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You Should Probably Lease That EV You Want Right Now

Tmd Lease That Ev Ts

Every legislative decision around EV tax credits is like pulling teeth, from the battle to overhaul them to this new movement to repeal them. The House has already made its proposal, but that’s just one arm of the federal government. As it turns out, the Senate wants to end the current system even sooner — Like, possibly as soon as July 4 in certain cases. This means if you’re shopping for an EV, you might want to hurry up, as if the Senate gets its way, certain lease deals could be hit particularly hard.

We’re getting the most controversial news out of the way first, because everything else here is a bit less heavy. A new report suggests McKinsey put out the option of Stellantis selling Maserati, Ontario Premier Doug Ford recently had a close brush with alleged car thieves, and Jerry Bruckheimer and Tom Cruise want to get out there and hit the pace car again.

Vidframe Min Top
Vidframe Min Bottom

It’s a little grab bag of everything on today’s edition of The Morning Dump, proposed car laws and industry news and unusual car crime and film. I’ll be in the seat for the next few days taking over from Matt, so pull yourself a shot of espresso and get ready to read. Happy Friday, everyone.

The Senate Wants An Abrupt End To EV Tax Credits

Hyundai Ioniq 6 EV
Photo credit: Hyundai

We all kinda saw this coming, right? After making combustion engines a platform point, the current administration is working to roll back EV tax credits. After all, when you have a majority in the House and Senate aligned with the President, it’s easier to get stuff through before midterms have a chance of realigning the legislative branch. It’s not new information that EV tax credits are on the chopping block, but some of these credits could be axed sooner than expected. While the House proposes sunsetting credits for automakers who’ve built more than 200,000 EVs starting in 2026, the Senate is proposing a far more aggressive approach, as Automotive News reports.

The Senate version, released from the Finance Committee on June 16, treats all automakers the same by ending the EV tax credit within 180 days of the bill’s passage. That proposal would also cut the EV leasing credit immediately for vehicles that don’t meet local content rules and in 180 days for those that do.

“I think the Senate version is worse, totally cold turkey, and the lease thing is so important,” said Mike Murphy, a Republican political consultant and CEO of the American EV Jobs Alliance, a pro-EV lobbying group. “Bottom line is the Senate is really trying to put a stake in the heart of EV subsidies.”

The proposed immediate tax credit discontinuation for certain leases is especially important, because many cars that don’t quality for the full $7,500 tax credit if bought due to battery sourcing and/or place of assembly do qualify for the credit if they’re leased. Not only does this make driving a new EV more affordable, it also ensures a steady supply of gently used EVs once they come off lease in order to claw back some of the leasing super-cliff we’re now facing due to a downturn in new vehicle leasing starting in 2020.

While it’s true that EV tax credits for buyers probably can’t last forever, to me it seems soon to be phasing them out. We certainly haven’t reached natural price parity with combustion-powered equivalent models across the board, and many buyers are leaning on heavily discounted EV leases for reliable, reasonably inexpensive transportation now that the EPA’ footprint rule has basically killed subcompact cars. Going cold turkey on leasing credits for vehicles that don’t meet local content rules as soon as the bill passes would be a serious blow to consumers, not to mention the 180-day phase-out for qualifying vehicles. It’s no secret that credits play a huge role in consumer appeal and affordability, and J.D. Power has some surveys to back that up.

“For customers of Honda and Volkswagen, on average, the tax credit was the No. 1 purchase reason. For brands like Tesla, Cadillac and Chevrolet, among others, tax credits were amid the top three most influential purchase reasons,” [J.D. Power EV practice executive director Brent] Gruber said.

The self-imposed deadline for deciding when and how EV tax credits will be phased out is July 4, which means if you want to lock in a deal with absolute certainty regardless of whether the Senate’s proposal prevails, you have less than two weeks. Obviously, don’t go out and panic buy a car that you don’t need, but if you’re already shopping deals or have serious plans to lease an EV within the next three months, you might want to pick up the pace a touch.

The Trouble With Maserati

Maserati Grecale, the combustion version, not the EV version.
Photo credit: Maserati

Oh, Maserati. What will we ever do with you? With total global sales more than halving last year to just 11,300 units, several canceled projects including the MC20 Folgore, and seemingly no easy way forward, it shouldn’t be surprising to hear Reuters report that Stellantis is mulling a sale of the Italian brand. This latest potential avenue seems to have started after the brand contracted McKinsey, a move that is rarely considered a good sign because no matter the industry, consulting is expensive and is generally an avenue to turn to when you’ve either exhausted all resources on hand or are trying something you’ve never done before. Considering Stellantis has extensive experience making cars and running car brands, seeking the help of big consultants for Maserati doesn’t paint a rosy picture of the present.

Stellantis hired consultant McKinsey early in April to advise it on the effects of the U.S. tariffs on Maserati and Alfa Romeo as the two brands prepare future plans. Stellantis affirmed then that it was fully committed to both brands.

However, a possible divestment of Maserati, its only luxury brand, is among the options McKinsey is exploring for Stellantis, the two sources told Reuters, adding the adviser’s assessment was still in the early stages. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorised to discuss the matter publicly.

Aside from the fact that DS is also a Stellantis-owned luxury brand, it’s not surprising to hear that selling Maserati has been suggested. Part of the dark side of consulting is having a scapegoat to blame if you already want to sell an entity or strip it of its assets, and while a decision hasn’t been made yet, it doesn’t sound like a sale is entirely off the table. It’s a divisive issue that reportedly comes with internal friction.

Some board members think Stellantis is not in a position to sustainably re-launch Maserati and suggest selling it is the best option. Others think Maserati still has value and that selling its only luxury brand would be a huge reputational setback for Stellantis.

The hard part here is that both sides have compelling arguments. On the one hand, it’s hard to justify several six-figure cars with reworked Alfa Romeo bones (looking at you, Grecale and GranTurismo), but Stellantis doesn’t have a whole lot of parts bin options. What’s it gonna do, use the STLA Large platform seen underneath the Dodge Charger Daytona, or launch a Hemi-powered Maserati just to have a V8? The former still seems to need some ironing out, while the latter just wouldn’t fly. On the other, if Stellantis were to reposition Maserati, the brand could be more successful.

Maserati Granturismo
Photo credit: Maserati

Looking at actual market values of products, the GranTurismo needs at least a $20,000 haircut to move it in line with the Mercedes-AMG GT, and the Grecale probably needs a price point $8,000 to $10,000 lower than where it’s at right now so it can cosy up to combustion-loyal Porsche Macan owners who’ll soon be left without a really close replacement. Right now, Stellantis’ official statement to Reuters is “Respectfully, Maserati is not for sale,” but it’ll take some serious product and strategy to rebuild the storied marque. If Stellantis isn’t able to put in the work, maybe exploring a potential sale is the best option. Maserati was doing great when Ferrari owned it, maybe it’s time to see if Maranello wants it back.

Alleged Car Thieves Reportedly Tried To Steal A Car From A Sitting Politician’s House

Doug Ford
Photo credit: Government of Ontario

If you’re American and watch cable news, you’re probably now aware of Ontario Premier Doug Ford, brother of the late Rob Ford. He’s been an unexpected voice in the tariff war, and while we aren’t going to get into Canadian politics here, one thing everyone can say is that he’s certainly a visible public figure in North America. It’s not surprising that the leader of a province would have a security detail in case anything happened, and while no threats to safety have been posed, something really dumb almost happened—Global News reports that four people have been arrested on charges of possessing an electronic device for motor vehicle theft after they were reportedly caught casing Ford’s residence on Tuesday.

Around 12:30 a.m., police said officers saw people in a vehicle wearing masks and slowing down as it approached a driveway in the area of Lawrence Avenue West and Royal York Road, the area where Ford lives.

A spokesperson for Toronto police confirmed that the incident was believed to be targeting Ford’s home address.

Police said they initiated a vehicle stop and one of the suspects got out of the car to run. Inside the car, they said they found a key reprogramming device and a programmable master key.

If I were to hazard a guess, the “master key” was probably just a blank fob, but with the right fob and programming device, that can be enough to steal whichever make of car is named on the fob. Still, this is what we call instant karma, but it also points to a problem that still needs tamping down. As we’ve previously detailed, organized car theft is a big problem in parts of Canada, with stolen vehicles exported to countries with relaxed rules on what vehicles make it in. There’s no easy solution here, so it’s understandable that more and more Canadian car owners are installing bollards on their driveways.

Hit The Pace Car Again

If we’re talking about the greatest car films of all time, “Days of Thunder” with Tom Cruise has to be up there on the list. From the rental car race to the cinematography of the cars on the ovals, it works well if you don’t take it too seriously, and despite basically being “Top Gun” with cars, it’s drawn admiration from some big names including Quentin Tarantino. If you still love it, you’re going to like this tidbit of news coming down the wire.

In an interview with ET from the red carpet of “F1: The Movie”, Jerry Bruckheimer has said that he and Tom Cruise are collaborating on a sequel to the iconic NASCAR film. We don’t know much right now, as it sounds like the project is in early development, but Bruckheimer said “We’ll have something really exciting for an audience once we pull it together.”

If this ends up happening, it’s going to rule. Has everything from the original “Days of Thunder” aged perfectly? No, but give it the leeway usually needed for a 35-year-old film and it still holds up pretty well if you take merely a semi-serious approach. Plus, if “Top Gun 2” was a smash hit, who says the “Days of Thunder” concept won’t be more successful when rebooted than it was at the original box office? It feels about time we had another NASCAR film, and I’m rooting for Bruckheimer and Cruise to pull this off.

What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD

Fair warning: The song I’m about to show you isn’t exactly outstanding or critically acclaimed, but it is interesting. There’s always something fascinating about insane collaborations between people you’d never think would be on the same track. In this case, it’s Ludacris, Zakk Wilde, Chad Kroeger from Nickelback, and the second singer of Three Days Grace, Matt Walst.

See, before Walst joined Three Days Grace, he had a band called My Darkest Days, and that effort managed to pull all these artist together for a debut single called, um, “Porn Star Dancing.” I mean, Chad Kroeger makes sense considering My Darkest Days was signed to 604 Records, but Zakk Wilde is a bit left-field for this flavor of music and Ludacris was only originally supposed to be on the Canadian version, but come on. Of course Luda rapping about strip clubs would have appeal everywhere, it was only a matter of time before his feature made it to the U.S. release.

I’m struggling to find an organic reason why “Porn Star Dancing” should’ve taken off, but it was big in Canada thanks to CanCon laws and the last dredges of post-grunge popularity, and it went to number one on the Billboard Modern Rock chart in America. The zeitgeist of 2010’s early stage of recession recovery probably helped because this is the sort of trashy, lecherous guilty pleasure that could get the people going in an era of trash TV and general leering. Truly one of the more bizarre modern rock tracks, but hey, if you haven’t heard of it before, now you have an unhinged musical fact to pull out at parties. Actually, given the subject matter, maybe “pull out” is the wrong way to phrase it.

The Big Question:

How long should the U.S. continue with EV tax credits?

Top graphic credit: Kia

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Andy Individual
Andy Individual
7 months ago

Ending EV credits/subsidies would probably be fine if it meant an end to all subsidies for petroleum production and sales. Price in true cost and let the market decide.

Somehow hidden costs for environmental degradation, air pollution, CO2 and methane emissions, etc. would have to get factored in.

ROFL thinking that would ever happen.

Mr. Stabby
Member
Mr. Stabby
7 months ago

Yeah, we need the carrot and the stick. Let’s let petroleum internalize those externalized costs.

Mrbrown89
Member
Mrbrown89
7 months ago

The leasing loophole should be closed but keeping the incentive to actually bring the supply chain to the US. Tax credit = built in America. I dont know what will be the scenario in 2026 when I have to renew my lease. If gas prices are high because of things and the tax credit is gone, I will probably just keep the car.

Droid
Member
Droid
7 months ago

no overt strategy, apparent lack of coordinated product planning and corporate governance modeled on a balkanized federation of warring tribes…

Stellantis = Stillaimless

Tbird
Member
Tbird
7 months ago

I actually understood Maserati as the “entry level” Ferrari brand. I have a harder time accepting it as a “most premium” Stellantis product. The brand has been through hell and back.

Tbird
Member
Tbird
7 months ago
Reply to  Tbird

Sell any rwd Sports Car, GT or SUV (gasp) as Maserati. Leave Ferrari for the rear engined hypercars.

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
7 months ago
Reply to  Tbird

Maserati is another brand like Jaguar that did some amazing things decades ago, but really should go to the great parking lot in the sky. It’s just a rotting zombie at this point, put it out of it’s misery.

Tbird
Member
Tbird
7 months ago
Reply to  Kevin Rhodes

I feel your pain. I hate to see these marques die, but it is inevitable without competitive product.

Peter d
Member
Peter d
7 months ago
Reply to  Tbird

The thing is Maserati should be competing with Mercedes, Porsche, or BMW – but their list prices are at least 20% more than comparable vehicles – it makes no sense and leads to big new car discounts and very high depreciation. If they just priced right from the start they would be selling way more cars. Also their trim levels have too big jumps in price and the base models need to be better. The Grecale could be a winner if it was priced better and the base engine was a bit better. The car is beautiful and reviewers say it drives well.

TheDrunkenWrench
Member
TheDrunkenWrench
7 months ago

I love Days of Thunder, I love Top Gun and enjoyed the sequel immensely.

Bring on Days of Thunder 2: Beyond Thunder Oval. My body is ready.

Sometimes you have to stop looking for Oscars and just enjoy the damn movie for the fun it is.

Tbird
Member
Tbird
7 months ago

THIS!!!

Raiders of the Lost Ark may just be the best built action/adventure movie ever made. Everything since has been derivative. The Empire Strikes Back is, and always will be the greatest Star Wars film. I recall being awed in the theatre by the original Jurrasic Park. Apollo 13 seemed real.

The first film rented when dad bought our first VHS player was Top Gun.

Last edited 7 months ago by Tbird
Rad Barchetta
Member
Rad Barchetta
7 months ago

Days of Thunder 2: The Revenge of Watkins Glen

Imagine how much mayhem there would be in a Bruckheimer NASCAR road course movie.

Cheap Bastard
Member
Cheap Bastard
7 months ago

“There’s no easy solution here”

No, not since removable distributor rotors stopped being a thing.

Kill switches OTOH still work.

TheDrunkenWrench
Member
TheDrunkenWrench
7 months ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

Bring back keys. It’s all the PTS cars getting stolen. Every vehicle sold in Canada is already required to have an immobilizer, bring back the keys!

Cheap Bastard
Member
Cheap Bastard
7 months ago

Also stick shifts.

Come to think of it my old TR3 had a stick shift, PTS AND a physical key yet it was still ridiculously easy to steal. Unless the distributor rotor was removed that is.

Last edited 7 months ago by Cheap Bastard
*Jason*
*Jason*
7 months ago

It was the opposite here in the USA with the Hyundia / Kias. It was the base version with keys that didn’t have an immobilizer.

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
7 months ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

These things deter casual thieves. The professionals will just bring a tow truck.

Cheap Bastard
Member
Cheap Bastard
7 months ago
Reply to  Kevin Rhodes

Perhaps but it would be enough to stop Kia Bratz

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
7 months ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

But isn’t having a KIA stolen just being done a favor? I kid, my Mom loves her Soul (new enough to have an immobilizer).

Nobody is stealing my Spitfire without a tow truck. Without knowing how to use both a stickshift and a completely unmarked choke, you aren’t going anywhere. Probably not getting it into reverse unless you know them either.

Cheap Bastard
Member
Cheap Bastard
7 months ago
Reply to  Kevin Rhodes

“But isn’t having a KIA stolen just being done a favor”

Depends. How’s your insurance coverage? Will it cover the stack of Rembrandts you had in the trunk?

“Nobody is stealing my Spitfire without a tow truck”

Oh I’m not so sure. I’ve seen musclebrained HS athletes pick it up a Triumph so I’m pretty sure they could just walk off with your Spitfire.

Boulevard_Yachtsman
Member
Boulevard_Yachtsman
7 months ago

Idk how long the credits should last, but since they’re likely to be cancelled before the end of the year I’ll be asking for my 50 bucks back from Slate fairly soon. Sorry Bezos and Indiana, it was a cool idea.

Needles Balloon
Needles Balloon
7 months ago

Reducing Maserati prices would make them directly compete with Alfa, so I think it’s probably better to sell the brand. However, they should probably wait because most potential buyers (Chinese automakers, private or state-owned) are currently embroiled in a severe price war to death and cannot afford to take on a struggling brand until it eases. Maserati investments would likely not be super synergistic, as Chinese automakers don’t really make engines bigger than 2.0Ts, but high-end PHEVs might work and their EV platforms will be obviously better. Apart from their exotic sounding name, I think a lot of the brand’s strength lies in having baby Ferrari engines, which is a significant liability when ICEs are no longer the future.

I think Chinese ownership of Alfa Romeo has a lot more potential, since they could take an existing competent EV platform and apply attractive exterior and interior styling (with more buttons) and good suspension tuning, in contrast to the Chinese brand’s version which has an aero focused exterior, touchscreen-first interior and comfort suspension tuning. The Chinese 2.0T engine limitation would not really be a problem here especially with a good PHEV setup. It would set Alfa up to be an aspirational but attainable designer Italian brand. Stellantis likely won’t sell Alfa for this reason, as the brand is far more salvageable for them too, but the Chinese could probs do it better with decent management (see Volvo under Geely)

Last edited 7 months ago by Needles Balloon
Cheap Bastard
Member
Cheap Bastard
7 months ago

“I think a lot of the brand’s strength lies in having baby Ferrari engines”

Those are ACTUAL Ferrari engines:

“Since 2001, a Ferrari engine has been installed in almost every pre-owned Maserati car. There aren’t many outliers, such the Maserati Quattroporte from 2013. All of the Maserati cars in the current 2021 lineup have Ferrari motors.”

https://gearshifters.org/ferrari/which-maseratis-have-ferrari-engines/

and it was Fiat that had the “baby Ferraris”, e.g. my old X-1/9.

Alter_Id
Alter_Id
7 months ago

I think Chinese ownership of Alfa Romeo has a lot more potential, since they could take an existing competent EV platform and apply attractive exterior and interior styling (with more buttons) and good suspension tuning…

Or they could produce another Alfa Arna, with classic Italian reliability, rustproofing and build quality married to the style and driving sophistication of an early ’80s Nissan hatchback.

ClutchAbuse
Member
ClutchAbuse
7 months ago

We jumped on our ID4 in January specifically because we figured this would happen. I really like having an electric car for day to day use and want to continue owning one in the future. But, with all the shit Trump and the Republicans are doing, I have a feeling it’s going to sting when we replace this one in 2.5 years.

Alexk98
Member
Alexk98
7 months ago

selling its only luxury brand would be a huge reputational setback for Stellantis

Every single Stellantis decision made over the past 5 years has also caused reputational setbacks for Stellantis

Username Loading....
Member
Username Loading....
7 months ago

Stellantis: Sell Maseratis
McKinsey: Sell Maserati

Peter d
Member
Peter d
7 months ago

The thing is you don’t hire McKinsey to do actual research and work, you hire them as cover-your-ass insurance to do whatever you as VP want to do. If you wanted actual insightful research you would hire a lower tier consultant and pay them to actually do real research.

Joke #119!
Joke #119!
7 months ago

Trump could veto the bill if he gets paid enough to veto it or if he doesn’t get paid enough to sign it.

Eggsalad
Eggsalad
7 months ago

Is Maserati still a halo brand? I lost any respect I might have had for “real” Maseratis when they introduced the BiTurbo in the 1980s. The nameplate itself has more value that the cars.

Arch Duke Maxyenko
Member
Arch Duke Maxyenko
7 months ago

So how much money did Stellantis pay McKinsey to give them that nugget of wisdom and how much of that should have just gone into making a compelling Maserati?

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
7 months ago

Too much. Any of us here would have given them the same advice for free.

Though my advice is just take Maserati out behind the factory and shoot it. Just tell the few enthusiasts it went to live on a farm upstate.

Peter d
Member
Peter d
7 months ago

At least 7 figures, maybe 8.

ImissmyoldScout
Member
ImissmyoldScout
7 months ago

How long should the U.S. continue with EV tax credits?

Until we hit a set percentage of adoption. What’s the right percentage? Dunno. How about 50%?

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
7 months ago

With how things stand now concerning the tech and infrastructure, 50% seems like a pipe dream. Not until, if ever, there is a major breakthrough in both.

Ron Gartner
Ron Gartner
7 months ago

A Days of Thunder 2 movie would be fantastic! NASCAR is seeing a younger demo since the jump to Amazon so getting even more from a film would be awesome. The last big NASCAR movie was Herbie: Fully Loaded and Talladega Nights and I think a new film would be a great way to kind of drop public perception from the goofy tone of those two films.

Maserati should just become the Ferrari GT brand. Sell them to Ferrari and let Ferrari put their engines into front engined, RWD/AWD driven, coupes/sedans/convertibles/SUVs with high quality interiors and Italian styling. You can then develop new cars and SUV’s without sullying the Ferrari name. Sell them for a little less than a Ferrari with good lease deals and you’ll hopefully make people forget the Ghibli Doug Demuro reviews.

FormerTXJeepGuy
Member
FormerTXJeepGuy
7 months ago

Maserati should have stayed with Ferrari to begin with. Is Alfa not considered a luxury brand?

We already had a Days of Thunder sequel, Talledega Nights. Both feature John C Riley.

*Jason*
*Jason*
7 months ago

That comment was odd to me as well. I see both Alfa and Maserati as luxury brands. Stellantis does not need both and I don’t really have an opinion on which one is more valuable globally or in the USA.

FormerTXJeepGuy
Member
FormerTXJeepGuy
7 months ago
Reply to  *Jason*

Neither are valuable in the USA and honestly should just be pulled out. Especially if you’re also just going to sell a rebadged Alfa SUV as a Dodge Hornet.

*Jason*
*Jason*
7 months ago

Agreed. Fiat, Alfa, Maserati could call be killed off in the USA with no real impact. So could Chrysler and Ram. Every viable product that Stellantis sells in the USA could be sold under the Dodge and Jeep brands.

However, I suspect Stellantis will want a luxury brand in the USA. Chrysler has not been a luxury brand in my lifetime (I’m almost 50) so that leaves one of the Italians.

There is also the reality that killing brands in the USA costs billions as you have to buy back the dealer franchises. I suspect that is the only reason the Chrysler is still around. Most dealers are Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, RAM and Stellantis sprinkles their model lineup over those brands to keep from having to spend money to buy back franchises.

Needles Balloon
Needles Balloon
7 months ago
Reply to  *Jason*

I also see Chrysler as a good future asset, because they are the only brand they have that can pass off aero/range-focused EVs as sleek and acceptable. Jeep obviously must be boxier, while Dodge needs to sacrifice some range for sportiness. Might as well leave the Pacifica under it as a stopgap.

*Jason*
*Jason*
7 months ago

Yes, it makes sense right now to keep the Pacifica as a Chrysler because if they didn’t they would have nothing for Chrysler dealers to sell. However, neither the Pacifica name nor selling it as a Chrysler made sense to me. The Chrysler group minivan with the most name recognition and following was the Dodge Caravan. If it was going to be a Chrysler there was the Town and Country name. Why revive a name they used on a failed crossover? (2004 – 2008 Pacifica)

I don’t really see that a Dodge has to be especially sporty – most of them in my lifetime have not been. Any new Chrysler EV is likely to be a crossover anyways not a sedan or sports car. No reason Stellantis couldn’t sell their own version of a Lyriq or Mach-E

VanGuy
Member
VanGuy
7 months ago
Reply to  *Jason*

I mean, I think of Alfa as luxury here, but is it luxury overseas? I’d weigh the sales worldwide relative to its image.

*Jason*
*Jason*
7 months ago
Reply to  VanGuy

I honestly don’t know. Maybe Alfa is the Italian Buick or Pontiac.

AI tells me Stellantis sold 62,000 Alfas globally and 9,000 in the USA last year. Maserati sold 11K globally and 4,800 in the USA. Realistically neither brand really matters.

VanGuy
Member
VanGuy
7 months ago
Reply to  *Jason*

Wow. I had no idea Alfa was that small. Still, given that a notable percentage of Stellantis ownership is French, there’s a reason they’re still on there.

VanGuy
Member
VanGuy
7 months ago
Reply to  VanGuy

That’s more or less what I assumed. Thank you for confirming my preconceived notions.

*Jason*
*Jason*
7 months ago

How long should the U.S. continue with EV tax credits?”

Until they expire under current law which is 2032. That includes both the retail tax credit for buyers and the manufacturing credits for corporations.

If the USA is really serious about wanting to increase US manufacturing they not only need to offer credits to make US manufacturing competitive with other parts of the world but they need to have a consistent policy. Other countries have industrial policy goals and incentivize companies in line with those goals. Pretending it is all up the “free market” is fantasy.

Nobody with half a brain can expect companies to commit to spending billions to build new US manufacturing plants if the promised credits that make them viable could disappear before the plant is finished. If the USA screws over all the companies that built US manufacturing capacity in response to the IRA incentives we are truly screwed going forward. Nobody wants to do business in a country that changes regulations and tax structure every 4 years. We also simply aren’t as important as we used to be with only 15% of global GDP. The world can in fact trade with each other and ignore the US market.

If the Republicans are going to be stupid and screw over companies they should make it simple and end tax credits at the end of the year.

Who Knows
Member
Who Knows
7 months ago

I’d be fine with the EV tax credit ending immediately if all fossil fuel subsidies were also ended, as well as payments for externalities (carbon tax) implemented.

Instead of “subsidies”, the government could focus on the “industry investments” part of the IRA (really the same thing), in working to get the US supply and manufacturing base for EVs and other clean technologies competitive with China, instead of just hitting pause on everything and getting farther behind. I’d really like to see the US continue its history of new tech innovation, instead of just giving up and going backwards.

FndrStrat06
FndrStrat06
7 months ago
Reply to  Who Knows

I’d be fine with the EV tax credit ending immediately if all fossil fuel subsidies were also ended, as well as payments for externalities (carbon tax) implemented.

I think most people would, and this is probably exactly why the petroleum industry is lobbying so hard against the EV credits.

if oil had to stand on its own without subsidies from the federal government, I think a ton more people would see the cost benefits of EVs.

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
7 months ago

My argument: every country should continue with the EV credits until it catches up to oil industry subsidies, or reduce oil industry subsidies until it aligns with EV credits.

Nathan
Nathan
7 months ago
Reply to  Spikedlemon

The problem with this argument is that most of the oil subsidies in the world are paid in developing countries, such as Saudi Arabia’s $7k per person spent on gasoline subsidies. In the US, taxes paid exceed the value of subsidies.

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
7 months ago
Reply to  Nathan

Are countries like Saudi and the other oil kingpins considered “developing” anymore?

They tend to hold some powerful cards, and don’t need any charity, so I’d say they are pretty well-developed at this point.

*Jason*
*Jason*
7 months ago
Reply to  Nathan

In the US, taxes paid exceed the value of subsidies.”

Yes, but that is still a discount in taxes. Oil and gas companies get special breaks that reduce their tax burden. EV subsidies work the same way – both retail and corporate.

10001010
Member
10001010
7 months ago

We just saw Metallica here in Houston last weekend. Opening for them was Suicidal Tendencies(!!!!!) and some little Texas band named Pantera. Anyways, filling in for Dimebag was Zakk Wylde. I hadn’t listened to Porn Star Dancing in almost 10 years but seeing him live reminded me of it and I pulled it up last weekend. Still a really catchy tune but really weird to see it show up here in the morning dump in the same week is awfully coincidental.

Last edited 7 months ago by 10001010
Ryan
Member
Ryan
7 months ago

I’m sure NASCAR has their checkbook in hand as well. I would imagine the sanctioning body is looking for this to be what Drive To Survive was for Formula 1. They desperately need a younger audience and this is one way to potentially work towards that.

Cheats McCheats
Cheats McCheats
7 months ago
Reply to  Ryan

I think they would be happy for any audience at this point.

Michael Beranek
Member
Michael Beranek
7 months ago
Reply to  Ryan

My bet is they just crib the plot from Cars 3 and call it a day.

Ryan
Member
Ryan
7 months ago

“Hey Jerry, Cruise here. I just saw this amazing movie and I think we can adapt it’s plot for a Days of Thunder sequel. Check it out, it’s called Driven. Let me know when we can start; I’m already getting into Sylvester’s character.”

TheBadGiftOfTheDog
TheBadGiftOfTheDog
7 months ago

“How long should the U.S. continue with EV tax credits?”

For as long as there are farm subsidies.

Cheats McCheats
Cheats McCheats
7 months ago

or gas subsidies…

Michael Beranek
Member
Michael Beranek
7 months ago

I hear we’re going to have one of those oil subsidies happen violently, but the decision will come “in two weeks”.
Kind of like the infrastructure plan was coming in “two weeks”.
And the replacement for the ACA (ugh…”Obamacare”…grumble) is coming in “two weeks”.

Cheats McCheats
Cheats McCheats
7 months ago

Don’t forget a decision about Russia in 2 weeks

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
7 months ago

But corn!

I don't hate manual transmissions
Member
I don't hate manual transmissions
7 months ago
Reply to  Spikedlemon

Yeah. Not to be too contrarian here, but people gotta eat. There are ways (some harder than others, especially depending upon where you live) around not having a car.

I’m not arguing the farm bill is perfect (far from it), but it does help ensure we all don’t starve. (At least as long as there’s adequate manpower to work the fields, which is apparently starting to become a problem.)

*Jason*
*Jason*
7 months ago

40% of the US corn crop is turned into ethanol, 40% is fed to livestock, 20% is used for human consumption and a lot of that is in the form of things like high fructose corn syrup.

There is not a shortage of workers to grow highly mechanized crops like corn, wheat, and soybeans. The shortage is for people that do the hard manual work growing things that people eat directly like fruits and vegetables.

I don't hate manual transmissions
Member
I don't hate manual transmissions
7 months ago
Reply to  *Jason*

There’s a significant chunk of that corn that’s exported (or was, prior to the tariffs wars – last numbers I found after quick Google search showed 17.5% of it in 2020), but yeah, a lot of it goes to the ethanol producers (which also get stupid levels of government subsidies).

A lot of the highly mechanized stuff is going to be autonomous in the not too distant future – they’re already developing drive less tractors. They joke about drones turning our military’s air wing into the US Chair Force, but I won’t be surprised if farming becomes a similar endeavor – they’ll manage it all from a desk with a bank of monitors.

It’s the high manual labor crops that I’m worried about. I once predicted on this very site we’ll see $10 heads of lettuce. I was exaggerating a bit at the time, but I think we’re getting closer and closer to that actually happening.

Get Stoney
Get Stoney
7 months ago

Seeing how the whole Ag industry is being bought up by companies valued in the “close to a Trillion” category, I’m sure they will figure it out.

The little guys need the help more than ever, if we are to eat healthy ever again.

Angel "the Cobra" Martin
Member
Angel "the Cobra" Martin
7 months ago

“Considering Stellantis has extensive experience making cars and running car brands…into the ground.” FTFY

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
7 months ago

“running” used loosely.

Logan
Logan
7 months ago

Wow the Honda E is finally available in the US?

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