Hold your horses everyone, let me clarify by saying every type of car and truck could be offered as an EV and still function perfectly well, as good or even better than its fuel-burning counterpart, assuming there’s convenient charging and all that. However, some specific cars – arguably – just don’t or won’t work as EVs.
Case in point, and Torch has made the case: the Mazda Miata.
Could Mazda build a fun electric roadster? For sure. Should it be a Miata? Absolutely not. Such a car could be as real rocket, but no lightweight, and Miatas aren’t meant to be rockets anyway. But they are meant to be lightweight, tossable cars. Jason:
EV powertrains are high-torque, high power, smooth, and fast. Those are great, but they’re not really what I think would be part of Miata DNA? And even with some clever body lightening techniques (will this resulting car look like a trypophobic’s nightmare?) can it match or even beat a current Miata’s weight of 2,300 to 2,500 pounds?
Similarly, I don’t think an electric Corvette would work. GM could certainly build an electric supercar, but don’t make it a Corvette. Yes, yes, I recall the E-Ray, and I can get behind a little e-boosting, but an all-electric Corvette would just feel wrong, to me. As the ultimate expression of high-performance American internal combustion, a Corvette packing a slab of batteries would be a Corvette in name alone, no matter how much quicker it is than the fastest gas-burning variety.
What say you? See you in the comments.
Top graphic image: GM
Never is quite the statement. In that case it’s not even about use case so much as the vehicle losing what makes it special. So throwing out existing vehicles getting an electric power train swap and focusing on models that might swap in the future. I think some cars would be diminished, like the Corvette or Miata, but I do think they could still work.
Trabant?
Hop Rod?
Oh I know, the Lanz Bulldog!
One cylinder and over ten liters!
Diesel! Two stroke!
While technically a tractor they were road legal and road driven.
I don’t know about specific commuter models never working as EVs — I think EVs make perfect family, luxury, even sports cars, and they’re gonna make great busses, utility vehicles, and even long-haul trucks before too long (plenty of other folks in the comments have pointed out why). It’s more the venue in which those vehicles are driven that matters: places where it’s hard to put charging infrastructure, or where environmental factors like comfortable temperature or even sunlight (for solar-powered chargers) are prohibitive for much of the year. Somewhere you need reliable, storeable, portable energy on demand. Somewhere where that fuel may need to also be used to burn shapeshifting alien abominations, should one be encountered.
Therefore I submit, as a proud and happy EV owner-operator, that the Antarctic Snow Cruiser will never work as an EV.
…of course I said that, and then checked the specs. Turns out, the Snow Cruiser was a hybrid! So what do I know.
Only cars that are significantly tied to manuals. Miata is probably up there for that but I think it would do fine as a ev. The wrx style, rally like, wrap around a pole vehicle. Is the only one I can think of that would really loose something. If you just want to go fast it has to be an EV.
It used to be hauling as well but that’s changing. Silverado bev can haul most things a pickup would without being too much of an issue with charging as long as there are pull through charging.
There are a few electric class 8 trucks that can do things decent enough they shouldn’t be problem. Within a few years then will be further optimized to work well enough for most routes as long as the charging infrastructure comes along.
Anything that has to tow or haul a significant mass of cargo.
Do railroads count?
Most have electric motors.
Locomotives are Diesel Electric. They DON’T pull along a large Lithium-Ion Battery, the Diesel engine acts as a generator providing power to the electric motor attached at each wheel.
None.
Cybertruck
On a daily basis, I am struck by the opposite of this premise. As I navigate the city I live in, I think to myself “this would be so much better if it was electrified”.
Garbage trucks that wake me up? Now silent.
Diesel busses that force you to pause your conversation as they scream up a hill? Now silent.
School busses spewing diesel fumes into little lungs? Now clean.
Ferries harming the harbor ecosystem with noise, vibration, and pollutants? Now have a far more neutral impact.
Really, almost any car can “work” as an EV. The reason we don’t think a sports car “works” as an EV is a purely irrational emotional response to involvement. It’s valid, and there should be room for that in society. But it doesn’t mean it “doesn’t work”.
The OG Tesla Roaster worked just fine as a sports car. Lotus could have been making an Electric Elise for the last 20 years.
It would even have lost money, which is essential to the DNA of any modern Lotus.
Of the roadsters that could make a pretty seamless transition to electric, I think the Miata would fair better than most.
I am a firm believer in top down, above 45mph all noise bends the knee to the all mighty wind. And with a footprint that small, the little mazda wouldnt need to gain the 900 pounds most see in an electric transition.
Electric falls apart on two parts. Longterm post dealer support, and auditory pleasure.
Not that combustion is immune to these flaws, but I cant forsee a future of survivor class electric cars when those batteries break down 10 years after warrenty.
For that were going to see a whole era of modern muscle/ jdm hero/ and autobahn storming vehicles not have the presence of their elders.
Your opinion on the Miata, while duly noted, is wrong.
Sorry.
I think we’ve seen the start and end of electric supercars. There’s not enough variety in EV drivetrains to distinguish a Rimac Nevera from a Lucid Air in a way that justifies the price difference and the impractical form factor. The Nevera is faster around a track, but still not as fast as a hybrid Corvette, or the combustion-only Mustang and 911 that occupy 2nd and 3rd place.
There’s no production-based endurance racing series to justify them either, so it can’t be successful as a racing homologation platform.
Show me someone really considering a BEV supercar, and I’ll show you someone who’s actually going to buy a luxury sedan instead.
A V10, however, makes the same noise no matter the driver’s skill level, and it makes that noise the whole time that it’s on.
I’m not really into supercars, including the gasoline ones, but I understand the appeal, and a BEV just can’t really work in that segment.
“There’s no production-based endurance racing series to justify them either…”
Formula E would like to have a word….
“There’s no production-based endurance racing series to justify them either…”
Formula E isn’t production-based.
I don’t think it’s an endurance series, either.
The Mercedes-AMG One, Ferrari F50, and Aston Martin Valkyrie have been based on F1 cars.
Porsche Carrera GT, 918 Spyder and others have been based on LeMans racers
No reason Formula E cars couldn’t spawn production cars too.
Racing-based road cars are the opposite of production-based racing cars. I’m talking about WEC and the like, and my point is that a supercar has to have either a unique experience (an unusual engine configuration or particularly advanced engine tech, such as dual overhead cams in the 60s) that can be felt at all times, or it has to win races on its own merit, chassis and all.
The F50 has an F1 V12, but nobody would have cared if Ferrari never won a championship with that engine, or even if they had developed that engine purely for the road car, a high-revving V12 sells itself. It’s not dependent on the racing correlation to be considered a good supercar, nor does it need it to justify the price tag.
Ford, for on the other hand, got away with charging nearly half a million for the GT with its widely panned Ecoboost soundtrack because it was designed to win at Le Mans, so buyers got to buy into a winning race car. It raced next to its supercar competitors, the 488 GTE, C7.R and 911 RSR, and won. That’s the main reason for a purveyor of exclusivity to desire a car powered by a truck’s second-best engine option. Without the racing victories, it doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
But if we’re going to talk about using open-wheel formula car components in road cars, Formula E drivetrain bits just don’t make a compelling product.
F1 engines are more power-dense, higher-revving and more advanced than almost any road-going engine, the way they drive would be unrecognizable to someone coming out of, say, a BMW M5. It sounds nothing like any road car engine and has a different character at any speed. The chassis tech may have a conceptual similarity to the F1 car, such as pushrod suspension, but isn’t the same item. To a supercar buyer, the racing connection comes down to noise and power delivery.
But a Formula E motor is, essentially, normal. It has a normal torque curve, size, power and weight for a high-performance motor. A Formula E battery is just a small pack with the capacity to charge really fast when paired to a highly-specialized charger. You could use multiple Formula E motors for a huge power output, but you’d never know they came from a race car unless someone told you. Nobody could ever be near a running Ferrari F50 without being aware of its engine.
Mind you, I fully believe that there’s a place for electric sports cars, we can still have a chassis that handles and feels good, I just think EV’s are too homogenously, effortlessly fast to make an EV supercar any more compelling than an equally fast EV luxury car.
Oh, I agree that many EVs are too fast to make an EV “Supercar” or “Hypercar” compelling on that basis alone.
But I do feel that there will still be guys with a Million Dollars burning a hole in their pockets who will feel the need to have something special in their garage – in the same way that guys would buy a Lamborghini Countach when they could get similar performance out of a Mercedes-Benz 6.9 for the same money.
I do think there will be some, though it’ll be a tough sell as long as there are combustion supercars with all the fanfare. I think an EV hypercar actually makes more sense than a supercar, something with a Spyker/Pagani level of interior craftsmanship and customizability can command high prices without a bespoke engine. Look at the Lykan, for example, it’s powered by a Porsche flat-6 and commands prices on par with V16 Bugatti’s.
Unfortunately, EV’s have fewer opportunities to place cool-looking gauges on the dash (no tach, oil pressure, coolant temp or boost/vacuum gauge), so you’d have a 3-binnacle unit at most (battery charge state, speedometer, and maybe battery temperature or charge/discharge rate just for giggles), and there’s no need for a big, billet shifter (though you could still install one just for giggles for neutral/forward/reverse or even for drive mode selection. I know the Charger Daytona uses its paddle shifters to change the regen intensity, which I found both helpful and charming when I test drove one).
I think they’ll have to embrace the more human side of things, like the hand-crafted interiors and hand-beaten aluminum body panels, if they want to justify super/hypercar pricing for EV’s, and that kind of work would almost invariably land you in the millions. That’s really the crux of it, carbon fiber and heavily-bolstered seats can only take you so far upmarket, at a certain point it’s all about how many elderly jewelers dedicated their lives to making your climate control dials.
In my view, ANY car or truck can work as an EV… in the sense that a Miata or Porsche 911 EV will still do the job of being able to be driven in one place to another.
But the real question is what are the BEST and WORST applications of EV tech.
In my view, the best applications for EV tech:
-Luxury cars
-Daily commuters
-City transit buses
-long haul transit buses (eventually)
-School City school buses
-garbage trucks
-Short-haul, medium-haul and (eventually) long haul trucks
-Minivans
-Passenger and work vans
-Pickup trucks
-SUVs
-CUVs… ESPECIALLY CUVs that are essentially taller economy cars.
The worst applications in my view:
-Sports cars, roadsters or any car whose main purpose is fun and having an engaging experience and often doesn’t get driven daily.
-Hypercars that usually get bought by filthy-rich collectors who never drive them. Let’s consider The Sultan of Brunei… if the majority of his cars were suddenly magically repowered with K-car 4 cylinder engines, would he even notice any time soon?
https://www.sentimetal.shop/blogs/news/inside-the-sultan-of-bruneis-incredible-car-collection?srsltid=AfmBOopAQ2PLna_K28iK3PnfvkYYSblgD7FYrYnWuIxqOl4WK6tUh2_U
I’m guessing he would not. Likely 95% or more of his cars haven’t been started for years, let alone driven.
So for cars for these types buyers/hoarders, while it could technically ‘work’, the EV tech is a waste of time and money.
And when it comes to brands like Porsche, in my view, their sedans and SUVs should be electric. But keep the Boxster and 911 as ICE vehicles available with manual transmissions.
For the reason you specify, an EV would be way better for the Sultan. Just charge and go – no worries about fluids and belts.
And overall, just because EVs have a tendency to not be fun doesn’t mean they can’t be. Hyundai has a good start here. A sports car EV could be just as engaging as anything ICE if done well.
Actually no because letting an EV sit for years or decades is a recipe for a dead battery pack. Though some chemistries are more resillient for this than others… such as Lithium Iron Phosphate.
I’d be much less worried about the batteries than all the belts and liquids….and the Sultan could just plug them in to keep the battery charged.
EVs have more complex cooling systems than ICEs, and those cooling systems are all connected with slowly-perishing rubber pipes. Some of those pipes are inside 800V battery packs.
That’s an interesting point. Some of those packs are holding a nominal amout pressure now. Nitrogen is often used. I’ve seen some claims and data that rubber and polymer blends degrade much slower when kept in nitrogen. But they would likey be full of coolant who knows what that would do over time especially if it’s not circuiting.
Many of the coolant loops in the motors have been causing a lot of issues with older and even newish EVs. That seems like it could be a bigger headache then the pack. Especially if it’s low production. The packs will likely to be able to be rebuilt with new better cells and internal thermal system.
Motors who knows if it’s not a common part. You might have to start from scratch. I’m sure there is someone there could rebuild the case, windings, and internals but probably less common and more costly then it would be to have someone drop, crack open , and replace cells and components in a battery pack.
V2H and Smart Chargers would solve this much easier than dealing with petrified hoses and belts, oxidized coolants and fuels, etc….
Wisdom
Id find it hard to see as of now, electric long haul semi trucks.
As hybrids, absolutely but highly doubtful for pure ev.
They’ve got some absolutely massive EV mining vehicles out there, now.
Ultimately cheaper and easier to operate than the ICE versions of them, so the payoff is there for big stuff.
Apparently mining vehicles have been electric for a very long time, although I suspect in the past they were plugged into giant generators instead of batteries.
I say this because there’s a big, old steam shovel on display near one of the bike trails I ride, and the first time I stopped to look at it I was very confused by the lack of an engine. I later found a different display there that said electric took off instead of diesel because it was easier to control.
I think a big part of why I like those trails is that it gives me an excuse to stop and look at all the old mining equipment. 😉
The mining trucks, absolutely work nice as electric, since they have deep regen going down the hills.
Ive heard of electric dozers and excavators as well.
Makes sense in the field their in.
Im just dubious we’ll have fully electric semi tractors for the long haul guys that can go the distance they regularly do on a charge and recharge in a speedy manner. Maybe one day..
I agree it’s definitely a stretch at the moment. On the other hand, modern diesel engines are pretty expensive to operate, and thats only going to get worse. Battery tech is trending cheaper and better every year. At some point the costs are going to converge, probably in about 3-5 years.
China already has the megawatt fast chargers needed to juice up a truck. Time is money, so the charging situation is going to be key, but at some point paying 50% or even 75% the cost of diesel to charge a truck going to win. It’s not if but when.
For sure, as i wouldnt be surprised to see diesel average be around 8$ here fore too long.
That’s what Im hoping for is battery tech to get far cheaper per kw than what it is now, power density going up with it so it could make very long journeys and rebound quickly.
The infrastructure is the biggest problem to solve. Any charging site with more then a few chargers will likey need onsite power generation. The almost certainly means natural gas turbines. A large enough solar array with a grid scale would be too expensive at this point. Unlikely the NRC would let a SMR out in the middle of nowhere at a truck stop.
I can’t see a battery storage system like the byd flash charging working for North American trucks. Plus north American truckers tend drive longer both time and distance wise.
For Europe and many parts of Asia it’s to the point where they can work but also fits their cadiance better.
Very true, as were having a hard enough time keeping the lights on and charging just regular cars when all these data centers keep popping up.
Bout the only way to feed a charge grid for something like a semi on the reg would have to have high kv lines nearby from a power plant.
There are a whole bunch of SMR coming on line in the next few years. The industry was over regulated after TMI. Some of that has been relaxed. Plus natural gas turbines from the biggest western companies are sold out for the next several years.
Between those, the continued solar and grid scale batteries. Data center ban and requiring they bring their own power generation is the only way we can have a stable grid.
BYD flash charging needs a single 500kva line but it also has the batteries from two cars onsite to charge two cars. With how byd provides cells and packs sure it’s an elegant solution. But for the US we are probably a good 3 years maybe more away from that being really possible any any regular scenario. It probably only makes economic sense if diesel is $4.50+ a gallon.
I cannot think if any vehicle which would not be better as an EV – including the Miata, as lightweight cars can remain so with smaller battery packs and smaller motors.
“Oh but the noise” is just a glorification of the inherent inefficiency and unpleasantness of ICE vehicles. No more scaring the horses!
Cruising along at speed in a virtually silent machine – hearing the world around you rather than causing noise pollution and creating a nuisance of oneself, while breathing fresh air rather than creating fouled air, enjoying a cool breeze rather than creating unnecessary waste heat – will be a truly wonderful thing.
I hate when people moans for loss of sound, specially on 4 cylinders and such. Only V8s or more can be justified for sound experience.
Don’t be ridiculous. There are plenty of great sounding engines with less than 8 cylinders, and IMHO, nearly EVERY inline-six sounds better than a V8 anyway. And the Alfa V6 is nearly in a class by itself for making glorious noises. Clarkson called it “like having your soul liked by angels” and as usual, he wasn’t wrong. There are plenty of great sounding fours too – again Alfa’s, but there are no shortage of them.
V and inline 6, are debatable. 4 cylinders… so many few examples that the exception confirms the rule.
Every WRX owner dropped their vape to talk to you.
Everyone but Kyle who is busy installing an aftermarket turbo.
Not even remotely debatable, and most V8s sound like ass anyway.
If I hear one more mustang 5.0 early morning start I might have to find a way to make it not. It’s a horrible sound. I swear they open the factory valved exhaust on start. Half the time you are expecting some doofus and it’s just some old fool in one.
The newest WRX are definitely doing the same thing going on. It doesn’t sound good but sounds better then the stupid 5.0.
I can’t think of current v8 that doesn’t sound horrible. Plunty of old v8 that had real exhust systems sound decent. The current 5.0 doesn’t sound like the old 302 or 289 those can sound ok. I always thought many of the the Chrysler la sound decent. The 360s that were in everything have an ok sound. As did the 5.9 from 25+ years ago.
Right there with you. I find most American V8s just sound terrible.
I do love the sound of a modern Chrysler Hemi though. Like a canon barrage.
I’m not really a fan of the sound of modern boxer fours, be they Subaru or Porsche. Once past the Beetle throb and whistle, I’m out. Though again, major exception for the Alfasud – Italians just do magical things with exhaust notes, seemingly regardless of cylinder count and arrangement. Even the Fiat TwinAir sounds good!
The VW type one exhaust system sound is a mystery. Someone put great effort into that pecular toot. Why is a mystery.
LOL – no doubt about that. And nothing else sounds like it.
I find the hemis can sound good in cars. In trucks not as much especially with hemi tick. Hemi tick in a sporty looking car can kind of sound like a choppy cam. The old lsa had that sort of thoaty choppy cam sound. They just sound decent and right in anything they are in.
I’ve heard a custom exhust in with a boxer in a factory 5 818. That’s the probably the best modern flat 4 I’ve heard. Some of the 4g63 Mitsubishi with a cat back can sound ok. I was always impressed with how the little fiats sound. Less so with the minis.
Oh yeah – I can’t believe I didn’t mention the Fiat 1.4T MultiAir, given I have owned two of them (500 Abarth and 124 Spider Veloce)! Absolutely spectacular – and so much voice out of such little cars. The Spider needed a back box removal, but at that point it sounded just like the Abarth.
Offenhausers sound lovely.
Ferrari 500s and 750s also.
So do many high-strung fours. Cosworths, for example. And Fords as a rule back in the day, though the modern Ecoboost four sure doesn’t.
Only when charging for apartment and condo owners is vastly better.
Chicken vs Egg
I’m not sure about the Miata. The batteries in an EV provide a low center of gravity, which makes the car feel lighter than it is if it’s properly engineered.
anything that is iconic and has good sound. porsche owners will probably kill themselves if the 911 becomes EV only.
Any muscle car. No EV is going to replace that experience.