There’s a way to view the auto industry as a group of companies that got high on the profit margins provided by the pandemic, dumped too much money into EVs, and pissed off suppliers, dealers, and customers when the market snapped back to inflation. That’s also not at terrible way to view what happened at Harley-Davidson.
The Morning Dump is normally focused on the news from manufacturers of four-wheeled vehicles, but we (Mercedes) write about bikes frequently enough that it’s worth talking about what’s happening in Harley. There’s a new CEO and his game plan sounds not dissimilar from what a lot of younger automotive execs are trying execute.
Alpina, now wholly owned by BMW, is going in the opposite direction. Can that brand fill the space between normally-priced BMWs and Rolls-Royces? I wonder what Dr. Z thinks about it. Actually, Dr. Z is off focused on something else. Batteries! And while I’m talking about batteries, I think LFP is an under-discussed topic.
Can The Top Golf Guy Save Harley?
It always amuses me when I see press photos from Harley-Davidson, which seem to be dominated by young and attractive people on giant cruisers and touring bikes. Charitably, those are not the people you generally see riding Harleys.
The previous CEO of the company, Jochen Zeitz, was focused on high margin vehicles and squeezing what could be squeezed out of its biggest, most expensive bikes. As with Stellantis, this strategy works until it doesn’t, and sales nose-dived. Zeitz was replaced with a guy who couldn’t even ride a bike named Artie Starrs, who came over from Top Golf of all places.
Is that crazy? Sometimes you need an outsider, and a guy who made the geriatric sport of golf suddenly more interesting to young people is maybe not the worst choice. His plan is basically the inverse of what Zeitz did, as Starrs told The Wall Street Journal:
Starrs said Harley is going to bring back the Sportster, an entry-level bike the company stopped making in 2022 after concluding its air-cooled engine wouldn’t meet European environmental regulations.
The new model has conquered that issue, Starrs said, without offering specifics. The bike will sell for about $10,000, on par with the least expensive motorcycle Harley now makes, and have an 883 cubic-centimeter engine.
The bike will be available globally and will go on sale next year. Sportsters for the U.S. market will be made at the company’s York, Pa., factory, Starrs said.
“Our riders want it, which means our dealers want it, which is why we’re so passionate about bringing it back,” Starrs said.
Where, exactly, that bike will be built is an open question given tariffs.
As with car dealers, Harley dealers don’t exactly love being saddled with huge amounts of inventory. As part of its plan to retrench ahead of a new broader strategy, the company has been trying to shed bikes via heavy discounting, which has increased sales at the cost of profits, as Bloomberg reports:
Harley reported adjusted earnings of 22 cents per share, below the 35-cent average analyst estimate and down from $1.07 a year ago, the company said Tuesday in a statement. But global retail sales climbed 8% to 33,500 motorcycles, powered by a 14% increase in the key North American market, where sales of its heavyweight Touring bikes were strong.
“What we committed to we achieved and then some as it relates to rightsizing the inventory levels at dealerships,” Chief Executive Officer Artie Starrs said in a telephone interview. “It sets us up well as we chart the path forward.”
The forever challenge of motorcycles seems to be that the appeal is strongest amongst young people who have less money to spend, and much older people who have more money than time.
One of our most popular stories this week was about a Harley Sportster-like Chinese bike, so clearly some people care about bikes.
Alpina Is Going After AMG With Pricier Models
The BMW takeover of Alpina is complete, and the fruits of that acquisition are soon to be revealed. The once-independent BMW tuner has built some incredible cars, including one of the best three-row SUVs you’re gonna ever drive.
What’s the plan going forward? According to this Manager Magazin article, it’s profits:
The foundation for this will initially be BMW’s 7 Series sedan and the flagship X7 SUV. Both models will receive a lavish refinement – meaning they will be customized as individually as possible, for example with naturally tanned Lavalina leather and 20-spoke wheels. Alpina is to be positioned as BMW’s luxury brand. “This fills a gap in our portfolio,” says one of those involved.
Currently, BMW’s vehicle lineup already ranges from motorcycles and Mini Coopers to bestsellers like the 3 Series and up to handcrafted luxury cars. However, BMW strategists see room for expansion between the 7 Series, offered from €120,000, and the ultra-luxurious, custom-built models from its British subsidiary Rolls-Royce, which quickly exceed €350,000.
It’s probably worth mentioning that Mercedes tried this back in the Dieter Zetsche (Dr. Z) days with Maybach and it didn’t quite work. Mercedes retooled Maybach as just a more expensive Mercedes trim and that seems to be a more successful strategy, and maybe what Alpina is going to be used for.
Dr. Z Has A New Gig
I am old enough that then-DaimlerChrysler CEO Dieter Zetsche served me a beer at an abandoned firehouse in Detroit. If that sentence doesn’t make sense to you, it’s fine. The aughts were wild.
Since leaving Daimler, Zetsche hasn’t been in the news as much, but he’s apparently been working with startup solid-state battery company Factorial, and has now joined the board.
Factorial plans to go public by mid-2026 through a merger with Cartesian Growth Corp. III, a special purpose acquisition company (SPAC), that values the battery startup at $1.1 billion to $1.5 billion. The IPO “could be any moment now,” Factorial CEO Siyu Huang told Automotive News Europe.
Zetsche’s appointment comes as Factorial scales production of its SSB technology. Factorial partners with major automakers, including Mercedes and Stellantis. It also is working with California-based Karma Automotive, which will use Factorial’s SSBs in the Kaveya coupe that is set to go into production in late 2027.
Factorial says its batteries weigh less, charge faster and offer longer driving ranges than traditional lithium ion batteries.
A SPAC? That always goes well!
Europe Is Trying To Fix Its Battery Problem
Here’s a chart:
As you can see, Europe still gets a lot of its battery cells from places that are not Europe (China, mostly), and this is especially an issue when it comes to LFP batteries.
The whole European battery adventure has been a bit of a disaster. The continent’s automakers and governments put a lot of emphasis on one company, Northvolt, which absolutely fell apart. Outside of China, the EU represents the biggest and wealthiest market for EVs, and that gives officials there the opportunity to use sourcing requirements to kickstart more local development.
Specifically, the proposed Industrial Accelerator Act could help the continent recover from the Northvolt collapse, as S&P Global points out:
A quick look at the EU Industrial Accelerator Act proposals reveal striking parallels with mainland China’s historical playbook for the battery sector to achieve global dominance—particularly local content requirements, fast-track permitting for strategic projects and stringent FDI mandates. Whether these clauses will deliver comparable success for Europe or merely impose costly protectionism remains to be seen, given the region’s higher baseline costs and fragmented execution.
A bigger issue might be chemistry, though:
Currently, around 50% of the cells equipped in EVs manufactured in Europe are produced locally. The share is much lower for LFP/LMFP cells compared with the nickel-based ternary cells. With efforts to localize more of the battery supply chain, there is also a growing focus on building up cathode active material (CAM) capacity within the region. S&P Global Mobility forecasts that local production will overtake CAM imports in the region by 2027.
Lithium manganese iron phosphate (LMFP) cell production is also projected to experience a dramatic increase. This represents a significant shift, indicating a growing preference for LFP due to its cost-effectiveness and safety advantages. However, most CAM projects in Europe are for nickel cobalt manganese (NCM), and there have been only a few lithium iron phosphate (LFP) CAM projects announced so far.
I think you’re going to see a lot more LFP batteries, which are cheaper and safer, if not quite as quick-charging or energy dense. That’s what Ford is using for its UEV projects. The big test of the IAA, if implemented, is if we see more LFP projects.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
What better way to celebrate Cinco de Mayo than with a Tex-Mex punk band from San Antonio. It’s Piñata Protest with “Aqui Nomas,” Hell yeah.
The Big Question
Two wheels bad or two wheels good?
Top photo: Harley-Davidson
So Harley is going to do a 180° back to Levatich’s strategy?
That’s how I read the news. I wonder how Levatich feels about that? Apparently, there’s a whole new “RIDE” initiative that Harley wants to launch for this. There’s only been a vague teaser video for now (hence why I didn’t cover it yet). I have to imagine we’ll get real details soon.
I think the failure of Livewire was Levatich’s albatross that got him canned not necessarily the new gas powered models..
IMHO, the Livewire was too early. The charging infrastructure isn’t well built out in rural areas, battery tech was too expensive, slow charging and not power dense enough. The result was a very expensive motorcycle with limited range. My usual Sunday ride was 190 miles and that would almost drain the tank on the NC700X I used to ride. I couldn’t do that on a Livewire without stopping to charge at least once. There are no reliable chargers on that route because of how rural it is.
The Livewire was aimed at the wrong market. EV tech is not there yet to replicate the weekend ride of a couple hundred miles. Electric motorcycles should be aimed at urban commuting. Small battery, short range, cheap and easy to use.
The Livewire was a fun bike to ride and proved to me that Harley can make a bike that handles if they want too.
Which was a part of Levatich’s initiative to change Harley-Davidson…
Most reporting I’ve read on the subject more or less points to the fact that Levatich’s plan wasn’t really paying off in the short term, which was made worse by the total bungling of the Livewire. I mean, More Roads had this grand idea of getting people into bikes, teaching them how to ride, and then selling them a Harley.
Yes, All Roads had a plan to create riders – in the USA – because the number of people riding in the USA is in decline. Their Rider Academy taught on small Harley’s was part of that plan and one that was kept. Then those newly minted riders come out of the Academy and the smallest and cheapest bike Harley has to offer is a 975cc Nightster. Harley still doesn’t understand that new and young riders need smaller and cheaper options.
I’d say a bigger piece of All Roads was growing Harley’s international sales so they were 50% of total sales. The goal for the USA was stability and to stop the decline. Levatich understood that to grow the company Harley needed to target countries were motorcycling and populations are growing. To do that he needed new products to fit those markets like the X350, X440, and X500. Then there were the Revolution models specifically targeted at Europe where riders don’t have a preconceived notion that all Harleys must be a cruiser with a 45 degree air cooled twin, low seat, and minimal rear suspension travel.
Zeitz threw all how of stability in the USA and growth in other markets away basically reducing focus to Harley’s core big twin models. I still think he was hoping to boost the financials in preparation for a private equity company to take Harley private – similar to what just happened with Indian.
I was just having an argument with a long time friend and riding buddy. His group of friends all rides Harley, while he is the only Harley rider in my circle of rider friends- and that’s not to say we are sport bike riders; touring and adv mostly. He kept saying that Harley needs to ‘get back to it’s roots!’ He could not be convinced that the roots were rotten, feeding on the retirees, and that the younger riders were looking at dirt/adv models with engines smaller than anything Harley offers.
*Shrug*
He’s the only under 40 person I know who rides a Harley.
But then again, I am only in my early 30s and ride a Goldwing.
Harley’s “roots’ are back when when they sold a full line of motorcycles from minibikes to tourers and competed in international racing – and actually won.
They also sold a Sportster that was sporty – at least for the time.
This is how corporate America works. One guy comes in and changes everything. Then the new guy comes in and changes it back. I’ve been with my employer for 26 years and 4 CEO’s. Every time a new CEO comes in, we flip flop back to a previous operating model.
That’s how the federal government works too.
Not just on the managerial level. Design is like this as well. It is fun watching the history of various car models and how they change over time. One year everything goes round – round lights, dials, surface details, then at the mid-cycle refresh, they change it up to all squares – square lights, dials, surface details. Then with the upcoming full redesign, they go back to round shapes again.
Higher education works in a similar way, but instead of CEOs it’s college presidents and EVPs. The EVPs especially like to leave their mark as their goal is to be a president at their next stop.
True, though sometimes it’s a matter of timing and the earlier plan was just premature for the business/product environment. That may be the case here. I just hope the new guy takes better care of their dealers because everything I’ve read says that they put unreasonable demands on them, including large real estate expenditures, and left them holding the bag- especially by cutting them out by pushing product online. Yes, selling online is SOP these days but they should’ve had the foresight to not put large demands on dealers before cutting them out by pushing online products directly to consumers. The online shift is especially bad for HD dealers because HD is similar to Ferrari in that they make more or at least a high percentage of their money off of branded and licensed merchandise- rather than just their vehicles. For every bike they sell, they likely sell 5-10 accessories (if not more) to go along with it, especially clothing.
BTW, there is gigantic HD dealership that you can see from 95 a little north of Richmond,VA that always has a giant empty parking lot when I’ve driven by it. If that location was pushed for by corporate and it is indicative of what the dealers are experiencing, things are bad with a capital B and they got screwed!
>BTW, there is gigantic HD dealership that you can see from 95 a little north of Richmond,VA that always has a giant empty parking lot when I’ve driven by it. If that location was pushed for by corporate and it is indicative of what the dealers are experiencing, things are bad with a capital B and they got screwed!
That area also had a decades-old sporting goods store called Green Top. Gander Mountain built a giant store just south of it. Fast-forward 2 years and Gander Mountain was out of business and Green Top, which was in a mismash of old buildings, moved into the Gander Mountain store and they are thriving there.
Indeed, Green Top is hands-down my favorite outdoor sporting goods nationally and I always go there when I’m in the area! Thanks for the recommendation anyway. They have an extremely knowledgeable staff that has been there forever and it’s still privately held. The thing I love about it is their product lines vary from mainstream(Carhartt) all the way up to Sims, Filson(including bags), and they may still have Barbour. Those are typically split into different stores in the South. If you like double guns, they always a good selection of older SxSs and O/Us, including LC, Parker, and even the occasional 9-pin or British side-lock(H&H, Purdey). BTW, they also have one of the best action mounts I’ve ever seen that is a suspended alligator chasing a beaver. I think it’s hidden in the Conf room now.
Maybe. Just bring back the ancient 883 is not / was not Levatich’s plant. He added the X350, X440, X500, and planned for a whole family of Revolution models in new market segments.
I was more oversimplifying Levatich’s “More Roads” strategy, in that he sought to grow the customer base by offering more models, a lot of which were entry level and/or more affordable. Zeitz conversely was a 180° to this, in that he brought HD back to their core customer and was willing to sacrifice volume for margins.
The X bikes weren’t bad ideas, but they were poorly executed. The only real unique Revolution (I’m implying the PA) we got has pretty dang good execution, but Zeitz has let it wither.
Heck, I’d even say the LiveWire was a good execution, but probably a bad idea. But we know this because of hindsight, and looking back 10 years ago, people were iffy about it, but electric motorcycles seemed a lot more promising.
How are the current X350 and X500 poorly executed? They seem to be well received in the markets they are sold.
Why get an X500 when you can get the same exact bike as a Benelli Leoncino 500 for less. That’s why.
Part of the reason why bikes like the Triumph’s 400s are so well received, is because they aren’t just rebadged Chinese or Indian offerings.
The average customer doesn’t know that Benelli and Leoncino exist. Even if they did some are willing to pay for for styling, brand, and dealer access.
All of the European bikes made in India have a Indian JV version
There aren’t direct copies but they are highly related just like the KTM / CFMoto bikes coming out of China.
Same thing happens in China
Where the X500 is sold, a lot of them do. Maybe not in the US, but elsewhere where it’s easy to get loads of Chinese and Indian bikes, they are certainly aware of Chinese and Indian offerings.
None of your comparisons are anything like the HD/Benelli badge engineering. It’s like saying the Saab 9000 and Lancia Thema was the same situation as the GM J-Body based Cavalier/Cimarron/Firenza…
We (at least I) was talking about what Harley needs in the USA to diversify their lineup and bring in some new riders.
Looking at Asian markets, yes, customers know about Chinese brands but that doesn’t mean the Harley doesn’t sell. They sell even at a 40% markup over the Benelli. If Harley wanted to sell more they could drop the price – maybe a 10- 15% premium for that Harley look.
The Benelli and Harley share the chassis and engine. The bodywork is completely different.
I concur that they need to expand and offer smaller less expensive bikes. That doesn’t mean they can’t be cool looking as well. Royal Enfield has been doing well with that biz model for years and Honda has continued to sell plenty of the smaller HD knock-off Rebels here, and have been doing it for decades.
While I personally would like to see Harley bring a standard like the X500 to the USA I think something a bit more retro like the Royal Enfield Bullet 350 would sell better.
Unfortunately it looks like the USA is getting the X440 that is sold in India. Air cooled, single cylinder, 27 hp, 430 pounds. It is basically a motorcycle designed to fail in the USA.
I’m with you 100%, it can’t just be any smaller engine. It needs to be modern, perform well, or even fight above it’s weight. The Britain of my youth always had fantastic looking smaller displacement bikes that often punched above their weight; though they were mostly sport bikes. I actually saw a mint 80s Kenny Roberts 350 in Nashville a few years ago and felt like I was 15 in Britain again.
HD could even make cool Bubba Shubert dirt track-inspired scramblers that have a Road Warrior-looking version. Use the old track highlights in the ads and commercials to establish pedigree and end with the new retro-inspired models. If they could get PP in the next Road Warrior movie(I’m hope they’re coming) and pay Charlize, Tom, or Anya to do a commercial, that would definitely change the script and move product.to new demos.
I can see the 883 coming back as a gap filler.
It is mostly sorted after around 70 years.
The Euro5 emissions were just an excuse.
The Motor Company will have to sharpen it’s sword to fit in between Japan, China and maybe India, they have to realize that a 900lb cruiser/tourer isn’t every motorcyclist’s dream.
To me the Revolution models could be there, but they have to get rid of the “Marx Sound of Power” plastic detailing and some stupid design choices.
The adjustable ride height option will win riders if spread across the range, they Own that lead.
I don’t know that I see a reason to do any of this. the Nightster is already a buck under 10K, for a 900. the motor actually finally provides sporty power, though an Indian FTR is still better, so Why not plop some chrome on it and call it a sportster if that name matters in some way.
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/nightster.html
That’s the thing that has me scratching my head about a low-buck Sportster revival. Harley already has a $10k bike. I’d get it if Harley said it wants to make a new bike that’s not much more than the price of a Royal Enfield 650.
There were talks of a Baby Harley from India. 338R or X350, or I think even a shrunken FXR or something. they all went away after the 750 and 500 street bikes flopped in the US. I think they are interesting and I could certainly see the benefit of a 300CC bike with say a decent CVT for beginner riders. But it would have to be under the Grohm as far as pricing and have a huge warranty to avoid quality concerns.
The Nightster needs a higher seat and 5 inches of suspension travel. The Scout and Sportster have the same problem so bringing back the 833 isn’t going to help.
I would certainly rather have the XR1200 and XR883 come back personally, but the thing about Sporty’s is they have been id’d as bike for Females by a bunch of riders. and so the low seat height is in relation to the targeted rider at this point.
I always though the Yamaha 650 Star cruiser was kind of perfect as it was more of a 3/4 scale soft tail in design and very easy to ride regardless of inseam. but many just shunned them too. Bikes are toys for the majority in the US and thus it is difficult to really tell where the desires will go one day to the next.
There is low seat height and then there is Harley low. Plenty of women and shorter men ride standard and sport bikes.
Personally I would like to see Harley offer an optional higher tractor seat like their bikes used to have in the 50’s with a lot of space under it.
https://ogden_images.s3.amazonaws.com/www.motorcycleclassics.com/images/2022/04/29162036/1956-Harley-FL-1100×822.jpg
The problem (for me at least) with the XR1200 and XR883 was the engine. It is simply antiquated and was in need of an update. Harley has done that now with the Revolution engine and I see no reason to take a step back.
A 975cc standard like the XR1200 would be the Bronx. A bike that we were going to get before the last CEO killed it.
they made them. in 2024, part of the icons collection, the Highway King was pretty interesting, though it kind of ruined the barcolounger set up for the passenger, so I feel like this was never a comeback type bike as much as a low volume oddity that used a few select accessories that were made to bolt on in place of standard stuff. https://www.harley-davidson.com/ctfasset/5vy1mse9fkav/5xKlHnpGpZfM7e0d8y4KmL/c9f0331e02e004c3584160232137284d/eghk-mc?impolicy=myresize&rw=960
But the real question is, do young people even want Harleys anymore?
I think the real question is do the old guys that still ride want a harley anymore? BMW R18 is pretty nice and cheaper than a comparable Harley, Indian Styling is pretty hot right now. even a used Triumph Rocket 3 cruiser style unit or a Kawasaki Vaquero is hard to not look at when the Harley’s are starting at 30K in most cases.
Two wheels not bad, but I am more a fan of the mechanical contraption side of things rather than the act of riding them.
I all for ecology and reducing reliance as a European. But Europe certainly seems ill suited to be a BEV?
I hope they re-use ‘All Roads Lead to Harley’.
2 wheels good. A car with the same power-to-weight can be faster due to more rubber on the ground but a motorbike is a more engaging experience. And if speed isn’t the metric I think cruising on a bike can be better too. Arriving in our R107 is nice, but the Triumph Scrambler is usually more fun.
The arithmetic changes a bit depending on environment. Hot and humid? I will take 4 wheels to avoid extra clothing. Are all roads paved and without curves? Take neither and let the robot cars drive me.
My favorite two-wheeled things are mountain bikes. Fast enough (downhill) to be thrilling, but much less of a chance of getting flattened by something on 4 wheels.
Two wheels bad or two wheels good?
Depends on the application.
I think 2 wheeled ATVs (Rokon Trailbreaker and UBCO 2×2) are much better than 3 wheeled and 4 Wheeled ATVs. Depending on the UTV they can be more capable as well (2000lbs of towing with the Rokon).
I think for driving fast off road it’s hard to beat a dirtbike with anything, but especially not 3 wheeled and 4 wheeled ATVs.
Just about anything can be a dirtbike trail.
Only thing 2 wheels don’t do well in are slick conditions and or conditions you wouldn’t want to drive in exposed to the elements.
I loved the 35 years I rode motorcycles everywhere from Asia to the Autobahn. I opted out about 15 years ago after getting tagged for the fourth time in less than a year. Those were the only times I was ever hit in all those tears of riding and I took it as a sign. Drivers were more stupid and my reflexes were no longer up to the challenge of avoiding them. There are probably many places I could still be riding in relative safety and enjoyment, but the southeast US isn’t among them. Two wheels are still good, but it pays to pick your place of residence with riding in mind.
I took the MSF course back in 2019 simply because I was bored. I didn’t have a ton of interest in bikes at that point.
Fast forward to today and I’ve owned 11 and counting. This past weekend I was scraping my knee on my Kawasaki ZX4-RR at Nelson Ledges. My ’96 GSX-R 750 is getting an engine rebuild at a local specialist and should hopefully be finished before the summer. I’ve got a half-built Honda CB1000 that I got for free in my garage. So I would say two wheels definitely good in my situation
I’ve only ever owned Japanese bikes, and the list of non-Japanese bikes I want can be counted on one hand. (It’s pretty much just the Cagiva Mito Evo II) Harleys are the antithesis of what I find interesting about motorcycles. And yet, if they made a naked sportbike with the sportster engine, I would be all over that! For some inconceivable reason, and despite everything they’ve ever done prior, I want Harley to succeed in making something other than a cruiser.
So back to Levitch’s “All Roads” plan where Harley was going to grow but the model lineup and global sales instead of retreating to just the sale of heavy cruisers in the USA?
The models are already there for Starrs to add low priced models as they are sold in other parts of the world today. Harley has a 350, 440, and 500. The liquid cooled 350 / 500 are a natural fit for the US market. Made in Thailand so the cost is low. They at the equivalent of $6,000 to $8,000 USD in Australia and that is out the door pricing with taxes not MSRP.
The ironic thing is that Harley already imports the 350 to use in their riding schools and then won’t sell it to them.
As to bringing back the Sportster – that does nothing to give Harley an entry level bike. They already have the $9,999 Nightster. It is the model that replaced the Sportster and is better in any objective way. The only failing is that the engine is not an anemic 45 degree, air-cooled V-twin.
Which gets us back to Harley’s problem. Their current customer base does not want a modern bike. The failure of the V-Rod and new liquid cooled Revolution models shows this. When they try the dealers revolt.
They also refuse to realistically pursue conquest customers because they refuse to competitively price their expansion products. They put out a middling spec bike, price it at the top of the class, and then wonder why someone buys a Japanese or European brand instead. A conquest customer isn’t going to pay extra for the Harley brand and isn’t looking for a “lifestyle”.
A X350 priced like a Triumph 400 or Honda Rebel 300 would sell. A X500 priced like a Honda CB500 or Kawasaki Z400 would sell.
I’m not into bikes, but I thought the V-Rod was great. That’s the only HD I’d even consider owning, and I’d remove all the HD branding if I did.
Nice to see there’s an industry equivalent to running into your ex at the bar.
Two wheels are great for lots of things from 5 year-olds riding to preschool to highways and offroad. Maybe Harley should really go after the younger generations, and start selling goofy looking e-bikes to 12 year olds to terrorize the neighborhood. Start them young, and it would even be legal(ish?) unlike the tobacco industry’s efforts.
They did that with Livewire selling a powered balance bike when they bought StaCycle. The problem was they marked them WAY up with the Harley tax.
While I grant that the battery industry has essentially bet the farm on Li chemistries, I think that kind of tunnel vision is really going to be a problem. Vehicle batteries are only one market that they could be pursuing. I’ve been looking into getting a battery system for my house, and I’d really rather have a sodium-ion pack, since they’re so much more temperature stable, and could just be plopped in an enclosure on an AC pad next to the house, rather than having to find wall space inside to hang lithium batteries that need stable temps and active thermal management.
Also, i agree that a SPAC is *always* such a good indicator that a company totally isn’t bullshit and can succeed without financial sleight-of-hand. Sigh. They’ll probably go the way of Northvolt.
HD definitely still has a market with a certain demographic, and while that demo is shrinking and aging, they’re extremely vocal about everything and love to gatekeep, which helps keep many younger people from wanting to get one. Plus the dealer experience is, in my opinion, garbage. Despite being a white, middle-aged man with extra income, I have yet to have a good experience in a Harley dealership. Even when I had a product sold, and ostensibly supported by, HD, I got treated like they were doing me a favor to take my money and make me wait weeks to get parts.
I’m much more likely to get another Triumph or a Royal Enfield.
I took my Triumph in for an inspection as they’re one of the only places in our town. Unsurprisingly I was immediately asked if I wanted to trade it in on a REAL BIKE.
I said I’d like to ride my Shovelhead more, do you guys work on them? Nope. Anything over 5 years old we don’t really touch. FOH, douchebags.
Same here. Years ago I went in to look at a Buell and the salesman basically laughed at me and asked why I wasn’t looking at a “real” bike.
A few year ago I test rode a Livewire and had other Harley customer hanging around the dealership heckle me.
I rent frequently from EagleRider which is now partially owned by Harley and mostly based in Harley dealerships. When I pick up a bike I get negative comments about wearing riding gear.
Seems if you aren’t interested in the “lifestyle” you aren’t welcome.
I had a Buell, and got scoffed at when I wanted to buy a gasket. None of the OKC-area dealers would even look at the bike, I had to ride an hour away up to Stillwater if I wanted someone to run the diagnostic software.
Tesla and Powerwall competitors package cells they can find in volume. You mentioned one interesting battery chemistry (sodium titanate), and another is lithium titanate. Both work well in certain use cases, but are not manufactured in large volume.
Tesla Powerwall and EG4 would pivot in a minute to different chemistry cells if they could buy them in volume, by which I mean less costly than LiFePo.
EG4, and perhaps others, offer Powerwall equivalent outdoor-rated devices that can discharge at temperatures from -4°F to 130°F. Unless the application is pretty far up north (or south I suppose), that range is enough for most of us.
Problem is, nobody is investing significantly in chemistries that aren’t already in mass production. Reading the trade pubs, I see lots of promising small research from poorly funded labs and small companies, but the bulk of investment is in the big players who aren’t spending on R&D for new battery chemistries. I have friends working startup companies doing very cool and innovative things to bring down costs and develop new grid-scale energy storage tech, but they can’t get any kind of funding from either industry or government. It’s very frustrating.
Wow, that’s unexcusable for the dealership to treat you that way. For what it’s worth, I’ve had the opposite experience at the HD dealership. Walked in, they asked what we were looking for. We were looking for something like a sportster, so they grabbed the keys and a helmet and said, “Take it for a spin and see if it fits.” I’ve never been to another dealership that did that. Now this was probably 15 years ago, but it still sticks in my memory.
That’s the experience I’ve had at the local Indian dealership (RIP). HD, not so much.
When I read about HD repeatedly on the brink of failing I am reminded of the constant Trump Supporter in a Diner interviews the NYTimes constantly pukes out. Same vibes to me.
Harley hasn’t been on the brink of failure for about 40 years. They are selling fewer bikes. That was the last CEO’s intention. Less bikes but at higher margins. Not a long term plan.
My immediate thought when Zietz came in is that he was prepping Harley for sale.
As with most things, this is going to depend. If your SUV has two wheels, it’s a problem. If your motorcycle does, it’s good.
In a more serious answer: it still depends. A Harley Sportster is going to have to offer more than just the brand. Royal Enfield offers some really cool bikes without ridiculous price tags. And the Harley brand is both a strength and weakness. For some people, it’s HD or no bike. For others, HD is going to be low on the list to consider.
I probably wouldn’t be in a HD showroom. There are other brands that I tend to prefer for a number of reasons. But I wouldn’t rule them out if they offered something I want.
HD reminds me a lot of Ford – focus on short term profit, and then get caught out without something to offer when the good times end.
I’m rooting for it though, even as rider who watched it ignominiously end my beloved Buell. The old HD XR1200, just offered in a smaller displacement, cheaper form could be a good starting point.
I mentioned to a HD guy who airbrushed erotic art on his HD that I liked the Sportster and he railed on me for a while for even looking at “chick bikes” HD has a image and customer problem.
Yeah, they definitely have a longtime issue with that, and I don’t know how they can recover. Especially since they don’t want to alienate those customers, even if those customers alienate everyone else.
Yeah, Harley culture is one of those groups that tends to eat their own rather than welcome people into the group. “Hey, we’re a dying breed, so let’s exclude people who would otherwise be interested using an artificial purity test!!” Not sure I understand it.
From experience I get the frustration of a 3 gallon tank (both having owned a bike with one and ridden a larger bike in a group with 3 gallon bikes), although I don’t agree it’s as bad as some make it out to be. And that’s really only the long haulers that have that problem.
Wave at a non-Harley? Never.
Perhaps HD should merge with Stellantis.
Seems a common theme with hemi vs. hurricane.
As a recent Hurricane owner, I can say I see a LOT of posts by people who previously had Hemi’s and much prefer the Hurricane.
There will always be the “V8 is ‘Murican!” crowd, but the Hurricane is winning over a lot of owners.
This. I used to have some friends that were into bikes, they all made fun of Sportsters, saying they should come with training wheels, etc.
Even if I were into bikes, I’d have zero interest in that brand. The only Harley I ever liked was the one Harley guys hated, the V-Rod.
Two Wheels good. Problem is that the 4 wheel people no longer look for 2 wheels so 2 wheels fun but unsafe.
That’s why I stopped riding motorcycles and bicycles in traffic. Too many cagers were oblivious to those on two wheels and it was getting worse every year.
This. I am on a rural two lane road, but Jimbo in his clapped-out OBS F150 (sans exhaust) started drinking at noon and needs to get home before his wife. I’ve been nearly flattened twice.
Luckily I’ve made pretty good friends that are riders (harley dudes, even), otherwise I was ready to hang up my helmet forever.
I do see a lot more younger riders on ADV bikes and, as ever, sport bikes, with cruiser riders tending to be middle aged or older and, perhaps more importantly, blue collar. Not that there aren’t younger riders on cruisers, though. I am encouraged that most younger riders wear full safety gear no matter what they ride. But the only thing “safety” a lot of the noisier bikers ride with is safety orange or hi-liter green work shirts.
A cheaper Harley should sell a few examples so long as the blue collar crowd can put an ear-splittingly loud muffler on it so they can continue the tradition of giving the auditory finger to everyone else. That might hurt sales to less confrontational folks. Which, really, is Harley’s biggest problem.
There’s some serious Venn-diagram overlap with pickup trucks.
Holy Yo-Yo, Batman. To quote Styx, Haven’t We Been Here Before? I have lost track of how many “entry level” bikes HD has tried in the last 20-30 years.
Two wheels bad or two wheels good?
Good?
Perhaps not the most thought-provoking question today, Matt.
I like seeing H-D featured in the morning dump. I know a lot of people here hate it, but I have always been a Harley fan and probably always will.
As for Harley’s future, I think they should sell a very basic sportster like the 883 that was sold for decades. These looked like and rode like a proper Harley. They need to find a way to sell this for $8,000, though. $10,000 isn’t going to cut it.
It wouldn’t hurt to bring back the Harley-Davidson Street series, though, as a loss leader. They had a program for a while where you could buy a Street 500 or 750 and trade it in for what you bought it for on a bigger, more expensive bike within a certain time frame. The biggest problem with Harley is that a lot of people understandably don’t want to commit to spending $15k+ on a motorcycle if they are new to riding and not sure they will enjoy it. The Street 500 was a glorified rental program for people who wanted to try a bike. Maybe try selling these online or in another format that doesn’t require newbies to set foot in a Harley dealer.
Otherwise, Harley needs to accept that their new bikes are never going to be big sellers and be content with being a smaller company. They should also continue to work on profiting on the second-hand market – HD Marketplace was a good start, but they need to find more ways to profit off the used market.
This x100. You’re spot on with all of this. I’m a young-ish rider (gen X) though not that young, but I’ve been riding since I was 20. I’ve had every bike you can imagine, and I was a “Never-Harley” guy because I came up with those a-hole boomers and costume wearing cigar puffing “riders” everywhere on Fat Boy’s, Springers, Road Glide’s, and Road Kings.
Let me tell ya… I have a 2000 road king, ’92 softail, and a 25 Sportster S. I still do not consider myself a Harley guy. I also have BMW, Triumph, Norton… I love them all. I wave at EVERYONE.. and the way I see it, me owning these bikes is taking back Harley from the clutches of a bunch of old farts who nearly ruined it.
I agree the entry level Harley needs to be a Bonneville beater – $8,000 price range and similar spec, but also needs that V-Twin. 883 is fine, and that whole “chick bike” thing is just outdated dealer marketing that some tool fell for because they wanted to sell bigger bikes at bigger margins.
Anyway.. long live Harley-Davidson, I hope they succeed in not only adjusting their lineup, but their brand reputation.
“Will the new CEO save Harley-Davidson?” seems to be the eternal chant of the last 15 years.
I’d argue it’s been the chant for more than 40 years.
A new, small, inexpensive Sportster is more of what I want, it just needs to be made in the USA. However, $10k is still too expensive for an entry Harley
You won’t get a US built Harley for $10,000. The choice is a globally sourced model from a low cost country like everyone* else is doing or pay for Harley’s expensive labor and the USA’s high material costs.
(* Harley, Triumph, BMW, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Suzuki, KTM)
I don’t think it’s completely impossible. The Nightster and the Scout Sixty both start at $9,999. Are those not made in USA? If they wanted, they could make and sell cheaper versions or an even cheaper model. Certainly wouldn’t be loads of margin on it though.
What’s the cheapest motorcycle from a established brand that is made in a high-wage country? I’m genuinely curious. I’m guessing the answer is highly dependent on what you consider “high-wage”.
I just don’t think a sub-$10k USA made bike would sell very well, since, competing on price isn’t something USA made bikes have been capable of in decades. So it’d likely be objectively worse than the competition.
The Harley Nightster and all the Revolution models are made in Thailand
The Scout is made in the USA but Indian has never made money except for a tiny blip last year just before Polaris dumped it for a song.
Manufacturing locations for US models:
The cheapest motorcycle sold in the USA that is made in Japan or Europe is the Yamaha MT-07 for $8,599
Cheapest Honda is the NC750X for $9,499 MSRP
Cheapest Suzuki is the DR-Z4S for $8,999
They absolutely can make and sell a bike in America that costs under $10k, just keep the margins low on the bike, then offer the usual array of customizations and parts that keep the dealerships happy at the normal margins, they’d sell a bunch of them
It simply is not going to happen. Not with features that US customers want and certainly not paying Harley’s union wages.
There is a reason that almost every bike sold in the USA under $10,000 comes from India, Thailand, Indonesia, Taiwan, China…
That reason is corporate greed, not the union wages
OK – real question. What is an acceptable profit margin for a business? Where do we go from good to greedy?
The block quote directly above this says York, PA, does it not?
Yeah this was really incongruent.. It will be built exactly in York, PA.
Thank God that we have Matt Hardigree to answer important questions for *checks notes* …Matt Hardigree.
Two wheels good.
The best strategy is a chaotic unpredictable strategy.
2 wheels good! Bolted a milk crate on my bicycle to make it easier to haul stuff bought at nearby stores.
And every time you get home from the sand store, it’s all gone, like a Stellantis business model.
“E.T…phone home”
Two wheels good.
Harley has quite the image to (re?)-build; 40+ years of big & chrome (with a small Blast in-between). It would, honestly, help if they would switch to Metric.
I believe most fasteners are metric on newer Harleys. At least on the Pan Am that’s the case.
I just threw up a bit in my mouth.
Good, that it took them so long is frustrating that you need both wrenches to work on the bike.
Yeah my ’25 Sportster S is all metric