I just saw Oppenheimer (pretty good, but it’s no Barbie), and naturally the film included the phrase “you can’t put the atomic genie back in the bottle.” Thankfully that genie hasn’t done much (bomb-wise, anyway) since WWII, but the electric-car genie? Well, that guy has been busy. If anyone out there is still thinking or hoping EVs are going to go away–surely no one who visits this site regularly–rest assured EVs are here to stay. But that doesn’t mean everything with a fuel-burning engine will soon be carrying a battery and motor, or that the millions of ICE cars and trucks on the road today will be pried away from those who prefer them, or that every type of vehicle than can be electric-powered will be offered exclusively so if there are sufficient customers who want or need a fuel-burning model.
Here are two categories of possible ICE holdouts that come to mind: overlanders and muscle/sports cars. (Pssst, you can read about the Lexus rig pictured above right here, and Thomas has the 2024 Mustang GT review here). Yes, the effortless torque and precise throttle control of electric power makes EV off-roaders spectacularly capable machines, and there’s plenty of range to keep you rolling. But if you’re also burning up battery to run your campsite night after night, and don’t plan on being anywhere near a form of civilization that includes a charging network, maybe ICE power and a large-capacity fuel tank (and/or extra containers of fuel) is the better recipe for extended adventure in the wild. As for muscle cars and sports cars, you already get it: the sound and feel of an ICE engine is massive part of the car’s personality and the satisfaction of the driving experience (even more so when coupled to a manual gearbox). “But even a basic EV is sooo much faster and more powerful than many of those ‘muscle’ cars!” Well, let’s just let Corvette Man take the mic here:
Now, will there be enough actual demand for even boutique ICE options to be viable in these categories in the future? Who’s to say. Motorcycles might be a different story; as Harley-Davidson has been demonstrating for decades, a great many riders are in it for an “authentic” experience, not the latest tech or a maximalist approach to performance. And no rider who appreciates the experience of riding something like a Yamaha RD350 with its screaming 2-stroke parallel twin or a Honda CBX and its glorious combination of jet-like thrust and butter-smoothness (and F1 exhaust note) will ever put these steeds on Facebook Marketplace because their new battery-bike is quicker to 60mph.
[Editor’s Note: Peter also made this image of a two-stroke Saab 92 and its DKW-inspired engine, and I think that’s also got its own sort of appeal, especially in a hypothetical mostly-EV-era:
…so I’m putting it back in. Maybe David told Peter to lose it? Too bad! – JT]
[Author’s Note: I took it out myself, along with a few sentences about the Saab 92. Because you gotta murder your darlings. -PV]
[Editor’s Note: I’m going to say my answer to this question is off-road vehicles, mostly because I believe the best off-road vehicles have solid axles, and the reality is that EVs are just not going to have them. My off-roader of choice will always have two live axles, meaning it will always be an ICE (or a homemade EV with solid axles). -DT].
So, The Autopian Asks:
What Types Of ICE Vehicles Will Remain Appealing Deep Into The Electric Car Era?
To the comments!
I would argue that, potentially, an EV is easier to refuel in the middle of nowhere than an ICE vehicle, provided you’re prepared with something like solar panels or a small wind turbine. It might take a while, but it will charge. On the other hand, I’m pretty sure I’m not up to distilling gasoline from crude oil, if I could even find some.
This is why the microcar/”bicycle” is getting solar panels. I’m intent on having a vehicle that can remain fueled, even if industrial civilization collapses outright. Worst case scenario regarding energy: I can still pedal it. If there’s no food, then there will be bigger problems than whether or not one has transportation.
Where in the heck do you live and what do you think is gonna happen? ha.
That sounds like a very stressful way to live based on the millionth of a percentile that we are going to be living in a Marvel movie scenario.
Have fun with your toys and all that, but wow…that’s a bold position.
I currently live in the hood.
It’s not that I’m convinced that scenario is bound to happen in my lifetime, it’s more that I want my vehicles to allow a degree of financial self sufficiency that nothing currently on the market offers. I plan to eventually have a place in the country off grid, generating my own electricity, pumping water from a well, growing as much of my own food as possible, all in the interest of minimizing bills/living expenses.
Some places like that come with a gas well.
I’m pretty sure the transportation of food will be one of the bigger problems.
I would gently suggest that you haven’t spent enough time in the middle of nowhere.
Someone mentioned jet skis. I brought up snowmobiles. Ultralights, certainly. Most light aircraft, I would assume. I think it really depends on how much we can ramp up energy density —and if something like a bacitor (from a Phillip K. Dick series, I think: super-quick charging capability combined with huge capacity. Charge them with lightning strikes kinda thing) becomes reality. If energy density could be increased by an order of magnitude, I could conceive of ice vehicles being as rare in 60-70 years as steam vehicles are now. Passionate collectors only.
>there’s a multitude of sci-fi worlds to be explored here: a future where V-SWAT breaks your garage door in to haul away your 911/ XJ/ Harley, etc…
>there’s a multitude of sci-fi worlds to be explored here: a future where V-SWAT breaks your garage door in to haul away your 911/ XJ/ Harley, etc…
No problem. Just leave those gleaming alloy two lanes wide giant air cars at the one-lane bridge stranded by the riverside
Thank you
-I knew someone here would deliver.
unfortunately, the timeline that story is in didn’t include drones—or the multitude of mini satellites currently in orbit
I expected this comment from Rad Barchetta.
While I agree work sleds in the Arctic circle will stay ICE for probably ever, your average consumer snowmobile/ jetski actually makes a ton of sense electrified.
There are definitely hardcore riders of both who tour long distances, (like motorcycles, that’s another ICE holdout) but the vast majority of these machines are simple toys that spend 8 months of the year sitting on a battery tender. When the good weather finally hits, they are taken out for a few hour blast maybe 16 weekends a year, and spend the rest of the week chilling in the garage/dock.
Most inland pleasure boating is easy electrification. Many people replace their cosmetically-challenged 15-20 year old motorboats with only a few hundred hours on the engine. Dropping annual winterization and oil changes on those boats would be a huge win to reduce operating costs.
Would be lovely for everyone on the water to move away from the steady drone of motorboats, and an electric main engine that could drop into “near zero” RPMs would be killer for fishing.
Water creates a lot of drag. When I moonlighted as a mechanic at a marina a decade back, I was amazed at the size of the (often dual) motors. And there’s the inefficiencies of propellers. It’s doable, but energy density is again the limiting factor here. I just searched for ‘battery electric boats’, and, while the article I clicked had some gorgeous craft, the ranges weren’t stellar—and the lowest price was almost $200k.
Then there’s the result of combining energy-dense batteries with water: we saw some spectacular runaway thermal events last year after flooding, no? You have a great point about use-cases, though: if a craft can provide 4-5 hours of reasonable speeds at maybe 50% more initial cost, they could start making serious inroads vs ICE.
I know nothing about snowmobiling, so shouldn’t have even included that—but I definitely concede your point about use vs storage/maintenance there. I was thinking about an old program I saw showing people living off-grid in Alaska, so more about them as tools than recreation-as you said.
Yup, diminishing returns kick in hard with boat performance, the fuel burn on large, high-speed power boats is astronomical. Anything off shore/blue water is going to be ICE for a long time.
Here’s the first electric boat solution that has caught my attention. Going to have to wait for some real-world reviews, but for now I’m cautiously optimistic.
https://www.purewatercraft.com/product/pure-outboard/
The price for the power head and battery are only 2x that of a good 50hp 4stroke, while weighing about the same for the entire system. 2 battery packs puts it in line with a standard outboard and larger integrated gas tank.
The range is still quite low, but there are thousands of boats that never leave small inland lakes. A lot of these don’t have access to a dock-side gas pump. Some owners would no doubt be happy to stop transporting gas in their trunk.
Hopefully engineers would have the presence of mind to design electric boat systems capable of being submerged- My understanding is that recreational craft less than 18ft must remain upright and safe if swamped.
You’re not too far off base with snowmobiles, as there is more of a recreational touring culture compared to small boats, (plus the whole freezing cold situation) but yeah- Like any high-performance toy, lots of people barely use them.
Expensive, but the trend is downward. Thanks for the link.
-And I definitely do appreciate the calm & reasoned exchange we’ve had here. We likely didn’t change any minds—but no one flung monkey poo, either.
And, I hear what you’re saying, and will be looking at the market occasionally now.
The ones with the best surrounding community. This, and only this.
I hope there is enough support from the aftermarket for ICE vehicles even 100 years later down the road, people will want to be able to fix their vehicles until gasoline or equivalent are not available in the market, even if the price per gallon is $10 or $15. Having ICE vehicles running will keep small shops running, even places like AutoZone could be the next Blockbuster if EVs are in such a closed environment for modifications, repairs, availability of parts, etc. No one will want to pay thousands to replace a battery unless automakers offer a program to replace the battery with small payments, of course they are going to push you to get a new vehicle
A lot of EVs are going to be disposables like a washer/dryer from Samsung (The worst appliances ever). There is not going to be any environment benefit from this
Unless you enjoy the sound of an industrial diesel in your off-roading rig, they’re off the list. Anything convertible is a candidate for later attention in my book. There’s just nothing quite like a roaring Ferrari V12 or even a less-than-a-liter Copen motor, and replacing that with spaceship sounds aren’t quite my thing.
Anything agricultural or anything related to living in the vast areas of land in all of North or South America, or the rest of the world for that matter. There is a reason DT didn’t convert that heap of shit in Australia to electric. lol.
This whole notion of EV as a climate savior is total bullshit, and we all know it. It’s been re-hashed here month after month so no reason to list all the reasons. We (and mostly likely our children) will be dead and gone before there are no more ICE vehicles. Most people don’t want or believe in them.
This current version of EV/alternative propulsion is the pet rock or illuminated dance floor (if you must) of this automotive era.
Do not fret, friends. There will be Miati and Mahindras for many decades to come.
Snowmobiles immediately come to mind.
Unless the power-density of batteries gets way better, I don’t see non-recreational use going full BEV
Yes! Well put…finally someone sane who’s not an insane delusional EV fanatic
Batteries will take over the appliance segment of cars you have to drive, to work, the store, the kid’s soccer practice etc., ICE will maintain a foothold in cars you want to drive, sports cars for back roads and off road vehicles for visiting the back of beyond. I also expect medium and heavy trucks to keep engines because of the weight and charge time penalties of large battery packs. We may see a proliferation of plug in hybrids or range extender engines to address lack of chargers 8n some areas or uses
What about a pickup truck? Because an EV still cannot pull a boat 120 miles up 3000 ft that my family has been able to do for over 70 years.
Honestly BEV days are numbered because they simply don’t work. I would bet hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles are the future, but it will be 50 years at least before they can over take ICE.
Hydrogen is the best option only when all other options have failed. We still have a few things to try before then.
“Hydrogen is the best option only when all other options have failed”
If by ‘best’ you mean ‘most expensive with the worst infrastructure’. The best option when all other options have failed is a bicycle or a pedal-powered car.
Box truck delivery vehicles, cheap reliable used anything because an used EV is a 2 year bomb waiting to go off.
I would say the main application would be high strung, performance engines in sports types of cars, although it seems like so many ICE sports cars are already automatic transmission, digitized versions that are far from the analog experience that would be the best fit for engines. I would also think that at some point simple, basic range extender engines would be more prevalent, for anything from offroad to towing and other occasional use, so that smaller battery packs could be used that would only need to cover 80-90% of trips, and not 100%. There’s certainly a blurry line between PHEV and range extended EV, but adding 400-800 lbs of weight to an ICE vehicle to get 20-40 miles of EV range seems like a pretty bad tradeoff, where adding 100-200 lbs of engine weight to a lower range EV to say add an extra 200 miles of range to an existing ~100 miles of EV range seems like a much better tradeoff if it can be done in an extremely simple way.
Along the lines of the range extenders, it’d be nice at some point to convert the old XJ to electric, but there’s no way I would want to have over 100 kWh of batteries just to cover trips that might only happen once a year. If I could use say 30-40 kWh of batteries for ~60-80 miles of range, that would cover local use, and a simple range extender like https://www.mahle-powertrain.com/media/mahle-powertrain/news-&-press/brochures/range-extender/mpt-compact-range-extender-engine-2.pdf could provide the extra range for a couple trips a year.
“add an extra 200 miles of range to an existing ~100 miles of EV range seems like a much better tradeoff if it can be done in an extremely simple way.”
Also heat. It doesn’t take much ICE to make all the heat you (and the batteries) need.
My air-cooled 911 will be appealing until the day I die.
As is entirely fit and proper!
Unless they bury you in it, I suspect it’ll be appealing long after you’ve gone.
It’s the car I’d wanted since I was three, and it makes me just as happy now as it did when I bought it eight years ago 🙂
The sports/muscle car segment is a no-brainer to me. The people who are into these cars like them because they like driving cars rather than being driven by cars. These are people who’ll fly 500 miles to pick up a car they could otherwise get down the street solely because it has a manual transmission. They see driving as a skill that you can work to improve on a daily basis and they get satisfaction out of doing that. While I’d imagine that there may someday be EVs that can give you something of that sense (as well as hybrids), I don’t know that they could ever really replace the feel of getting a great launch off the line and hitting perfect shift points while hearing the (non-recorded) howl of a high performance engine or the satisfaction of something as trivial as a perfect heel-toe downshift while taking an offramp. My prediction is new ICEs will stick around (at least for a long while) for this niche market. I suppose the problem will come when they get so niche as to be priced out of any normal human being’s reach. This will mean that used versions will be kept running for many years to come.
Or maybe in 30 years, we have complete automation of all driving and it becomes illegal for a human to pilot a car at all. Who knows?
My electric Triumph GT6 conversion retained its manual transmission. It’s launch is far too violent for its tires to hook up, with all of 120-ish horsepower and about the same lb-ft of torque, but the best possible straight-line acceleration can only be obtained paying attention to the shift points. There’s no ABS, no power-steering(or power anything), no traction control, or any of that crap. Driving it like this is an improvement over the ICE that came out of it, and I’m glad I built it. I wish electric cars like it existed on the modern market.
“ I wish electric cars like it existed on the modern market.”
Me too, that sounds like my idea of fun.
Hell, I love the feeling of a perfect shift in my TDI Sportwagen or my 60hp air-cooled Beetle. For me driving is all about tactile feel and like you said, constant improvement of skill. It’s something I enjoy doing, even if it’s just going out to get groceries (I’m weird, I know). I’ve been like that since I was a teenager. I’m in my 30s now and it hasn’t changed. I think EVs are great for the majority of the driving public, but there’s always going to be people like us who just enjoy the feel and sensations of driving.
I think the answer really depends on the market demographic. For the majority of people, a car is an appliance. An appliance which needs to get them from one place to another as reliably, unobtrusively, and inexpensively as possible. EVs are perfect for the majority of those folks.
Cranky old fucks like me (I’m 45, so not THAT old, but still..) are likely not going to embrace the EV revolution – unless we’re talking about daily drivers/commuter cars. In my opinion, that’s a perfect use case, specifically if you own a house where you can plug in at night.
I’ve driven EVs (mostly Teslas), and they’re fine, but definitely not engaging or interesting. Stomping the go-pedal in a dual motor long range Model 3 is fun, but it’s a party trick at best. Like, yeah, cool, it goes fast, but then what? It doesn’t handle great, it’s ugly, and in my neck of the woods (PNW), they’re as ubiquitous as Priuses used to be.
With all that being said, I think (and hope) that powerful things with three pedals are going to have some kind of appeal for a long time. I don’t care about instantaneous torque, or low center of gravity, or any of the other stuff that EV lovers tout as an advantage over ICE – I want a car that has a soul/personality that I can actually engage with. For me, that means three pedals, combustion noises, and an attractive design (subjective, I know). Some EVs look ok, but they’ll never be able to deliver on the other two requirements.
I also agree that off roaders and overlanders are in general going to be loathe to accept EVs, at least in any significant numbers. If you want to go play off road for an afternoon, then a Rivian is just fine, but if you’re taking a trek across the Utah desert, you’re gonna have a bad time.
This is why we’ll be keeping both of our 4Runners, as well as the G87 M2 for as long as possible. I might add an EV to the fleet, but it’s going to be an addition, not a replacement for anything.
EVs are like supercars in that if you cannot afford them when new you cannot afford them when used. Once the warranty is up replacement batteries are almost as expensive as a new car. And new EVs are and will continue to be expensive to keep all the union bros employed even though they arent needed. The money for no show jobs has to come from someone.
That’s just wrong. There are several companies who refurbish batteries. My friend has a Prius and got a new battery pack installed for $1800.
I love ICE vehicles. But to pretend that the EV market won’t eventually have breakthroughs to (mostly) eliminate range anxiety and charging issues is to ignore that a new Mustang 5.0 makes 500hp vs. 200 just 37 years ago.
Yeah, but if Munro’s teardown of the Tesla pack with the pink stuff is anything to go by and it seems companies are just following Tesla. I’m not so sure. I think we are entering the era of disposable cars.
“ Once the warranty is up replacement batteries are almost as expensive as a new car. “
That’s only true of the Nissan Leaf and you only look for service from their useless dealers.
In practice, that’s a lie. A new Model S is over $100K. The battery pack (which can last 200,000 miles or more) replacement cost from Tesla is $20K. And there are independent BEV specialists that service them for way less.
And those same independent BEV specialists will also fix you up with a new pack for a Leaf for way less than a new one as well such as this place:
https://www.greentecauto.com/?make=533&model=1071&year_id=1073&post_type=product&action=vpf-search
And there is a growing number of places that do this type of work
https://nissanleafbatteryreplacement.com/
As someone who daily’d an old British car for way too long I have a strong appreciation for a soulless appliance.
IMO soul/personality is way overrated. I need to get where I’m going, and no drama along the way.
“Like, yeah, cool, it goes fast, but then what?.”
Then you can do it again… just like people did with muscle cars in the past
” It doesn’t handle great,”
That’s a lie unless you’re comparing it to a race-prepped Lotus Elise.
” it’s ugly, “
You’re entitled to your WRONG opinion.
“and in my neck of the woods (PNW), they’re as ubiquitous as Priuses used to be.”
That’s because they are great cars. I know, I’ve driven them too. In terms of all-around performance, they run circles around most other sporty cars from the present and the past.
1). Pretty much anything with 8 or more cylinders. The aural experience just can’t be replicated. There is absolutely nothing that can replace a V8 at wide open throttle. I personally haven’t experienced anything with more cylinders than that but I’m know it’s similarly amazing based on what I’ve experienced vicariously and I encourage anyone with 10+ cylinder vehicles to hand me their keys as soon as possible so I can fully assess.
2). That weird shit. Even if literally everyone but this site loses interest in it there will still be a plethora of Autopians out there looking to buy it…
3). I agree with off-roaders/overland vehicles. BEVs are just not as capable on that front and I don’t think they ever will be unless we find ways to charge in the wilderness, desert, etc.
Straight sixes are the best. If I could keep just one types of ICE, it’d be a revy straight six.
I do like the B58
“I encourage anyone with 10+ cylinder vehicles to hand me their keys as soon as possible so I can fully assess.“
Be careful, formerly awesome engines have a tendency to feel mediocre after such an assessment.
“I don’t think they ever will be unless we find ways to charge in the wilderness, desert, etc”
They’re called solar panels and wind turbines. They’re a lot easier to set up in the middle of nowhere than a gas station.
considering the Oil industry investments in bio diesel, I for see the few diesel off roaders and the various diesel pickups will be the last hold outs. probably the heavier duty stuff because they are so adversely affected by the towing side of things.
Agree. Any truck that needs to tow or haul heavy stuff over long distances will be a challenge to electrify.
Depends on whether overhead lines are on the table.
“Maybe David told Peter to lose [the two-stroke SAAB]?”
No! Such a betrayal! David, say it isn’t so! Just when I was, as far as anyone knows, about to consider upgrading my membership level, too!
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52643250146_92f0ca5448_c.jpg
It’s not true. I WOULD NEVER do that! In fact, here’s a quote from our slack channel:
Well, that is a relief. I admit I wasn’t looking forward to peeling off that bumper sticker in the hot sun.
For us second-class citizen apartment dwellers: anything we can get our hands on. I know EVs are sexy, and for those individuals that live the American dream and have their own homes they can charge at, EVs are a no-brainer. But the time it takes to charge at a charging station would be prohibitively costly for us, especially those that are lower income and time is a precious resource that could be used to work and make money. And there is no way on earth the companies that own apartment communities are going to shell out the capital required to add charging stations, not to mention the chaos it would create between the renters fighting over them. Nope, unless a) charging becomes much faster and reliable, or b) there is a solution to the fixed location (not mobile) charging station, I will be seeking any and all ICE vehicles for as long as I can.
This, east coast old city old building dweller here. Recently read article concerning a local who has a cord lead out his (fathers) building to the street where he and his neighbors actively save the spots. As a needer of any parking spot available this is egregious and a way to start some s%$t where you live. Short sighted and potentially dangerous. ICE for those of us in rental apartments indefinitely.
“As a needer of any parking spot available this is egregious and a way to start some s%$t where you live. Short sighted and potentially dangerous. ICE for those of us in rental apartments indefinitely.”
Sure as long as that ICE isn’t a single digit MPG Canyonero.
Aircooled 911s. So mechanical. Much noise. Very wow.
If I ever had the space to keep a bunch of cars, a 911 SC would be on the bucket list. Probably the most durable car Porsche has ever built, and they are still somewhat attainable to the non-rich.
If you want a deal look into the mid year cars, 74-77, right before the SC.
Road trip and towing vehicles. If not for the high purchase cost I’d have been in a BEV already for my daily driver but you’ll pry my Suburban from my cold, dead hands. There’s just no way a BEV is ready to replace it for what I do. I would love to have a plug-in hybrid version of my Suburban, though. That would be perfect.
Beyond that there will also be a following for any kind of car where the engine provides a significant portion of the sensory experience, i.e. muscle cars, sports cars, etc.
According to critical acclaim and also prophetic movie Waterworld, it’s the jet ski. So start investing now by buying every Sea-do that pops up on Facebook market place. Then when the water comes to swallow this place whole, you can form your own gang to terrorize Jesus allegory-eqse Kevin Costner.
Honestly, “cockroach economy cars.”
Some people will always need cheap, reliable, efficient transportation. The market for cheap Corollas, Civics, and Duratec and Ecotec 4-cylinders isn’t going away for decades. Simply because they’re inexpensive second hand, run cheaply enough, have ubiquitous parts availability, everyone knows how to work on them, and they’ll get you about reliably.
Someone in the market for a sub-$5K economy car won’t ever care about EVs when used ones are a multiple of the price, and have the specter of long-term battery replacement or pack rebuilding — at least with the current state of battery tech. Those folks will be driving Corollas for a looooong time coming, and I can’t blame them.
I bet unaffordable/unobtainable gasoline would kill this market as it exists today. Just a camel sneeze away. However, if there is ever an emphasis on mass reduction, feature reduction, and aerodynamic drag reduction, we could have 5-seater midsized non-hybrid sedans getting 60+ mpg highway with today’s tech. It’s not at all rocket science.
Sub-$5k new economy cars exist in the foreign car market, but modern regulations generally keep them out of 1st world countries. If such a thing existed in the US with a 5-year, 50,000+ mile warranty, I think quite a few would sell. There is an overwhelmingly large demographic of cash-strapped people whose current alternative is to walk or take the bus when their clunker breaks down and they don’t have $X,XXX to repair it costing more than it is otherwise worth.
When I talk about sub-$5K I’m talking about used, not new.
So pre-pandemic (before used prices spiked) what would be a 9th generation Corolla.
As someone who still sees a TON of 1990s Camrys around where he lives, trust me when I say you’ll still be seeing Corollas from our current era around in 2050.
Poorer folks will pay through the nose for something if it’s in small bites and they need it to make it through the week. It’ll just make it harder for them to afford something else. I certainly remember the mental calculations for “how much can I afford to put in the tank to get to work, and still make rent.”
Yup yup yup.
I’ve never spent more than $6,000 on a vehicle in my life.
I also prefer to pay in cash and do all my own maintenance and repairs.
I’ll be an ICE man till I die due to both economic reasons and my proletariat upbringing.
EVs have the potential to be far more economical to operate in the long run, even factoring in battery replacement costs. LiFePO4 batteries are the way to go, coupled with a vehicle designed to minimize mass and drag.
There are hobbyist conversions out there that only need 100-150 Wh/mile, which compares favorably to any EV on the market today, but these tend to be small classic cars 50+ years old with lower mass and CdA than anything you can buy new today. Aptera would be the exception to this rule, once it is sold at least, as that actually needs less than 100 Wh/mile.
Consider that there’s no tune-ups needed, no spark plugs, no belts, no seals/gaskets, no pistons, no crankshaft, no alternator… The electric motors available have either 1 or 0 moving parts. The battery is the weakest link in a well-designed system, and even that can outlast an ICE if it is carefully chosen and configured.
Unfortunately, the current crop of new EVs for the most part are not built to save the user money. The exception will be used in expensive ones in good shape with a battery that wasn’t abused. Used Leafs and Bolts are probably a good buy(possibly the cheapest cars you could operate on a per mile basis, in the long run), as are used Model 3s. I’d stay far, far away from the pickup trucks and SUVs with massive 100+ kWh batteries as well as any of the “luxury” imports, unless you’re asking to be financially raped.
Yeah but… I can’t pick any of those up for a wad of hundreds fix em up and maintain them easily myself.
I make a better plumber than an electrician.
I’m interested to see what the 4th-owner shitbox EV market will be like in, say, 10 years myself. One downside I see is that the bottom-of-the-market cars I was getting 20-odd years ago were lightweight to go with their lack of power: I had a blast throwing 60-70hp cars at corners on their 7”(185/75/13, iirc) wide tires because they only weighed 2000-2500lbs. I just checked: a Nissan Leaf weighs from 3500 to 3900lbs!
Yeah, that’ll get me to the grocery store & other errands —but I don’t see hooning it.
*sigh*
I’ve noticed these discussions tend to mention BEVs and ICEVs while excluding hybrids. A small dino-powered engine in conjunction with electric motors would bridge the gap between all-ICE and no-ICE models. Weren’t people in hurricane-stricken areas using their Priuses as generators? There’s your camping solution. 🙂 (Not the Prius itself, of course, but a similar configuration in a 4wd chassis)
Beyond that, I think any vehicle that includes the ICE as part of its charm and/or experience will continue to drive ICE appeal. A Mopar with a 440, for example, would lose much of its nature in an electric conversion. Whirring along with an electric motor is IMO not a visceral experience.
I include motorcycles in the charm category as well: ICE for fun, electric for commuting and practical tasks.
the 4XE Jeep is appealing for many. Plug it in get to work each day on electricity, and then go offroad using the full tank of gas. I just wish the gas motor was the tried and true simple NA 3.6 V6 versus the turbo 4, also please make the manual work with the hybrid drivetrain.
Yep. And I have to make myself take an ICE bike when the electric is charged and ready. The engine/clutch/transmission is a visceral, sensory experience, but often I just want to hear the birds and smell the creek below the bridge.
RWD V8 musclecars.
That is, if anyone is still making them.
I think Stellantis should have sucked it up and made a V8 musclecar fitting for the times. They could have shunned the retrograde styling and given us a V8 streamliner with an industry leading drag coefficient, reduced mass, and reduced frontal area, in order to maximize fuel economy.
A car with half the road loading, will generally consume close to half the fuel, at a given speed. This applies to big engines as well as small ones, once you’ve accounted for pumping and friction losses. 40+ mpg at 70 mph is theoretically possible, so a streamliner variant with a V8 could sip when you want it to, and turn that fuel into kinetic energy very rapidly when you want to put your foot down, instead of wasting all of this fuel pushing a brick through the air.
But alas, it’s looking like this sort of vehicle will never be made. Which is a shame, considering the benefits to top speed and straight-line acceleration at triple-digit speeds this sort of change would bring with it.
392 with manual trans average around 24 mpg at 70 mph. I can say that from experience. Had they made these with say a couple front wheel hub motors to aid launch traction and also improve Fuel economy, that might have been nice, but these things were already pretty expensive even a decade ago.
Think of what happens to that 24 mpg with that 392ci V8 when you’ve cut the road loading by half. That means you need half as much horsepower to overcome rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag as you did before, using half the horsepower. This is mostly why the Prius gets the economy it does.
If you put the Prius’ highly efficient and relatively power-starved drive system into a heavy brick of a musclecar after removing that wonderful V8, I think that you’d struggle to crack 35 mpg, while the Prius gets over 50 mpg.
Conversely, what happens to the musclecar if it keeps the V8 it has, but now has a new platform that complete has the Prius’ mass and 2/3 the Prius’ aero drag? That is an experiment I wish I had the chance to perform, because I think it would surprise a lot of people regarding what is possible.
A C5 Corvette, bone stock, can get 30 mpg highway and with tuning for lean burn, crack 40 mpg, and it had a CdA roughly equivalent to a Prius.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNIZ25eBMco
Anything old that’s simple enough for home wrenching. There’s just a satisfaction in tinkering, making something mechanical come to life (/stay alive). I’m sure some EVs will have something approaching that but probably not to the same extent.
EVs need to become something approaching this, at minimum, in order for their reduced environmental impact to be realized. I designed/built two vehicles to this effect from scratch, converted my ICE car, am working on a 3rd DIY EV, and have worked on a number of others’ DIY ICE conversions. I love EVs. But I cannot emphasize how much I loathe the EVs coming from the major manufacturers. They suck, from a reparability standpoint.
Anything that tows. Towing range is going to be one of the greatest EV challenges to conquer.
That’s a great answer!
Yup, anything that tows. But the thing is, most people only tow rarely, and the rest of the time they have a truck they insist they need(and may) but otherwise it’s a big inefficient waste.
My brilliant idea to save the Earth is the government should just require all pickups and SUV’s over a certain size/weight to be plug in hybrids(say 20kWh pack?). They are trucks, so they have space for the equipment, and the electric motor can provide the extra torque needed on acceleration with trailers and use regen very well.
When not towing (99% of the time) the hybrid makes the truck much more efficient.
Truck buyers seem to have no limits on cost, so the added expense shouldn’t be much of an issue, and hybrid drive train savings should easily recoup the costs. If they were the only option, no one would complain after the first few years anyway.
Yes, please. Our big girl stays parked except for heavy stuff, and the only reason we’d replace her would be for a hybrid. A V6 4xe 3/4T or 1T truck with 120V in the bed from the hybrid battery would be perfect for horsey folks, tradespeople and taking the camper up to the deer camp, and would return good enough mileage most of the time to use as a daily driver.
Seems like hybrid would pair especially nicely with diesel, since you can let the electrics handle the quick transient loads and let the engine catch up instead of blowing soot.
I thought blowing soot was the whole point.
I imagine the pre AFM/DFM LS motor GM vehicles will stick around because of this and the simplicity of repair when they do have an issue. I have actually consider looking into the 2021/2022 Gm trucks that had the DFM removed because of the lack of control modules. I feel like even though they were built during the IDGAF pandemic times, the motor should at least survive past 80K miles.
It won’t just be pre AFM LS motors. All the parts to remove AFM from LS/LT motors are pretty ubiquitous, as is the tuning required to remove them. So converting AFM stuff to non AFM is common and easy, so that won’t interfere with longevity of the chevy v8
You mean ‘the unsolvable problem.’ And not just towing, but payload.
The Jeep GC 4xe ‘works’ (a whole 1MPG highway! Hooray!) because it chucks any pretense at battery out the window. +1,000lbs to get you 25 miles off a 400V pack. That’s how it manages to not sacrifice payload (-200lbs to 1,050lbs) or towing (just -100lbs.) And that 1,000lbs increase is actually really low comparatively. The F150 Lightning tows 1,000lbs less and skyrocketed from 4,800lbs to nearly 7,000lbs. Yep. The $94,000 Platinum weighs over 6,900lbs. And if you tow 5,000lbs with it, you lose 60% of your range.
Batteries and related cabling are really fucking heavy. Which means you need more power to go the same distance. Which as I keep pointing out, creates a feedback loop. You want to carry more stuff? You now have more weight. Which necessitates more batteries. Which adds more weight, reducing the usefulness of those batteries. Which means you need more batteries again, which adds more weight, which reduces all the batteries more, and so on.
So unless somebody’s going to develop, standardize, ratify, and pay to build a pantograph system to cover every road? Gas and diesel long-hauls aren’t going anywhere.
“So unless somebody’s going to develop, standardize, ratify, and pay to build a pantograph system to cover every road? Gas and diesel long-hauls aren’t going anywhere.”
So convert them to run on natural gas. That’s a lot easier than batteries or hydrogen.
And we’ve covered this before. One, it’s not easier than H2. It’s just as hard unless you’re extremely stupid and want extremely explosive trucks. Seriously, are people so stupid as to not understand the “C” stands for “Compressed”? And ‘compressed’ is 3600psi+. Nevermind that if you were trying to fill CNG in Texas this week, you couldn’t get more than 60% into your tank unless you want to wait 6 hours.
Two, only an idiot wants more CNG, because CNG is not even remotely clean. CNG releases a shitload of methane, which is just about the most potent greenhouse gas. 10 times as much methane as gasoline or diesel. (A., Koehl, W., Benson, J., Burns, V. et al., “Comparison of CNG and Gasoline Vehicle Exhaust Emissions: Mass and Composition – The Auto/Oil Air Quality Improvement Research Program,” SAE Technical Paper 952507, 1995, https://doi.org/10.4271/952507.)
Three, it’s about as useful as the cornpiss is. Miles per BTU is 20% lower, meaning, a 20% reduction in gas mileage. Just like cornpiss. “Oh! We had 10% less emissions!” Which was completely invalidated by having to burn 20% more fuel.
Yeah, you win, this is the best answer until the swappable battery exists.