People love a will-they-won’t-they plot, and there’s an enormous amount of leeway given to storytellers to drag them out almost to infinity. But if people adore a Ross-and-Rachel stringalong, they equally abhor a Moonlighting-style quick resolution. My credit to the writers of the Nissan-and-Honda coupling, as they’re experts at the tease.
I greatly enjoyed covering the Nissan/Honda/Mitsubishi/Foxconn drama over the last year or so in The Morning Dump, and I’m glad to hear that it’s not going away. Nissan’s new boss hinted that there are a lot more possibilities for the two companies here in the United States, where both are squared up against Toyota.
Another partnership worth watching is Rivian and Volkswagen, which is hoping to make money by selling its software to other automakers. Software is the key, and Waymo thinks its self-driving software is the best, which is backed up by the Alphabet-owned company’s latest moves.
Trade? Sure, I’ll talk about trade. Specifically, I’m curious about the harmonization between our standards and Europe’s standards.
Nissan CEO Is Buttering Up Honda For An American Tie-Up
If you were unconscious for the last year, then you missed the fun that was the Nissan-Honda whirlwind. The short version of it is that Honda and Nissan hastily announced a vague-but-serious partnership last November, which looked a lot like Honda just buying Nissan. It was quite the hasty move, and it was revealed shortly afterwards that this was borne out of fear that the Taiwanese (aka the ROC) company Foxconn might try to take over a struggling Nissan.
Mitsubishi is still tied up with Nissan, and there were various rumors about this love quadrangle, with Nissan being variously tied to Honda, Foxconn, Mitsubishi, or some mix of the three. Eventually, Nissan’s CEO got cold feet over the idea of being subservient to Honda and killed the deal. Facing massive losses, the old CEO got booted, and Nissan appointed happy drummer Ivan Espinosa to the top role.
Nikkei Asia did an interview with Espinosa, and a big theme was that he would love to do more with Honda in the United States:
“We are talking about how we can collaborate in the U.S. Is there any opportunity for joint product development or for powertrain development? These are the topics that we are discussing,” Nissan President and CEO Ivan Espinosa said in an interview held at the automaker’s headquarters in Yokohama, Japan.
[…]
Though he did not explicitly state whether Nissan could produce Honda vehicles at Nissan’s facilities in the U.S., he did say: “We are open to anything. … The good thing is, both companies have very good coverage in the U.S. in terms of manufacturing, supply network and also engineering capabilities. So we have a lot of, I would say, options to explore.”
Even with Nissan closing plants and shifting more production to the United States, the automaker probably has too much capacity at the moment for its current sales. Honda doesn’t seem to have this problem, as that brand has a way lower inventory than the national average, whereas Nissan is usually well above it.
If Honda and Nissan could collaborate on, say, a small crossover, then Honda could have Nissan build it in Tennessee and use its production capacity for higher margin vehicles like big crossovers. Or, and this isn’t that crazy, the next Honda truck could be a rebaged Nissan with a Honda hybrid powertrain, maybe? That sounds right to me.
Rivian and VW Think There’s A Way To Make Money Off Software
Developing software for cars is hard, and almost everyone is bad at it. Volkswagen was really bad at it, and it took advantage of Rivian’s need for cash to create its own budding romance. It seems to be going ok so far, although rumors from Wolfsburg have shed some light on the potential difficulties of the partnership.
New relationships take time, especially when you get out of the honeymoon phase, so maybe this May-December romance will work out. Bloomberg has a sense of what a successful coupling might look like:
The two companies’ joint venture, known as RV Tech, said it has made solid progress on delivering the EV electrical and software platform that Volkswagen needs to compete with Tesla and Chinese rivals. The JV is focused on delivering models for Rivian and VW but is keeping communication open with third parties about the scalability of its platforms.
“We’re solving a problem for the larger automotive industry,” Wassym Bensaid, Rivian’s software chief and RV Tech co-chair, told journalists at an event in Palo Alto, California, on Wednesday. “That could become an opportunity” for others as well, he said.
The platform is designed to be scalable across vehicle sizes and segments in Western markets.
The earning potential from licensing the technology “is a very different ballgame,” Bensaid said, “and a very different margin profile from a business standpoint than making cars.”
Rivian is having to do a bunch of work to make the platform work for gas-powered VW cars, so once that investment is made… maybe margins can be found!
Waymo Gets To The Highway First
The secret of Waymo is that it works very well, even if the Google-owned robotaxis aren’t perfect. While the vehicles are geo-fenced like Tesla’s robotaxis, the reality is that the Teslas currently operate in a small area and can’t go on the highway.
That’s going to change this week, according to Automotive News:
Rides in San Francisco, Phoenix and Los Angeles will become faster with highway route options starting this week for a limited pool of riders before expanding, Waymo said Nov. 12.
“Freeway driving is one of those things that’s very easy to learn but very hard to master when we’re talking about full autonomy without a human driver as a backup and at scale,” Waymo co-CEO Dmitri Dolgov said on a media call.
Google’s self-driving car project first started testing on highways in its early days more than 15 years ago, Dolgov said.
So far as I know, no other robotaxis in the United States have highway operation, especially without a safety driver.
Is EU-US Harmonization Coming Soon?
The United States agreed to lower the tariff on European cars to just 15%, but like the plans for my BMW, it’s all vibes/few details. We could end up in a world with two very different types of standards and cars, or one where EU countries and American automakers share common (or at least accept different) standards.
From Bloomberg via Automotive News, that’s not out of the question:
The so-called implementation action plan, which has yet to be shared with the U.S., would focus on five areas, according to the people. Those areas include tariffs and market access, where the EU is seeking lower rates for several additional goods including wines and spirits.
The plan also seeks a dialog to address issues such as standards, digital trade, technical barriers and other trade grievances, said the people. It would also explore cooperation on steel and aluminum where the bloc wants to work with the U.S. to tackle global overcapacity.
The EU is still facing a 50 percent tariff on steel and aluminum exports, as well as on many derivative products. The bloc is especially concerned that the breadth of goods hit by the levies risks hollowing out the 15 percent tariff ceiling it agreed with the U.S. The commission, which handles trade matters for the bloc, wants a quota system that would allow a certain amount of the metals exports to receive lower duties.
So you’re saying there’s a chance… I can get a Škoda Superb truck?
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
I think it’s clear that I have a weakness for female-led modern/dance-y pop music. But there is a queen above all queens, and that’s Robyn. Robyn is amazing. Just take the day off to listen to Robyn, you have my permission. After a long wait, we finally have new Robyn in the form of “Dopamine.” ROBYN!
The Big Question
What should Honda and Nissan build together?
Top photo: Honda-Nissan
My answer. Same as always. Honda/Nissan should build the Defender that JLR didn’t have the guts to build.
Honda and Nissan should build:
A new Pulsar/CRX platform
A new RWD large platform for Acura and Infiniti
Obvious choice is a collaboration of a Datsun 2000 and a Honda S2000.
The Datda 2000-2?
Fairlady S?
I see a world where Nissan makes a Honda truck (Frontier rebadge), and Honda makes a Nissan SUV (Passport -> Xterra).
They collaborate on drivetrain options and hybridize both.
I’m glad to see the harmonization of US/EU vehicle standards is still a topic of conversation. The elephant in the room, however, is the EPA. The EU has consistently pushed further ahead on regulating vehicle emissions than the US. Add in the fact that the current administration has declared war on the EPA, and I don’t understand how harmonization could realistically happen.
Also, amber turn signals for the world? Please.
The current EPA will probably implement a standard that all cars must pollute to a certain level and any Euro-spec cars will have to be fitted with an emissions increasing system to be sold here.
From a pure American market perspective the answer is clearly a truck. Honda doesn’t have a BOF vehicle and a lot of people wish that they did. The Ridgeline is kind of a lovable oddball that enthusiasts adore because it’s weird and so devoid of truck baggage but it’s always been a niche vehicle and not a big seller. I maybe see one in the wild once a week, if that.
Honda also has the new Passport which seems…nice (I personally really like it) but a few fries short of a happy meal for the market they’re going after. I think if people were honest with themselves a Passport or even just a Subaru would be adequate for 95% of buyers who want an off roader but come on now….if people were honest with themselves interesting cars wouldn’t even exist (I’m trying to be more charitable with the truck crowd than I have been lately).
I think they could use the Frontier platform, which by all accounts is pretty good, to make the next Ridgeline (which doesn’t seem to be in the works anyway) and some sort of 4Runner/Bronco/Wrangler competitor. There’s a part of me that says “make it a damn hybrid with Honda’s tech” but that market could not care less about fuel economy.
The real question is which V6 do you use? People shit on the VQ all the time but it’s a damn good engine if you don’t modify it, and the Honda V6s have a devoted following that borders on cult-like. Nissan has partnered with ZF on their 9 speed transmission so I’d take that over the Honda 10 speed that people seem to really dislike.
Or-and keep your boners to yourselves commentariat-they throw the manual from the Z in it as an option. If it can handle the Z’s 400 horsepower I’m sure it’ll be perfectly fine with the 300ish both the NA V6s put out. That would certainly make for a unique offering that 3-5 of us would buy….
This is a good take. I also agree with you about the Passport. I strangely find myself wanting one. I have no desire for a Pilot, but for some reason the marketing for the Passport has worked on me. Plus, dedicated wiper-fluid jug storage is the kind of thoughtful design I wish more automakers included.
I’d almost certainly go for a Passport if I needed that size vehicle. I think the real test for it for Honda is if it adds or steals sales in the existing lineup. YTD Pilot is down 9% or 11k units, but they’ve moved 20k more Passports and an additional 4k Ridgelines so that more than makes up for it. And the Pilot decrease is most likely just from other competitors having increases – namely Grand Highlander actually having some availability now/again.
I’m going to need a bigger car eventually and a Passport checks just about every box except one. It’s got ample space, it’s stylish, it’s as reliable as a modern car can be, the Trailsport interior bits are hard wearing and more washable so it’ll stand up to kids and the dog, and it’s got more capability than I’ll ever need living in DC. It’s also not eye wateringly expensive and it’s going to be much comfier driving on the terrible roads here than a BOF SUV would.
…but the fuel economy. Woof. Just horrendous and unacceptable in 2025. Would affording the gas be an issue? Not at all, my Kona N is only marginally more efficient and I put premium in it rather than the swill the Honda V6 will actually chug.
Is it actually a big deal in the grand scheme of things? No. I also only drive 6-8,000 miles a year. But as someone who tries to be conscious of their carbon footprint the lefty guilt of owning something that gets fuel economy in the mid teens in practice would eat away at me.
It’s just like…we don’t have to do that anymore. That’s not a compromise we have to make with where hybrids and EVs are now. And I don’t think I can make it personally.
I didn’t know MPG was that bad, gees. “We don’t have to do that anymore” mirrors my mindset. Like sure, I could… but why? Add up the extra fuel over the life of the vehicle and we’re talking thousands of $$$. It might not be eye-watering expensive, and I don’t know what you’re cross-shopping… but it’s pushing $50k at near base configuration. I understand that the average new car price is over $50k, but I cannot justify spending that much on a car in a similar way as I can’t justify 19 mpg. Like sure, I could do it, but I won’t.
There are spy shots of the new Pilot platform, which is shared with the Ridgeline, and there’s also Honda’s announcement of the hybridized V6 powertrain, which seems like a no-brainer for a future Ridgeline.
I guess I’m just confused why so many people are wanting Honda to enter a space they have zero history in, and what’s so wrong with them continuing to operate in the unibody truck segment? That segment has really been growing in a significant way with the introduction of the Maverick and Santa Cruz, and if the next Ridgeline offers a hybrid powertrain it seems like that segment will continue to do so. It would also be the only truck in that segment with a V6.
I get that as enthusiasts we like and care about weird crap, but I do not seriously think the majority of the public care or even know whether their vehicle is BoF or not. They want comfort and efficiency, and if a next-gen Ridgeline could return mid-30’s mpg in a hybrid format with the towing capacity of a V6 it seems like a lay-up for Honda.
I’m shocked that it’s taken them this long to develop a hybrid powertrain for their large vehicles. Literally all of their competitors have them and Honda was way ahead of the curve on hybrids. Everyone gives Toyota credit for being the brand that got them into the mainstream but folks are quick to forget that Honda was right there with them.
It just seems like such a massive unforced error on their end, and apparently the new hybrid V6 is several years away. By the time it’s out I imagine the competition will already be ahead of it and there will be much more enticing EV options that will attract some of the potential buyers.
They really screwed the pooch on this. If they had the hybrid powertrain now my wife would have his and hers big Hondas in the driveway tomorrow. I’d have a Passport and she’d have a Pilot. We currently own one Honda and it’s treated us very well. Her family all has them too and none of them have ever had any issues. They’re great cars, I just wish they were more efficient cars.
I don’t think they’ve been any worse for wear on it. Toyota has only really been the key one. Mazda is a relative bit player, Chrysler has been static with their PHEVs, the larger H/K models are just in the last couple years. I guess Ford on occasion too on Explorer.
Difference vs. Toyota is that Honda has never been that consistent with how they’ve offered hybrids whereas the Toyota models have largely been a mainstay even if it’s a small role. The IMA systems I think weren’t really as advanced as Toyotas, they often leaned more into the ‘sport hybrid’ thing over the years (MDX hybrid, which wasn’t rated to tow so that probably wasn’t a great jumping off point), and a merry-go-round of which models/nameplates were electrified in some way.
The latest platform underpins the current MDX, Pilot, and Passport (released in that order). Only the Ridgeline and the Odyssey are still on the old platform, and the Odyssey has so many changes it’s basically its own thing, anyway.
I’m betting this tie-up will remain highly US-centric, so the next-gen Ridgeline being a rebadged Frontier is a slam dunk for me. I suspect it’ll see a bump in sales just from the Honda badge just like the Prologue. Maybe just start there and see what works. You know, take it slow
Moonlighting was so fuckin’ cool back in the day. It had a sort of lazy, hazy feel that made it the sexiest show on TV. They even made Booger and Agnes seem sexy.
But oh, the car… a cocaine-white BMW 635, in my opinion one of the best-looking car bodies ever built. So 80s LA it almost hurt.
“What should Honda and Nissan build together?”
That’s easy… electric vehicles. Nissan is actually ahead of Honda on this. And they have a couple of decent BEVs in the Ariya and new Leaf. Building an EV for Honda on Nissan’s “AmpR Medium” platform would be something that would be mutually beneficial.
I also think they could collaborate on hybrid powertrains… something that I think Honda is ahead of Nissan on.
And then there are small cars… Nissan could use a new Micra… and that could be a variant of the Honda Fit/Jazz.
Better than the prologue GM platform that eats axles.
Honda has been working on their 0 series EVs for a while now. They seem content to play the long game on the EV market with Toyota, which I think is a good decision overall.
Their 0 series has exactly 0 models in production. So it’s still essentially vaporware at this point.
Nissan’s EVs on the other hand, are actually in production.
And then there is the Crooked Trump Tariff factor.
The Nissan EVs nor Honda’s vaporware EVs are built in the USA.
Jointly building an EV together for North America just might make more sense… even for Honda given that Honda seems to be pulling away from GM.
Would love to see the US adopt more Euro safety standards. We’re so behind in a lot of areas (lighting and pedestrian safety immediately come to mind).
Nissans with Honda Hybrid tech, and Honda EVs with Nissan EV tech. As it sits, Honda has far better hybrid drivetrains than Nissan, and Nissans EVs seem to be a good bit more advanced than Honda, given Hondas only EVs in the US have been made by GM. Both companies get more market coverage with better technologies, and get to save a lot on development work. I know EVs are not the hottest segment right now while Hybrids are, but Honda still needs some decent EV offerings to keep customers in showrooms, some people, credits or not, want EVs, and they want them with a Honda badge.
There is nothing Nissan has that Honda needs, and no, Honda does not need a BoF truck/SUV.
I think both yes and no on the BOF front. Right now Toyota, Ford and Jeep are absolutely cleaning up in showrooms with their BOF offerings, and if Honda created a 4Runner competitor with a J35 and reasonable capability, they’d steal plenty of sales from 4Runner buyers who are weary of the Turbo 4 drivetrains. Honda’s biggest problems of the past 20 years is that they are overly cautious and slow to react to trends in the market, while making some really oddball choices. If they had a developed BOF Tacoma and 4Runner fighter, they would be selling at least 5x what the Ridgeline and Passport sell.
The difference is that Toyota, Ford, and Jeep have been building BoF trucks for the last 60 years at least. Honda would be a brand-new player in an already very-crowded market with fierce brand loyalties. I don’t get the Ridgeline dislike. It has a fairly high MSRP and sells generally pretty well – I’m sure the tooling has more than paid for itself, too.
The BoF market is saturated, but Honda has found its truck niche within the truckified crossover demographic and they seem content to stick to it.
I have no hate for the Ridgeline personally, but it’s never going to be a volume seller due to it’s limited bed space and high MSRP for a truck less objectively capable than a BOF, even if most people don’t truly need that capability. Same goes for a BOF SUV like the 4Runner, which has still ever increasing sales figures despite the high prices and increased competition. I don’t think the BOF SUV market is actually saturated, there is a large percentage of people moving into them as they get more comfortable and fuel efficient, and as the outdoors lifestyle signaling vehicle becomes more popular.
All of this is not even to say they should kill the ridgeline and passport as they are, but having a more rugged BOF alternative alongside would sell like crazy, especially if they stick with the V6 while everyone else moves to smaller turbo engines.
I don’t think Honda really cares that much if it’s a volume seller, personally. It doesn’t sell in CR-V numbers but it sells consistently and like I said before, the tooling has probably paid for itself at this point.
I agree it seems weird to develop a BOF truck in the big 2025; but when you look at just how well the Tacoma/4Runner and the Wrangler/Bronco are doing, Honda is absolutely missing out. Honda has street cred with off roaders due to their powersports stuff (dirtbikes, quads, and side-by-sides). I could actually see a world where a Hondaized Frontier based truck and SUV does really well. Nissans name is in the dumps, so if you assure people this new BOF vehicle has Honda quality, I bet many jump to it.
But where are those buyers coming from? If people aren’t buying Frontiers, even though those have a few decades of US sales, why would they buy a rebadged version of an already slow-selling truck from a first-time player in the BoF market?
Because Honda’s reputation is better than Nissan’s. Honda has dirtbikes, Nissan does not.
It turns out that rebadging works fantastically well on non-enthusiasts. Look at the Prologue for an example. Exact same mechanicals, better sales with the H on the front.
It also was the only variant of that platform available with CarPlay and benefitted from the EV tax credit.
Rachel was a pain the ass. And I’m being very polite here.
I think that Matt’s speculation on Honda using Nissan to take the Ridgeline to new Frontiers is a good idea. They should take it any way they want it and welcome the team up opportunity with open arms.
I’m convinced that Matt and I are the same person, at least as far as musical tastes are concerned. But I’ve never heard of ROBYN until now. I shall correct this immediately. This track ain’t bad. Looking forward to hearing more.
It worked for Microsoft. I’m a tad concerned that a software monopoly is coming to cars, but if Rivian and VW want to do their thing, I’m willing to let them to it for now.
How long until Tesla starts licensing their software to other automakers? They seem to be good at it, while other automakers are not
Re Honda: their first US SUV efforts were basically rebadged ISUZU Rodeo’s and Troopers. Nissan fills product gaps they are missing; with viable product, and has manufacturing capacity. May be cheaper to lease than to buy.
Please, please, please, harmonize US/EU standards.
I get the appeal of Dopamine, but it can’t hold a candles to Peaches’ ‘Fuck the Pain Away’ you shared a while back Matt. 😉
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2rakm9
PS: until googling this morning, I wasn’t aware that Dailymotion still existed.
I only knew Robyn from her 90s hits, and even then, only vaguely.
Glad to see all these old-timer still cranking it out. Kind of gives me hope.
Whoa, she covered Buffalo Stance in 2022? Time for some YouTubing on this Swedish full-circle.
I thought about this possibility last year. It makes sense in the current trade environment of “uncertainty.” I’m eager to see what product they come up with.
I can’t tell if a Nissan-based Honda is a better or worse idea than a BMW-based Toyota. Maybe about even
I’d bet on the Nissonda. Similar culture and philosophy, lower cultural change. Don’t forget that many ‘must have’ Japanese cars 35 years ago were Nissan. Honda had no competitor to a 300ZX Turbo. The NSX was a superior Moonshot, but not a competitor.
The key takeaway in your comment is that the last time Nissans were desirable was 35 years ago.
Yeah but Nissan has some decent vehicles that Honda could rebadge and sell. They would sell better as a Honda.
Like what?
Sentra – Civic is better
Kicks – HRV is better
Rouge – CR-V is better
Murano – Pilot is better
Z – Irrelevant as it is sport car
That leaves the Pathfinder, Frontier, and Armada IF Honda wants to do something BoF
What with tariffs, price escalation, and economic “uncertainty” there could be a business case for a simple sub-Civic sub-Sentra entry level car. Since the current HRV and Kicks also grew in size (and sophistication) maybe something badge-engineered and similar to each of those cars prior iterations, with: FWD-only, simple trim options, pseudo-suv look, value price for singles, olds, and lowish income families. It’s working for GM (Trax).
Keep in mind a new Civic is bigger and better equipped than an early ’90s Accord. The Fit is long dead, they no longer have an entry level car. The first Honda/Acura SUV were rebadged Isuzu.
The thing is, much of what Nissan had going for them 35 years ago is still kicking around to one degree or another. It’s just hidden below a layer of malaise in the form of poor styling and terrible CVTs. The Z platform and the Frontier platform are both almost that old. And their 4-cylinders are nothing new. Pair their current vehicles, which largely have solid bones, with Honda’s hybrid tech and I’d be interested.
I’d consider a 400Z if I did not have better things to do with that money at this point. Thought the same of the 350 and 370… But, I got a family and a kid. Else, in 2004 I may have been cross shopping 350Z, Mustang GT, Mazda RX8. TBH, overall a better trade.