I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that electric cars are absolute torque monsters, and even humble sedans offered as practical dailies can be capable of smooshing you into the seatback as forcefully as ostensibly hot-performing fuel-burning machines.
Consider the Tesla Model 3, which in RWD trim will (according to Tesla) sprint to 60mph in 4.6 seconds, enough to smoke many V8-powered muscle machines. If you opt for the Performance model, that figure drops to just 2.9 seconds – a match for the base-model Corvette Stingray, which will drain an additional $21,000 from your bank account versus the seemingly humble Tesla sedan.
… Which can only make one wonder what the future holds for sports cars, which for the purposes of this Autopian Asks we can expand to include musclecars and super/hypercars. Long gone are the days when a certain level of performance was only attainable by purchasing a sporting machine. Whether you were looking for prodigious power, lithe handling, or – the eternal dream – both, there was no way to truly scratch that itch with anything other than a sports car.
No more. One needn’t look far to see sports-oriented electric sedans and SUVs (and even ICE and hybrid models) that belie their heft and height with genuinely impressive performance numbers, whether the Gs are aligned with your buttcrack or of the lateral variety. How then will sports cars sports car?
It may be that sports cars merely become an aesthetic. If it looks like a sports car, then it’s a sportscar, never mind how quick or fast or nimble it is. Despite what the numbers might say, surely squirting around with instant electric torque in a low-slung two-seater will feel more fun and sporty than achieving the same performance numbers in a staid sedan, and that may well be sports car enough.
Or, will tomorrow’s electric sports cars be expected to do more than everyday machines can? And might they do more by offering less – as in less range. Setting aside whether or not Tesla actually ever makes the thing, does the new Roadster really need 600+ miles of range? That’s a lot of battery weight to lug around, no matter what advances we see in energy density in the next couple of years. How much better would it be with 200 miles of range? Will sports car buyers be satisfied with less range, as sports cars aren’t big milers for most? Will electric sports cars measure their athleticism by posting road-holding abilities of the drive-it-upside-down variety, with the Automan-like handling such high grip allows? We’ll see.
Until the future arrives, you tell us: What Will Constitute A ‘Sportscar’ In An All-Electric Future?
Top graphic image: 1969 GM Astro III Concept via GM
I have high hopes for Slate. That truck of theirs could be an excellent basis for a relatively sporty, low cost, two seat RWD ride.
When I see the blistering acceleration of electric commuter cars, I always wonder how much, if any, range is lost to that ability.
Anyway, I think in the near-term EV future, sportscar is really just a body style. It’s a small coupe or convertible. They will stay heavy but very quick. Technology will compensate for weight, but the handling associated with sportscars is gone until the weight of batteries comes down.
2,500 pounds or less.
Old gas-powered sports cars are the only real option until they figure out how to make lighter batteries.
Light weight, low polar moment of inertia, low center of gravity, good driver feedback.
All of those point to a very low drag, small-frontal-area car with only enough battery capacity for 200-270 miles of range.
I’ve got two different designs for it, one a tandem two seater, one an open car only 27″ high. Let me know if you want drawings.
Drawings! I’m very curious.
Yes please.
Ok. Write to David and Jason and ask them to publish them – they’re literally drawings on paper, so they’d be receiving photos.
Sports cars aside, can we please get over the idea that EV = Tesla?
We’ve all figured out that it’s an over-promising, under-delivering hype company run by a ketamine-slamming fascist.
There are an incredible number of better and more interesting EVs to talk about, no need to give more oxygen to the swasticars.
They also make the only under-4000-lb RWD electric sports sedan you can buy now (Model 3 base model). It’s why I have one. I’d enjoy trading up to a Taycan or Air but am still waiting for the depreciation fairy to wave her magic wand.
Sports cars were NEVER about high power. They have historically been small 2dr, RWD cars (often convertibles) with an emphasis on nimble handling and driver engagement. Think Miata, old British roadsters, Boxster, early 911s, Lotus Elise etc. None of those were kings of the drag strip. This definition could still apply to an EV.
Your comment reminds me of RBW, a company that buys brand new MGB bodies and puts electric drivetrains in them. I bet they are fun, but they also cost $135000, because it’s hand built at low volume. Also, part of the reason I get my kicks in a car and not a motorcycle, is because I like having modern safety gear. But, if someone mass-produced a modern and homologated version for $40k, would anyone here buy one?
https://rbwevcars.com/rbw-roadster/
I think one of the ideas would be that how many laps can you turn at top speed before changing out the battery packs. As hot swapping batteries will be the big next thing as who wants to wait an hour between laps.
Also on this question what will be the next big change for tracks as more cars are electric that participate on track days.
Does the trunk only have enough space for a sports bag and perhaps a racket or bat of some sort? Then it’s a sports car
An original Tesla Roadster would work for me as an EV sports car. Or the 2009 Dodge EV concept based on the Lotus Europa.
It needs steering feel and engaging handling (adjustable from understeer to oversteer based on driver inputs). I’d like it to weigh no more than a GT86, and be that sort of size or smaller.
I drove a Tesla Model 3 Performance, and it was one of the least engaging driving experiences of my life. Speed isn’t important.
Newer battery tech will reduce weight. That will help.
A power retractable hard top (Miata NC style), low center of gravity, and most importantly, independent motors for each rear wheel for torque steering.
Offering it with a smallish battery and a rotary range extender. E rev style with all electric drive and they can have all my money!
The Mazda Iconic shows the way. I’d just like to see a drop top version.
https://hagerty-media-prod.imgix.net/2024/01/dsc_7641_l.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&ixlib=php-3.3.0
The rotary needs to drive the wheels directly. Not interested in an EV “sports car.”
Disagree. EVs have Full toque at zero rpm. Rotaries make great generator drivers if running at single high rpm but they don’t really do much a low rpm, so not best for direct drive of wheels .
The issue with giving the Tesla Roadster or any other EV sports car a lower range of 200 or so, is how fast that drops when you’re pushing it. When I drive my car conservatively, I have gotten over 30mpg on a couple tanks. When I’m having fun? 18. If your EV has a 200 mile range and you go out to have fun and then can only go 100 and before having to wait for half an hour for it to charge to get another 100, that’s not going to work well.
If it is capable of 400 when driven in a sane fashion, then you can still get out to the canyons, blast around and get home without needing to stop for a charge in the middle.
Until charging times rival getting gas, that will be a massively important aspect to consider. And if I want to spend all day driving the tail of the dragon or similar, there are gas stations on both sides. Are there charging stations? If not then the limited range would be even worse because I would have to save 40 miles of the already limited range to get to the charger.
I can tell you one that I want. Look up the first gen “Wuling Mini EV.” It’s a $5000 car in China that kinda looks like a tiny ‘80s Civic EF hatchback.
It’s quick off the line around town and very light. It has potential, but the reviews say it has vague steering and ponderous handling. I want someone to develop a stiffer subframe, a manual steering rack, double wishbone suspension, and tune it really well. With that platform, I bet it would be hilariously fun to drive.
https://www.wired.com/story/review-wuling-hongguang-mini-ev/
If this car looks like an ’80s Civic FE to you, I must implore you to get to your optometrist as quickly as possible.
Seriously.
I probably need my eyes and brain checked, but these are the two cars I was comparing:
Wuling Mini EV (gen 1)
Civic EF Hatch
The gen 2 Mini EV became a jellybean. And the gen 1 is kinda ugly too, but it only weighs 1500 lbs (and has a very small battery), and they are *everywhere* in China. I think it’d be a cool project to make one that has steering feel and good handling for 20-30mph very tight and twisty back roads.
I would say the biggest thing preventing a (Bolt, Leaf, Niro, Model 3) from being a sports car is the lack of steering feel. Until you’re turning at about 0.8 or 0.9 g’s, there’s no feedback.
If one of these EVs could do the following, I would be really happy!
1. load up more when I’m turning more sharply
2. give me some feeling of the road surface and its imperfections
3. get light when the front wheels start to lose traction in a corner
I’ve tracked my Bolt EV a lot, and it has enough power for me. Steering feel is the biggest missing ingredient for me. I’d also like…
– more brake feedback and feel
– more feedback through the seat of the car
– lower seating position (I somewhat solved it by mounting my racing seat low in the Bolt; but then the dashboard was too high, so I raised the seat back up)
I am planning to get nerdy with some cad drawing, a CNC machine, a suspension design textbook… and do a major reboot of my Bolt’s suspension.
One thing that remains to be seen is whether a 3600lb Bolt is simply too heavy to have good steering feel.
tl;dr: Besides an electric Miata / sports car, can anyone think of cars that would be better if they use a T-shaped battery pack?
I totally love this thread. I thought I was the only person on the planet who spends a lot of free time thinking about electric Miatas. I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but it’s amazing that so many people are curious about it.
One thing mentioned by a couple of other commenters is that, instead of a skateboard, a T-shaped battery pack (center tunnel of batteries, and batteries behind the seats) would allow a lower seating position and a more engaging driving experience.
Question for everyone: designing a new chassis is expensive, and the stamping equipment can cost a lot. If an automaker developed a new chassis with a T-shaped battery, can you think of any ideas for what other products (besides electric Miatas) could use that chassis?
Crazy ideas are great… feel free to channel your inner Torchinsky for this one!
The first gen Chevy Volt had a T battery, that’s why they couldn’t make it a 5 passenger. If sedans are allowed to be 4 seaters then a T battery makes sense there just as well.
The only issue I see with that is that then the battery is not as low, and one of the biggest things allowing heavy EVs to handle like much smaller cars is the incredibly low CoG afforded by a skateboard. If you’re instead running the battery up a foot higher through the center console and behind the seats, I think that extra weight will become noticeable very quickly. I’m still in for it, but concerned.
The Polestar 2 has a T-shaped battery pack, although I think it still keeps some cells under the front seat area.
I think first we need to look at the past of sports cars and how context-dependent their definition is: In the past, an American family car, like a Ford Fairlane, could out-accelerate an European sports car like an MGB, while an European family car such as a BMW 2002 could out-corner the likes of a Corvette. It’s really never been about a specific performance metric, unless you ask the sort of pedant who insists that an MGB or C2 Corvette isn’t a “real” sports car because it isn’t (insert adjective) enough.
EV’s are re-defining the metrics: They consistently out-accelerate and out-turn their ICE counterparts, with some caveats on the cornering point. Any EV can turn well as a result of the low center of gravity. The weight, however, leads to accelerated wear of components like brakes and tires, and kills certain types of engagement due to the amount of assistance required to move such heavy bodies (lots of power assistance to the steering and brakes hurts feedback).
Of course, we already have some electric supercars and hypercars, and while they set up a precedent for fast EV’s, I don’t think they’re the blueprint for sports cars to come. Huge power and blistering acceleration isn’t a formula that scales down to an affordable, mass-produced product without severe quality compromises, and we’ve already seen that acceleration from sedans and even SUV’s.
The definitive quality of a sports car can’t be price-dependent. An MX-5 is as much a sports car as a Corvette, which is as much a sports car as a Lotus Emira. The “sports” element is subjective, and based on driver engagement. At last, onto the point:
I think the future of sports cars is chassis-centric. When drivetrains are more or less off-the-shelf, we’ll have to focus on things like lightweight construction, clever packaging, rewarding controls feedback and unique limit handling to make a vehicle special.
This means smaller cars with batteries strategically located to induce particular handling behaviors. In the absence of the manual transmission, RWD will be viewed as the “driving purity” option. I don’t think skateboard-platform sports cars will be the norm, because buyers in that segment really want a low roof-line, and you can’t get that with the driver sitting on the battery. A skateboard-platform sports car will garner a reaction similar to history’s cheapest parts-bin-based, platform-shared sports cars: most buyers would rather have the hatch or saloon it’s based on.
I also suspect we’ll see the pinnacle of a good thing we’ve been getting since the late 2000’s: Whereas all vehicles were previously tuned for understeer as a safety feature, advanced electronic stability control systems allowed manufacturers to make a return to form with neutral-handling and even oversteer-prone chassis like the Focus ST and Elantra N, relying on the software to keep the less-skilled drivers safe. The capabilities of electric motors in terms of modulation and potential for torque-vectoring only elevates this, and could allow drivers to have a very exciting, even vintage experience in certain drive modes.
With electric brakes, the car can move brake bias rearward in something that’ll certainly get a silly name like “Group B mode”, giving the driver access to even more racecar-like behavior.
It’ll take a while for EV sports cars to be picked up as a market priority, even longer for them to get their own platforms, and somewhere along that time, battery tech needs to get to the point where a sub-3000lb vehicle with 200 miles of Winter range doesn’t require an unobtanium space-frame to be feasible.
I think that my definition a sports car always tends towards impractical engaging, interesting, and fun side of every compromise. Pretty to look at helps too.
The pain in the ass to charge aspect of EV‘s already put them in sports car territory.
A real sports car had all those gauges and to properly drive a real sports car you had to pay attention to them. Do I have enough oil pressure? What’s the temperature like? Am I out of gas? Am I on fire? Is the battery going dead? Is it going to explode? Are you sure I’m not on fire? The brakes seem to work maybe it’s the clutch I smell? You know, engaging.
An EV sports car needs to have lousy luggage space. Traditional sports cars have interesting ways to make you uncomfortable. I am particularly fond of making one foot blisteringly hot while keeping the rest of you numbingly cold. Mysterious vibrations but only sometimes, for example under full power while turning left. Perhaps something can be done on that front.
Maybe lots of switches and gauges and the opportunity do something really stupid with the battery. That scene in THX 1138 where Robert Duvall overdoes it in that electric Lola T 70 and has to wait for a bunch of bar graphs to go back into the safety zone could work.
Leaks. Real sports cars leak stuff. Stuff that belongs in the engine leaks out, or to the wrong part of the engine. Sometimes the leaking stuff catches fire. If there is weather outside it will leak in. Sometimes drain holes for the water that leaks in will plug preventing it from leaking out.
Sports cars are made from natural substances like wood, leather, coco fiber and wool. When they get wet nature takes it’s course and they smell like old sports cars. Maybe old computer and TV set smell could do the trick.
Real sports cars have some optimizations left as an exercise for the owner. An opportunity to be the “Dreaded Previous Owner” of myth and legend. I am sure that there are plenty of of things that are not government regulated that enthusiasts could mess around with. Torque vectoring for example. Put a couple of knobs that control torque vectoring depending on speed, acceleration, and steering input, and the sports car enthusiast will be entertained for months on end.
A sanctioning body needs to come up with classifications similar to current sports cars classes based on engine size. Maybe a competition classed by overall weight, or on battery weight. It’s a lot more fun to race when there are rules to push against. A bunch of arbitrary classes of cars to compete with each other other is needed.
Hmm, what else? Maybe get pop musicians to write songs about them?
COTD!
I see a lot of comments saying “fun” which is super subjective. It’s clear that for many hybrid or EV owners, it’s plenty fun to just mash the go pedal and rocket away.
I’d argue an EV sports car is one that’s taken the time to manage its weight well and provides accurate steering input. Think of the difference between a Civic hybrid and a GTI with the fancy differential – both FWD with plenty of power, but the GTI practically rewards you for taking a corner at speed. So many EV and ICE cars have just fine steering today that it’s dull.
It’s those two things that also make me optimistic for the NE Miata (which will be partially, if not fully, electrified) because those two attributes are what defines the Miata, so I’m certain Mazda wouldn’t release a car until they’re sure they can stay faithful to that.
The NE will not be electrified; I operate on the assumption that there will not be an NF.
Same basic things that have always constituted a sports car – 2 seats, small, fun and engaging to drive, stylish
Note that “speed” is not a criterion, because many true vintage sports cars, while quick enough to get out of their own way, weren’t all that quick, its not a necessary feature, more of a nice to have. Having fun at legal speeds in something that feels like its going 100 when its really only doing 60 is sort of the classic roadster experience
A car that let’s you drive it.