I haven’t done an installment of our Phoning It In series in a long, long time, and that’s a tragedy. A horrible tragedy on par with getting one’s tongue caught in a fax machine roller. So let’s solve this nightmare right now, and take a look at a really wonderful example of phoning-it-innery, specifically in the world of crew cab pickup trucks.
Crew cab trucks – trucks that have extended cabs with two rows of seats and four doors – have become the default sort of truck on our roads today. Going back to 2020, single cab pickup trucks only represented 3% of sales, and while those numbers have varied a bit, the overwhelming majority of trucks sold now are double cabs. Carmakers have these things dialed in pretty well now, but back about 50 years ago, that was hardly the case.
It’s two of these crew cab pickup trucks that I want to talk about today, because they’re kind of wonderful in their intense awkwardness, and almost all of that awkwardness is focused on the rear doors of these trucks. Well, the rear doors that are actually front doors, forcibly relocated for their new careers, and the resulting strange B-pillars that grew as a result.
I think the best known of these has to be Dodge’s Crew Cab pickups, which didn’t just re-use the front doors, but actually did take the effort and time to cut the doors down a bit, and yet when they did so they still managed to make it look weird and awkward.
The Dodge pickup doors had a curved trailing edge which looked fine on the single cab pickups:
…but when used in a four-door context, everything just gets weird, fast. Dodge cut down the slight angle of the leading edge of the door, but by leaving the trailing edge curved, there’s a deeply strange and thick triangular-ish B-pillar between the doors.
It’s so awkward! And it’s not like they weren’t already modifying doors – so, it would have killed them to maybe make one door that could actually work for both front and rear? It’s not like making crew cab doors was bankrupting other companies – Volkswagen, for example, had been doing it for years:
…though, to be fair, they only had a door on one side, so they had some cost-cutting of their own. And Ford did seem to make custom rear doors that weren’t perfect but at least didn’t look that weird:
Of course, Ford only made these in minuscule numbers, so maybe they’re not the best examples.
Even worse than the Dodge attempt I think was the solution GM used to get crew cab trucks – most of these were actually built by a company in Oklahoma called Scott-BILT, who took brand-new Chevy C20 pickups fresh from the factory and stretched them out by over 42 inches in the cab area, and put in rear doors, like these:
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Yes, they’re just the front doors, repeated, and for all the complicated chassis work and body reinforcing you’d think maybe they’d tweak that front angled door edge, but no, this was good enough, somehow.
GM even made a four-door vehicle based on this same platform, the Suburban; why didn’t they adapt the Suburban doors to this? It’s not like these were budget conversions, after all – they weren’t cheap at all. I think Suburban doors could have fit, too; here’s a quick mockup:
I bet they could have even sold back the pickup doors to dealers, as service parts!
Interestingly, when GM redesigned the C20 pickup trucks for the third generation in 1973, they actually did use Suburban doors for their crew cab trucks, as you can see:
This absolutely feels more intentional, and is objectively a better design, but my particular set of Brain Problems makes me sort of miss the awkward awkwardness and awkwardivity of the phoned-in design. Maybe they could have leaned in with a sort of triangular-shaped googie-style trim piece on that huge B-pillar?
I suppose with the low volumes that most of these trucks were built and sold in kind of justify the phoned-initude of it all, but it’s still hard to imagine something so half-assed being sold today. And part of me thinks that’s a shame.
Yeah, you’ve really been phoning it in 😉
Look, the most important thing on retaining the design ethic of the standard cab was to ensure a wide-open expanse of flat rear glass which, combined with no headrest, would leave a broken glass imprint of the rear of each passenger’s skull with even a moderate rear-ending collision.
That’s important because you can use their hair to identify them in case other features are, um, muddled.
If we could post pictures here, I’d try making the rear doors into suicide doors and swapping sides to see if it worked any better. Probably not.
Not to be that guy, but the Second Gen C/K Action Line Suburban was actually a three-door. All prior Suburbans were just two-doors. Square bodies were the first four-door Suburban. Action Lines had two doors on the passenger side and just one on the driver side, somewhat similar to a lot of vans that have a slider on the passenger side and nothing on behind the drivers door. Because there wasn’t a driver side rear door to “steal” is why I’d bet that Scott-bilt company just used front doors in the back.
Glad somebody was that guy, because it was about to be me 😀
This is most likely the first time this particular combinations of words has ever been used in an automotive article, possibly ever in the entire history of the English language. Congratulations on once again being a trailblazer Torch, keep up the good work.
I was quite fond of “intense awkwardness,” when I read it earlier up in the article.
As ugly as it looks, vent windows in the rear would be awesome.
And a vintage crew-cab pick up list, and the Travelette isn’t even mentioned? It had unique doors (front to back) possibly from the Travelall, but I’m not sure about that.
I’d still love to get my hands on a ’63-68.
agreed on those vent windows, I miss those
Travelette was far and away the best vintage quad cab truck. I have a 71 Travelall, and yes, the doors interchange on them. IH didnt have the money to get frisky, so there is ton’s of parts interchange.
I love the D series (early 70s) over the C series, but I have a C series (1961) single cab pickup and my father has a 1963 single cab with a utility bed. If I ever decide I really need a full size pickup for myself, I’m either chassis swapping 70s Travelette or a quad cab Loadstar. Those also have unique doors on the back and look fantastic.
Nice. I was strongly considering an IH before I bought my Chevy, but being my first real project, I chose a ’65 Suburban instead, simply because parts were easier to get.
I think I understand – it’s the door glass winding mechanism that’s driving this decision in most cases. At least where the Dodge and the VW are concerned. Dodge made a new stamping for the door but designed it to use the same glass and mechanism as the front door, and VW just didn’t bother having opening glass (I think?)
That Chevy conversion is just unforgivable though – they must have been buying extra doors, so why not buy the right ones?
Because there was no drivers side rear door for that generation of Chevy Suburban. They were actually 3 door, not 4. Only the passenger side has a rear door.
Not from the US so didn’t know this – but I think putting the wrong side door on backwards would probably have looked better!
I can’t say you are wrong on that! I swear there is a two door out there that does that. One door is made, on one side it opens standard, on the other it opens backward. Or am I making that up?
“…but it’s still hard to imagine something so half-assed being sold today.”
I’m currently working at an OEM. I can assure you that almost nothing is fully-assed, and the ass:thing ratio is rarely as high as 1:2.
Mostly it’s all hidden where customers can’t see it though, where it’s less hilarious and more just flat-out depressing.
I do my very best to put as many asses as I can into everything I do. Although the intercooler pipes I designed for a V-engine were rejected for literally looking too much like an ass. My fault for putting the hole for the pressure sensor right in the crack.
LOL
The revulsion I feel when I see those Scott-bilts.
They didn’t even try at all on the International S-Series.
https://cdn.ironpla.net/i/17434/786/5e709339-6eb6-4dbf-bbe7-c83eebaa1624.jpg
Which is kind of funny since Loadstar had unique rear doors that looked correct, way back in the 60s.
And the C-series trucks from the 60’s had their own unique rear doors as well.
https://www.motoexotica.com/vehicles/163/1968-international-travelette-1968-international-travelette-pickup-1200-4×4
I think those were shared with the Travelall.
They were! I posted a picture of a Travelette, as the story was talking specifically about pickups, but the point about shared doors with the Suburban applies here too. My Travelall has the same rear doors.
Also, the doors from C-series trucks pictured above are shared with Loadstar trucks—and there were crewcab Loadstars as well.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1978-international-harvester-loadstar-1600-crewcab/
I think we have talked IH before, but man I love me some quad cab Loadstar. I’m not a big truck guy, but getting my hands on one of those might cause me to run a full size truck.
I think we have talked IH before, Lockleaf, always happy to oblige. I have NO idea what I’d use a quad Loadstar for, and I’d need to be independently wealthy to afford the gas, but it sure would be fun. The Travelall is as big as I can fit in the driveway, and that’s probably for the best.
International cut a lot of costs with the S Series, and that included making as many interchangeable parts as possible across variants. Using the same doors on the front and back of crew cabs was intentional. So was using flat glass everywhere.
For the Scott-Bilt C20, I’m thinking this: (assuming the link works)
https://i.discogs.com/kRxcGD4zITZCtlHNI-IE9nTXRwhi48H11p-k6UYmZt4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:499/w:500/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTQ5NTY2/MC0xNDY3MzE2NzMy/LTE4NTcuanBlZw.jpeg
Since the subject is reusing doors, two questions:
Did anybody make a two-door with only a single door form, so that on the opposite side it was rear-hinged? (I think maybe there was a microcar like this shown here once?)Same idea but a four-door with only a single door form??(bonus question) Trunk lid and hood (boot and bonnet) the same?
The current Citroen Ami/Fiat Topolino/Opel Rocks is set up light that – front hinged on the left, rear hinged on the right
As far as 4-doors, the only thing that immediately comes to mind is the AMC Cavalier concept car from the 1960s, that was designed to demonstrate the possibilities of shared stampings – it used the same doors front and rear, and also the same stampings for the front fenders and rear quarter panels and the hood and trunk lid. Some of the sharing ideas were later used on the AMC Hornet, but nowhere near to that extent
Cool, thanks, I was probably thinking of the Ami. Funny, the driver’s door is the “backwards” one.
The Cavalier – very interesting. Still two different doors though.
Yeah, but they were the same front to back, the driver’s side rear door was the same as the passenger side front door, and vice versa
That concept is pretty cool! Maybe it could’ve changed AMC history?
It was essentially the prototype for the Hornet, they ended up using some of the principles (the Hornet 2-door and 4-door models used the same doors and roof, and the Gremlin shared all of the Hornet’s sheet metal from the B-pillar forward), but didn’t take the panel sharing quite that far, probably due to market realities
I see you got the answers to your response. Somewhat related, Ford used the same doors (barn style, not slider) on the side and back of the Gen2 and Gen3 Econoline.
Zudnapp Janus had 2 doors, front and rear, that were the same stamping. And I literally mean front and rear.
https://images.app.goo.gl/WB6VBdDQUQaFRwRY7
Oh that is great. It’s like an Isetta pushmepullyou. And it qualifies both for two doors the same, and for hood and trunk the same, at the same time!
Freightliner just used the front doors for the rears on their medium duty trucks also.
I like them more than I should
I’ve never seen one of those Scott-Bilt Chevies, but man those are weird!
But they couldn’t have st use Suburban rear doors, because in that generation (much like the VW double cab trucks) they only had one rear door on the passenger side.
You’ve got funny B Pillars too you know Jason. You probably shouldn’t be talking shit.
But seriously, Awkward really is the perfect word for these. It’s like having some strange partial double-vision when I look at them. Thank you for sharing!
Hino’s half-assed solution (rectangular rear door with two door-handle stampings so it can be used on either side) is genius by comparison.
https://www.hinocanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Room-and-power-287×287.jpg?x28212
The problem with the Dodge isn’t the rear doors, they are fine, it’s the front doors that are hideous.
Also, they were work trucks. The workers were lucky to be sitting inside and probably had a union. Farmers never bought them.
Logging and railroad seem to be the industries that bought most of these 70s quad cabs.
Pre-factory-built Ford crewcabs were coach-built and used external hinges. When Ford started building them in 1965, they used internal hinges. That is the tell for Ford crewcabs to spot coach-built versus factory-built ones. That the Dodge has external hinges as a Dodge-built crewcab really surprises me. Cheapness!
But on the Chevy, the back passengers got vent windows. That’s low key genius.
That’s luxury.
I legit have always wondered about these crew cabs! Good writeup.
They kinda *had* to be built on the cheap, because if they cost too much, the company could just buy 2 off-the-shelf regular cab pickups to move 6 workers. I can’t begin to express how narrow of a niche these were and how few were sold.
Yup and the tooling for doors are pretty complicated, not something that a conversion company could afford to tool up for, so yeah just order up a service cab, doors and all those parts that go into the doors. Cut the back off of the existing cab and the front off the service cab and fill the resulting triangle with flat sheet.
They were all low production, minimal profit vehicles so it didn’t pay at the time. by the way, GM didn’t make a 4 door suburban until 1973. The International crew cabs were the best thought out.
Yup and the fact that IH made a 4dr Travelalls made it relatively simple and cheap for them to offer a factory built crew cab, and it actually looked like it was meant to be a 4dr. So many pieces of the cab/body sheet metal were designed for modularity, which is why they were also able to spin up the Wagonmaster pretty cheaply and w/o a bunch of new tooling.
It also meant that the price of a factory 4 door International or, starting in ’64, Dodge, was the hard limit Scott-Bilt was up against. The vast majority of ’60s crew cab trucks were bought on lowest-bidder contracts.
Good point! Plus chances are you could be putting that IH or Dodge, exactly how you wanted it, to work fairly soon after signing that purchase order. Unless you wanted what they may have kept in stock, you’d be waiting for the truck to get built, shipped to Scott-Bilt to re-Bilt it into a crew cab and then ship it to you.
International even took it one step further and sold a small number of quasi- proto-Avalanches.
https://www.motortrend.com/features/1309-september-2013-backward-glances-1973-international-harvester-wagonmaster
Yup, I mentioned that in the comment, thanks for posting that link, I hadn’t seen that before. As noted in the article the Wagonmaster was dreamed up by a guy on the body line who noticed that thanks to the modularity of the design you could build the truck out of mostly existing stampings. So he stayed late one day and set all the pieces in place on an incomplete body. He showed it to some marketing people and they were soon off an running.
I cut down a 65 Travelall and used a single cab rear wall to make my own crewcab Loadstar. It all fits together far better than it has any right to.
GM could have put a back door on just the passenger side.
I could never understand why there weren’t any three-door plus tailgate wagons.
67-72 Suburban was a 3-door. Rear passenger-side door only.
Sorry, I meant car based wagons other than the Chevy Suburban, which was what I was referring to mentioned the available rear passenger side doors for GM
Also excluding all the vans and minivans from the station wagons doors discussion,
Some American vans had driver side rear doors, probably sliding.
No the sliding doors came later after the 8 door vans sales had dropped from pitiful to almost non-existent.
When was later?
There was an article on one turned into a custom van, but had been special ordered by a plant that had to have dropoffs on that side.
Supposedly ordered from the factory, but could always be a one off, if they wanted it badly enough.
I have never even heard of another one from that era.
The 8 door vans were a factory option from Ford on the early Econoline. That option is featured prominently on the second page of this brochure. https://oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/FMC%20Trucks-Vans/1965_Trucks-Vans/1965_Ford_Truck_Full_Line_Brochure/dirindex.html
Meanwhile sliding doors didn’t appear until well into the second generation’s run in 1972. The driver’s side cargo doors were never offered, at least from the factory, on the second generation vans.
I believe that GM did offer an 8 door configuration on the “Corvan”, but that didn’t continue on with the conventional Chevy Van.
It wasn’t a Corvan.
I think there’s one of those with the mid V8 out there though.
Can’t say exact year. It’s been a long time.
I’ve seen much wilder stuff done when someone had the cash.
4wd raised roof Volvo 245 for instance.
Seems like it was a smaller box type van, but that covers a lot.
I can’t say for certain it wasnt doors.
People ordering it clearly had to have that opening for some logistics reason.
When money is involved, all bets are off.
I used to drive a 5 ton pickup at work sometimes.
Short wheelbase, short bed, big block and beefy 4 speed.
I thought it was junk until I hit the throttle one day and it ran like a stock car!
But they did make a 3-door Suburban starting in ’67. International’s first “crewcab” truck–the Travelette–wasn’t even an actual 4-door. It was a 3-door, made using doors from a Travelall. So, GM could have theoretically done the same thing and started using the 3rd Suburban door to make “crewcab” trucks in ’67.
IH started doing that in ’57, so it’s not like it was some big secret.
I always loved the ridiculousness of the Ford F350 Centurion.
Crew cab or extended cab?
Yes.
Turn radius? What’s that? (Proceeds to make a 16-point turn to get out of a parking spot.)
At least AFAIK there was never a Studebaker Champ crew cab, maybe it wouldn’t look wrong.
Lark sedan back doors…
Here you go, Studebaker Champ Crew
https://imgur.com/a/Ttw4JQN
Magic graphics that looks too good.
Is it live, or is it Memorex?