I was at church yesterday when a good friend of mine sheepishly sidled up to me during coffee hour to make a confession. As Lutherans, we get the confession thing over immediately and quickly at the start of service, so this post-service admission of a transgression caught me by surprise.
This friend is an upright sort of guy, with a wonderful family and a mild manner befitting a professor of science. He’s usually one of the first people I know to volunteer to help, and I can always trust him to propose the most logical solution to any problem I have.
What could be bothering him?
“I bought a new car.”
I should have known. For the last year, my buddy and his wife have been trying to juggle three quickly growing kids and a dog with their current fleet: A six-speed Golf Alltrack and an older Subaru Outback. Technically, both of their wagons have five seats for five people, but as their kids transition into being teenagers, I’ve seen the strain it puts on everyone. Plus, with grandparents visiting, I’ve witnessed them having to drive two cars to get places, which is a huge pain. If anyone needs three rows, it’s this family.
Being the local car guy, I’ve spent hours discussing the potential options with this couple. The wife is from Africa and has long desired an electric car and something like the great Volkswagen Microbus she grew up with. The Volkswagen ID.Buzz seemed like a great solution, but the lack of a seventh seat and the car’s mediocre range conspired to take it off the list. The Kia EV9 was a maybe, but the highest range version was a bit expensive.
I mentioned, as I do to anyone who will listen to me, that the Kia Carnival now comes in hybrid form and is a comfortable and attractive choice. Even with the more SUV-like styling, this family of dual-station wagons couldn’t swallow the idea of having a minivan. Minivans, even to someone who grew up abroad, are too associated with a kind of Soccer Mom aesthetic that didn’t sit well with them.
With vans being out, my next suggestion was the Mazda CX-90. It’s the most luxurious of the non-luxury three-row crossovers. It’s the best-handling of any of the cars I’ve driven in the segment. It’s available with a liquid smooth inline-six and, if you’re tempted, with a plug-in PHEV version. Given how much local commuting the family did, the PHEV made a lot of sense to me.
“We got the Grand Highlander.”
Damn.
My next question was to ask if he got a good deal, at least.
“No, of course not,” was his reply.
I guess he could see the disappointment on my face, because he immediately had to justify the decision to me. Here’s his logic, and it’s logic I hear all the time:
- Toyota is a well-known, safe entity
- It’s AWD
- It’s a fuel-efficient hybrid
- It’s not too expensive
- It has an actual usable third row
You can go into many dealerships across the great country of ours and walk out, that same day, with any number of very good three-row hybrid vehicles. You cannot do that with a Toyota Grand Highlander. I know this from experience, because I keep trying to tell people to go and buy other things, and they keep getting on a list for a Grand Highlander.
That’s what happened here. When a Grand Highlander in my friend’s spec finally became available, he didn’t hesitate to drive down to his local Toyota purveyor and drive out with his Grand Highlander (he kept the manual Golf wagon, though, because that’ll be something that never happens again). Again, this keeps happening. There is nothing I can say to stop any of my friends, who are in that we-have-kids-and-need-a-big-crossover space, from buying a Grand Highlander.
Even if I can get them to test drive other cars, they won’t do it. I had one friend who went and test drove, on my recommendation, the Hyundai Santa Fe Hybrid (which I did talk my Brother-in-Law into getting, so I’m not striking out every time). I’ve known this guy since we were both in middle school. He and his wife both liked the Santa Fe but didn’t trust that everything would keep working, based on nothing but a vibe.
It was here that I wanted to point out that the Grand Highlander is partially in such demand because it was pulled from the market due to an airbag issue, but none of my friends think that’s a big deal. Their logic is that it’s a Toyota, so it’ll be fine.
My biggest issue is that I can’t give anyone a good reason why they shouldn’t buy the big crossover. Is a minivan better for a big family? Obviously, Toyota makes a great one if they really want a Toyota. But many people don’t want a minivan.
Is the Mazda going to handle better? Yes, but if you don’t plug it in all the time, the cost/fuel savings are probably nil (the EPA estimates it’ll cost you $750 more to fuel the CX-90 plug-in, given current energy prices), and people don’t often care about handling. Does the Santa Fe look better? This is a judgment call, of course, but I think the Santa Fe is interesting, whereas the Grand Highlander is kind of boring.
I could make an argument for almost any other competitive vehicle, and have, but the Grand Highlander does occupy a real sweet spot. You may have to wait for one, and you’re not going to get a great deal, but at under $50,000 for the well-equipped base LE, it’s already a fair price. At 36 MPG combined, the Grand Highlander Hybrid in mid-hybrid trim is more efficient than the Carnival Hybrid on paper.
Ultimately, though, besides being a Toyota, the Grand Highlander benefits from having a third row that’s actually big enough for adult human beings. The back row of the Grand Highlander has, in fact, about three inches of legroom on the CX-90 and two inches of hiproom. That’s a big deal for people who have to regularly put another kid (or adult) in the way back. Mercedes echoed this in her glowing review of the Grand Highlander:
For starters, the rear doors open up wide, revealing second-row seats with easy levers to pull to slide them out of the way. From there, you can use a step to get into the third row. I’m not a small person by any means, yet I found getting into the rear of a 2024 Grand Highlander easier than any recent SUV that I can think of. Dare I say, getting in and out of the third row of the Grand Highlander can be graceful. Usually, I tumble out of these things, looking like a drunk.
Once you’re situated in the third row, you’re greeted to an environment that Toyota says is designed for adults. Well, Toyota is technically correct here. As a test, I left both of the second-row seats in their rearmost position. This would give the second-row passengers plenty of legroom. Toyota says the second row has 39.5 inches of legroom while the third row has 33.5 inches of legroom. For those of you counting, the second row is 0.8 inches larger than the regular Highlander while the third row is 5.5 inches larger. That also makes this third row 2.1 inches larger than the family favorite Kia Telluride!
The Grand Highlander being very good according to Mercedes, obviously, is also a reason why I’m having a hard time arguing against it. It’s a sensible choice. It’s a safe choice. For many people, it’s also potentially the right choice. I will probably borrow one, and then it’ll be even harder to make the case to buy something else.
There’s a lesson here for other automakers in this space, which is that the cost is not the overriding factor for many of my friends. Nor is safety. Brand image plays into it, but brand image is surmountable. The biggest issue is the third row. Once someone climbs back there, it’s hard for them to take anything I say to the contrary seriously.
Would I be happier seeing more CX-90s and Carnival Hybrids and Santa Fe Hybrids on the road? Absolutely. Do I get why all of my friends ignore me and get on a wait list for a Grand Highlander? Yup.
Top photo:
You could just tell me the price and I’d bail in a picosecond.
“As Lutherans, we get the confession thing over immediately and quickly at the start of service…”
I don’t remember any confession thing during church when my parents were desperately trying to make me a god-acknowledging Lutheran.
(It didn’t work)
It’s not that 1970s/80s Lutherans couldn’t cope with substance abuse, adultery, homosexuality, not buying a new VW/Subaru/Peugeot from the local dealer who pretty much sponsored the local Lutheran church….
….it was simply considered somewhat rude to bring up the topic.
Sure we do. We kneel, recite the whole passage “we confess that we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves….” etc.
Gets it out of the way early. No need for a separate trip to “confession”.
Kneel?? Sounds pretty CATHOLIC to me. Missouri Synodians stand. Not sure what ELCA’s do. Probably hold hands in a circle. Buncha hippies.
Missouri does, and so does ELCA. At least the ones I was a member of did (one of them being in the top 5 largest Missouri congregations, but these are all in mid-Michigan).
Maybe these days… But my 1980s boomer kid ass (well, knees) knelt during confession in our LCMS church.
Signed, LCMS kid turned “leftist” ELCA adult.
The absurdly immense number of churches and denominations that differ only on some tiny esoteric practice in the US still blows my mind.
Wild. Every Chicagoland LCMS church I attended in the 80’s & 90’s didn’t kneel.
and look what has happened to chicagoland because of it!!! /s
https://heyjackass.com/
Year To Date
Shot & Killed: 210
Shot & Wounded: 928
Total Shot: 1138
Total Homicides: 254
Time for more kneeling! /s
Oh, we definitely never said that.
“Bondage”?
Oh no – Mother would never utter such a word.
It was bad enough someone broached the topic of kneelers…
…that was a big “nope” from everyone.
We were LCA, IIRC.
Where the adults brought the leftover Ernest and Julio Tawny Port to someone’s house to mix w 7Up to make Wine Coolers for the monthly Sunday afternoon pool parties.
You can’t do anything to stop us from getting one, but Toyota and their dealerships sure as hell can, and they do. We’re going to be in the market for a hybrid family hauler in the next 18 months or so, so naturally I browse listings for them often. Unless you’re willing to buy a fully loaded one (which in the case of the Grand Highlander is nearly $65,000) or pay significantly over MSRP you simply are not getting one.
Toyota focuses on only making the highest trims and intentionally limits the production of both Highlanders and the Sienna to drive up the demand for them and get their dealerships more money in those sweet, sweet markups. I believe this is a great car, but it’s basically vaporware if you want a hybrid.
We’re going back and forth on whether we want to play Toyota’s games and get on a waitlist a year in advance or just get a CX90 at a discount.
Yup. I had been considering a AWD Sienna XSE with the premium pack. It basically doesn’t exist.
My wife’s grandmother went through the same thing when she wanted a RAV4. Couldn’t find one to save our lives and we live in an area overrun with Toyota dealerships. Used ones cost just as much if not more than new, and new ones don’t exist or are pre-sold.
I finally convinced her to take a look at the Mazda CX-5 (she wanted a regular RAV4, not a hybrid), since we’d had two and they did great. She went down to the Mazda dealer, found one she liked out of the 10+ they had in stock, wrote a check for below MSRP, and drove it home that day.
Our friends who have a baby on the way were looking at new cars and the Toyota dealerships wanted so much for the RAV4 that was spec’d to their liking that they went across the street and got an Acura MDX instead because the cost delta was negligible. It’s nuts.
Sounds like they bought a vehicle that both suits their needs and is something they like.
The Santa Fe being a size smaller wouldn’t have been a significant improvement in space for their needs in the long run. There’s plenty of those around anyway.
The Mazda is still a little tighter than others its size from what some reviews say and they had some teething issues.
Siennas aren’t significantly more available from dealers in my area, so it’s unlikely that they ignored a row of those to wait out the GH. AWD versions even less so, and the Carnival doesn’t offer AWD at all. Maybe they don’t really need AWD, but they are coming out of two AWD vehicles after all.
I wish the Grand Highlander came with a Prime (PHEV) option.
We go offroading in our regular Highlander Hybrid, but just like in this story, our three kids have outgrown the third row. The three cram into the middle row, and let the hijinks begin.
How “off-road” are you getting (and which gen, I guess)? I’m basically settled on a highlander hybrid for the next family car, but am curious if it’s worth it to get AWD for the slight price and mpg penalty. My suspicion is it only adds a little bit of capability and I’d probably do just fine with FWD only, but curious to hear others’ experience getting out there in one.
It’s a current gen (2021) Highlander Hybrid. We have an off-the-grid family cabin at the end of a 10 mile dirt road that also has a few steep water crossings. At the water crossings, we have to get out to clear major rocks out of the path of travel (no skid plates obviously on the Highlander) and/or flatten out the approach/departure as much as possible. We did switch to Cooper Discoverer Road+Trail 235/65 18″ tires. The tires make all the difference (they also do really well in snow).
FWIW, I’m a Jeep guy but got sick of waiting for a Grand Cherokee L 4xe (PHEV) that had room for our family of 5, gear, provisions, etc.
Also, the third row of the regular Highlander (as the article mentions) is extremely tight and is only good for the narrow window when kids are in a booster seat or not tall enough to sit up front.
Our next rig will be a PHEV, otherwise we’d consider a Grand Highlander. The short list is the Scout Traveller with the extended range engine and front bench seat.
I like the GC 4xe’s, but am deeply suspicious of the reliability.
As for the third row, we only have two kids and the third row is mainly used for our dog. I really like the Scout, but won’t be able to afford one at launch and it’s not ideal for the dog situation.
I love the concept of PHEVs, but the Toyota PHEVs are a relatively huge price premium over the regular hybrid. I know for me, the math would take a loooong ownership period to work out.
On the other hand, Toyota’s regular hybrid models tend to be like $1-1.5k more than their gas counterparts, so in that case it is easier to see the value.
True, but to me, driving a PHEV is much better, due to the punchiness of the big electric motor. Our regulator hybrid does get great MPG but drives like a motorboat with an underpowered outboard. A PHEV is well worth the $ since the driving experience is awesome conpared to a hybrid.
I found a very convincing argument on why not to buy the Grand Highlander – the price. Good golly did they want a lot, and even as the car market was cooling there were still markups. I got a lightly used Pilot instead for, literally, half the price.
I consider myself lucky in that my wife hated the way the GH drove, and in order to get one with the features we wanted it was significantly more expensive than the CX90 or Pilot we were shopping. I just wish Mazda was better at engineering the interior packaging. It’s unacceptable that at 6′ tall I couldn’t fit a rear facing car seat behind myself comfortably, while in the Pilot it’s a non-issue. I loved the way the CX90 drives and looks.
My wife just upgraded from the Niro PHEV to the EV9.
The EV9 is super nice.
The only drawback is that the dealers suck, we almost walked away twice during the process.
I can’t wait until the patent for Stow-n-Go is up and competitors can start making their versions. It is my single favorite feature on our Pacifica. It’s such a good feature that I bought a CHRYSLER to have it. I know the hybrid doesn’t have that feature and it’s such a same since the feature is so convenient!
The Pacifica Hybrid does, but only for the third row. I use it all the time since the third row isn’t occupied regularly. Usually have car seats in the second row anyway.
I think the stow n go patent is only for the 2nd row since the other minivan players all have folding 3rd row as well (though with no cool name). Folding seats in general is incredibly handy. I’m constantly playing seat tetris in our minivan for different situations.
For a long time, I recommended Hyundai (and then added KIA after the buyout/merger) as “almost as good as a Toyota for thousands less”.
Then I put my money where my mouth was and no, they’re not. But it’s not the cars themselves; they are pretty good. But the manufacturer and importer and dealers are *horrible*. My car had 8 recalls in 10 years, including 2 in its 10th year. I traded it in after the dealer couldn’t get parts for 6 months after the recall. The US arm decided to skip the immobilizer so there was a rash of thefts, driving insurance rates through the roof. Et cetera.
I can’t seriously recommend Hyundai or KIA to anyone.
where as I have had the opposite issue, I’ve had 2 Hyuandai/Kia products and the dealers have been wonderful, service is top notch, recalls handled like any other brand.
as they say YMMV!
Not to mention the entire back lot of each of those dealerships being filled with cars waiting for new engines.
We have an Ioniq 5 (and a Toyota), and my wife and I fight over the keys to the Hyundai.
I had an Elantra Touring that was nearly flawless for nine years. It was subject to one recall, the (original, I think) Takata airbag recall. Work done quickly.
My dad had a 2004 Elantra GT that’s still on the road with one of my cousins at over 275,000 miles. It’s only ever needed a clutch and regular maintenance.
3 of my friends with families have some sort of Toyota (Sienna, Highlander, Rav4), all hybrid. I am the weird one in the group with EVs, but they refuse EVs because of “battery replacement cost”. Even by the time the battery is toast, they probably are not going to have those vehicles, most of them change every 3 years or so. But they love their cars, they go from A to B consistently with no issues, they are not car people, a Miata is not the answer for them.
In their case, Toyotas will also benefit them for depreciation (or lack there of), while the EV’s value drops like a rock.
I always find the battery replacement cost a bit weird as people think the battery will just magically stop working once you reach 100k sure you may have lost some range by then but probably won’t be to noticable until probably 200k miles which at that point are people keeping cars after that? Also have people not looked at the price cost of a new motor or trans on a car nowadays. The Miata I had that had a trans replaced under warranty would have been a bit over 5k out of pocket (and that is on the cheap end) my FJ had its trans replaced under extended warranty and that was supposed to be 6.5k so yeah out of warranty those would have been near battery replacement cost (guess depending on your EV)
Ugggh the battery argument drives me nuts for the same reason. Do people think they won’t have to replace any of the gajillion moving parts in their ICE engines over 100-200K miles??
I currently have Hondas with 271k, 355k, and 372k miles. The only thing I’ve had to replace on the ICE engines (besides fluids and rubber parts) is one head gasket which was $65 for parts – I did the labor myself which is quite easy on a transverse 4. However I’m on my 3rd hybrid battery in 10 years (1st gen insight with 372k). As someone that typically buys cars at 200k miles, battery replacement costs are a real concern for me. ICE reliability has been a complete non-issue.
No more hybrids for me – in my experience, battery replacement costs negate the fuel savings once you get into high mileage.
Yes, this should alarm the millions of buyers of high-mileage first-gen Insights, a car infamous for needing the regular replacement of a battery originally manufactured for less than 20K cars globally.
I like the earlier, smaller Highlanders better, and yes, I’d personally rather have a new Mazda crossover, but that damn reputation of Toyota’s really makes the Grand Highlander the one to pick if you’ve got other things to worry about in life.
Holy crap! It gets 36mpg? No shit its selling.
The hybrid does, which I understand is next to impossible to purchase.
And there are two hybrid systems, so you gotta ask for the right one. The Hybrid MAX is more powerful but only gets 27-28 mpg
…and the Max hybrid has almost 400hp (but less MPG)
Could be worse, he could have gotten a Sequioa.
Sequoias are kind of underrated…
The interior space is undersized compared to the Grand Highlander.
…But low range, lockers, and real towing capacity.
Indeed, there are tradeoffs
Stuff that nobody needs to cart the kids to soccer practice. Also, only a rear locker is optional, however they have no auto-4WD option, which is a failure in this class as every other competitor offers it.
The topshot seemed impossible to me, if only for the red color of the Highlander. Seriously, I’ve never, ever seen one of these not grayscale.
As a resident van weirdo, I find buying any large 3-row SUV to, in most circumstances, to be deeply stupid. I see absolutely nothing appealing about this car, and certainly nothing about it is cool. The premise of walking into a dealership knowing I’m going to be raked over the coals for the most common form factor on the market, I at least know I couldn’t handle that. I get the Toyota tax and everything, but even Toyota hasn’t been batting 1.000 lately. Imagine paying big bucks for a run of the mill 3-row crossover because it’s a Toyota, and then it sucks?
But maybe take that all with a grain of salt. I drive a used Chrysler.
I can answer why it isn’t stupid. They’re wagon people(like me), and these SUVs are the closest thing we can reasonably get to the feeling of a wagon. I cannot stand driving a minivan. And sure, some of that is for reasons that don’t make sense. I’ll buy that. I still won’t buy a minivan.
I was right there with you for the longest time. I couldn’t bear the thought of a 3 row Toyota crossover, and I’m a true minivan disciple.
But the thing is, Toyota’s hybrid system is unbeatable (the regular one, not the MAX). And as I’ve been looking for a replacement for my Mazda5, I’ve actually landed back at 3-row crossovers mainly because all the current “mini”vans are enormous. I’d rather have a regular Highlander than a Sienna because I don’t need an adult-sized 3rd row, and I prefer the slightly smaller vehicle.
And even in the case of the GH, I think I’d lean toward it over the Sienna mainly because I do a little bit of gravel/dirt road driving. It works fine in my small FWD minivan, but the longer wheelbase and increased weight of the Sienna hobbles it pretty significantly.
My general car advice: buy a Toyota. Want something fancy? Buy a Lexus. Sincerely, a Toyota/Lexus owner.
Bingo. Can alternate Honda/Acura as well.
Or Mazda if you’re feeling froggy!
I second the Mazda! Before the Fiat crapped out and we replaced with a CX-5, I would never have said “yeah I’ll get a small crossover.” But the ride on that convinced me.
I have a 2016 Mazda6 and have since October of 2015, when I bought it new. Continues to be a stellar car with Camry-like reliability. I have had exactly one non-maintenance item that I had to fix with it in the ten years/nearly 100,000 miles I’ve driven it.
I’m not sure why anyone would want to talk someone out of the Grand Highlander once you suggest a Sienna and they say “no.” The entire segment was created to provide the biggest bang for your buck, with the resale and lower operating costs likely making it the best deal. It isn’t like any of these are driven with sporting intent.
Most people are not gear head or car fans. They want as boring and predictable as possible and they want nothing that stands out for fear of resale loss. They want to drive the same thing as all their boring friends. SO long live the boring white grand highlander.
What about value retention, either from resale or payout if it gets totalled? With people putting so much money into a depreciating/consumable necessity, the Grand Highlander has a greater expectation to keep it’s value than the other options you mentioned, and I would venture the data is there to back it up.
While I don’t think this is at the forefront of people’s minds when they buy a car, I bet there’s a subconscious impact.
What is with peoples aversion to Minivans? This couple should have bought a minivan when they bought the Golf, Subaru, AND this.
Fragile masculinity is one reason people avoid minivans.
In this case, even women can suffer from fragile masculinity.
True, patriarchy hurts everyone.
It’s generally the wives that have the visceral aversion to a minivan. For some reason, appearing to be the person that they are is abhorrent to them.
A feminist stand against soccer mom stereotypes.
I’ve certainly seen more of an aversion from women than men. But I’m not sure that’s typical.
Oh ffs. “If you don’t like [thing x], you must have some sort of mental issue.” What a crap take, I’m sorry.
JFC I did not say any thing about a mental issue, Sorry to trigger you so strongly.
Funny. I consider minivans very manly. “I have sired enough spawn to fill this many seated people mover!!”
Minivan aversion is real… often until one experiences the modern minivan. They are then almost immediately hooked. Belting kids into car seats with that big door opening?! Life changing.
Belting kids into car seats? Children these days have it easy. When I was insolent, I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds; pretty standard, really.
But did you routinely have your scrotum shaved?
By a Zoroastrian named Vilma.
Thus Spanked (by) Zarathustra
But did you also make meat helmets?
That was my wife! I joked with her that she would drive a minivan for her next car. She was ADAMANT that she’d never own a minivan… until we test drove one. She’s 5’1″ so the lower height made getting kids into carseats easier. Then the 3rd row was MASSIVE. Finally, the sliding doors meant we could still fit 2 cars in our garage without banging everything.
So now we’re proud Pacifica owners ha
That’s not been my experience. I’ve been told how great they are now, and we test drove three before we bought a CX-5 last month, and boy I still can’t stand how they drive. That said, I’m ages past kids that can’t buckle themselve, and never actuall ever had an issue buckling them into sedans, so I can’t 100% relate.
“I’m too cool to be a minivan mom” – my wife when I suggested a Sienna or Odyssey.
We’ve got to flip the script here. “No, <insert name here>, you’re too cool NOT to be a minivan mom.”
Practicality is the antithesis of cool. And so is the minivan.
No way! Check out these cargo shorts. They have tons of pockets and are totally practical. They’re cool aren’t they? … aren’t they? *sniffle*
No, don’t listen to Church. She’s right. She’s cool as hell.
We go off-roading in our Highlander Hybrid, with a destination that involves a few water crossings. As much as I love minivans (the Pacifica PHEV is one of my favorite all-time family vehicles), we need a vehicle with decent approach and departure angles and ground clearance.
With three kids, we are quickly outgrowing the regular Highlander (Hybrid) though. Would love a PHEV three row…
I did not realize there were off roading areas where the difference between a highlander and a Sennia AWD would actually matter. To me the difference is so little that I would think tire choice and skill would make up the difference.
There aren’t.
It absolutely makes a difference. The highlander has nearly 2 inches more ground clearance and is 8.5″ shorter, almost all of which is in the wheelbase. Look here and you can see the difference in approach and especially departure angles:
https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/toyota-highlander-2019-suv-vs-toyota-sienna-2020-minivan/
I love minivan practicality, but the current crop are all so massive that getting them down the dirt and gravel roads I take my Mazda5 on is a non-starter, and I’m back to looking at 3 row crossovers to get a similar sized vehicle.
Exactly this. I recognize our use case is rare, but it’s our reality.
Most of the times, yes.
Our major use is driving to an off-the-grid family cabin deep in the woods. The road has a few water crossings that a minivan can’t handle.. Imagine a V crossing in the road that always has water in it; depending on the storm, it can get quite deep very quickly. The major problem at the water crossing though is the steepness of the approach as well as departure. Most minivans won’t cut it and would get stuck.
Hmm. To me it is odd – these days, a three-row crossover is ABSOLUTELY the “I’m a bougie soccer mom” or “I’m a bougie baseball dad” vehicle. There’s literally NO difference in perceived caché to a minivan, other that I know the SUV owners’ kids will be the ones dinging my doors on the way out.
The inability of people to stay away from the Grand Highlander always reminds me how insane it is that Honda still doesn’t have a Pilot hybrid.
Yeah I just don’t get why Honda hasn’t answered this or the RAV-4 PHEV, two vehicles that Toyota dealers regularly have waiting lists for.
The planetary gear in Toyota’s hybrid system lets them stretch the output up a class (or to the PHEV in the RAV4). Honda’s works very similarly in practice, but since they can only clutch in the engine to run as parallel hybrid at higher speeds there’s no way to scale up to that next vehicle size and offer enough low-speed output, especially for towing.
There certainly is a way to scale it up for higher towing capacity. The units used in the current CR-V has a reduction gear so the engine can directly drive the wheels at lower speeds. That switch included a bump in towing capacity and an increase in efficiency at lower speeds. The limit on how much power can be transmitted electrically is the size of the starter/generator and of course the engine’s underlying output.
RAM is scaling up the generator and engine that they are using for the Ramcharger EREV for towing in range extending mode. No reason Honda can’t scale up the size of the engine, starter/generator and traction motor/generator to achieve the desired tow rating.
The basic 1 speed version was originally designed for the short lived Accord PHEV compliance vehicle. That is why Honda hybrids have much higher output motor/generators than those used in similar sized vehicles that use the Ford/Toyota planetary design. It is also why the current 2 speed version would make for a great PHEV CR-V, if they can carve out enough room for a reasonably sized battery.
Because the Grand Highlander Hybrid costs $4000 more while only saving $552/year at $3/gallon at 15,000 miles/year which means you need to keep the vehicle for at least 7 years just to break even on the higher upfront cost. Drive less? Takes even longer. Honda understands this. They’ve always been about cost of ownership; even if they aren’t the best anymore, it’s till a valid metric of which most hybrids still don’t make sense. A Prius is $6000 more than a gas Corolla. You have to keep your Prius for 13+ years to break even on the higher upfront cost….
This friend now has a huge car payment and has to shove their kids 3 abreast in an uncomfortable 3rd row if they really are going to take one vehicle. Hint: They still won’t take only one vehicle.
The hybrid isn’t the only option on the GH though, if someone is going hybrid they’ve already made up their mind that there’s value in spending extra over the regular gas option, of which the gas GH starts at the same as the Pilot.
The Prius is a cherry-picked example when the Corolla hybrid exists with a base price $1500 higher than the gas Corolla.
Yeah when the Hybrid version isn’t wrapped up with a bunch of other things the price difference is relatively small. The Corolla is a good example where you can recoupe the cost in 3-4 years. Plus as so many people like to forget you’ll get some of that initial investment back when you go to sell as Toyota Hybrids command good prices as used vehicles. Plus in the long run you have lower maintenance costs with longer brake life and fewer oil changes. Win, win, win.
The resale is a good point I’ve considered throwing out there too. I know people like to say “well I don’t care about resale because I keep the car forever” but it’s not a non-factor as you never know what circumstances may change. Especially in a time when upside-down loans have crept back up.
For whatever reason many of those people who state “it will take too long to recover the hybrid premium” always seem to forget resale value. Of course that does vary from brand to brand and is also highly dependent on gas prices but it is still a factor if your primary concern is the overall cost.
FWIW I am quite fond of the J35 in the new Pilot even if the fuel economy is abysmal. Makes good noises and should be easy to work on. Even if hybrid was an option, I likely would have gotten the regular gas engine choice
Toyota is carrying their late-90s and mid-aughts reputation for low running costs and laughing all the way to the bank.
The dealers too — there’s no reason to expect the Grand Highlander is going to be much cheaper to run and more reliable, but the dealers are giving zero discount while every other manufacturer has incentive cash on the hood.
On the other hand, you’ll never need to interact with a Hyundai dealership that still thinks they’re selling to subprime buyers like it’s 2009.
I mean I trust the GH more than anything from Hyundai Kia. Too many engine recalls that have to get replaced over and over again for my taste. At one point, three people close to me were waiting on Hyundai engine replacements. All under warranty. A Sonata, a Santa Fe, and I can’t recall what the third was, but it was a V6. I know a lot more people who drive Toyotas, and far fewer issues. Including two of my own, and I’ve put over 100k on my wife’s Sienna without any issues. It’s not at 160k and still I’ve never even seen a warning light in the thing.
The data seems to indicate that Toyota still tends to come out on top for operating costs.
Generally speaking, their reliability may be overblown. But the hybrid system (regular, not the MAX) is unquestionably the best.
Honda’s is hybrid nearly as good, but they don’t have anything in this size.
I don’t know why you would want your friends to take your buying advice. WHEN the car breaks down, its your fault if they had listened to you.
Conversely, I give list of cars to not buy.
Good philosophy to not get bit in the butt down the road. Any problem with a car you recommended has the potential to be your fault. When they buy what you told them not to the problem just shows that they should have listened to you.
Right. I let them figure out what they want, then either support the decision enthusiastically or end the conversation immediately. Two recent ones come to mind:
Friend #1: “I know the Elantra N is a lot cheaper and easier to get, but you know you’re not gonna be truly happy unless you get the Civic Type R that you really want. Go get it.”
Friend #2: “You bought a Subaru Forester after we just got done talking about all the cool fun cars you could get now that the kids are out of the house? We’re done here.”
Is it wrong that I clicked on the article for the ball cap and not the Toyota?
I clicked because I knew the alternative would be a minivan…and was happily surprised that the CX-90 was also mentioned!
The 1994-1999 Houston Astros Uniform is low key underrated. Not as quite as stylish as the CX-90 though.