I was at church yesterday when a good friend of mine sheepishly sidled up to me during coffee hour to make a confession. As Lutherans, we get the confession thing over immediately and quickly at the start of service, so this post-service admission of a transgression caught me by surprise.
This friend is an upright sort of guy, with a wonderful family and a mild manner befitting a professor of science. He’s usually one of the first people I know to volunteer to help, and I can always trust him to propose the most logical solution to any problem I have.
What could be bothering him?
“I bought a new car.”
I should have known. For the last year, my buddy and his wife have been trying to juggle three quickly growing kids and a dog with their current fleet: A six-speed Golf Alltrack and an older Subaru Outback. Technically, both of their wagons have five seats for five people, but as their kids transition into being teenagers, I’ve seen the strain it puts on everyone. Plus, with grandparents visiting, I’ve witnessed them having to drive two cars to get places, which is a huge pain. If anyone needs three rows, it’s this family.
Being the local car guy, I’ve spent hours discussing the potential options with this couple. The wife is from Africa and has long desired an electric car and something like the great Volkswagen Microbus she grew up with. The Volkswagen ID.Buzz seemed like a great solution, but the lack of a seventh seat and the car’s mediocre range conspired to take it off the list. The Kia EV9 was a maybe, but the highest range version was a bit expensive.
I mentioned, as I do to anyone who will listen to me, that the Kia Carnival now comes in hybrid form and is a comfortable and attractive choice. Even with the more SUV-like styling, this family of dual-station wagons couldn’t swallow the idea of having a minivan. Minivans, even to someone who grew up abroad, are too associated with a kind of Soccer Mom aesthetic that didn’t sit well with them.
With vans being out, my next suggestion was the Mazda CX-90. It’s the most luxurious of the non-luxury three-row crossovers. It’s the best-handling of any of the cars I’ve driven in the segment. It’s available with a liquid smooth inline-six and, if you’re tempted, with a plug-in PHEV version. Given how much local commuting the family did, the PHEV made a lot of sense to me.
“We got the Grand Highlander.”
Damn.
My next question was to ask if he got a good deal, at least.
“No, of course not,” was his reply.
I guess he could see the disappointment on my face, because he immediately had to justify the decision to me. Here’s his logic, and it’s logic I hear all the time:
- Toyota is a well-known, safe entity
- It’s AWD
- It’s a fuel-efficient hybrid
- It’s not too expensive
- It has an actual usable third row
You can go into many dealerships across the great country of ours and walk out, that same day, with any number of very good three-row hybrid vehicles. You cannot do that with a Toyota Grand Highlander. I know this from experience, because I keep trying to tell people to go and buy other things, and they keep getting on a list for a Grand Highlander.
That’s what happened here. When a Grand Highlander in my friend’s spec finally became available, he didn’t hesitate to drive down to his local Toyota purveyor and drive out with his Grand Highlander (he kept the manual Golf wagon, though, because that’ll be something that never happens again). Again, this keeps happening. There is nothing I can say to stop any of my friends, who are in that we-have-kids-and-need-a-big-crossover space, from buying a Grand Highlander.
Even if I can get them to test drive other cars, they won’t do it. I had one friend who went and test drove, on my recommendation, the Hyundai Santa Fe Hybrid (which I did talk my Brother-in-Law into getting, so I’m not striking out every time). I’ve known this guy since we were both in middle school. He and his wife both liked the Santa Fe but didn’t trust that everything would keep working, based on nothing but a vibe.
It was here that I wanted to point out that the Grand Highlander is partially in such demand because it was pulled from the market due to an airbag issue, but none of my friends think that’s a big deal. Their logic is that it’s a Toyota, so it’ll be fine.
My biggest issue is that I can’t give anyone a good reason why they shouldn’t buy the big crossover. Is a minivan better for a big family? Obviously, Toyota makes a great one if they really want a Toyota. But many people don’t want a minivan.
Is the Mazda going to handle better? Yes, but if you don’t plug it in all the time, the cost/fuel savings are probably nil (the EPA estimates it’ll cost you $750 more to fuel the CX-90 plug-in, given current energy prices), and people don’t often care about handling. Does the Santa Fe look better? This is a judgment call, of course, but I think the Santa Fe is interesting, whereas the Grand Highlander is kind of boring.
I could make an argument for almost any other competitive vehicle, and have, but the Grand Highlander does occupy a real sweet spot. You may have to wait for one, and you’re not going to get a great deal, but at under $50,000 for the well-equipped base LE, it’s already a fair price. At 36 MPG combined, the Grand Highlander Hybrid in mid-hybrid trim is more efficient than the Carnival Hybrid on paper.
Ultimately, though, besides being a Toyota, the Grand Highlander benefits from having a third row that’s actually big enough for adult human beings. The back row of the Grand Highlander has, in fact, about three inches of legroom on the CX-90 and two inches of hiproom. That’s a big deal for people who have to regularly put another kid (or adult) in the way back. Mercedes echoed this in her glowing review of the Grand Highlander:
For starters, the rear doors open up wide, revealing second-row seats with easy levers to pull to slide them out of the way. From there, you can use a step to get into the third row. I’m not a small person by any means, yet I found getting into the rear of a 2024 Grand Highlander easier than any recent SUV that I can think of. Dare I say, getting in and out of the third row of the Grand Highlander can be graceful. Usually, I tumble out of these things, looking like a drunk.
Once you’re situated in the third row, you’re greeted to an environment that Toyota says is designed for adults. Well, Toyota is technically correct here. As a test, I left both of the second-row seats in their rearmost position. This would give the second-row passengers plenty of legroom. Toyota says the second row has 39.5 inches of legroom while the third row has 33.5 inches of legroom. For those of you counting, the second row is 0.8 inches larger than the regular Highlander while the third row is 5.5 inches larger. That also makes this third row 2.1 inches larger than the family favorite Kia Telluride!
The Grand Highlander being very good according to Mercedes, obviously, is also a reason why I’m having a hard time arguing against it. It’s a sensible choice. It’s a safe choice. For many people, it’s also potentially the right choice. I will probably borrow one, and then it’ll be even harder to make the case to buy something else.
There’s a lesson here for other automakers in this space, which is that the cost is not the overriding factor for many of my friends. Nor is safety. Brand image plays into it, but brand image is surmountable. The biggest issue is the third row. Once someone climbs back there, it’s hard for them to take anything I say to the contrary seriously.
Would I be happier seeing more CX-90s and Carnival Hybrids and Santa Fe Hybrids on the road? Absolutely. Do I get why all of my friends ignore me and get on a wait list for a Grand Highlander? Yup.
Top photo:
I’m currently dug into trying to buy a car in this segment. We ultimately want a vehicle that can hold a bunch of stuff. My wife did not like the driving position of the Sienna (even if it was easy to buy) or the Odyssey. So big SUV it is.
The beloved CX-90 sacrifices too much cargo space compared to the GH, Pilot, Palisade, Telluride, or if you move up segment a bit to the XC90. Handling isn’t going to sell a three-row SUV to many people. I just want a comfortable highway cruiser with room for the stuff.
My summary so far:
GH Hybrid – Can’t even test drive one and dealers are still trying to mark them up. Any used one that pops up is gone in 24 hours. Hell, finding a review of the regular hybrid is hard enough. Seems Toyota just sent out Hybrid Max models for every media request.
Toyota themselves pack the stickers with black wheels, floormats, door edge guards, and other accessories you probably don’t want. If the build website says $55k, good luck finding one headed to a dealer for less than $57k. Add to the pain further if you are unfortunate enough to be shopping in Southeast Toyota territory.
Some sales guys also seem disinterested in even bothering with you as a customer. I get it, you want a sale today, not in a month. When can I realistically get one? Who knows. Can I get one with gray interior instead of the black? Maybe. I knew more about the Toyota allocation process than the last sales guy I spoke with.
The Pilot, Palisade, Telluride all have pros and cons as well. They aren’t anywhere near fuel efficient, but right now you can buy a loaded version of one of those for about $6k less than a comparable GHH. $6k buys a lot of gas. The Pilot seems to be very reliable and from scouring the internet, it seems the Palisade/Telluride owners are largely happy with their vehicles.
It will be interesting to see how the introduction of the new Palisade hybrid affects the market later this year. So far the ’26 Palisade looks like a space ship compared to the GH.
It’s too bad both Ford and Dodge delete the 3rd-row seat from cop-spec Explorers and Durangos. A trip to a police auction would be a compelling option.
I went weird and got an Acadia. Much sweeter deal, with fair enough HP and 2WD on-demand.
Have been spending less on gas that my previous X3 (regular x premium) and enjoying ACRES of space.
Sounds like a dog wet-farting, but the better deal was way worth it.
On the flip side, it’s a GM product.
:p
More seriously, those are good looking. How does it drive?
Coming down from an X5 and an X3 (times are though), I am not depressed. Plety of power, better composure than I would expect in such a large car (good). Breaking is very smooth.
Floats a bit on high speed ondulations and suffers from torque steering in 2WD (4 banger punches above its weight). Family confort with all that you need and nothing that you don’t
No deal breakers – momma’s happy, so daddy is too…
Just get a minivan, I still can’t understand why anyone needing a real third row would buy anything else…
The Carnival is the answer if only for the to be immediately worn-thin dad joke:
Dad: Hey, do you know why I call you clownbooty?
Kid (Or wife, or friend, or anyone and everyone else for that matter): Why?
Dad: Because your ass belongs in the Carnival. Now get in.
This reminds me of the old saying in IT: “No one ever got fired for buying IBM.”
Is it the best built? Maybe not. Is it the cheapest? Probably not. But it’s the standard, and therefore it’s the safe choice.
Likewise, Toyota might not build the best or cheapest car in a segment, but it’s hard to fault someone for just giving up and choosing the Toyota, because Toyota.
This is great dad content lol. I’ve spent more time thinking about this same decision than I care to admit, and the GH would be #2 for me.
My current family car is a Mazda5, and we regularly load it up with our 2 elementary age kids, an 80 lb lab, a ~1000 lb SPACE trailer full of camping gear, and a combo of bikes/canoe/roof box/kayaks/paddle boards. It is truly an excellent vehicle for our use, but I could use a bit more room, better fuel mileage, easier towing, and would like a touch more soft-road capability. Plus, at 150k miles the Mazda will need a replacement eventually anyway.
Right off the bat I tossed all the non-hybrid options, since nothing gives me more space and better gas mileage without electrification. And although lots of people like to say Toyota’s reputation is overblown, their hybrids are without question the best system out there, both in theory and execution.
I like the looks of the Santa Fe and naturally have interest in the CX-90, but both of those hybrids have a turbo engine paired to a multi-ratio automatic plus electric motor and battery, which makes them more complex with more possible failure points.
Toyota’s hybrid (not the hybrid MAX) replaces the entire transmission with a planetary gear and a couple of electric motors, then adds the battery. Mechanically speaking, there’s less to go wrong in that powertrain than my 5. The new CX-50 and most of the smaller Ford hybrids (including the Mav) license this tech, which should make them as reliable as the Toyotas. But there’s no non-Toyota that offers their hybrid with a 3rd row for the dog.
So that leaves the Highlander, GH, and Sienna.
In the end, the Highlander hybrid wins out for me primarily because I can get a used one from as far back as 2020 that still gets 36 mpg in my budget, but also because the GH and Sienna are just massive vehicles. I don’t need the 3rd row all the time, but it will get enough use that I do need one. I just don’t want the size of the Sienna all the time.
That said, if the highlander didn’t exist or I needed a full-size 3rd row, I’d probably lean GH because the Sienna’s size is a real liability on a gravel road. My Mazda5 does ok on some light dirt roads, but when you add 20 inches and 1000 lbs, a bit more clearance is necessary.
The Ford/Toyota planetary hybrid transaxle is super simple with incredible durability. Many different versions/generations have shown that they are capable of 3-400,000 miles in taxi use.
Note Mazda is just buying parts from Toyota for their current cars, they do say a system using “their tech” is coming but so far have given no information as to its archetecture.
Ford does not license Toyota tech in the typical sense. Both started developing similar systems and both have their own patents for various parts of the system. They pretty much came to the conclusion that they each needed to use the other’s patents. So they came to a cross-licensing agreement. Toyota’s current systems use the dual axis architecture as pioneered by Ford on the original Escape Hybrid and I believe have fully abandoned their single axis architecture.
Now both Ford and Toyota have payed royalties for hybrid tech, but to Paice LLC, not each other.
If I remember correctly, Toyota’s hybrid system is based on research that was done quite a while back in an American university or research institute. Is Paige LLC this entity?
I’ve not heard about the university research, but Paice LLC is/was an independent company, or it seems, just one person that had an idea. His patents seem to be why Ford abandoned their use of a clutch on the planetary gear set to provide a direct drive. The provisions for it are in all the cases of their first generation hybrid system.
Oh, interesting, I didn’t realize the Ford connection was going in both directions (and with a third entity). Thanks!
The thing is both Ford and Toyota came up with their designs that had more in common with each other, than the Paice patents, but apparently submitted patent applications in different orders.
Plus Ford’s connection to Toyota and hybrids actually predates the planetary systems. Ford had been working on a Series PHEV in the late 80’s/early 90’s and decided it was a dead end so they sold those patents to Toyota, who also found out it was a dead end before switching to the power split style system. So yeah dirty little secret Toyota pretty much paid for the development of the Expedition.
Fun fact: the Grand Highlander has 5 inches more 3rd row leg room than the new Armada/QX80 PLUS it has an additional cubic foot of rear storage capacity. Impressive packaging by Toyota.
“There’s Nothing I Can Say To Stop You From Buying A Toyota Grand Highlander”
I do:
You don’t have $42,355–$55,540.
It won’t fit in your garage
You don’t need a giant pedestrian crusher for just you and your Chihuahua fur baby.
Eh, that third one is always negotiable
Chihuahuas are always negotiable.
I can: Don’t buy any of the Turbocharged ones.
If you’re going to buy one get the 2.5L Hybrid.
Turbocharged Direct Injection gas engines are not known for their longevity in general, and even Toyota is not immune from their problems.
Also the E-CVTs (single speed planetary gearset, not a belt or chain style CVT) that come in all of Toyota’s good hybrids are very long lived. There’s a reason Priuses have become the defacto taxi cab of the world.
Not only will the Grand Highlander not fit in my garage, the regular Highlander grew too much and also doesn’t fit. Which is why we still have a 2015 Highlander Hybrid in the family that will last forever, I guess. Nothing, not one thing has gone wrong on that vehicle, and nothing went wrong on the 2nd generation HH that it replaced. Adult lives are often populated with things and people that tend to break down and it’s good to have at least one item you don’t worry about.
Anecdote time! A friend has one, it’s nice. He’s grooming nowhere near 34mpg though. Doesn’t have too bad of a lead for and does a lot of driving that is supposed to be advantageous for a hybrid. He’s averaging mid 20s. Is that enough to take some if the shine off?
Which powertrain is it, though? There are three options, including two hybrids.
The 2.5 hybrid that’s shared with the regular Highlander is the one rated for 36. The Hybrid MAX system is more powerful (and maybe can tow more?) but only gets 26-27 mpg. It’s a fundamentally different system.
I’m guessing the 2.5 based on what I remember him telling me he should be getting vs what he was actual getting for mpg. I remember thinking 34 mpg was a really good number for a vehicle that size, 36 being even better of course.
That tells me there is something wrong.
Probably with the batteries or some connection between the batteries and the drive train.
Getting it fixed will stop the complaining but that might not be the solution wanted here.
Granted it was the previous gen, but I did have a Highlander for a week while the family van was having body work done.
After my first drive I couldn’t wait to get the van back lol.
I’ve owned a minivan for 7 years, and nothing is more tiring than “just buy a minivan” people on the internet.
Yes they’re great, yes they work well for many, yes they probably work for more people than the ones who actually buy them.
But they do have drawbacks, they aren’t better at everything than CUVs, and recognizing that is not some kind of crime. My parent have a GH hybrid. Guess what? It’s a fabulous vehicle in virtually every way, possibly the best all around family vehicle ever built. The idea that some factor might only be 95% optimized vs a Sienna is just a weird, strange argument to me.
The space packaging of a van is so much better though. When I had a Highlander for a week I was immediately surprised at how cramped it felt inside given the footprint that was actually a little bigger than our van.
The GH rectifies this, at least in my eyes. It’s as big inside as my van
Except there’s still not van-sized cargo room behind the third row.
If there isn’t, it’s close.
See reply below. No one needs to convince me a van is awesome. I’ve bought two.
Yeah I’m just saying it’s definitely not ‘as big inside’. You’re not getting a cello behind the third row of a GH, but it fits just fine in any minivan, not to mention having more leg and headroom to boot.
We have a van now, and I agree that for many the GHh is a great fit. As a current small human raiser, I will argue that the sliding doors on a van are far superior to normal doors. But my Odyssey cannot compete with that gas mileage and I wish more brands would step it up besides the Sienna. I like the Carnival, but it’s mpg is poor compared to what I feel a hybrid should get.
“they aren’t better at everything than CUVs”
Like what?
I was all-in as a minivan disciple for the longest time. My current family car is a Mazda5. But I only have two kids and the 3rd row is only a requirement for the dog and for the kids’ friends, so I don’t need it to be massive.
For me, the size of the current minivans is a liability. I can’t fit one in my garage with a hitch rack and bikes loaded, but I can fit my 5 or some of the 3 row CUV’s.
I also don’t trust getting them down some of the dirt roads we travel. My 5 can make it, but only because it’s small and light enough to be a bit nimble.
There was once a time where a minivan drove better or was more efficient than the CUV, but that’s not really the case either with the Toyota hybrids.
So if I don’t need/want the extra size and can benefit from even the most marginal off-road improvements with no mpg penalty, the CUV wins out, especially if there’s a slightly smaller option.
Fair enough. I also have a 5 and love its versatility but I agree as stock it’s not the best choice for bombing down dirt roads. A good lift kit and more sidewall might fix that though.
Towing, ground clearance, entry hip point, AWD availability, et al
Like guys, I own a minivan! You don’t need to convince me of its virtues! But let’s not act like it’s perfect for everyone in every circumstance please!
Towing, ground clearance, entry hip point, AWD availability, et al
Fair points. Some of those things are factory options on minivans. There are aftermarket lift kits to bring ground clearance and entry hip points more in line with what CUVs offer if those are really desired:
https://www.journeysoffroad.com/toyota-sienna.html
https://www.journeysoffroad.com/grand-caravan.html
“Like guys, I own a minivan! You don’t need to convince me of its virtues! But let’s not act like it’s perfect for everyone in every circumstance please!”
Oh they’re not. No vehicle is. But as a vehicle to do most of the things most people need a vehicle to do it’s a solid choice.
Average suburbanites are not going to outfit their Sienna with a lift kit when they can just go buy a Grand Highlander or a Highlander to start with, though.
Especially when they are typical Toyota buyers who see cars as appliances akin to a dishwasher.
If it was a dealer installed kit they might. Especially if it was marketed with a campaign to help middle aged couch potatoes delude themselves they are young, attractive people living an active lifestyle.
I would love to throw a lift on my Mazda5 and there’s an older sienna around the corner on a 2″ lift that looks great, but that’s going to mess with the driving dynamics, reliability, and gas mileage of the minivan. It’s just not as practical as the already lifted CUV.
That’s a great option for the enthusiasts here who’ll spend more money on cool/fun than boring, but it’s just not a more practical option.
Too bad nobody makes hydraulics for minivans; normal to low for street, raised for gravel.
Took the words out of my mouth.
It drives me bananas that people don’t want a minivan due to the “soccer mom” vibes when they are, in fact, soccer moms….and then go and purchase something as sinfully boring as a Toyota Grand Highlander. Aren’t crossovers the dorky minivans of this decade?
Yes. Soccer moms switched to crossovers years ago. All the while continuing to point the finger at minivans so they won’t feel like they’re driving soccer mom cars. The same dynamic played out between wagons and minivans back when I was a kid. And it will play out again once crossovers finally go out of style.
Have you ever read the Dr. Seuss book about Sneetches? This is the same behavior that drives a lot of fashion choices.
3-row SUVs are the automotive equivalent of the famed LBJ quote:
“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket.”
just replace white/colored with SUV/minivan
There are only two 3-row SUVs with a great 3rd row seating. VW Atlas (best) and Chevy Traverse (2nd best). I speak the absolute truth. Everything else doesn’t come close.
I have a couple of friends who listen to me on cars, but beyond them and family, I don’t generally give advice on car buying.
I always remember one of the writers for Car and Driver who wrote about recommending cars. This was in the early 2000’s, and a friend of his had a Chevy Trailblazer that she didn’t like. He sang the praises of such vehicles as the Acura MDX, the Highlander, and others, and you wanna know what she bought?
A GMC Envoy Denali.
The level of soul crushing came through in the page like nothing I’ve ever read before.
That’s awful. She should’ve bought a Buick Rainier.
We car experts: People dont ask us which cars they should buy. They ask us for confirmation of what they ve already decided on buying. I ve given up. I say, “what are you thinking of.” And leave it at that.
I think that works for every expert in every field.
It is optimal when getting paid to do it.
My mother-in-law was looking for a 3-row SUV-type thing to replace her aging Chrysler Town & Country since both of my wife’s siblings had become independent-ish teenagers and didn’t ride with her as much.
I said “Pretty much anything except a Traverse/Acadia/Enclave with the 3.6.” She came home with a 2014 Acadia.
The Grand Highlander would be less hot if they didn’t botch the Lexus TX… You can’t get the Lexus with the efficiency hybrid setup, only the performance one, and if you get a hybrid it’s extremely difficult to find one with a sunroof…but neither of these problems affect the Grand Highlander.
Fun fact: the Lexus TX 550h+ PHEV Luxury does not have a sunroof of any kind even as an option (they’re mono-spec).
…. TX is goofy looking
People buying these should wiat ca. 5 years instead. Then the oldest Ssangyong Rodiuses (Prius-Prii, Rodius-Rodii?) will be more than 25 years old.
People should just buy the damn minivan.
I’ve rented Pacifica’s twice and been very happy each time.
I’ve had a Pacifica Hybrid since 2018. Its reliability has not been stellar but it’s just so much nicer than any competitive option that it’s hard to go back.
I’ve been spoiled by Toyota/Acura reliability and my last Chrysler ownership experience was far less than stellar. I also live in an area where one AWD car is helpful a few times a winter. I’m looking at a ’17 or so Acura MDX to replace my ’05 MDX. I almost never use the third row but like the additional cargo space.
You know, we have a 2014 Highlander XLE with about 125k miles, and it’s been in the shop twice. Once for a clogged oil passage for the variable timing, and once for a bad starter. Every 6 months I change the oil, and every 20k or so we run it over to the local shop for a shakedown. In a year and a half it’s likely going to become our oldest kid’s daily ride, and my wife is already eying another Camry, which is what preceded the Highlander. Toyota brand loyalty and brand identity is STRONG.
I had a Grand Highlander as a rental last year. I just don’t get it. For that use case, a minivan makes WAAAAY more sense. Ultimately all of these stupid 3-row crossovers are just bad minivans. Though I assume Siennas are still stupidly expensive and even harder to get.
Wanna bet the wife said she won’t be caught dead in a minivan? That’s the case with all of my friends who really NEED minivans but drive these stupid crossover things instead.
We went years without a minivan despite my wife wanting one because I was stubborn and thought we could make do with a 3-row crossover. A short stint with a 2019 Toyota Highlander and its unusable 3rd row/lack of cargo space when the 3rd was up changed my mind.
I’ve stopped giving car buying advice anytime the car in question won’t be residing in my garage. No one listens, and maybe that’s ok.
I will say your friend seems to have used at least some logic in the purchase since he listed his requirements and then found something that fit. That’s more than I can say for most people. Clearly this guy (based on his garage) values driving engagement though, which he’s not getting from a Grand Highlander. I agree a CX-90 would have really fit.
That’s some good advice, actually. I always feel bad when they don’t listen and maybe that’s a ME problem. I should just be a bit more zen about it. Thanks.
After having some friends listen and most not, I’ve sort of figured out which way it’s going to go when I get asked.
If someone says “hey, should I get one of these” your answer almost certainly doesn’t matter unless it’s “yes”.
If they say “what should I get” your answer still almost certainly doesn’t matter because they already have something in mind they want.
If someone says “hey, I was trying to decide between x and y and I’m leaning toward y” that’s basically the only scenario where an actual conversation on the merits of those two options is going to occur.
All you can really do is suggest things that aren’t on their radar. What they need, what they think they need, what they want, what works best, and what they like rarely overlap in a Venn diagram. Buying a car is an emotional choice and to many people it’s like picking out their outfit in the morning before they go to work. It’s not always about what’s most practical, durable, stylish, or comfortable, but what fits in.
To be honest I can’t blame them. While they may be looking 2-3 years into the future they’re probably drawing from experience of who made the best, most reliable cars / appliances 15 years ago. To be honest I hate the way that most of those Toyota’s drove, but I just can’t say much bad about their engineering, build quality, and back then affordability. In a way I feel the same but more from the perspective of brands to avoid. If Stelantis started making reliable cars now, maybe I’d consider buying one new around 2035, but not until then.
100% a few weeks ago I had a base 2025 Camry Hybrid as a loaner. Its build quality was spot on and I’d expect it to reach 200k with minimal problems. As a car enthusiast, I just hated the dull driving experience like most Hybrid and/or practical Toyotas.
For someone that needs to get from point A to B without problems, A NPC Toyota definitely furfills that role.
Personally I’m more of a 1GR, 2GR kind of guy lol.
Have now owned 5 Toyota’s. Are they the most luxurious – No. Most dynamic or engaging – No. They are safe, durable, economical, and reliable. The paint/finish holds up even if not garaged. The interior materials wear well and often look half their age/milage. The electrical systems hold up over decades. They (now) have top notch corrosion protection. The drivelines hold up forever even under benign neglect. The hybrid system is second to none (both our hybrids are 250k plus).
Yup. My Parents had a 2009 I think Camry that I honestly hated to drive and would always go for the 2003 Forester until they gave it to my sister when I’d visit for Christmas, but I was honestly sad when it got totaled a year ago while fueling at a gas station. During that entire time the only maintenance that had to be done other than typical tires brakes and oil were a wheel bearing started to go bad at 120K so they decided to replace both in the front and both the CV’s. A few weeks later it got rammed by a Ram 2500 that can’t make a tight enough turn.
That has been my experience. I had a ’00 300M Chrysler that was engaging and fast, but a handful on tire wear and maintenance. The motor blew (don’t ask) and I needed a car. I rented a newer ’09 Camry for a week and was blown away. I bought a high milage used ’06 Camry 4 cylinder. My fuel costs were cut almost in half (I was driving 85 miles a day) and maintenance – what maintenance?
When people ask me what car I recommend for them, I just point to the respective Toyota product that matches their need. I’m not sticking my neck out and recommending something that will break and then I’m the guy who recommended a “bad” car.
That’s been my MO for 25+ years and I have yet to have someone come back to me all bent out of shape. It’s always the *safe* choice.
The old-timey saying in the tech industry was “nobody ever got fired for buying IBM”.
Exactly. Usually my answer is “go check out *insert toyota product in that size range* and maybe go test drive *equivalent honda* before you pull the trigger.
And then they go buy the cheaper used Ford/Chevy anyway.
My wife wants a GH. I keep telling her it should be a regular Highlander, or even the current RAV4 (which is HUGE compared to the old ones) instead of something as big as an Edsel.
I’m in the opposite situation. We have a RAV4, and the wife wants to replace it with GH to get three rows, because grandkids might be on the horizon.
Of course where I live here in the Midwest/West, Suburbans, Expeditions and crew cab pickups are standard grocery getters, so Edsel size isn’t a problem around here.
Your wife wants to get a 3-row vehicle for a 2-person household because she MIGHT become a grandparent someday?
Yep. In fairness, the wedding is at the end of the month and they’ve both expressed a desire for kids, so it’s a bit more than a “might”.
Also in the mix are both families’ dogs – the RAV4 is a bit tight with four humans and two dogs, which is happening way more often than you’d think.
And, given that it could tow our camper (4,700 lbs) and the RAV4 cannot, it’s even less of a silly stretch.
It’s very common. Most folks have the 3-row vehicles even with zero (or one) child/children in that house.
I have a 2016 Mazda6 sedan as my daily driver and people are often genuinely curious as to “how I fit my kids in it.” My kids are 8 and 5.
We just went from a RAV4 to a Sienna and cross shopped the Highlander and GH. The Highlander was the biggest disappointment, drove like a big car, but barely more interior space than a RAV4, and basically impossible to get into the third row if you have car seats in a second. The GH was better in terms of space, especially in the 3rd row but the layout and interior room of the Sienna is still far better.
Third row room and access is the primary decider? No, if that were primary, the Sienna would win. Allegedly Sporty as opposed to Mommobile is primary, even though Allegedly Sporty IS the actual mommobile.
I’m in an area where the neighborhood is shifting towards immigrants from Asian countries, who might be seen as less beholden to the general American zeitgeist. And there are many many minivans showing up here, from older to brand new.
Asians are smart, practical people as a rule.
Exception of the rule: Afroduck
There are always exceptions.
If enough Asian immigrants come along, automakers may bring their Vellfires and Alphards here to cater them.
One can only hope.