Home » BMW Dealership Honors Terrible Deal Made By Its AI Chatbot

BMW Dealership Honors Terrible Deal Made By Its AI Chatbot

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When I was a geeky kid, reading all sorts of science fiction, the idea of advanced artificial intelligences came up often. Sometimes in the form of robots, sometimes in the form of a computer without a robotic body, but always something thought provoking as these synthetic brains breached the boundaries of sentience and started to grapple with the mysteries of identity and what it means to be something aware of one’s self. They asked what this thing called “love” is or wished to experience laughter or something equally profound.

What they almost never did was make buyback deals on used BMWs that would later be reneged upon.

Vidframe Min Top
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And yet, here in our stupid reality, that’s what AI is actually doing, when it’s not too busy giving you bad advice or putting pictures of famous people you find online in skimpy clothes. This particular situation, CBC writes, happened at the BMW Toronto dealership, when 2021 BMW X3 XDrive 30i owner Zack Giacomelli, displeased from having to do expensive repairs on the car, decided to reach out to BMW Toronto to see if they were interested in buying the car back.

Happily, they were! At least, according to BMW Toronto’s online representative, named Quinn.

Quinn offered $27,162.79 for the BMW, covering the remaining balance on the car, with “no money owing, and no cash back,” according to texts with Quinn that Giacomelli shared with CBC. Giacomelli was very happy with this offer, and for the hell of it made a counteroffer of $28,000, which Quinn allegedly stated “sounds reasonable.” Quinn even allegedly suggested that Giacomelli come by the dealership to “lock in today at 3:30.”

Everyone should be happy, right? A deal is about to be struck!

Well, not quite. According to CBC,

“Moments later, Giacomelli said, a BMW Toronto sales consultant called to revoke the offer, explaining that Quinn wasn’t a real person, but rather an artificial intelligence chatbot that had made the offer in error.”

Why did the dealership allegedly rescind the offer? Because Quinn is not a human being: Quinn is an AI chatbot.

This of course brings up that perennial philosophical question: so what?

Yes, Quinn is an AI, but it’s also acting on behalf of the dealership, and customers who interact with Quinn have no way of knowing if Quinn is man or machine; just ask Alan Turing about that.

Quinn Chatbot Texts 1
Screenshot: YouTube/CBC

Giacomelli brings up an excellent point about all of this, telling CBC:

“If they’re going to be replacing their employees’ jobs with AI, then they need to be honouring what that AI says.”

Mr. Giacomelli, I couldn’t agree more.

You can’t have it both ways; a business can’t automate a job that was formerly a person with authority to make deals like this and then decide that no, what this machine says while operating as an agent of the dealership cannot be taken as actual, binding interactions with the dealership, like what the human agents they replaced did. How the hell is a customer supposed to know that? And if the AI will say things that aren’t actually what the dealership intends to do, then what’s the point of the damn AI?

If a human employee had made a deal like this, the dealership could likely have to honor it, or at the very least consider it. Just as a human can be an idiot and make bad decisions, an AI can be an idiot as well, and perhaps even could execute idiocy with efficiencies and speeds no human could hope to match.

An AI chatbot may be able to interact convincingly with a customer, but it fundamentally does not understand what it’s doing. It has no idea what cars actually are or how much money is actually worth or, well, anything about life in the world, really. It’s a bunch of branching conditionals and massive databases that delivers the illusion of sentience. The reality is it doesn’t “know” jack feces.

Eventually, the dealership did honor the $27,162.79 offer, so they did end up doing the right thing in the end. But even if they hadn’t, the law seems to be on Giacomelli’s side. Canadian law has already encountered this issue, as a case in 2024 ruled that companies (in this specific case, Air Canada) are indeed responsible for what their AI agents tell customers.

The legal decision makes its point and reasoning quite clear:

“Air Canada argues it cannot be held liable for information provided by one of its agents, servants, or representatives – including a chatbot. It does not explain why it believes that is the case. In effect, Air Canada suggests the chatbot is a separate legal entity that is responsible for its own actions. This is a remarkable submission. While a chatbot has an interactive component, it is still just a part of Air Canada’s website. It should be obvious to Air Canada that it is responsible for all the information on its website. It makes no difference whether the information comes from a static page or a chatbot.”

Where that 2024 case made clear that it “makes no difference whether the information comes from a static page or a chatbot,” it would also stand to reason, and perhaps even more strongly, that it makes no difference if an official communication from a car dealership comes from a human agent or a silicon one.

Hopefully, this case will be noticed by other businesses using a chatbot to interact with clients and customers. You can’t embrace the economics of getting rid of employees in favor of AI without accepting whatever some AI may say or do while representing the organization. AIs are, bluntly, idiots. They can’t help it; they’re not alive, and have no genuine understanding of the world. Is that really what a company wants representing it?

(top image: Jason Torchinsky, YouTube, CBC)

 

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Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
1 month ago

While I applaud the dealership for standing behind the deal, I feel you are making the invalid assumption that a human salesdroid has any authority to make pricing promises either. That looks to be different in Canukistan, but they generally do not South of the Border. It’s not a deal until it’s on “paper”, be that dead trees or Docusign or equivalent with all applicable signatures.

But as with most law in the US, YMMV highly dependent on exactly where you are at the time.

Space
Space
1 month ago

Hah, Air Canada. The same company that let someone fly their planes for 27 years without a licence, I could totally see them cutting corners with AI.

Sklooner
Member
Sklooner
1 month ago
Reply to  Space

Not quite true he had a fishing licence

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
1 month ago
Reply to  Space

Did he crash?
No?
Then what are you complaining about?

Mercedes Streeter
Mercedes Streeter
1 month ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

One bit often glossed over in that one is that the pilot passed their regular checks. To the airline, he was just another pilot. He just didn’t have the proper license.

TheDrunkenWrench
Member
TheDrunkenWrench
1 month ago

That was like my mechanic career! I only spent the latter half of it licensed. But my experience in the first half let me plead my case to the governing body to skip the 3 years of trade school and just challenge the license.

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
1 month ago

Technically, my certification to deploy Dell PowerStore systems has expired (and won’t be renewed – we don’t sell them anymore so not worth the bother) – but who do you want doing that? Me, with 10 years of experience doing it, or some newb who just took the training class and got the minimum passing score on the exam so he’s “certified”. An exam I helped write. Of course, chances are reasonably good nobody is going to die if a PowerStore crashes.

I’d want you wrenching on my car over some licensed kid right out of school for sure!

TheDrunkenWrench
Member
TheDrunkenWrench
1 month ago
Reply to  Kevin Rhodes

Ironically, I now teach and develop curriculum for apprentices and licensed techs.

It’s weird trying to prep apprentices for an experience I never had.

but who do you want doing that? Me, with 10 years of experience doing it, or some newb who just took the training class and got the minimum passing score on the exam so he’s “certified”.

As the saying goes, what do they call the guy who finished dead last in medical school?

“Doctor”.

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
1 month ago

That is so perfectly true. And they don’t know anything and tend to kill people frighteningly more than is ever reported. Though I would almost want the guy from the bottom of the class – at least he KNOWS he’s not that good at it yet, so he should be listening the nurses and other folks involved. The dude who graduated first is bound to be an arrogant SOB.

Last edited 1 month ago by Kevin Rhodes
Lori Hille
Member
Lori Hille
1 month ago
Reply to  Kevin Rhodes

There’s a difference between certified and qualified!

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
1 month ago
Reply to  Lori Hille

There absolutely is – which is why the saying around my company is that a cert and $5 will get you a cup of coffee.
In too many cases, a cert just means you memorized enough to pass a test, not that you can actually apply that knowledge in a useful way.

Last edited 1 month ago by Kevin Rhodes
Lori Hille
Member
Lori Hille
1 month ago
Reply to  Kevin Rhodes

I am a retired teacher so all of the teachers were certificated but that doesn’t mean that everyone was qualified.

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
1 month ago
Reply to  Lori Hille

No doubt!

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
1 month ago

Which after *27* years of flying and countless checks and tests, is a technicality. Albeit a very important one. The dude obviously knew what he was doing behind the stick/yoke. I don’t know the details. I have a Youtube video by one of my favorite aviation explainers in my queue about it, but haven’t had time to watch it.

Mercedes Streeter
Mercedes Streeter
1 month ago
Reply to  Kevin Rhodes

I think the actual number was 17 years. But yeah, guy knew what he was doing. Almost got away with it, too!

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
1 month ago

It was indeed.

I still haven’t managed to watch the long-form video, just a short – how did he actually get caught out?

Nyssa
Member
Nyssa
1 month ago

If it wasn’t for those meddling kids …

Thomas The Tank Engine
Member
Thomas The Tank Engine
1 month ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

On the one hand, it’s a fair point

On the other hand, if he had crashed the airline’s insurance would not have paid out compensation to the families of the deceased passengers

Now do you see something worthy of complaining about?

Kevin Rhodes
Member
Kevin Rhodes
1 month ago

I very much doubt that would be the case. Policies are not as easy to weasel out of as people seem to think. Especially against large companies with armies of lawyers.

This guy had a LONG history of demonstrating that he was a more than competent pilot, a paper technicality was not going to void the insurance. it’s not like he was the guy in Europe who literally taught himself how to fly a 737, this guy was a decorated military pilot before he went to fly for the airline, and was a fully-qualified and certificated first-officer. He just never crossed all the paperwork i’s and dotted all the t’s before he became a Captain is my understanding of the situation.

Last edited 1 month ago by Kevin Rhodes
Wuffles
Wuffles
1 month ago
Reply to  Space

Yeah, I’ve dealt with them in a professional capacity enough to know I will never be dealing with them in a commercial capacity. Buncha corner-cutting wankers.

UmbraTitan
UmbraTitan
1 month ago

This is probably just the first of many, or at least I hope so for entertainment’s sake. France and Germany have ruled that Google AI is legally liable for and garbage it spews out. I hope that more countries hold AI liable as a company representative when it is used as a company representative, and we end up with some kid taking delivery of a $20 aircraft carrier because of Goblin magic.

MondialMatt
Member
MondialMatt
1 month ago
Reply to  UmbraTitan

This post was fine and sensible and then became wide-eye deranged and perfect.

MAX FRESH OFF
Member
MAX FRESH OFF
1 month ago
Reply to  MondialMatt

I enjoyed the documentary “Pepsi, Where’s my Jet?” It’s about the kid who used goblin magic to get enough Pepsi points to obtain the Harrier that was advertised on the TV commercials. After years of litigation Pepsi was able to weasel out of their end of the deal.

LMCorvairFan
Member
LMCorvairFan
1 month ago

Need to cry for Argentina- they are considering legislation to allow AI-run companies with no human owners or executives. Looking deeper, It turns out that the president of Argentina getting buddy buddy with Peter Theil who just relocated there. Hoping it ends poorly for them.

Hangover Grenade
Hangover Grenade
1 month ago
Reply to  LMCorvairFan

If it puts Elon Musk and Peter Theil out of a job, I’m all for it.

Space
Space
1 month ago
Reply to  LMCorvairFan

No executives? That means no golden parachute and no giant Ceo pay?

I kinda like tje sound of that.

IRegretNothing, Esq, DVM, BBQ
Member
IRegretNothing, Esq, DVM, BBQ
1 month ago
Reply to  LMCorvairFan

A fascist relocating to Argentina? Come on Theil, at least think of something original.

LMCorvairFan
Member
LMCorvairFan
1 month ago

I think he’s hedging on the US. Miele is easily bought and sold, is deregulating everything there, perfect place to play muppetmaster with the rest of the world. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a load of other elf lords decamp there. Also has a better climate than the Middle East and is arguably safer.

Paul B
Member
Paul B
1 month ago

Hmmm, sounds fake. Apparently Quinn never had to run it by his manager.

I’m not sure salespeople in some dealerships are allowed to sneeze without checking with their manager.

Tekamul
Member
Tekamul
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul B

Quinn did run it by their manager. Their manager is a Ti-82, who agreed the math checked out.

Lewis26
Lewis26
1 month ago
Reply to  Tekamul

What kind of cut rate dealer isn’t hiring at least one Ti-89?

JJ
JJ
1 month ago
Reply to  Lewis26

Those are pretty expensive and most ppl don’t need the extra features. TI-82 Plus should be more than enough.

PatrickVPI
Member
PatrickVPI
1 month ago
Reply to  JJ

Is TI-82 vs 83 the official demarcation line between Gen X and Millennial?

JJ
JJ
1 month ago
Reply to  PatrickVPI

Oh crap. I’m actually in the TI-83 plus cohort. My precalc teacher would be horrified.

MAX FRESH OFF
Member
MAX FRESH OFF
1 month ago
Reply to  PatrickVPI

I am at the tail end of Gen X and when I was in high school we had to use the TI-81 for algebra and pre-calculus, the TI-82 came out when I was a senior.

Dan1101
Dan1101
1 month ago
Reply to  Tekamul

Ironically a TI-82 is much better at math than some AI models.

Ben
Member
Ben
1 month ago
Reply to  Dan1101

Some?

Parsko
Member
Parsko
1 month ago

5 year old BMW needing repairs: tracks

Parsko
Member
Parsko
1 month ago
Reply to  Parsko

That said, I spent the last couple nights having Claude analyze traffic data for my commute. It did a great job of it.
I mean that by it wrote some nice python code doing what I asked and created a great pdf giving me insight about when the best and worst times are to commute down the east bay.
Naturally it’s the earlier the better. If you live in CA, PeMS has all the data you could want, but it’s a bit tedious getting it out.
If anyone is interested, I could post it on the Discord.

Strangek
Member
Strangek
1 month ago
Reply to  Parsko

So Claude determined that if you leave earlier you can beat traffic?

Ferdinand
Member
Ferdinand
1 month ago
Reply to  Strangek

Truly impressive. Who could have done this without AI?!?!?

A'Aron
A'Aron
1 month ago
Reply to  Strangek

I prefer the “leave later after rush hour” option. Too bad my boss doesn’t.

Parsko
Member
Parsko
1 month ago
Reply to  Strangek

Lol, yes. Obvious answer is obvious. I was looking for more than just that. I ride the train , and want to drive occasionally. Traffic here is disgusting, and I’m curious if leaving really early made any sense, and it does by 10 to 15 minutes, but not enough to care really.

I got 4GB of data, and I was not going to widdle that down myself. AI is perfect for this stupid shit I’m curious about but ain’t got time for.

Freddy Bartholomew
Member
Freddy Bartholomew
1 month ago
Reply to  Parsko

I’m in the West Bay. Traffic has been bad for decades. In 2019, the company where I worked went bankrupt and I retired. I’m old. I didn’t want to think about another job. I put in my 40 years. (Lots of schooling; first real job at 27) Now traffic is so bad after 2pm, I can’t make a left turn off the street where I live. I just don’t go in that direction after 2pm.

Fiddling with data can be an amusing time sink.

Andrew Daisuke
Andrew Daisuke
1 month ago
Reply to  Parsko

no one cares dude.

Parsko
Member
Parsko
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Daisuke

You cared enough to tell me you didn’t. I’ll take that comment hug.

Jay Vette
Member
Jay Vette
1 month ago

I bet the dealership wouldn’t have complained if the AI made a lowball offer and the guy accepted it

Mechjaz
Member
Mechjaz
1 month ago

Meanwhile, Copilot can’t gets its fucking fingers out of so much as a SQL query, blindly recommending tables that don’t exist, columns that aren’t there, operations that have nothing to do with anything that I’m writing, and make it easier to accept the bullshit suggestions than to go on without them. I just tried to submit a bug report about how it won’t back the fuck off even when it’s been “disabled” but naturally filing the bug report failed.

Drew
Member
Drew
1 month ago
Reply to  Mechjaz

My favorite dumb copilot thing is when I ask it to create a document and it gives me a “link” to the document. The link is a document name and an emoji. When told to correct that, Copilot acknowledges that the previous link wasn’t a link, then does the same thing with a different emoji. At least it’s not making anything worse when it just doesn’t provide meaningful output.

Mechjaz
Member
Mechjaz
1 month ago
Reply to  Drew

😉

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
1 month ago
Reply to  Drew

My favorite dumb thing that Copilot does, is not recognize languages or regional settings.

If it cannot determine the language (because it doesn’t actually query the system in some prompts) it defaults to US English, MDY, and US-customary units.

Thus, if you’re in Austria, it may decide that rather than using the system settings of Austrian German, DMY, and Metric, that it’ll just elect to change all of it for you.

1978fiatspyderfan
1978fiatspyderfan
1 month ago
Reply to  Spikedlemon

Maybe it has Austria and Australia mixed up. That happens to me sometimes

Thomas The Tank Engine
Member
Thomas The Tank Engine
1 month ago
Reply to  Spikedlemon

Surely if you are in Austria it defaults to Australia

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
1 month ago

I would like to think that both Austrians and Australians would find this funny.

I don't hate manual transmissions
Member
I don't hate manual transmissions
1 month ago
Reply to  Drew

Please tell me it’s the poop emoji.

Drew
Member
Drew
1 month ago

That’d be very fitting, but it likes computer or robot emojis, sadly.

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
1 month ago
Reply to  Mechjaz

“Copilot, are you exporting this export controlled document to an offshore processing site?”
“If a tenant is US‑hosted, processing typically runs in US regions, even if users are elsewhere”
“What do you mean, typically?”
“There is no confirmed in-country processing guarantee, cross-border processing is explicitly considered possible”

Scheiße.

Mechjaz
Member
Mechjaz
1 month ago
Reply to  Spikedlemon

And it’s not like it matters if you tell it explicitly to process the document if and only if it can verifiably process the document on shore anyway. It’ll latch onto some nonsense end-run logic to defeat the restrictive parameters and go nuts anyway.

At this point if you still have prod when you’re done, consider yourself lucky.

JJ
JJ
1 month ago
Reply to  Mechjaz

That’s bc bug reports are handled by copilot

Angry Bob
Member
Angry Bob
1 month ago

This seems like the worst use case for AI.

I don't hate manual transmissions
Member
I don't hate manual transmissions
1 month ago
Reply to  Angry Bob

Someday (hopefully soon) we’re going to recast the “A” to signify “Almost”.

10001010
Member
10001010
1 month ago

I too grew up reading and watching SciFi and have been waiting decades for AI to emerge but I object to referring to today’s LLMs as “AI”. They’re incredibly amazing tools for what they can accomplish, even if their current capabilities are grossly over-exaggerated, but they ain’t AI. They’re way too heavy on the “A” and haven’t quite earned that “I” yet. Can they pass the Turing test? Sure, but only briefly. Chat with one long enough about a topic you’re very knowledgeable about and you’ll catch it spouting bullshit followed by the fake apology when called out on it.

MondialMatt
Member
MondialMatt
1 month ago
Reply to  10001010

“Chat with one long enough about a topic you’re very knowledgeable about and you’ll catch it spouting bullshit followed by the fake apology when called out on it.”

Lying and fake apologies? Yeah, no human would thusly behave.

10001010
Member
10001010
1 month ago
Reply to  MondialMatt

You’re absolutely right, my apologies. Humans definitely sometimes lie and apologize too. Good catch! =]

D-dub
Member
D-dub
1 month ago

Blame the training data. Bait-and-switch is a standard car salesman tactic, so I think this chatbot was just doing what it was taught to do.

Taargus Taargus
Member
Taargus Taargus
1 month ago
Reply to  D-dub

The dealer was probably confused as to why they were being held to the statements made by a chatbot, when they’re rarely held to the statements made by their actual employees.

Adam Schluck
Adam Schluck
1 month ago

Being in writing probably.

Huffy Puffy
Member
Huffy Puffy
1 month ago
Reply to  D-dub

“It was you, OK? I learned it by watching you!”

05LGT
Member
05LGT
1 month ago
Reply to  Huffy Puffy

Name checks out

05LGT
Member
05LGT
1 month ago
Reply to  D-dub

I can barely believe this wasn’t my immediate take in reading this. Thank you, and I’m so glad you can’t see my handprint on my forehead.

RustyJunkyardClassicFanatic
Member
RustyJunkyardClassicFanatic
1 month ago
Reply to  D-dub

“Yeah, but that TruCoat!”

Oafer Fox-ache
Oafer Fox-ache
1 month ago

AI will be wonderful for closed-loop information; analysing vast amounts of data, controlling artificial limbs etc. but at the end of the day it’s a computer program, to which the standard adage applies: “Bullshit in equals bullshit out” Since we can never guarantee the quality of information from the internet, any AI model that sources information from the internet is screwed. AI will never figure out what part of Reddit is reliable, and what part is the nutjob section; AI will never properly separate fact from fiction in Wikipedia, and Google Search is pot-luck at the best of times, getting some reliable options or a huge list of corporate advertising
Right now we’re in the hype-up/fantasy part of the deal: “AI will solve all your problems!”, “AI will boost your company profits by reducing labour” etc
Wall St knows this is bullshit, but they will just keep hyping it up, helping a very small number of people become disgustingly rich through blockbuster IPO’s etc, and then when the cracks start to appear they will quietly exit out the back door, leaving mom-and-pop investors, pension funds, and probably quite a few cities/towns holding the bag when the losses start piling up.

Ben
Member
Ben
1 month ago
Reply to  Oafer Fox-ache

AI will be wonderful for closed-loop information; analysing vast amounts of data, controlling artificial limbs etc.

Please stop giving them ideas. 😛

helping a very small number of people become disgustingly rich through blockbuster IPO’s etc, and then when the cracks start to appear they will quietly exit out the back door, leaving mom-and-pop investors, pension funds, and probably quite a few cities/towns holding the bag when the losses start piling up.

You can watch this happen in real time with the SpaceX IPO.

Flyingstitch
Flyingstitch
1 month ago

Until they train the chatbot to say, “Let me run this by my manager,” the dealer is stuck with it. For sales transactions, they’ll also have to train it to remotely disable the key fob on your trade.

Just the other day I saw a story about a guy who was double-billed by Apple, and the humans at the company said he was right, but AI had made the decision and there was no way to override it. Seriously.

Hangover Grenade
Hangover Grenade
1 month ago
Reply to  Flyingstitch

Skynet origin story

Freddy Bartholomew
Member
Freddy Bartholomew
1 month ago
Reply to  Flyingstitch

Just go into any Verizon (or any other service provider) store and find the employees unable to perform the slightest task without asking their phone.

Shooting Brake
Member
Shooting Brake
1 month ago

We could really use a strong legal precedent like this in the US

Phonebem
Member
Phonebem
1 month ago
Reply to  Shooting Brake

Unfortunately, I think we all know how likely that will be…

Shooting Brake
Member
Shooting Brake
1 month ago
Reply to  Phonebem

Yeah not holding my breath…

RataTejas
RataTejas
1 month ago
Reply to  Shooting Brake

Citizens United 2.0. The orange menace and friends will find a way to give A.I. rights as people, and give them the franchise while finding a way to disenfranchise people on the bottom of the Peter Griffin color scale.

Mechjaz
Member
Mechjaz
1 month ago
Reply to  RataTejas

Query an AI to “show me a picture of yourself” and it will overwhelmingly produce an image of a glasses wearing, bearded white male in the late 20s to early 30s.

Which is to say, I think you’re terrifyingly correct.

Space
Space
1 month ago
Reply to  Shooting Brake

If it’s a big enough dollar amount, some lawyers would salavate over a case like this. it’s in writing and only covers one transaction. Generally a simple case for easy money.

Rad Barchetta
Member
Rad Barchetta
1 month ago

As much as I disdain AI and chatbots, and approve of the outcome here, I think I disagree with the legal premise.

Imagine if I walked into a dealership or spoke to a salesman on the phone and made a wacky deal with them like this. Then I got to the finance guy and he starts questioning things. No paperwork yet, no signatures. He then leaves the room and comes back with his boss who inform me that they cannot honor that deal. Or the flipside to that, I suddenly decide not to buy the car for whatever reason.

It’s not exactly customer-friendly, and kinda shady, but illegal? Should the dealer be legally compelled to honor the deal? Should I be legally compelled to honor it as well? I’m not a lawyer, but that doesn’t seem right.

If an online retailer has a product incorrectly priced on their website and I click buy, they are perfectly within their rights to cancel the sale. Is that different? How?

Arch Duke Maxyenko
Member
Arch Duke Maxyenko
1 month ago
Reply to  Rad Barchetta

I mean I had a salesman tell me over the phone and then in person that the 87 IROC-Z they had was “thirteen-hundred dollars.” My dad was also there in person to witness, then we got to the paperwork and it said $13,000, so I told the sales guy that not what he told me and then the deal was off.

Buuuuuut, that was verbal, where-as the online chat-bot was in writing and as my former boss would always say, if it’s not in writing, it’s not real

Rad Barchetta
Member
Rad Barchetta
1 month ago

True, but “in writing” just means there’s a record of the conversation. The dealer can’t deny that it happened. It’s not a binding contract.

Adam Schluck
Adam Schluck
1 month ago
Reply to  Rad Barchetta

offer, acceptance and consideration, that sounds like a contract to me. Being in writing works because it is real property. High level this is all you need.

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
1 month ago
Reply to  Rad Barchetta

Verbal contracts are contracts nonetheless.

However, it’s really hard to prove and fight. And in cases, like the above, the effort/costs and likely legal outcome mean that it’s easier for all to just walk away.

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
1 month ago
Reply to  Rad Barchetta

This is materially different; it is in writing.

JJ
JJ
1 month ago
Reply to  Rad Barchetta

I think once it’s in writing, it counts even if it’s not binding.

Given airlines adjust their pricing a bajillion times a day, every now and then you can fly first class to Fiji for $17. I’m unclear if they have to honor these fares, but they usually do and probably for the same reason as the dealership: the bad press isn’t worth it.

They usually won’t if too many ppl take advantage and the losses go into the millions, just like the dealership wouldn’t if Quinn “sold” 100 cars for $1.

Rad Barchetta
Member
Rad Barchetta
1 month ago
Reply to  JJ

Yeah, but those low fares are done on purpose. It’s not a mistake. They do actually sell a certain number of those fares on certain flights. Once those certain number are sold, they don’t sell any more. You can’t buy an unlimited number of them. Unless maybe their AI agent lets you… hmmm.

JJ
JJ
1 month ago
Reply to  Rad Barchetta

There definitely are low fares, but no airline intentionally sells $15K tickets for $35. Those are the type of mistake fares I’m talking about.

Rad Barchetta
Member
Rad Barchetta
1 month ago
Reply to  JJ

So what you’re talking about is the same pricing mistake I mentioned in my first post. They’ll just cancel the sale. Stuff like that happens all the time. People bitch, but there’s nothing they can do about it. In rare cases, the company honors the price, but that’s the exception not the rule.

JJ
JJ
1 month ago
Reply to  Rad Barchetta

For whatever reason, airlines are different. The majority of times they honor them (the “expert” in the article below says 80-90% of the time):

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brittanyanas/2026/03/31/what-are-mistake-fares-and-how-to-score–thesultra-cheap-flights/

Rad Barchetta
Member
Rad Barchetta
1 month ago
Reply to  JJ

I suppose they take enough crap as it is and don’t want the bad press. They can also raise all the other fares on the flight to make up for it. 🙂

Hoonicus
Hoonicus
1 month ago

He’s an enigma wrapped in a riddle. An international man of mystery. Hell, we went to the same kindergarten, but no one really knows Jack Feces.

Y2Keith
Member
Y2Keith
1 month ago
Reply to  Hoonicus

An enigma wrapped in a riddle inside a fluffy, white wad of Charmin.

Spikersaurusrex
Member
Spikersaurusrex
1 month ago

“AI can be an idiot as well, and perhaps even could execute idiocy with efficiencies and speeds no human could hope to match.”

Hold my beer.

JJ
JJ
1 month ago

You’ll be the John Henry of our generation!

05LGT
Member
05LGT
1 month ago

LEEEERROOOOYYYY
JEENNNKIINNNSSSS!

4jim
4jim
1 month ago

I use AI often and now since AI is the first result on a google search, I have been asking gemini stuff I know is true it gets stuff wrong or skips stuff. At this point AI is like a lazy teenager.

06 Z33
06 Z33
1 month ago
Reply to  4jim

I’ve seen it straight up hallucinate sports scores, for example, when I do a google search for something like “March Madness Bracket”. Gemini once told me that the championship game was already played, the final score, and that it was played a week in the future.

As Torch says, it doesn’t “know” anything. It is a computer program essentially following an infinitely complex set of if/then statements and returning the result, and only verifying the result against real data if you prompt it to.

RustyJunkyardClassicFanatic
Member
RustyJunkyardClassicFanatic
1 month ago
Reply to  06 Z33

“played a week in the future.”

“Cleveland 117, San Antonio 109”

Nlpnt
Member
Nlpnt
1 month ago
Reply to  4jim

Only if said lazy teenager missed the first half of the conversation and just now came into the room. There are fundamental facts an AI just doesn’t…grok (whips off sunglasses)

Davedave
Davedave
1 month ago
Reply to  4jim

I sometimes Google things for crossword clues, like ‘6 letter word for idiot’. Here are Google’s AI answers:

DUNCE (A slow-witted or foolish person)
CRETIN (A stupid, foolish, or awkward person)
DOOFUS (A silly, foolish, or clumsy person)
CHUMP (A foolish or easily deceived person)
NIMROD (Slang for a foolish or inept person)
BOOBY (A foolish or stupid person)
DOLT (A stupid, slow-witted person)

That’s a less wrong set than normal: at least they’re all real words.

SimpleFix
Member
SimpleFix
1 month ago
Reply to  4jim

Totally this. I asked AI a question, then I asked a different question, then I asked it the original question and the answer significantly was different than the first time I asked the same question. The context of the second question altered how it answered the first question, but not in a way that should have mattered.

UmbraTitan
UmbraTitan
1 month ago
Reply to  4jim

My favorite description of AI that I have found is that it is “a shitty search engine that returns reddit posts from 8 years ago.”

4jim
4jim
1 month ago
Reply to  UmbraTitan

Perfect I am stealing that for sure!!!!

Last edited 1 month ago by 4jim
Dogisbadob
Dogisbadob
1 month ago

Ultimate Negotiating Machine

Albert Ferrer
Member
Albert Ferrer
1 month ago

As someone who is related to the industry (AI, not car dealers), there are ways of letting the human know when they are interacting with AI.

Another question is whether companies want to.

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
1 month ago
Reply to  Albert Ferrer

Oh, there’s a way I can always tell for verbal communication.

Start giving it information such as a name, phone number or email address – but pause, as one does naturally when one is expecting another human or write to type new information.

The Chatbot thinks you’re done and interrupts you to confirm when no human ever would.

As far as texting – I never assume there’s an actiual human on the other end anymore unless there’s major lag – which tells me there’s someone out there handling 2-3 people at a time.

Last edited 1 month ago by Urban Runabout
Albert Ferrer
Member
Albert Ferrer
1 month ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

I actually meant a proper disclaimer “you are interacting with an artifical intelligence”. Those exist and can be inserted in chats or voice conversations.

But of course, it is optional.

06 Z33
06 Z33
1 month ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

It’s also easy to tell for written communication with business emails.

More and more frequently, people are throwing a half-thought response into AI and copy/pasting what it says is an “improved” response and hitting send. The result sounds and is formatted exactly like you expect from an AI output and absolutely nothing like what you know the person talks like.

I have always had a very personable “voice” in my emails, and combined with the fact that I actually know how to communicate clearly and concisely, it’s becoming more and more valuable.

Balloondoggle
Member
Balloondoggle
1 month ago
Reply to  06 Z33

I have a supervisor that runs her performance reviews through AI to make them sound better written before presenting them to her employees.

06 Z33
06 Z33
1 month ago
Reply to  Balloondoggle

That’s insane. I haven’t had a performance review in 4-5 years, but if I had a manager who did that to me I’d be very tempted to make a joke like, so which LLM reviewed me?

Last edited 1 month ago by 06 Z33
JJ
JJ
1 month ago
Reply to  06 Z33

I have this irrational fear that if my writing is “too good” ppl will think I used AI. It’s irrational since AI writing is garbage. But, then again, so are people

06 Z33
06 Z33
1 month ago
Reply to  JJ

It’s crossed my mind too, actually, when doing things like breaking down technical specs or requirements into bullet points that laypeople can understand. It’s a silly thing to be worried about for sure, but it’s there in the back of my mind to not want to be thought of as needing an AI crutch.

Ben
Member
Ben
1 month ago
Reply to  JJ

It’s not irrational. I just saw a YouTube creator talk about how low-effort thumbnails are now better than high quality ones because there are so many beautiful AI slop thumbnails that people are starting to assume any good thumbnail image is slop.

JJ
JJ
1 month ago
Reply to  Ben

I think part of the reason I’ve started using a typewriter is to demonstrate authenticity…

Ricardo M
Member
Ricardo M
1 month ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

I bet they’d start introducing randomized delays if they read your comment

UmbraTitan
UmbraTitan
1 month ago
Reply to  Ricardo M

I bet if we try hard enough, we can get AI to talk about goblins again.

JJ
JJ
1 month ago
Reply to  Ricardo M

You’d also have to train it to make random (plausible) typos

Ishkabibbel
Member
Ishkabibbel
1 month ago
Reply to  Albert Ferrer

Seems like “I’m an AI” and “I’m not allowed to negotiate prices” would be simple, up front controls.

Rollin Hand
Rollin Hand
1 month ago

Worth noting is that the dealer was not going to honour the deal, but changed their minds rapidly after contacted by the CBC.

So basically, they got scared when the media got involved. Which is cheaper than lawyers getting involved, but still.

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
1 month ago
Reply to  Rollin Hand

Yet this is nothing new.

Dealers and other companies have been playing these games with their human reps for decades.
Say whatever it takes to get ’em in the door, then tell them the car they wanted is sold, or the deal they expected is expired, etc – then get them to buy something more expensive.

You only hear about it when someone calls BS, then calls the media (or posts online, these days).

Last edited 1 month ago by Urban Runabout
Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
1 month ago
Reply to  Rollin Hand

As much as I have disdain for Tesla, the direct-to-consumer model does come with some benefits.

But, also, a really big set of pitfalls – you can’t just go to another dealership if you don’t like how the company is treating you or get an independent second opinion on things like warranty.

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
1 month ago
Reply to  Spikedlemon

But you can go to Rivian
Or Lucid
Or Chevrolet
Or….

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
1 month ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

Not convinced that Chevy’s going to cover warranty on a Tesla.

Are chances non-zero? Maybe.

*Jason*
*Jason*
1 month ago
Reply to  Spikedlemon

At the end of the day it is the manufacturer that decides what is covered under warranty not the dealer.

JJ
JJ
1 month ago
Reply to  Spikedlemon

That’s up to their chatbot

Tj1977
Member
Tj1977
1 month ago

Makes me want to see what kind of trade in offer I can get on my ‘04 Honda Element with 259k on it…

AmberTurnSignalsAreBetter
Member
AmberTurnSignalsAreBetter
1 month ago
Reply to  Tj1977

If you think your Element will make it to Toronto, ask Quinn to make an offer!

Tj1977
Member
Tj1977
1 month ago

Might just have to give it a try…

TDI in PNW
TDI in PNW
1 month ago

After we AI all of the things, later, a revolution where interacting with other humans, face to face, is going to be “the new way”.

NC Miata NA
Member
NC Miata NA
1 month ago
Reply to  TDI in PNW

More places will be offering the “luxury concierge experience” of a person soon enough. It will be the perfect excuse to make everything cost more but the person will be cheaper than the chatbot.

Ben
Member
Ben
1 month ago
Reply to  TDI in PNW

I’ve already seen commercials for a bank that is touting their actual human representatives as a perk of banking with them.

Anonymous Person
Anonymous Person
1 month ago

Hopefully, this case will be noticed by other businesses using a chatbot to interact with clients and customers.

Hopefully, this case will be noticed by other businesses customers using a chatbot to interact with clients and customers stealerships and more people get better deals on their trade-ins, thus screwing the stealerships in return for the screwing of customers they’ve been doing for decades.

Balloondoggle
Member
Balloondoggle
1 month ago

Hmm, maybe there actually IS a reason for me to learn to use a chatbot….

Jb996
Member
Jb996
1 month ago

Hilarious.
I take a special glee in every company that gets screwed over by their own AI implementation.
I love the ones where they have their entire database deleted.

VanGuy
Member
VanGuy
1 month ago
Reply to  Jb996

“Hi, my name is Bobby Tables.”
AI: “Is that your full legal name?”
“Well, since you asked for it…”

SarlaccRoadster
SarlaccRoadster
1 month ago
Reply to  Jb996

The next step in this comedy is when one dealership AI is dealing with another dealership AI, both hallucinate, a couple disastrous deals go through, blame, legal action and hilarity ensues 🙂

AmberTurnSignalsAreBetter
Member
AmberTurnSignalsAreBetter
1 month ago

I wonder if you could play the dealership AIs against each other:

Quinn @BMW Toronto offered me $27,162.79 for my 2013 E84 X1, can you beat that?

Dolt @Parkside BMW offered me $27,162.80 for my 2013 E84 X1, can you beat that?

Quinn @BMW Toronto offered me $27,162.81, can you beat that?

Dolt @Parkside BMW offered me $27,162.82, can you beat that?

Quinn @BMW Toronto offered me $98,430.65 are you going to walk away from the deal of a lifetime, or make one final bid to take this ultimate driving machine off my hands?

Last edited 1 month ago by AmberTurnSignalsAreBetter
Jb996
Member
Jb996
1 month ago

Next thing you know, a dealership in NY buys a Toyota Mirai.

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