Home » It’s Absurd That You Still Can’t Buy A True Full-Sized RAM Family SUV

It’s Absurd That You Still Can’t Buy A True Full-Sized RAM Family SUV

Ramcharger Suv Ts

Car makers are rather predictable. When the Mustang stampeded onto the scene in 1964, it didn’t take more than a few years before we saw plenty of “pony car” facsimile competitors. In the same way, after first appearing in 1994 the Subaru Outback crossovers were joined by a half dozen similar products in short order. If something is successful in the automotive world, you can be damn sure that it will be copied as quickly as the other brands can get a rival to showrooms. Why shouldn’t they? In fact, I’m usually shocked when I see the rare cases where other car makers don’t copy a winning formula, or they take a flat-out eternity to do so.

One of those products that took forever and a day to get real Big Three rivals is the full-sized pickup-based station wagon with more than two rows of seats (and, later, four doors) that General Motors arguably pioneered as the Suburban. Why did the other Detroit giants drop the ball in making their own profitable heavy-duty family haulers? More importantly, where the hell is our RAM Tahoe and Suburban?

Vidframe Min Top
Vidframe Min Bottom

A Century Of The ‘Burbs

If you ask seasoned car geeks how long General Motors has been making Suburbans, many might say five or six decades. They’d be wrong; it’s hard to believe, but this massive, tall wagon will soon be celebrating its 100th birthday, with the first example having been released in 1935.

1935 Chevy Suburban
General Motors

Note that early ones only had two doors up front to access the three rows of seats, which sounds like something requiring major gymnastics to get to the “way back.”

1935 Chevy Suburban
General Motors
1935 Chevy Suburban
General Motors

In 1967, a rear side door was finally offered, but only on the passenger’s side.

1935 Chevy Suburban
General Motors

Over the years, the Suburban (either Chevy or GMC branded) changed as new full-sized GM trucks were introduced. Starting with the 1973 models, all Suburbans finally became four-doors.

1935 Chevy Suburban
General Motors

With each new generation, the ‘Burban became more capable but also a bit more car-like to make it a viable option for more people, even if they didn’t want to get 4WD for off-roading or power to tow monstrous 6000-pound campers.

1978 Suburban 8 9 3
General Motors

Naturally, the clean GMT400 version is a big Autopian favorite here.

1935 Chevy Suburban
General Motors

The Suburban (and later the smaller wheelbase Chevy Tahoe-sized versions) proved popular enough to survive numerous financial and energy crises despite their massive thirst and size. Niche-player International Harvester created something similar with the Travelall, and Jeep offered the four-door Wagoneer starting in 1962, but this two-row wagon was a bit smaller than the Suburban and obviously stayed stuck in a time warp where it didn’t really change until its 1991 demise.

What about the other Big Guys, Ford and Chrysler? For much of that time, they offered absolutely nothing similar. Well, almost nothing. Let me explain.

Looks Like A Distorted Bronco From Street View

It’s not that Ford never considered a Suburban fighter decades ago. Photographic evidence shows that they mocked up a fifth-generation (1967-72) F-Series into something dubbed internally as the “Midhorn”. It’s more Tahoe-like than Suburban, but it looks like it might have been a winner and real competitor for GM’s family truck-based wagon entries.

1935 Chevy Suburban
Ford

Why did it never see the light of day?  I think the reason is the same thing that killed Ford’s Carousel minivan proposal: Henry Ford II. “Hank the Deuce” apparently didn’t want anything with a Blue Oval on it cannibalizing sales of his station wagons like the big LTD (“LTD” meaning “Limited”, as in limited to how many he could sell). That was likely a good short-term decision, but a tragic long-term one.

Ford corporate might have turned a blind eye, but the aftermarket certainly took notice of this gap. A number of outside coachbuilders like Centurion (famous for those weird van tow vehicles) took eighth- and ninth-generation Ford trucks and converted them into essentially heavy-duty four-door Broncos.

Centurion 2 8 9
Centurion

Centurion even went so far as to offer them in both F-150 chassis and heavy-duty F-350 versions:

Centurion 8 9 Fronts
Centurion

That full-ton F-350-based model with the 7.3-liter diesel was a little longer than the Suburban, so it could out-tow and out-carry the GM products. You probably already know this, but coachbuilders don’t give their services away; at over $40,000 in 1988 dollars, the cost of these converted Fords was not cheap. You’d likely only pick one over a Suburban if you needed the towing capability, liked the engines better, or wouldn’t be caught dead with a bow tie logo on your grille. Only around 4000 were made between 1988 and 1996. Oh, a boomerang TV antenna!

Centurion 3 8 9
Centurion
1990 Ford Centurion C 150 Classic Exterior 003 Rear Three Quarters
Bring A Trailer

Obviously, Ford finally wised up in the late 1990s to give us the Expedition and Excursion to fight the GM juggernauts over sixty years after the first Suburban appeared. Still, why was Chrysler ignoring this market?

Silence Of The RAMs: Mopar Offers No-car

To be fair, Dodge did offer a pickup-based utility, albeit a more sporting proposition than mom-and-the-kids family hauler. Starting with the new-for-’72 D-Series as a basis, Dodge launched a roofless two-door called the Ramcharger in 1974 – basically a Mopar interpretation of the concurrent Blazer and GMC Jimmy.

Ramcharger 8 10 3
Chrysler

Like those GM utes, they were essentially chopped-wheelbase pickups with open beds from the windshield back and offered with removable hardtops or a canvas roof. The earliest models, like the one shown below, even had frameless door glass (but quickly were changed to add the pickup’s solid framed doors by June of ’74). And that console ice chest is pretty damn cool!

Ramcharger 8 10 74 2
Chrysler

In 1981, a refreshed model debuted that included the “RAM” brand name and the revisions given to Mopar’s now-aging line of trucks. The metal roof was now fully fixed in place. The best addition on these facelifted models had to be those cool rear quarter windows that wrapped into the edges of the roof.

1982 Ramcharger 8 10 3
Chrysler
1982 Ramcharger 3 8 9
Chrysler

This old warhorse soldiered on until 1993 in the United States, and proved so popular in Mexico that Chrysler continued to sell it there for three more years. When it became clear to Chrysler Mexico that the U.S. was not going to release a replacement, they took matters into their own hands in 1999 and created a version based on the exciting new-for-1994 “big rig” style Ram.

You’ll note the creative use of a Dodge Caravan tailgate structure and rear backlight. It might be a little convoluted in places, but it’s rather brilliant for the reported AMC-like $3 million pittance required to tool it. Mercedes Streeter has written about this one in detail; it only lasted for two years in Mexico, and when it disappeared, that was the end for full-size factory Mopar utes.

Ramcharger 99 8 10
Chrysler (Mexico)

As with the Centurion Fords, the aftermarket saw a need and stepped in to turn some examples of the newer-style RAMs into Suburban-esque wagons. In many cases, coachbuilders used GM or Ford parts and stuck them onto an existing RAM pickup. This creation of a 1999 truck below was for sale a while back; as expensive as the Ford Centurions were, I can imagine this thing must have cost even more to build. At least they invested the work into a 2500 with a Cummins to have something special.

Ramcharger Xl 8 8 9

Ramcharger Xl 6 8 9
Facebook Marketplace via Bangshift

The proof-of-concept above shows the potential for the idea. Time to get an image of the latest 1500 and get started and a brand-new factory version.

Engage Photoshop … Kick Out The RAMs!

Not surprisingly, there are many, many renderings online showing concepts of RAM pickups converted to Suburban- or Tahoe-like utes. I won’t post them here since a.) legally I can’t show other people’s work without permission and b.) I don’t like any of the ones I’ve seen anyway. Most illustrators just add side window treatments scraped from or identical to an Expedition or a GM truck; how can you have a Ramcharger without those cool-looking wrapover rear quarter windows? Why would you want a big ute that looks just like the other guys anyway?

Also, I KNOW there is already a new “Ramcharger” electric truck, but honestly this classis SUV deserves rights to the name. If not, maybe we have to call it the Trail Duster to reference the rare Plymouth version of the 1974-81 Ramcharger.

I’ll start with a Tahoe-style shorter model based on a 1500:

Std Ramcharger Side View 8 10 2
Stellantis

Let’s stretch it to a Suburban-sized version as well:

Ramcharge Suburban 8 10
Stellantis

In back, I think the double doors are a bit of a lash-up, and a full lift-up tailgate isn’t befitting a “real” Ramcharger. I’ll add a lift-up hatch and fold-down tailgate, but with the split put down lower as on an Expedition to allow for easier cargo access. I tried doing funky things with Durango-style taillights and black panels as on the latest big Ford models, and it just didn’t look right. I kept it simple since to me that kind of no-nonsense approach says “RAM”.

Ramcharger Rear View 8 10
Stellantis

The end result is something that you barely look at twice because you assume that it already exists. Why shouldn’t it? It looks great; the distinctiveness of the nose is matched by the uniqueness of the rear greenhouse. And could a 2500 version be offered? Did someone say Cummins? Why not? It’s a can’t miss.

Let’s RAM A Hit Out Of The Park

The best part of this new Ramcharger? Profitability of large sport utilities- especially the luxury versions- is typically off the scale. I remember reading something years back about how one Navigator sale packed more profit than selling three or four Focuses (or is that Foci?).

Come on, Stellantis, in the last few years, you’ve given us the Alfa Hornet, a Charger with fake engine noises, plus a Jeep Wrangler pickup and a Wagoneer that nobody wants. You lookin’ for an easy winner? This is it. As Burt Reynolds said in Smokey and the Bandit, “Do if for the money, for the glory, and for the fun … but mostly for the money.”

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Ranwhenparked
Member
Ranwhenparked
5 months ago

Make RAM Dodge Again

The Bishop
Member
The Bishop
5 months ago
Reply to  Ranwhenparked

I’ve always called them Dodge

Ranwhenparked
Member
Ranwhenparked
5 months ago
Reply to  The Bishop

Most RAM owners seem to, as well

Hell, I have a 1500 Classic currently assigned as a company car, and the folder of paperwork that came with it was marked “23 Dodge – white” by our fleet manager

Luxrage
Member
Luxrage
5 months ago
Reply to  Ranwhenparked

This always baffled me, I get it that the RAM truck was really good, but it was the Dodge brothers trucks that made the company! Why split the trucks off of that name! You think they’d lean heavily into 100 years of building DODGE trucks!

Last edited 5 months ago by Luxrage
Ranwhenparked
Member
Ranwhenparked
5 months ago
Reply to  Luxrage

Originally, the idea was to allow the truck business to be more easily sold off separately if the 2009 bailout failed, and Chrysler Group went into liquidation. That’s literally it

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
5 months ago

This is a much nicer looking take on this segment than the Jeep versions. I am assuming that the C&D pillars would likely need to be about twice as thick as shown. But that could be behind the tinted glass to maintain the overall appearance.

The issue, of course, is the Stellantis issue. They simply can’t develop even a halfway decent product. This would likely follow the fate of all other Stellantis products and end up at the bottom of any comparison within a year of being released, ending up on dealer lots.

The World of Vee
Member
The World of Vee
5 months ago

Chrysler messed this up so hard it’s probably too late for them, but really let’s talk about how the Grand Wagoneer and the Navigator purport to be Escalade competitors but neither of them have a high performance variant.

You want to beat the king? And you give us the Navi and GW? Nope. Not gonna happen. The Escalade is so power a brand it literally propped up Cadillac for like a decade or two.

Andrew Daisuke
Andrew Daisuke
5 months ago

You could easily argue (and I do) that the Escalade saved the entire Cadillac brand itself.

Lizardman in a human suit
Lizardman in a human suit
5 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Daisuke

You could argue Escalade IS the entire Cadillac brand. I can’t name any other caddy, and dont really notice the smaller ones anyway.

The World of Vee
Member
The World of Vee
5 months ago

the EVs they make are selling gang busters, there’s finally competition

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
Member
Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
5 months ago

Well until about two years ago, all of the other Cadillacs didn’t have names, just letters and numbers.

ATS, CTS, CT4, CT5, XTS, XT5, XT6, SRX…

Church
Member
Church
5 months ago

Those windows are too big for what most consumers seem to want. It’d never sell. For my taste, those windows are almost big enough.

The Bishop
Member
The Bishop
5 months ago
Reply to  Church

You don’t need windows. All cameras. Sunlight? Buyers don’t want that

Church
Member
Church
5 months ago
Reply to  The Bishop

If it doesn’t feel like a tank, what is even the point?!

A Reader
Member
A Reader
5 months ago

It is mind boggling that RAM doesn’t offer this. It would be an instant success if for no other reason than it would give buyers a chance to be different. Which I swear is why anyone buys a stupid Waggoneer. RAM makes perfectly useful trucks, building an SUV version is certainly not rocket science, so … why?

JP15
JP15
5 months ago
Reply to  A Reader

I’m going to guess the fact that Stellantis is basically broke has a lot to do with it.

JP15
JP15
5 months ago

Stellantis has this, it’s just sold as the Jeep Wagoneer.

A Reader
Member
A Reader
5 months ago
Reply to  The Bishop

LOL

JP15
JP15
5 months ago
Reply to  The Bishop

Well, you got me there, haha!

Would a RAM branded Wagoneer sell better though? Maybe if it was cheaper? Weird to think of Ram as the low-cost Jeep alternative though.

I’m not sure why anyone outside of law enforcement would buy a Durango these days.

Mr E
Member
Mr E
5 months ago
Reply to  The Bishop

The Wagoneer is also much, much (did I say much?) uglier than your rendering, in my humble opinion.

Buzz
Buzz
5 months ago

The target demo of RAM is deadbeat dads and drunk drivers. There’s no need for a family hauler when the only family time is a court-appointed Thursday afternoon supervised visitation.

BlownGP
BlownGP
5 months ago
Reply to  Buzz

That’s bullshit. That can be said about any car. I’ve had a RAM for 12 years and I’m a great father and I hardly drink alcohol.

Andrew Daisuke
Andrew Daisuke
5 months ago
Reply to  Buzz

deadbeat dads and drunk drivers with bad credit.

Ranwhenparked
Member
Ranwhenparked
5 months ago
Reply to  Buzz

Family hackers is the bread and butter of what RAM sells, full-size crew cab pickups with short beds are the sedans of the 2020s

Church
Member
Church
5 months ago
Reply to  Buzz

I was absolutely going to argue against this yesterday, but though “nah, the internet doesn’t need that”. Last night, I saw a new Ram commercial and, yeah, you right.

Ingue86
Ingue86
5 months ago

I bought a Wagoneer L after comparing it to the Expedition Max, Suburban, Yukon XL and other smaller vehicles. The Wagoneer rode the best, felt good on power, and had the highest towing numbers. Biggest seller was the front visibility. The GM twins felt like sitting in a Camaro with the limited view forward. The Wagoneer felt like a normal pickup.

Aside from all that, I’m most interested in the hybrid Wagoneer. If the Ramcharger specs translate to the Wagoneer, it will be a full Excursion / Suburban 2500 competitor. Check out the towing and payload. Both my 2500 Suburban and Excursion are rated at 12k towing. The Ramcharger is possibly rated at 14k? I want a large SUV that can max the non-CDL weight limits of 26k lb. Give me both payload and tow capacity!

SBMtbiker
SBMtbiker
5 months ago

The Jeep Wagoneer and grand Wagoneer fill this spot for Stilanntis!

Eggsalad
Eggsalad
5 months ago

Historically, Chrysler simply didn’t have a lot of money and just chose to put their development dollars elsewhere. If you wanted something that could seat more than 6 (or 8 in a 60s/70s wagon) they’d be happy to show you a nice B-series van, or Ram Van, or Sprinter, or ProMaster.

Last edited 5 months ago by Eggsalad
Pit-Smoked Clutch
Member
Pit-Smoked Clutch
5 months ago
Reply to  Eggsalad

When an OEM is developing something like this, they spend a billion or two on the vehicle, and then a billion or two on the powertrains, and then the last few million go into deciding what it should look like and be branded as. (Not necessarily in that order, but you get the idea)

I’d put money on the Ram variant being in the pipeline and cancelled because the chip shortage was on by the time it was done and it could be sold for a higher profit margin as a $100k Jeep.

I don't hate manual transmissions
Member
I don't hate manual transmissions
5 months ago

That makes a lot of sense. You may be onto something there.

PaysOutAllNight
PaysOutAllNight
5 months ago

I’ve long said that discontinuing the Aspen was one of Chrysler’s biggest mistakes. Just as luxury SUVs were catching on, Chrysler discontinued theirs.

Most people didn’t know they even existed, even some who worked for Chrysler.

It was a Durango underneath, but could have been moved to a truck chassis instead of being discontinued.

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
5 months ago

I had one as a rental way way back.

The only thing I remember of it, besides feeling bigger than it should, was the insanely soft suspension and how much it wallowed and rolled. It couldn’t maintain composure to save it’s life – wheras the Durango rentals I’d had were far better composed. I genuinely felt that it was not safe to take an on/off ramp any faster than a crawl.

PaysOutAllNight
PaysOutAllNight
5 months ago
Reply to  Spikedlemon

I’m not saying the Aspen was a great entry as-is (although the one owner I knew loved his), but that it was a highly profitable market segment that they simply walked away from just as it was heating up.

Lockleaf
Lockleaf
5 months ago

I agree with you. The Aspen itself wasn’t great. Way more badge engineered than even the 300C vs Charger. But I don’t think they should have walked away completely. Jeep has never felt like the right place for the luxury suv

First Last
Member
First Last
5 months ago

I think a lot of GM’s (and to a lesser extent Ford’s) success is in how well they differentiate their SUVs from their pickups. In profile, the Tahoe etc have a very non-pickup C-pillar that does most of the work to make it not look like just a pickup with a bed cap on it. Ford does it by blacking out all the pillars. And both have unique front ends that show strong family resemblance but aren’t actually shared with the pickups.

This photoshop is fine, but looks more like a coach build based on the pickup vs a ground-up factory effort.

Last edited 5 months ago by First Last
Kasey
Kasey
5 months ago
Reply to  First Last

Yep, and GM and Ford are able to sell
multiple variants of the same truck since their dealerships are typically separate. Why have a Ram rebadge of a Wagoneer on the same lot? The Yukon and Tahoe and Navigator and Expedition are on separate dealer lots.

Dogisbadob
Dogisbadob
5 months ago

The current Wagoneer shouldn’t be a Jeep but a Dodge or Chrysler instead.

I made this rendering on oppo

https://opposite-lock.com/assets/uploads/files/1751480613046-durangoramswb.jpg

JDE
JDE
5 months ago
Reply to  Dogisbadob

This is true, but the Wagoneer is making inroads into the GM sales side of this, not sure they will give that up? But I do think they should. or at least make the Wagoneer a rugged option and a version of it the Chrysler flagship.

Ranwhenparked
Member
Ranwhenparked
5 months ago
Reply to  JDE

They sell like 40,000 of the regular Wagoneer per year and 12,000 of the Grand Wagoneer, that somehow doesnt seem that great? The extremely elderly Pacifica moved over 109,000 last year, in a market segment that most people consider on the brink of death, as opposed to one that’s undergoing endless growth

The Dude
The Dude
5 months ago

This is more of a testament to the bland styling of modern-day Ram trucks, but it took me a minute to realize I wasn’t looking at a Tahoe.

Church
Member
Church
5 months ago
Reply to  The Dude

This! In the ’90s, the Ram styling was cutting edge. Now, it’s just another blob. I suppose when the front end is 75% grill your options may be limited, though.

Michael Beranek
Member
Michael Beranek
5 months ago

It’s baffling why Chrysler missed this train in the early Aughts, when it woulda mattered!
Also, if you call it “Ramcharger”, you’re risking the wrath of Bill Stephens. And since he’s indirectly responsible for the existence of WKRP in Cincinnati, don’t mess with him.

Petefm
Member
Petefm
5 months ago

Can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not. If not, early aughts = Daimler (who didn’t understand the American market) -> Cerberus (who just wanted to strip it for parts) -> financial crisis -> FCA (who didn’t understand the American market) -> Stellantis (who doesn’t seem to understand anything).
All along the, Chrysler has been unwanted and / or broke. It’s an achievement for them to have made it this far.

Michael Beranek
Member
Michael Beranek
5 months ago
Reply to  Petefm

It’s not. How cheap would it have been to put a long steel roof on a (very handsome and popular) Dodge Ram, throw some leather seats in, and sell it against the Denali/Navigator? They could even have done a Chrysler version (Imperial, all the way) for literal pennies.
They used to be great at badge engineering. Then, when it mattered, they somehow forgot how.

Last edited 5 months ago by Michael Beranek
Petefm
Member
Petefm
5 months ago

For sure. I don’t disagree with you. My point is that they’ve been under incompetent or uncaring ownership for most of the last 25 years and thus have missed many opportunities. The early aughts were especially bad with the Daimler “merger.”

At least they’ve had some successes along the way with the pickups, Wrangler, Grand Cherokee, Pacifica, and Charger/Challenger/300.

06dak
06dak
5 months ago
Reply to  Petefm

They were knee-deep in developing one around this time, but typical Chrysler “3 years too late” plus the financial crisis and bankruptcy effectively killed it for another decade.

Unfortunately when they did decide to make it, they made it an upscale Jeep instead – which brought with it too many differences to share parts and drove up the price too much to be a volume seller.

Dan Parker
Dan Parker
5 months ago

Ram Ramcharger sounds like a GI Joe character…

4jim
4jim
5 months ago
Reply to  Dan Parker

Or a patriotic porn performer.

Lizardman in a human suit
Lizardman in a human suit
5 months ago
Reply to  4jim

And now I have the image of a macho man savage/ron jeremy hybrid with an American flag thong in my head. Thanks for that, as if I didn’t have enough nightmare fuel in my head.

Bizness Comma Nunya
Bizness Comma Nunya
5 months ago

It’s called the Wagoneer.

4jim
4jim
5 months ago

While Stellantis(??) is sticking RAM logos onto the Wagoneer and cutting the price by 5 digit numbers.

  1. Rebody the Gladiator and call it a Dakota.
  2. Do the enclosing photoshop above trick with the Gladiator and make a long enclosed Wrangler XXL for more cargo room, dog room, or so people above 6ft tall can sleep inside.
Tbird
Member
Tbird
5 months ago

Leave it to The Bishop to design a better Wagoneer in an afternoon.

Dottie
Member
Dottie
5 months ago

Although I think the photoshop job is pretty handsome, the Wagoneer is already on the same platform as the RAM 1500 so doing a badge and fascia swap on it is probably not too outlandish imo. Circles back to my comment a few days ago about Stellantis shoving too much nonsense into Jeep when it has plenty of other brands to that’ll fit their existing vehicles better.

V10omous
Member
V10omous
5 months ago

 and a Wagoneer that nobody wants. You lookin’ for an easy winner? This is it.

These statements would seem to be at odds.

The Wagoneer (not the Grand) starts right where a Ram-branded version would, and right where the Tahoe and Expedition do.

The fact that it doesn’t sell well either shows how hard it is to break into this market. GM is going to take its majority share, Ford will take a reasonable amount of what’s left, and Toyota/Nissan/Jeep will fight over the rest.

The time to do this was 30 years ago, building off the ’94 Ram success and trying to lock up market share before Ford established themselves and GM thought to invent the Denali and Escalade. Now, it’s just too late.

Doughnaut
Member
Doughnaut
5 months ago
Reply to  V10omous

GM is going to take its majority share, Ford will take a reasonable amount of what’s left, and Toyota/Nissan/Jeep will fight over the rest.

I’d say this is because the GM offerings have been so good so consistently, not because of of some weird missed opportunity 30 years ago. If Ford/Toyota/Nissan/Jeep had a real ringer, it’d start gobbling up market share. Ford has gotten close a few times, and others have had a few decent offerings, but the real problem is that they’ve been bested by the respective contemporary GM each time.

V10omous
Member
V10omous
5 months ago
Reply to  Doughnaut

I think that’s mostly been true, and GM has earned that share. There isn’t really a realistic scenario where they aren’t the leaders in this segment no matter what the competition does.

What I was trying to say is that if Dodge had come out with a full sizer in the 90s instead of the Durango, building off the runaway success of the Ram at that time, I could easily see them in Ford’s position now, with respectable sales and an established position. The Expedition didn’t exist until ’97 or ’98. There was a window to jump in there.

Tbird
Member
Tbird
5 months ago
Reply to  The Bishop

TBH a ’95 Ram ‘Suburban’ likely would have hit it out of the park.

Doughnaut
Member
Doughnaut
5 months ago
Reply to  V10omous

It doesn’t seem like it would take much to be where Ford is. The Expedition is fine, but I’m not sure who is buying it over the GM offerings besides die-hard Ford people (or people who get A-Plan pricing).

V10omous
Member
V10omous
5 months ago
Reply to  Doughnaut

Stellantis, Toyota, and Nissan would all kill to be where Ford is at though. And they’ve all been trying, with minimal success, to be there for years now.

https://tfltruck.com/2025/07/q2-2025-full-size-suvs-sales-report/

Doughnaut
Member
Doughnaut
5 months ago
Reply to  V10omous

Not sure I would call whatever Stellantis and Nissan have been doing for the past ~decade as valid efforts in trying to capture any of that market share. The new Armada seems like a breath of fresh air though.

Toyota has made good stuff, it’s just been oddly positioned/designed if their goal has been to directly take on the Tahoe/Suburban segments.

Tbird
Member
Tbird
5 months ago
Reply to  Doughnaut

Do you prefer Ford exterior/interior fitment/trim/style/powertrain or GM? Both have strengths/weaknesses.

Doughnaut
Member
Doughnaut
5 months ago
Reply to  Tbird

In this segment? I’m going with the GM all day every day, across all price levels.

Exterior I’d rank them in order: Cadillac, GMC, Lincoln, Chevy, Ford.

Interior is probably the same but swap Lincoln and Chevy.

Powertrains I’d rank them: LT4, L87, EcoBoost, L84, 3.0 Duramax.

Tbird
Member
Tbird
5 months ago
Reply to  Doughnaut

Expedition has a BIG share of this market and was first with IRS. GM was always the 900lb gorilla with Suburban, but Ford has captured significant market share. As development costs are shared with F series this is a market coup.

Dad still talks about a ’75 2wd Suburban he bought (purchasing manager) with a 454.

Last edited 5 months ago by Tbird
Cheap Bastard
Member
Cheap Bastard
5 months ago
Reply to  Tbird

The Suburban is more of an up to 7,500lb gorilla.

Doughnaut
Member
Doughnaut
5 months ago
Reply to  Tbird

Their big market share is still less than half of GM.

Hazdazos
Hazdazos
5 months ago

So you mean a Jeep Grand Wagoneer?

Isn’t this exactly that? A Ram-branded 3-row body-on-frame SUV wouldn’t be that much cheaper than a Jeep-branded one. So why compete against your own corporate cousins? They only made 12k Grand Wagoneers, so it isn’t exactly a hot seller compared to the 105k Chevy Tahoes and 44k Suburbans GM sold.

Plus, I think Stellantis has much bigger problems than worrying about a vehicle that might sell in such low volumes. Their reputation is shot. Their quality and reliability is seen as shit by most people, and they’ve done little to improve that for years now.

Goose
Member
Goose
5 months ago

The Wagoneer should have been Ram or Dodge; the Grand Wagoneer should have been Chrysler. End of story. Part of the issue with FCA / Stellantis was seeing Jeep as a cash cow and trying to make it everything to everyone. It directly lead to the starvation of product from other brands as well as watering down what Jeep is.

Last edited 5 months ago by Goose
V10omous
Member
V10omous
5 months ago
Reply to  Goose

I don’t think Chrysler would have had any more success selling a $100K vehicle than Jeep did.

The gamble obviously hasn’t worked out, but they weren’t exactly wrong to assume Jeep appealed to a wide variety of consumers, including affluent ones. Plenty of wealthy people own Wranglers and Grand Cherokees; the issues are that the full-size segment is dominated by GM, and the actual execution of the GW wasn’t great.

Doughnaut
Member
Doughnaut
5 months ago
Reply to  V10omous

Personally, I think it should have been a Chrysler because it plays up to zero of what separates a Jeep from any other domestic brand. If it wears the Jeep badge, it should be a freakin’ Jeep. Simply being Stellantis luxury SUV isn’t what makes Jeep a Jeep, that’s Chrysler or a high trim Ram.

I’m not saying it would have sold more, but as a vehicle, it would have made more sense.

The Grand Wagoneer should have been a true Land Cruiser (J200 and J300) or Land Rover competitor.

Goose
Member
Goose
5 months ago
Reply to  V10omous

I do think so, because it would have made for a better Chrysler. The current Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer don’t have what attract a lot of Jeep buyers (off road capability or at least the appearance of that).

The Sequoia did that for the current gen by going back to solid axle. While I get this isn’t the best argument since the Sequoia hasn’t been a super successful seller, I think it’s the general direction Jeep should have actually gone. It would have at least given Jeep a better chance securing the loyal buyers who buy Jeeps because they are good off road. The direction they ended up going just put them directly against GM and Ford product and Jeep just flat out didn’t do as good of a job of them at it. If the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer were more off road capable they could have at least say “yeah, we aren’t as good at A, B, or C because it can do X, Y, or Z when GM and Ford flat out can’t.” The current market position of the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer means you really got to like just the Jeep brand and basically ignore everything else (it’s not any better off road than the competition, it’s not a better SUV, it’s not more efficient, it’s not as reliable, it’s not as luxurious, etc).

Goose
Member
Goose
5 months ago
Reply to  The Bishop

Doesn’t that make it the perfect Chrysler then? Back of the pack luxury is what Chrysler is all about, right?

Clark B
Member
Clark B
5 months ago
Reply to  Goose

It is puzzling. If the Wagoneer took styling cues from the original, fair enough, make it a Jeep. But it doesn’t, and if you sold it as a Chrysler I would never connect it with the Wagoneers of the past. Chrysler desperately needs something new and a luxury SUV could have been immensely helpful there. Plus, since when has Jeep been a luxury brand?

Last edited 5 months ago by Clark B
Ranwhenparked
Member
Ranwhenparked
5 months ago
Reply to  Goose

I do think Stellantis has badly overestimated the luxury appeal of several of their brands, in a world of $60,000 base model Dodge Chargers and six figure Jeeps, I dont know where their confidence came from, but there is no past history to justify any of it

The original Grand Wagoneer was considered a very expensive status symbol when it was new, and its buyers had the highest median household net worth of any American nameplate, and it sold for $29,000 in the early 1990s, which is under $70,000, inflation-adjusted. So, even the glory days that the new GW is attempting to recapture were actually more modest than what Stellantis expects now.

Last edited 5 months ago by Ranwhenparked
Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
5 months ago

Who needs a Ram Ramcharger when the profit-laden Jeep Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer being sold across the showroom is selling so well?

Oh – Wait…

Last edited 5 months ago by Urban Runabout
PaysOutAllNight
PaysOutAllNight
5 months ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

The question to Stellantis was, “Should you make luxury SUV under the Chrysler brand, or make a Jeep that isn’t a Jeep and dilutes the only strong brand you have left in North America?”

Stellantis made the wrong decision.

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
5 months ago

I’ll disagree – Because the Chrysler Aspen was a proven, massive sales dud.

The issue w/ Wagoneer is that it doesn’t look like anything like a Wagoneer – The profile is straight up 1970’s GM Colonnade – and gets terrible mileage.

Then Jeep decides that in order to compete with Escalade – Just put a “Grand” in front of their non-Wagoneer?

JohnJL
JohnJL
5 months ago

Correct choices:
1. The Durango had decent styling, should have or now put a proper body on frame, all the options Karen or her boat towing husband need.
2. Jeepify the Jeep. Lose the Grand Wagoneer as a model, make it a trim at the top of a proper Jeep.

Signed, Landcruiser owner who tried to buy a RAM but gave up after the dealer experience.

JohnJL
JohnJL
5 months ago
Reply to  JohnJL

Also not a deadbeat dad or alcoholic.

Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar
5 months ago

Didn’t I see that the rationale was that the original Grand Wagoneer sold to a bunch of old money types in the late 80’s, so the Stellantis bosses tried to capture that again?

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
5 months ago
Reply to  Vic Vinegar

Basically, Yes.

Because the people who bought Grand Wagoneers in the 80’s/early 90’s were people who had a Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Lincoln or Cadillac on the other side of the garage.

Now that those brands have big, medium and small SUVs – there’s no need for those folks to traipse down to the Jeep dealer.

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