The Inflation Reduction Act was a cornerstone policy of the Biden White House, and one that was quickly removed under the current administration. Because of a quirk in the interpretation of the law, the vast majority of electric car transactions for most brands were leases. Those leases are starting to expire and will temporarily remake the used car market.
Grab your red fedora and trench coat, because The Morning Dump is a global affair today. From the hallowed halls of Congress, I’ll whisk you off to the hippy hills of California, where the state is hoping to keep its EV dreams alive.
I’ll then take you south of the border, down Mexico way, where Volkswagen is claiming the United States isn’t holding up its end of the USMCA. And, finally, it’s off to Europe, where China and the EU seem to have come to terms on what to do about the sudden influx of cheap cars to the continent.
Rockapella voice: Where in the world is… The Morning Dump?
It’ll Get Interesting For Used EV Buyers In 3-4 Months
Back in 2022, then-President Biden and then-WV Senator Joe Manchin managed to sneak the Inflation Reduction Act through a Congressional backdoor. Did it meaningfully reduce inflation as the name promised? Not in any obvious way. Did it dramatically increase inflation as some warned? No, not that either. It’s just a political name to describe something that had way more to do with creating green jobs and incentivizing EV production and purchases than with inflation.
Most, though not all, of the Inflation Reduction Act was Uno-Reverso’d by the One Big Beautiful Bill, including the provision that provided $7,500 off for the purchase of specific electric cars. Because America’s European and Asian allies freaked out a little bit about this (this was back when the White House cared about having European and Asian allies), the Biden White House carved out an exemption big enough to drive a Kia EV9 through.
Specifically, the law said the $7,500 could apply to any commercial vehicle, whatever the country of origin. The IRS interpreted a lease as a commercial vehicle. Senator Manchin freaked out about this, but ultimately, the lease exemption stayed.
As you can see in the chart above, anything that’s orange is a leased vehicle. I wrote about this before, but for most automakers, leasing was how they moved electric cars. Most leases are 24 or 36 months, which means that there’s going to be a point where all of these leased electric cars are going to get returned. Courtesy of the Q4 Manheim Used Vehicle Value Index Call presentation, you can see exactly when that’s going to start:
Those green vehicles are leases being returned, and the dark blue ones are PHEVs. As you can see, starting in approximately April of this year, the market is going to start getting flooded with potentially up to 40-50k used EVs every month.
Granted, many people could buy out their leases, but I think this is probably not a great idea for most lesees. As outlined before, our advice has always been to lease a new EV or buy a used one. The argument to lease has mostly gone away, but the idea of buying a used one still makes a lot of sense.
It’ll be a case-by-case basis, but for it to make sense for someone to buy out their electric car lease, a consumer will have to love the car and have either previously negotiated a buy-out price that reflects the significant depreciation that’s occurred, or be able to negotiate that again. I suspect that as more, say, used e-trons and Polestars get dumped on the market, used car values will drop further.
There are potential counterweights here. The lack of affordability in the market and the likely increase in electric car costs might balance it out a bit. Overall, this represents a great opportunity for someone to get a potentially good used EV at a great price. I suspect a lot of these vehicles will be CPO as well, which brings some peace of mind.
As an example, here’s a Hyundai Ioniq 6 with just 16,000 miles for just over $25,000 with tons of warranty left and even more on the battery/motor. I’d keep an eye on vehicles like the Ioniq 6, the MachE, et cetera. Also, this isn’t going anywhere. It may start in April, but it’ll continue on for the next 24-36 months.
The one caveat here is that I would check to see if the vehicle was used as rideshare car, as these tend to get charged up to 100% more frequently in my experience and may have a lower battery life. (Though modern batteries seem to be holding up well).
Will California Give You A Discount On A Used EV?
California has pledged to continue its own statewide EV tax rebate plan, setting aside $200 million for on-the-hood discounts. It’s not clear how long it’ll last, and it’s not clear if that’ll also work for used EVs purchased at a dealership.
California Air Resources Board Chairwoman Lauren Sanchez said in an exclusive interview with USA Today that her state is stepping up to offer EV tax credits because “the rest of the global market is moving toward” Zero Emission Vehicles, despite the backsliding in the level of federal support under Trump.
Sanchez said embracing EVs is “point of pride in California” because “a third of EV sales are in California.”
Under California’s previous EV tax credit program, which ran from 2013-2024, the state spent $1.49 billion to cover credits for 586,000 vehicles, according to CARB.
Asked specifically about used EVs, Sanchez told USA Today that “The team is taking a hard look at how we can [sic] a used incentive work.”
Fingers crossed for folks in the EV market.
Volkswagen: This Isn’t Fair
This is hard to quantify, but the sense that I get from most automaker execs–whatever their own personal politics–is that they don’t want to upset the President while also avoiding seeming political in a way that might upset people who disagree with the administration. It’s not worth it. Tesla’s CEO being so obviously political is likely to cost Tesla hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars.
One of the big sticking points between automakers who sell cars in the United States and the White House is the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA). This was a modification to NAFTA, and it continued the idea of a trade zone between the three countries. It was also a major policy of President Trump in his first term. President Trump doesn’t like the deal anymore and has clearly tried to discourage continued production in these countries, and most automakers have adjusted by trying to announce big projects in the United States while trying to take advantage of some transitional offsets.
Volkswagen is not one of those automakers. It has a huge footprint in Mexico and is saying the quiet part out loud as the Associated Press reports:
Though some in the auto industry have privately suggested that Trump’s tariffs amount to violations, companies have been hesitant to issue public positions saying so. Instead, they have mostly stuck to questioning the merits of Trump’s actions while also offering constructive recommendations on how U.S. trade policy should proceed.
That trend largely continued in a series of letters filed this week by automakers, suppliers and trade groups regarding the USMCA’s automotive rules of origin provisions. The Trump administration previously solicited broader comments on the trade deal in November, but the latest request for comments was for autos only.
Volkswagen, amid falling U.S. sales, was more critical of the Trump administration than industry competitors in its public filing. Europe’s largest automaker pleaded for tariff relief and requested that existing USMCA rules not be made stricter after the review.
I don’t know that this means that VW is exactly joining the Resistance alongside the Fed Chair and, uh, Wine Moms, but it’s a notable difference from most carmakers.
China And The EU Are Friends Again, Sort Of
As anyone who reads TMD regularly knows, Chinese automakers created a huge production capacity for EVs. There aren’t enough consumers in China to absorb all that demand, so it’s been trying to export cars. This is good for markets where no one makes cars, as those folks get cheap EVs. Everyone else? Not so much, so the EU slapped high tariffs on Chinese importers.
The Chinese government got mad and threatened to make French wine and other random things expensive. Now, according to the European Union, there’s a plan that should make everyone happy enough.
In its “Guidance document on submission of price undertaking offers” document, the EU offers up a plan whereby automakers will set a reasonable “Minimum Import Price” (MIP) that will counter the impact of subsidization. How will this be determined?
- Based on the CIF prices of the exporter in question in the investigation period of the proceeding leading to the imposition of the measures, increased by the relevant margin of the countervailing duties imposed.
- Basing the MIP on the non-subsidised EU-produced BEV’s sales price in the Union of the same product type (or closely resembling, appropriately adjusted for physical differences), which includes Selling, General and Administrative expenses (SG&A) and a reasonable margin of profit.
It’s complicated. For the moment, the China Chamber of Commerce to the EU seems cool with it:
The China Chamber of Commerce to the European Union (CCCEU) warmly welcomes and highly commends the positive outcome achieved through dialogue and consultations between China and the European Union, which has enabled a soft landing in the electric vehicle case. This important result responds directly to strong concerns from the business community, including the automotive sector. It not only supports the healthy and stable development of China–EU trade, investment, and bilateral relations, but also sends a clear and strong signal to global markets that both sides remain firmly committed to managing differences through dialogue and consultation, and to jointly upholding a rules-based multilateral trading system and an open global economy.
Given all of the above involving the United States and its trade position, expect China to continue to fill the EV demand left by the United States in various places around the world.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
It’s impossible to pick one Grateful Dead song to honor the passing of Bob Weir, but “Truckin'” seems appropriate for the site.
The Big Question
Is there a used EV you’d consider? How cheap would it have to be?
Top photo: Hyundai
Not yet for me (I’m not opposed but not a good enough use case), but a friend has been talking for a while about picking up a used Bolt as a 2nd car for the household. This should time well for him. Might put more older Bolts in the used market if current owners trade up to a newer off-lease EV too.
I got close to a Model Y when they were at their lowest. I could still see it, especially if I can find one with FSD already paid for.
I hate musk, but I also cringe when my better half talks about how her (2013) Altima is the most modern car she’s ever owned. Her coworkers already have Teslas and she is terrible about keeping her tank above E.
Why cringe? A lot of people consider cars from 2005-2015 to be a golden ratio of modern and DIY friendly. Even if you don’t DIY it helps keep repair costs low.
Is it for safety? Because my friend that particular vehicle is shockingly safe:
https://komonews.com/news/local/woman-miraculously-escapes-with-minor-injuries-after-car-flattened-by-semi-truck
“she is terrible about keeping her tank above E.”
If she can’t be bothered to keep a gas tank filled why do you think she’ll remember to plug in?
She’ll remember. A modern Tesla at least is obnoxious about it when it gets near 20%. Other EV’s are likely similar. If the charger is right there it removes another hassle. I set up mine so it’s 5 seconds to plug in and another 5 to unplug, including waiting for the charge door to open.
Maybe you can get an OBD2 gauge display for the Altima and program it to only display the fuel level, turning yellow at 40%, red at 30% and start screaming obscenities through the sound system at 25%.
“If the charger is right there it removes another hassle.”
So is a full set of jerry cans 😉
The charger is always there and waiting to dispense electricity. The Jerry cans need to be filled up once they’re used. Electrons never go bad while fuel does. Plus a charger handle, well, a NACS one or J1772 is far easier to handle than a 5 or even 2.5 gallon can.
All in good fun!
“All in good fun!”
Oh sure, no worries. Although I have to point out you’re spilling quite a few of those electrons every time you charge:
“average energy losses for the tested SoC areas are presented in Fig. 9 which for the 20%–100% SoC area are 13.53%. Moreover, if someone chooses to charge the EV beyond 80% of SoC, losses surpass 20% and are almost double than charging the vehicle between the suggested SoC area.”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352484719310911
That’s at 220V. Losses are much worse at 110V
I just dislike Altimas and their CVTs and the stigma around Big Altima Energy. Truthfully it doesn’t really matter as neither she nor the majority of our friends are car people. As for plugging it in, I think we’d be fine as she comes home every day. A stop at a gas station is outside the regular routine.
That wreck article is insane.
I very much liked the Altima I rented last year. It was comfy, modern, had low NVH and exceeded 32 mpg even driving up and down from sea level to over 4000′. IMO it may not be the best option for every need but it’s a solid option for many needs.
“That wreck article is insane”
It is. I love bringing it up when people insist they need a massive, pedestrian crusher for their own safety.
I would watch out on the Tesla FSD on a used purchase.
I can’t find the link but I remember shenanigans where Tesla does not allow the transfer of the FSD user license and they force you to re-purchase that as a new user.
It’s possible things changed as there was backlash. It’s also possible I don’t have the details correct but you should check into it before you make that purchase.
True, we’ll see. I’ve read and heard stories going either way. Shopping preowned on the tesla site shows that NONE come with FSD, but they all seem to have the ‘acceleration boost’ instead. I will look into it when/IF the time comes.
If I hadn’t taken the plunge on a new EV, I’d be looking hard at a 2024 Model Y Performance. Assuming insurance isn’t killer. The size is right, the build quality is generally fine for 2024 Teslas since it was the last year of that body and it’s a silly fast car that can still handle okay. 3.5 seconds 0-60 was supercar territory for as long as I can recall. Now a $25k EV can do it. Crazy.
Renault 5 E-Tech at $15,000 or whatever that is 25 years from now accounting for inflation. Can you guess which country I live in? It’s the one that ruined Skylines for everyone.
Definitely gonna be listening to American Beauty on vinyl when I get back home after this trip.
Looking to replace the partner’s older Corolla soon – these deals may be enticing. The car is rarely driven more than 100 miles in a day.
There was a time where I considered a new Bolt when they were under 20k new when including federal incentives. The monthly payment would’ve been close to the amount I paid in gas commuting with my VSport and I could’ve charged for free at work. Despite this. I didn’t pull the trigger, the main reason being that to realize the fuel savings I’d have to drive the Bolt and I really didn’t see myself reaching for the keys to that over my VSport or my Miata. Now my commute isn’t as long but used Bolts are silly cheap, the answer is still the same. Maybe I could see grabbing an Optiq or Ioniq 5 once I have the need for driving something “sporty” out of my system.
I barely drove before I was laid off – something like 5,000 miles per year – and I’m horribly absentminded about maintenance, but I live in a detached house, so an EV makes perfect sense and I was thinking about a new one once I reenter the workforce. A longer commute wouldn’t really change the scenario that much, and I hadn’t thought much about the coming lease return glut, so an inexpensive, low-mileage used EV might be just the thing.
There will come a point where Lucids are cheap enough for me to think about one, but for a car that would not fill any need that I have, $40k or so isn’t cheap enough yet.
I think there are many more of *us* that have this criteria than there are buyers for new Lucids, unfortunately
It’s a funny thing, I like the idea of the Lucid, I like that they prioritize efficiency and range, and the prices for them seem reasonable for what you get, but they don’t quite have the range I’d need to fully embrace one as a family car, and they aren’t quite cool enough for me to replace my Cadillac with one for a fun car. So they kind of exist in a no-man’s land.
It will be accepted at the valet parking or in the Citarella parking lot; that’s enough for many.
When F150 Lightnings with the big battery hit $25k or less it will be very tempting not to buy one. I like driving a truck, but with my less that 20mi/day commuting it makes a ton of sense to go EV since I can charge at home. Only downside is it couldn’t make the trek to the Track towing my Miata on a charge
With <20 mi/day commuting it would make way more sense to both your wallet and the environment to go PHEV. Plus, you would be able to make the trek to the Track without a charge while towing your Miata.
name a PHEV truck sold in the USA
soon, very soon. They won’t be under $25k though.
well, I mean, there it is. Sounds to me that the F150 Lightning would be a good fit for the Sack then
Beat me too it, no PHEVs here that can do the towing I want. A Tundra Hybrid or F150 Hybrid could work, but if I am already paying the MPG tax why bother? Although to be honest when it comes time to buy a truck, I will be hard to convince not to buy a Raptor or Super Duty Tremor with the Godzilla 7.3. Do I need one? Absoutley not, I wouldn’t take it real off roading, and my trailer weight is only 6000ish pounds, but damn are they cool.
A Gladiator 4xe lol. Ohhh you probably wanted a good suggestion, sorry.
That was just planned, right? I could’ve sworn they pulled the plug before it hit lots
Yeah it luckily never made it out for sale, couldn’t resist the joke.
I can never really resist taking a swing at Stellantis either
I need someone to convince me that a used, AWD Equinox EV will be a bad idea in 6 months
I’d love to help you, but I’d be lying if I told you that I’m not thinking of the same purchase!
I have a Blazer EV and it’s not at all worth the 55k MSRP that it came with, but they’re already selling in the mid 20s used and that’s a screaming deal. Ditto the Equinox.
My biggest argument against it is that a Lyriq is substantially better value. Lots in the mid $30s, even a few in the high $20s. Lyriq’s interiors are way nicer than I expected for a Cadillac.
Fair point. Not sure if the amount of skis, mountain bikes, etc I could buy for the price difference would make it worth it though
The only issue my wife has with hers (which is a lease, so needs addressing at the end of this summer) is the size and visibility.
It hits the marks for “appliance” very well – range is good, it has most of the gizmos, it’s quiet, and fairly comfortable (the LT – the RS bigger rims and run-flats ruin the ride). But it’s wide and feels it, it’s long (which can be nice for hauling, but she doesn’t really need it), and visibility is terrible. I haven’t driven it enough to become used to it, but the bigger footprint than my gas equinox definately makes parking trickier.
I think the new bolt will be worth a look when her lease ends because the size is more in line with what she needs. But the price tag (with fed incentives gone) and lower range may not make it a cost effective solution.
I greatly desire the AWD. Unless I’m mistaken, used Equinox EV is the cheapest, reasonable way to get into AWD EV. Noted on the visibility. Thanks
I wanted the AWD as well. Partly because I didn’t want to deal with snow tires on a lease. Partly for the extra pep in the acceleration (it does feel pretty quick). Still not great in the the snow with the giant low rolling resistance tires, so I’m glad we want with the AWD, but I bet FWD with different tires would be quite a bit better (but slower, so there’s that).
I go into the mountains in the winter, so it’s snow tires and AWD at a minimum for me. I was doing 4×4 with studded snows for a while
Contrary to this trend, the prices for good used examples of the Sebring-Vanguard CitiCar seem to be on the rise!
An icon among Crap Era EVs.
And they’re titled and street legal! So my plan is to buy a CitiCar and a Lithium ChangLi and swap the powertrain.
The CHEESE! Hell yeah, I’d have a cheese.
In the 25k and under market (CAD), I’d be very tempted by a Mach-e. That being said, a friend just picked up a brand new one this weekend, so my view may be tinted by that.
Given that people who buy an EV tend to continue to buy EVs, these lease returns will probably do a stellar job of increasing EV adoption. If a used EV with nice features can be had for the price of a Sentra or Corolla, probably lots of people will be willing to give it a shot.
For what it’s worth, we’ve been very happy with our 2021 Mach-E since buying it in January of 2022. My wife uses it for her daily commute, and it’s our running-around-town car on the weekends.
My wife is looking to replace her Optima in another 3 or so years, I’m stoked to see what EV options will be around. Quick acceleration is basically her main desired feature, so I feel like actual test drives will sway her.
Since we still have a need for a distance/utility/tow pig, I’ll still have an ICE truck or SUV, but I’d gladly pick up a dirt cheap short-range EV for my daily commute (~40km)
If things get to 25k (CAD) here in the USandA I’ll be shopping Mach-E GT or even a model Y.
My buddy just picked up a fully kitted non-GT Mach-e, with the GT appearance package.
Which, IMO, is the move. It gets the GT front end, but without the premium of making an already hilariously fast car faster.
I cannot get excited about the “performance” variant of any dual motor EV, cause they’re already so blindingly fast in base trim. Maybe I’m getting old, but if the base model does 0-60 in 5 seconds, why do I need more than that?
Fair point. I do want the bigger battery, though. I’m rural.
All the more reason to dodge the performance model. They always have less range.
I have a kid turning 16 in 2 years. I’m eagerly anticipating 2025/2026 Mach-e’s bought just before the tax credit expired coming off lease then so I can scoop one up and hand down our Prius. I think there is going to be a flood of them
My leased Equinox EV is supposed to be returned by the end of December of this year. A lot of them will be hitting the market by then, I was hoping to negotiate with GM financial but they are probably going to try to stick with the inflated residual value. I will probably buy another used one since it will be cheaper or tell my spouse go buy the same car we just returned if the dealership keeps it lol
I did something similar with my Volt that got “totaled”, someone bought it out from Copart, fixed the minor damage and put it for sale. Insurance gave me a good check, the car was way less listed for sale, and I even had the nerve to insure it back with the same insurance haha
Ed Bolian, is that you?
This is incredible lmao
The car was almost pay off, so the title had a lien = insurance more expensive. The title was released clean for some reason, and I insure it back with just the minimal no fault coverage in Michigan = cheaper insurance. Then I switched all my GM cars to GM insurance (goodbye AAA), and it went even cheaper but now I am monitored by OnStar.
We’ll be dealing with this a couple months earlier than you, but same thing. The way they calculated the $7,500 incentive made the residual on the lease something like $33k – the same price as a new one. Granted ours is a 2LT AWD and $33k gets you a FWD LT. But again, new car versus 20k mile used car.
So we’ll see what lease incentives there are at the time on a Bolt, perhaps, otherwise probably go buy a hybrid Corolla Cross and forget about EVs until the government gets back on board with them.
So many used EVs are a crap shoot. If you’re listing one, you need to charge it up and then post a photo of range meter shown on the instrument panel. Without that, I have no reason to buy your 2017 Nissan Leaf.
To be fair, picking an EV with an air cooled pack that degrades faster than any other vehicle on the market probably isn’t the move.
Now, an off-lease Equinox or Blazer with 40-50k miles on it…
To be fair, picking an EV with an air cooled pack that degrades faster than any other vehicle on the market probably isn’t the move.
Oh I dunno. At $1-2k it’s probably worth a shot for anyone looking for a cheap weekly local grocery runner:
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/d/fremont-nissan-leaf/7907856277.html
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/sebastopol-red-nissan-leaf-electric/7907110004.html
depends on your climate. In -20, making the 40km round trip to/from work could be sketchy.
But if you’re in a more temperate area and don’t need heat or A/C, you’re probably golden.
The latter.
*Looks at snow outside*
I envy your climate. But alas, I can’t afford rent in Vancouver.
I’m a lot further south than Vancouver. Winters are nice but summers…are also pretty nice.
Unfortunately, there’s a blank space in-between the 49th and 31st parallel that is not compatible with my way of life. So best I can hope for is Vancouver.
So move to Florida!
https://images.mapsofworld.com/usa/states/florida/florida-lat-long-map.jpg
Problem solved!
Instructions unclear, family sold their Florida property last summer.
The northern border of Florida runs the 31st parallel which places the entire state is just below your “blank space in-between the 49th and 31st parallel that is not compatible with my way of life.”.
So I assumed your ideal way of life is a mishmash of “Canadian Florida Man”. I imagine its much like regular Florida Man but with bears and beavers instead of gators and pythons.
Nah, as a non American, that would make me an immigrant. Which isn’t what America wants right now, according to the current admin.
According the the current administration you may not be non American for much longer anyway.
There’s two types of countries in the world. Ones that use the Metric system, and ones that lose wars to Vietnamese farmers.
*Dusts off Geneva Checklist*
Pretty sure we were backing the wrong side in every single way for that one.
The current generation EV’s are not showing the same type of battery degradation the earlier ones like the Leaf did.
The range guess-o-meters are not very useful to understand battery health. Get better data with a OBD-2 scanner like Veepeak. $30 and no software or subscriptions required. Did that on my Ioniq 5 and found lots of good info showing 99% traction battery health on a 30k mile used car.
Exactly. The range on my Bolt is exaggerated because I have a long hill to coast down on my way to work every morning. Yes, I have to climb that hill also, but between the two, the averages will not accurately reflect reality. Temperature and highway use will also impact it so if you want to inflate the range reading for a sale, just take the surface streets to work for a week in the spring when you don’t need HVAC. I routinely get 300 mile readouts on the dash in nice weather but I know full well that 250 is the reality.
A proper OBD-2 readout will be much more useful.
Testing the HV battery pack yourself via an ODBII dangle and associated software / app. is some Excellent advice so you know what you are getting
The LEAF isn’t a good example. The batteries on the early versions degrade since they’re air cooled. Liquid cooled EV batteries tend to last significantly longer.
I would absolutely consider a used EV. In fact I’ve followed E Tron GT and Taycan listings with great interest. The vast majority of the first wave of BEVs were just way too goddamn expensive, and while we’re seeing better deals as the second generation starts to roll out affordability is still an issue, especially without the federal tax credit.
But when you can more or less get combo bonuses with luxury BEVs due to two types of depreciation hitting them, you’re frequently seeing $120,000+ cars hitting the used market off lease for like 50 grand. Overpriced at MSRP or not an E Tron GT or Taycan is a lot of car for that much money and they’re equipped like other cars in the six figure world.
My only real concern is reliability. When these products were new my reaction was “I’ll bet a used German luxury EV is going to be way less trouble than an ICE one would be” but unfortunately the opposite seems to be true. Less components and mechanical complexity just aren’t really translating to better reliability for a lot of the first gen EVs.
But I do get tempted by a Taycan every now and then. Anyway I do have a follow up question for folks who know more than I do-is it a bad idea or a great idea to buy a used BEV that got a branded title due to a battery replacement and not an accident? A lot of the initial ones have been lemoned and are returning to the market with new batteries.
They become obscenely cheap due to the title issues but if the car was given a new battery entirely under warranty like many of them have been it doesn’t seem all that risky to me because it’s not like the whole car needed to be rebuilt or anything…and if you’re willing to roll the dice on that there are frankly ridiculous deals to be had.
In a just world, I’d have enough money and garage space for a used Taycan 4S wagon
That’s the dream. Matt Farrah bought one for his wife and drove it from Michigan to LA without too many headaches. He seems to really like it.
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d52f9008-f64f-4fc1-a03a-cf5bc54abc91/
I mean for less than 50 grand?!
The only thing I’d be cautious about with the Taycan is the wheel configuration. Certain wheels require tungsten carbide discs which are $12-15,000 a pop to replace all four, similar to the cost of the brakes on a ZR-1. Granted, brakes are hardly used on electric vehicles (we rarely used them on our Tesla), but a little forethought could go a long way to reducing 5-10 year maintenance costs.
6 figure cars costing a proportionally 2-3x amount more to maintain with parts costs alone is still a very real thing.
I do agree as ev’s mature they definitely Should have less to go wrong with them and therefore less maintenance costs for ‘engine/trans’
Brakes – much less…
Suspension – likely the same (if not a bit more bc of the added weight)
Tires likely a bit more (to a lot more, depending on how you drive) + again due to the added weight
100% agree. My only point was choosing the right, or wrong wheel in this case, could add an extra $5-7k on a brake job that was unexpected. If I remember correctly, this is only an issue on the Taycan Turbo wheels. The other wheels get standard cast iron rotors.
yesssss ha ha ha ha ha YES
I’m following the Taycan depreciation but also Escalade IQ depreciation.
One of the big drawbacks of the giant GM SUVs is their absurd fuel consumption but to get one as an EV and remove that headache is tempting. If I could get an EV Tahoe, I’d be sold
Escalade IQ already $30k off new sticker
If you’re looking at it from a purely cost related perspective these will absolutely be way less expensive to run than an ICE Escalade….but if you’re looking at it from an environmental perspective the huge GM BEVs are so resource intensive to make that their initial environmental impact is unbelievably bad. Make of that what you will.
Oh yes, which is why I would only buy it used. Keep it as long as possible to try and negate as much impact as possible.
Sure would be nice if they put the Babymax in the Escalade….
Hybrid with the 2.7T, maybe even a nonturbo version of it as a fleet car since livery services don’t care about fast.
It was in there for years and only recently discontinued.
The problem with any used luxury car will always be luxury repair costs, and that seems to hold true for EVs too. At least it seems that most of the mainstream EVs are pretty reliable other than Hyundai/Kia’s 800V ICCU issues.
On your follow-up question, I don’t know the answer but we have to consider what caused the original battery to fail. If it’s because of a manufacturing defect in the battery itself (cells or assembly), you can hope that it was just unlucky and the new one should be fine. If it was a BMS failure, it should be a new one since it’s integrated with the pack (pretty sure all BMSs are pack-integrated by now?). The important question is if the battery failure could possibly be caused by external components like the inverter, charger, or motor which are unlikely to have been replaced with the battery. I feel like the answer is no, but if it was then it’s most likely to be the inverter unit.
I have a ’19 Bolt with a replaced battery under the recall. OEM was a 60kWh battery, replacement was 66kWh. It came with a new 8 Year battery warranty with a clock starting on the date of replacement. I don’t know if the chemistry was updated at all – depends on what may have changed about the batteries in 2021. My state has not branded my title for this, as far as I know. Since it was a recall issue, I’d think not.
We also have a ’17 Leaf. That battery’s degradation met the requirements for warranty replacement in 2024 and we took advantage of that. It also ended up with a bigger-than-OEM battery, giving it good-weather range of around 150-170 (original was 110). It’s an awesome city car for our daughter to drive while she’s in college and scrapping it just because the range dropped would have meant wasting the rest of the car, which is in great shape. If a city car is all you need I wouldn’t write off a used Leaf, but when we tried it as a family car before the kids were driving it was not effective. Definitely not for interurban use. Again, no title branding due to warranty replacement, to the best of my knowledge.
A used EV is nothing to be afraid of, and if it’s been through a battery replacement it can be a good deal. The hard part might be determining whether the battery was replaced or not.
You might also luck into a situation where you can get it cheap with an original battery and then get that replaced under warranty, as DT did with his BMW.
You probably know this, but financing and insuring a branded title car can be difficult.
**Edit**I just repeated what Nsane mentioned below**
I saw an Ioniq6 in the topshot red the other day and it’s a great looking car. I’d consider it as the replacement to my daily.
If we weren’t looking to replace the family car first, these deals in the mid twenties would be very compelling. With that in mind, I’d take an EV9 or Ioniq9 in the mid 20’s. Or an R1S at $25k lol.
Last year I considered, talk myself into, then bought a used ’23 Polestar 2. There are some really great deals right now.
VW being “ANTIFA” would be one of history’s greatest ironies
At least they’d have learned their lesson.
Germany as a country (although more so the former West) has taken the moral failures of fascism to heart, as has post-Franco Spain. Maybe we in the US need to be bombed to smithereens to see ourselves for what we’ve become and learn our lesson.
The US has been so rabidly anti-Communist that here we are, 80 years after the fall of Berlin, and Fascists are running the show.
Kinda exactly how Germany wound up w/ the Nazis in power too.
The US forgot history and why we fought WW2. It’s now on our shores.
Ugh, seriously. It’s so disheartening.
Yeah, Of all the car companies, I trust VW to be able to clock a despot given the company’s entire origin story.
They went from KdF-Wagen to hippie bus in their first 30 years.
Die a villain or live long enough to be a hero?
I’ve considered an EV6, but I don’t like the local Kia dealership’s service department. I have been watching for a good used Lyriq with the options I want, though I am also still waiting to see what happens with Telo. I am around #17 in the reservation queue, so I will probably have to decide pretty quickly if they do go to production.
EV’s require such a minimal amount of maintenance, I wouldn’t let the service department deter you.
It’s not the routine service that bothers me. I had a problem with the charging port on my Niro and it was godawful trying to get them to fix it and a fight to get them to give me a loaner while they completed the warranty repair.
I’ve been casually eying Chevy Volts for years now, since pre-Covid, back when they still depreciated. Unfortunately, the prices haven’t budged much (fwiw, I’m semi-looking for my son’s first car and he has a 15-mile rural commute to school and isn’t very responsible about plugging things in).
But at the same time, I also saw a TON of buyback Bolt EVs selling for $15k or less. I was less enthused about them, but hopefully that’s a sign of things to come with this glut of EVs coming soon.
In my experience, people who have to fill the tank learn to plug in REAL quick, even when somebody else foots the bill, because going to the gas station is a hassle that can be avoided.
Even with a full EV, good way to get responsible about plugging in is to do it while still having the school bus to fall back on.
Uhhh, not sure what used car market everyone else is looking at but it’s already really crazy with amazing used examples with 15k miles or less on them for 40-50% off. I bought a used 2025 Equinox EV that was supposed to be $42k new for $21k with 19k miles on it.
If you want a used EV, the bargains are already out there.
There’s already a huge depreciation swing right now, I just think it’s going to be more pronounced in a few months. How did a 2025 Equinox EV get 19k miles on it? Was it rideshare?
Not sure, we took it in from GM auction and it was in great shape. I drive about 25k miles a year and it’s already saved me an oil change lol.
The craziest part is not worrying about miles too much on a used EV because there’s so little maintenance, what’s the meaningful difference between an EV of the same year with 4k miles or 20k miles? Tires? The market hasn’t reflected that yet
Excellent insight — I’ve said for a long time that even ICE vehicles need a mandatory “running time” or “cold starts” or some other metric beyond just mileage. It’s archaic.
Doubly so with EVs.
Which means they’re only going to get better when inventory starts piling up. Maybe the advertised price won’t change much, but I’m betting there will be a lot more wiggle room on the dealership floor.
We started buying them at our dealership just because they’re so cheap and low miles. I wonder what this will do for EV adoption with them being screaming bargains. I was looking at a new Prius but I couldn’t say no to more car for less money.
I said it above, since people who buy an EV tend to keep buying EVs, this will likely move the needle significantly on EV adoption through the used market. As the original owners will probably go lease/buy a new EV anyways.
I would be very surprised if we don’t see EVs steal a notable part of used sales by Q4.
Yeah, that’s what all this “EVs are over now” commentary of late misses. Once the ball gets rolling, it’s hard to stop.
Even if new EVs were removed from the market for the next few years, the cars aren’t going away. They will easily have 10+ year service lives. Everyone who purchases these cars new (or used) will continue to require places to charge them. The infrastructure will continue to improve.
I have zero doubt that the federal incentives (right or wrong) were priced into the MSRP and the class of EV being produced up until this point. The blueprint for cheaper EVs is there, and they will make it to market one way or another. Never mind the used market. So price will be sorted, soon enough.
That just leaves range, and I would expect the next generation of batteries to handle that, though familiarity with EVs in the market may even make that superfluous.
It’s like cordless power tools. Even when they weren’t quite as good as AC, they were worth buying. Now it’s a no brainer, even for outdoor power equipment.
Agreed. Especially on outdoor power equipment. My snow blower is pretty much the only thing I can’t/won’t replace, as the amount of snow I move vs. battery capacity don’t align.
Anyone starting in the heavy diesel trade asks me what air tools to get, I always tell them to go battery whenever possible. Forget air lines. (my 80gal compressor cries in it’s corner)
I just have no use case for an EV at all, so none, and I have yet to drive one I could stand to live with anyway. So not even for free unless registration and insurance are free as well. My driving is either too short to care or too far to be bothered, with very little in-between.
Completely free with no out of pocket what-so-ever, I’d whir happily around town in a 500e. Old style or new doesn’t matter.
Interesting that you have written off an EV without ever driving one. We have leased several of these over the past 7 years…and see little use case for going back. While I have fun wrenching on my older gas-powered vehicles, my day to day will be EV.
The biggest wow factor is that EVs are so quick. Mind bending quick. Quick in a way that changes your understanding of how to pilot a car. The second thing you arrive at is how quite they are…and how the quiet makes the entire driving experience more relaxing.
You defiantly laugh at Raptors and Mustangs growling away at a stoplight…and know that you could if wanted to…totally walk away from them in a 1/4mile race. You begin to think that the whole Raptor/Mustang thing is simply a costume.
While some folks get hung up on a power cord. We have a charger at home, and I have access to charging at work. On trips we have had zero issues finding chargers. The biggest surprise was that many hotels that I have stayed at will charge the car for free. I rarely charge my car more than once a week…sort of similar frequency of prior visits the gas station. When viewing our year over year cost of electricity then backing out what we paid for gas…we are easy $$$ ahead.
In summary, please don’t be so quick to write an EV off, give one a try for a few weeks, you may find a new appreciation.
I have driven a broad selection of them. Can’t stand them. Idiotic user interfaces across the board, and as interesting to drive as a golf cart. Acceleration is so far down my list of driving priorities it isn’t even funny. My Triumph Spitfire is more than fast enough to entertain me, anything faster than that is lily-gilding. I was perfectly content driving a ’79 Peugeot 504 Diesel, for that matter. If I wanted my organs rearranged by G-forces, I would get a season ticket to Six Flags. Cheaper and safer.
Ultimately, I have five paid-for cars already I am quite happy with, although I plan to reduce the fleet size this year to three or four. Not counting trips were I can’t be arsed to deal with an EV period (and work is often picking up the tab), I use less than a tank of gas a month (as I have said on here before, I spend more on my weekly Friday Indian lunch most months than I do on gasoline). In what universe is spending even $25k to save less than $50/mo worth it? The savings in op-ex isn’t worth the cap-ex investment. In an ideal world, I would theoretically love a PHEV, but nobody makes one of those I can stand either, and same cap-ex vs. op-ex problem. Volvo came closest, but only offered the thing in an asinine and ludicrously expensive configuration that didn’t interest me at all.
And I have done my part for Mother Earth by not breeding, so I am not inclined to do it for shrub-hugging reasons either.
My distain for utterly horrible human interfaces in new cars is well documented here. Unfortunately, a new Audi Q5 gas or Q6 E-tron each suffer from the same crappy UI. So, we are totally in agreement there.
But absent of the horrible human interface, EVs are pretty cool.
Meh, I find them very, very boring. Right pedal down, go fast. Left pedal down, stop fast. Turn steering wheel, which usually has minimal actual feel, it turns. Unless it just does it for you. All the while making wind and road noise only (and for the cheaper ones rather too much road noise), with too often an annoying electric motor whine in the background. Yawn. So I don’t find them particularly cool at all.
I prefer rather more sense of occasion with my driving, and a whole lot more involvement.
Until there is one that can get on the Interstate and let me take a nap or read a book while Robo-Jeeves does 100% of the driving, I have no interest at all. And I am easy, I only care about self-driving on Interstates, I am perfectly happy to DIY everywhere else.
Agreed. If you want an ev and despise the giant screens…
Custom for now is the only option:
1. Start with a car that never was an ev and convert it or have it converted for you, ending up with a potentially very choice ride that will always be range limited
Or
2. And probably the easier / mote convenient option at least for a daily driver… remove the ugly giant screen in the middle of the dash and replace it with whatever controls you like Or have someone do this for you
I concur with most of what you are saying.
BUT…it would be way easier to purchase and less costly to obtain if the manufacturers would just add buttons and switches.
I had one of those dirty diesel Audi A7s. I loved it.
The dash was an early version of the wrap screen just behind the steering wheel. The data presented was only what you needed to drive the car.
The other functions screen brilliantly popped out of the dash when needed…and tucked back in at a button push. This was deeply appreciated at night when it reduced the dash clutter/distraction and allowed focus on just driving.
Everything else was operated from manual switches, toggles, rollers with that silky smooth Audi detents/feedback.
So…the current screen iteration is far worse than early implementations. Sort of the electronic version of the Peter Principle. I think there is a current tech sector calls this “eshitification”. Perfect.
I totally agree with you, i.e. if the automakers would use simple dials and switch…
I think Tesla has had such a large impact that all the established automakers (and even other ev startups – Rivian, Lucid + all thr Chinese) followed suit with the ‘slap a big screen’ in the center of the dash even if it looks like it is a late design or aftermarket solution…
If / where auto design or otherwise leaders are making this interior design decision based on cost I agree this is enshitification which is quite vexing. I do think some of the decision is in an attempt to compete / chasing a trend.
And Sadly enshitification is found in a Lot of sectors, it was the word of the year in 2023 / 2024 by various groups
The Audi A7 (and S7) are still really nice looking large saloons!
AND Audi usually makes pretty fine interiors as well.
In addition to excellent paint and fit and finish, all on top/in a solid physical structure (chassis) with very long lasting corrosion protection.
The opportunities Like most (all?) VW products and German cars in general, it’s the often unique and sometimes rather odd mechanical or mechanical packaging solutions that require more frequent and sometime incredibily frustrating maintenance especially past 100k. I attribute this to the ‘company car’ as part of the average salaried person’s pay packages in Europe that has developed as a norm over the past 30-40 years.
W/the (in my opinion wrong thinking* of) Why care about how a car can hold up over 100k miles if the avg. Salaried person will get a new one after 5 years?
*I love cars, though there’s no getting around the fact they are an incredibly resourceful intensive product that on thr whole is massively inefficient at Transporting our collective butts from place to place. As long as we have them, I argue they should all take the 80’s Mercedes and Lexus model of making them last as long as possible
Agreed on the repairability and durability thing. I am fortunate that my employer leases cars on a three year cycle. So…I never have to drop the bumper and radiator to replace the timing belt/chain ( been there…done that…I’m looking at you 2002 A4)
Cars that do regular short runs are probably the best EV case. Charge that sucker once every week or two, and not have to worry about short cycles, old gas, and a myriad of other things.
I have a co-worker whose wife commutes 3km round trip. It’s wreaking havoc on the engine and trans in her SantaFe. Yes, she should walk. But she’s not gonna. A used Equinox would be the ideal car for her and likely last her another 15 years at the rate she uses it.
In theory, you are correct (not that I worry about any of those things at all – I have three of my cars that I put less than 2K a year on between them, and they sit for 9+ months a year, and have for decades in the case of one of them). The money doesn’t work. Why in God’s name would I spend $25-40K+ to save less than $50/mo in gas? Especially cars that I don’t even like for myriad reasons having nothing to do with how they are powered. That is the definition of stupid. it’s not like I am going out and buying new ICE cars either, at this point I am not buying *anything* modern, and have no intention of buying any new cars ever again unless the industry makes some dramatic changes – and I am not holding my breath. My next automotive purchase is almost certainly going to be a minty ’80s Alfa Spider that I will drive a couple thousand miles a year max.
In theory, a PHEV would be perfect for me. In the real world the juice ain’t worth squeeze, and nobody makes either a PHEV or an EV I have any interest in driving anyway.
Ok. So happy to stand pack with your current garage. Totally cool.
However, for those of us who do like a change in vehicle scenery from time to time, EV is something that can be considered.
For every reason you put forward, an EV is not for you.
And that is fine.
Even if I change it up, the chances of my buying anything designed post 2005 or so is about on par with my winning the PowerBall. And I don’t buy lottery tickets. I made a mistake buying my 2014 Mercedes in a lot of ways. Should have bought something rather older.
But for the most part, I have gotten my automotive ADHD out of my system (very much assisted by what is currently on offer). 50+ cars in 40 years is plenty.
As an EV fanboy since the 80s, it’s funny to find myself in the same boat. I drive a pickup 1-2 times a week is all, maybe when the engine goes I’ll convert it using whatever awesome motor and battery technology is in the junkyards by then.
A Mach-E Rally for 25K would be a hilarious bargain
I’d certainly say so 😉
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1144965_a-ford-mustang-mach-e-rally-dominated-an-scca-rallycross
I was pretty meh on TBQ having my commuting needs satisfied, but holy crap. Yeah. This is the move.
I keep wondering about “future classics” of today. What is on sale today that will someday be a collector car. The only EV that comes to mind is the original Tesla Roadster as has already been proven. I don’t think any EVs on sale today are special enough. But the Mach-E Rally may be the right mix of fun, rare, and special to become a collector item. For both of our sake, I hope not.
Honestly, a lightly used IONIQ 6 in the low to mid 20’s would seem like an excellent deal to me. It would make an excellent commuter for me. And based on what I’m seeing, that might not be so unrealistic by the spring.
They’re already there!
Used Ioniq 6
Oh wow assuming that deal is for real that’s mighty tempting.
There’s a couple of different ones in various parts of the country at similar prices and mileage. Even if this one is rough, they’re all trending that direction
That’s exactly what I’m targeting after the lease on my 500e is up. There should be some nice Ioniq6 Limiteds coming off lease in early ’27 for pretty cheap.
My local Hyundai dealer is horrible and the Hyundai EV’s still are having ICCU failures AFAIK. I’m steering clear of H/K EV’s for right now.
Yeahhhh, that’s fair.
As someone leasing an Ioniq 6 in The Good Red right now, I support this message. The cabin is really nicely laid out and the suspension is *chefs kiss*. It’s made my commute downright pleasant.
Thank you for getting one of these Hyundai EVs in a color. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a 5 or 6 in a color in the wild.
One of my friends has a 5 in Digital Teal! We both decided that a real color was worth a very slightly higher lease payment and we do not have regrets.
y’all are doing the Lord’s work by getting awesome colors