a free…” before he could say “truck”, I said yes and won. Little did I know it was a 1994 Toyota Pickup. Still have it to this day.
Point of fact. China is as Communist as much as North Korea is a Democratic Republic. (The USSR was not Communist either. It was Soviet.)
China is not Communist. Or Collectivist. China is a dictatorship or aristocracy – strong arguments either way. There is no ‘socialist democracy’ in China. There is only Winnie the Pooh picking winners and losers based on his mood. They can call themselves the CCP until they’re blue in the face, doesn’t make it true.
But Communism! That’s a big scary evil word to all the boomers and normies! Evil Commies with nukes and guns and the second strongest army in the
worldUkraine!As to shareholders? China cares VERY MUCH about shareholders, because while they are not at all beholden to them (just try it,) they very much would like to take their money. Unless they can keep taking their money and convincing them there’s a cut for them, their house of cards (infinite double digit growth, Evergrande, predatory loans in Africa, etc.,) falls apart.
Well said, and bonus points for the Winnie the Pooh reference.
You do not have to owe at the end of the year. You just need to have tax liability. For the wage-earner who is having taxes withheld throughout the year, you can still get your overpayment refunded, you just can’t reduce your tax liability below zero. Refundable tax credits can reduce your tax liability below zero, getting you back more than you paid in.
It’s confusing terminology and difficult for people to track, which is frustrating. It takes about 60k gross income for most single people to have enough tax liability to take full advantage.
Beyond that, leasing can (essentially) get the credit despite disqualification from some companies, since they get the commercial vehicle credit and may choose to pass some or all along to the lessee. You don’t claim it on your taxes, it just gets taken out of the price (if they pass it on–be sure to check into it before signing anything). Tesla, of course, doesn’t do lease buyouts, so it doesn’t work out for a Model 3, but it’s an option.
The bit about Tesla pricing is spot on. I was close to buying a 3 a couple months ago, but couldn’t get past the shady price representation on their website.
If you can’t afford it without the rebate, you shouldn’t buy it. You might not get the rebate.
China, phase 3 sounds a lot like malaise era GM.
As far as affordability goes, we need the electric car equivalent of a base model Mitsubishi Mirage with 200 miles range, and it needs to be inexpensive/easy to repair. The EX30 and Model 3 are not it. Their cost is 2x too high and they are complicated messes that can only be worked on with proprietary tools/software(albeit Tesla is kinda/sorta making its stuff open source gradually over time).
The automakers just aren’t interested in building affordable EVs. It could have almost been done in the 1990s. Here we are, 3 decades later, with much better motor, controller, and battery technology available, yet no such car available, in spite of massive latent unmet demand for such. A focus on aero slipperiness and mass reduction in order to get more range per unit of battery capacity, allows the use of a much smaller battery. We don’t need massive 100 kWh+ packs in $70,000+ trucks. 25-30 kWh will do just fine in a sub-$20k vehicle to get a 200+ mile range if the car is actually designed with efficiency in mind.
Affordable and Profitable are two different animals. Even Barra admits it would be 2030 at best before EV’s might be profitable at 30K price point.
And given it’s Mary Barra, that means you should assume at best 2040 but far more likely 2050 and beyond.
That $30k price point may be true for SUVs, trucks, and crossovers, but with sedans and compacts/subcompacts, things could get much cheaper.
James Worden, designer of the Solectria Sunrise sedan, claimed in 1996 his car would have been $20,000 in mass production. Of course, that is in 1996 dollars, but this was also with more expensive production methods for inverters/motors/batteries coupled with the fact that the batteries were NiMH and had inherently high materials costs(Lanthanum is neither abundant nor cheap). This car had a 200+ mile range in normal driving conditions, off of its 26 kWh battery.
Want affordable EVs? That 26 kWh is the sort of battery pack size that must be targeted. Want to get 200 miles range with that tiny battery? Give up planned obsolescence regarding styling/design, in the interest of a slippery, low-drag body that is going to be used for the next 30-50+ years. The Sunrise had a 0.17 drag coefficient, about half that of GM’s current EV offerings.
It’s not rocket science. These companies have billions of dollars and massive teams of thousands of engineers behind them, and yet they expect us to believe that they can’t match what a small business did 3 decades ago with less tech at its disposal?
And if you believe that, there’s also a 100MPG carburetor that runs on water the oil companies have been keeping secret for a century.
Yes, they actually built a few. Yes, they proved the range out. Yes, the technology existed. But $20,000 manufacturing cost? No. Not a chance in hell. Composite body panels? Sure. Saturn did that. Composite chassis? That’s still the exclusive domain of supercars and hypercars, and didn’t even reach affordability there until 2006.
Most of the car’s efficiency was from its aerodynamics. Something of similar efficiency could have been built with conventional materials/methods if the composite chassis was a cost issue. The car might have gained 300-400 lbs. That wouldn’t have had a drastic effect on its efficiency or range.
Regarding the EV components and batteries, plus the cost to build a basic car, I definitely believe it. In 1998, former chairman of Energy Conversion Devices, Robert Stemple, showed a presentation explaining the relationship between production volume and component costs. In volume for 20,000 EVs per year, the cost of the NiMH battery would come down to $150/kWh. For a Solectria Sunrise with a 26 kWh pack, that is $3,900 for the battery. Similar economies of scale when applied to the motor/inverter also showed great cost reduction vs hand building them, almost approaching the raw material cost plus energy input costs for those items.
The OEM automakers were hostile to the idea.
This is absolutely false.
The rolling efficiency is heavily influenced by the aerodynamics. This is completely and utterly irrelevant without the weight advantage. Without the impossible to manufacture composite chassis, it does not work, end of discussion.
And just how ‘does not work’ are we talking? The GM EV1 has a curb weight of 3,000lbs and a 0.19Cd making it pretty much on par with the Solectria thanks to diminishing returns and rolling resistance.
The Solectria was 1,500lbs. That is literally the only reason it worked at all. Period. Aerodynamics are irrelevant. 0.19Cd vs 0.17Cd is margin of error before the EV1’s superior rolling resistance efficiency. Solectria sure as shit didn’t have custom Michelins and hollow magnesium wheels. And both used the exact same batteries. Go look it up. GM/Ovonics NiMH. They just had differing arrangements.
And in mixed use? All of the range was because it was half the weight and less than half the motor compared to the EV1. If any part of it was truly superior to the EV1, it would have done better than double the range with comparable weight or comparable power. But it didn’t. It had to halve the weight and reduce the horsepower to nearly a third of the EV1’s.
And the only way you get that weight and make it almost tolerable with 51HP? With the impossible to manufacture composite unibody. Period. “Oh the EV1 was ol-” Same exact goddamn batteries. Exact same 3 phase AC design. Same plastic body panels. And the EV1 went with an all aluminum-alloy unibody, which was also bleeding edge at the time.
It’s not even remotely close. The Solectria was an objectively terrible design, impossible to manufacture, with guaranteed high warranty expenses, and would have been utterly impossible to sell.
The GM EV1 had a larger frontal area than the Sunrise to go with its slightly higher drag coefficient. It needed 150 Wh/mile to cruise on the highway, in spite of having double the Solectria’s weight. By contrast, the Solectria needed about 120 Wh/mile to cruise on the highway. I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the difference was from the small aero differences between the two.
Regarding range, mass has its most major impact on city range, where long range is arguably greatly less of a concern than it is on the highway where wind resistance dominates the vehicle’s efficiency. The EV1’s city range was significantly less than it was on the highway, but this disparity didn’t exist with the Soelctria because of its low mass. I’m all too aware of how mass effets efficiency at lower speeds. I did build a vehicle that only consumes 8-10 Wh/mile after all, because it weighs 91 lbs.
The Solectria was indeed very power starved and absolutely needed its low mass with the choice of motor and inverter it had. It took 17 seconds to go from 0-60 mph. Imagine what could have been if it had the EV1’s drive system to go with its low mass. But the inverter and motor was James Worden’s own design, and not the same motor/inverter designed by Alan Cocconi for the GM EV1. The latter offered close to 3x the peak power.
I’m fully aware they used the exact same batteries. I’ve read multiple books and SAE papers that covered these cars. “Charging Ahead” by Joe Sherman and “The Car That Could: The Inside Story of GM’s Revolutionary Electric Car” by Michael Shnayerson were both very informative.
The EV1 is yet more proof of what was possible 25 years ago in addition to the Sunrise. The Chevy Bolt needs almost twice as much energy per mile of travel and thus needs twice as much battery for a given amount of range vs. the EV1. They’ve taken their best advancements and simply shelved them not to be used. In fact, EV1s that were donated to universities had their drive systems bricked in order to keep them off the roads.
Also, I mistyped above. The Sunrise wasn’t 1,500 lbs. It was 1,433 lbs WITHOUT batteries. Its pack was somewhere around 800 lbs, so it wasn’t half the EV1’s weight, but somewhere around 500-600 lbs less than the EV1’s weight.
The lead-acid battery equipped Sunrises were significantly heavier than the NiMH variants of the car, but even then, 120 miles range was possible(in fair weather, on the highway).
In any event, the cars both had close efficiency figures. GM could do it again. They could built a 4-seater with that sort of aero, maybe even offer gasoline ICE and diesel variants of it in order to put out something efficient without any of the EV’s range anxiety. And by keeping it very basic, it could be kept inexpensive.
Can I just say, seeing two competent engineers argue is an amazing learning opportunity for soft-science putzes like me.
I agree with you, and here’s why:
The Mitsu Mirages of the world are competing with gently used cars that are a class above them. Those gently used cars still have at least 10 good years / 100,000 good miles to give. There’s no equivalent (at least not yet) for electric cars. The entry point for electric cars is above the median vehicle price when you get down to it; they’re still luxury items. There’s not much there in the bottom half of the market. With electric cars, we are where we were for traditional ICE cars about 30-40 years ago — where a used car is still a pretty big gamble. You could roll the dice with something whose battery may be toast, and maybe you’ll get lucky like David did and get it replaced, but there’s not a lot of good affordable options, even on the secondary market. If the intent is for the entire industry to go electric (which appears to be the way we’re headed with legislation), then a healthy product line across the range is necessary. We’re not there yet.
The most I have paid is just over 30k. The least? Other than free or trades, a couple grand, I think? I should keep better track, but my best deals have been trades.
The first car I ever bought was a Mercedes 300 SDL for $1,200. My Triumph GT6 also cost the same amount. That tends to be the sort of price point I aim for. The benefits are obvious, especially not having any auto loan or debt, never having to pay interest. Although I did put far more than the purchase cost into both of them for parts/maintenance over a period of years, especially the latter since I converted it to electric.
The most I ever paid for any vehicle was $8k for a Milan SL velomobile, but that’s a bicycle, and I mainly bought it to study in order to improve the design of my custom microcar build. It’s aero slipperiness that I’m after. This particular vehicle only needs 1 horsepower to hold 65 mph on flat ground. I want to eventually build a vehicle like it with AWD, more ground clearance, wider track, longer wheelbase, similar drag coefficient, weight of around 120 lbs, that also has at least 120 horsepower from hub motors. Wouldn’t that be fun… and dirt cheap to operate(taking the bus would be more expensive, and perhaps the only way you could have cheaper transportation is to hitchhike or hop a freight train).
1 pound per horsepower sounds like a blast. I would love to build out a lightweight sand rail type thing with hub motors someday.
The hub motor tech for this existed 10 years ago. But the hub motors themselves to allow this are not on the market. AMZ Technologies was one of them, having built a car with the University of Zurich that used them which could accelerate from 0-60 mph in 1.7 seconds. The motor weighed 7 lbs and made 50 horsepower peak.
Currently, the best I could do in a 120-ish lb vehicle is maybe around 30 horsepower, at least with available hub motors that can be purchased off-the-shelf. And these available hub motors are using tech from the early 2000s, cheaply available in China…
With mid drives, I could get substantially more power, but with compromises and added complexity I’d rather not have to accept.
$25k for a Model 3 actually seems right for that POS. Last month was my first time in one back & forth 30 mins from airport. Wife is in Uber Tesla’s all the time. I said to her is the ride always this uncomfortable and they always this noisy? She said she always gets nauseous in all Tesla’s cause the ride is horrible. I’ve always equated it to a Honda Civic, but now I think that’s an insult to Civics, they ride better and do not have that much cabin noise.
The most I’ve ever paid for a car is $27K for my Subaru in 2019.
The least I’ve ever paid for a car was $500 for a 1981 Datsun 200SX in 1993 that I drove for another couple of years until it had an unfortunate merging with a drainage ditch one extremely foggy night. To this day that’s still the bar by which I measure all purchases. $3500 for some goofy ass Apple goggles? THAT’S SEVEN DATSUNS!!! I guaranty absolutely nobody will have 7x more fun with those goggles than I had with that Datsun.
I bought a 1970 Buick Le Sabre with a 455 for 300 bucks in high school. it had no tranny fluid in when I tried to drive it out of there, so they dropped the price to $250. Drove that for a couple years and sold it to some frat kids for $600. I think the most I spent initially for any car was $25,000. I tend to buy low and sell high. but I also prefer to wait for the right deal. that 25K car books for 27K these days and I have driven it for 4 years.
The Tesla Model 3 Is Also Now Dirt-Cheap
“Good Lord, that’s tempting, isn’t it?”
Well, sure, but the downside is you’d have to live in California to get the fully discounted price.
Yeah, I’m not holding my breath for Texas to start offering EV credits any time soon, if anything this state is going the other direction.
Colorado has really good rebates as well.
The most I’ve ever paid for anything other than my house was the $16,500 I spent on my 2006 XJ8 back in 2012. It’s still my primary vehicle for the most part so as you can see I’m kind of frugal when it comes to cars, and this is coming from someone with a fleet that numbers in double digits.
The least I ever paid for a car was the 924 I rescued from 16 years of sitting: $0.
The least I’ve ever paid for a car was a funny story.
A local dealer several years ago had a promotion where they brought out a bunch of used cars with no price tags on them, lined up a bunch of people at a starting line, and had you race to the cars. Once everyone had picked a seat, they came around, revealed the mystery prices, and offered you the chance to buy the car. The person in the driver’s seat got first chance, then passenger, then back seat, and so on.
The ads that went out for this promotion listed cars starting at $14 (this was in 2014). So my wife and I strategically scouted the lineup before the race, picked our marks, and sprinted for them. Some athletic guy next to me was making for the same beater I was, but foolishly wore sandals and lost his footwear halfway through the sprint. And that’s how I ended up with a 1998 Grand Am for $14 (My wife secured our backup choice, a 2001 Chrysler Concorde for $495).
I did also win a free car in a giveaway drawing once, a 1996 Fleetwood with 250,000 miles on it that I sold to a neighbor kid.
The least I’ve ever paid for a new car is $6999 for my 2017 Fiesta; I’ve told the story here before but basically it was a comedy of errors by the dealer that I did not feel the need to correct for them.
As a Certified Cheap Bastard, my two car purchases in life have totalled $5,500. Please do not ask how much I’ve had to spend on parts to get those two cars running reliably, much less hours of my own labor. Please also feel free to ignore how much I have spent on my 3-bicycle fleet, which is, um, not a small number.
My mountain bike cost more than a decent used car, I hear you
“Please also feel free to ignore how much I have spent on my 3-bicycle fleet, which is, um, not a small number.”
As a fellow certified Cheap Bastard I’ve had ~15 bikes come and go over the past few years of which the highest purchase price was $100 (and that was for what was a top of the line bike of its 1980s day). Mid range 80s bikes about half that. Some bikes were given free from people just looking to clear out the garage.
I love Craigslist!
I said this on Thomas’ article but it bears repeating: the EX30 is about to change the game. We are going to look back on it as a watershed moment for EVs in a few years. I don’t think there’s a more appealing EV on the market at the moment. It’s stylish. It’s relatively affordable. It has good range and power (I mean the 168 horsepower Hyundai EVs are now obsolete). It’s a good size and an extremely practical package…little SUVs are really just hatchbacks.
The sooner we all learn to accept that the better….and as someone who went from a traditional hot hatch to hot CUV, let me tell you…the usability is a huge upgrade and the sacrifices you make are minimal. I get that the haptic tech hell world interior is probably gonna suck, but even as a technophobe I have to say that it’s not enough of a compromise to sway me away or put a damper on the car.
This thing is damn near perfect and it’s going to be at the top of my list the next time I’m in the market. I’ll be interested to see how much the dual motor AWD one will eventually go for, because those performance numbers are eye popping. You’ll be able to annihilate Golf Rs, CTRs, stock V8 pony cars, the German mid tier (M Lite, S, fake AMG) performance sedans, etc.
In a cute, cheerful little crossover that can seat 4 adults. Let me tell you…blowing peoples’ doors off in an innocent looking CUV is ridiculously fun. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had folks pull up next to me when I’m hooning the Kona N with perplexed looks on their faces. It never gets old.
The EX30 has a roofline 2″ lower than a Chevy Bolt. If Volvo needs to call this car a crossover instead of a hatchback for people to buy in, that’s fine with me.
I also saw my first Kona N in the wild yesterday and…I don’t hate it? Maybe it looks more garish in loud colors, but the one I saw was black and just looked like a slightly bulgy hatchback. The vibe is definitely “I wanted a Veloster, but I’m also a self-respecting adult with some adult responsibilities,” and that’s a perfectly cromulent reason to buy one. It unfortunately looks like history will be throwing the Kona N into the same folder as the Juke Nismo, but that’s no reason not to enjoy owning one.
I agree, as mine is black. It’s a little aggro looking in the slate blue color and red, but both white and black tone things down a bit. And you’re literally describing my exact use case…I’d been smitten with the Veloster N for a while but between the wife not knowing how to drive stick and living in DC where the traffic is beyond horrendous, I didn’t want to daily a manual.
Then they released the DCT, which was widely regarded as the better transmission for the car, and they had my attention. I tried to sell my wife on the VN but she thought it was immature looking and didn’t want to deal with the weird door layout and the fact that it only has 4 seats. I begrudgingly said I understood and then went to look at the Elantra N…which drives magnificently but has a face that only a mother could love. My wife gave me the same “it’s juvenile looking” response.
And there was the Kona N. It gives me all the rowdy performance and driver engagement in a sensible package that my wife also enjoys. I’ve had it for a year and I remain smitten by it. It really is a fun and useful car and as I said in my OG comment the sleeper aspect of it is really fun to me. I agree that it’s a damn shame that it’s only going to last one generation…I think it was more or less intended to be a stopgap for the dead Veloster N while they flesh out the N EVs but they wound up making a really good product.
As of now they’re not really selling. Most enthusiasts consider it to be the red headed stepchild of the Ns and they’re way too rough around the edges to upsell to normal Kona buyers. I think it’s going to wind up being one of those cars that people come around to later. I plan on keeping mine and taking good care of it for a while. I’d imagine in 5-10 years that a well maintained one that hasn’t been beat to shit will pique some interest on cars and bids.
Don’t get me wrong…I don’t think it’s going to become a future classic or anything, but enthusiasts who like the weirder stuff will always be out there.
Wait, are they actually calling this EX30 a “crossover”?? It looks as much a hatchback to me as any other hatchback.
Usually they put a bunch of shitty plastic cladding and add 2″ of lift on cars they wanna mislabel as CUVs, but I don’t see any of that here.. I’m confused
I buy cars (and electronics) high and drive them into the ground. My Mazda3 was the top spec right after the launch of the last model, and at nearly 10 years old it’s mechanically perfect. (Cosmetically…let’s not talk about that.)
My Camaro was $33k CPO, and that was a lot.