Welcome back! We’ve been getting a little big for our britches with the last couple of letters, so today we’re going to bring it back down to Earth with the letter L, and take a look at a couple of FWD luxury sedans. They’re both reasonably-priced, they both run well, and they were both built this century.
I don’t have access to our page-view metrics or anything, but I can see the vote and comment totals plain as day, and it’s obvious you weren’t big fans of yesterday’s choices. No problem; they can’t always be hits. Gassers seem to be a love-it-or-hate-it-style; I’ve always liked them because they look like cartoons come to life. But the majority of you chose the little Kurtis Kraft midget, and I respect that.
That would be my choice too, actually. The car, and the trailer it comes with, are light enough to pull easily with my truck, and there’s a dirt track not far from here – since my wife probably wouldn’t let me just rip around the backyard in it.
All right; let’s get back to something less expensive, and more modern. They say cheap luxury cars are never as good of a deal as they seem, but I think you could probably be safe with these two. They’re not that cheap, and they’re both pretty reliable. Let’s check them out.
2008 Lexus ES 350 – $4,900
Engine/drivetrain: 3.5 liter dual overhead cam V6, six-speed automatic, FWD
Location: Franklin Park, IL
Odometer reading: 137,000 miles
Operational status: Runs and drives great
The Lexus ES has always been overshadowed by the brand’s other models; it gets dismissed as nothing more than a fancy Camry. But honestly, what’s wrong with a fancy Camry? It’s comfortable and reliable, the sort of car you can just live with without any drama. And while it probably wasn’t a great value when it was new, because, well, the Camry exists, but all these years later, depreciation has closed the price gap and you might as well just go for the Lexus.
The ES grew over the years, along with the Camry. Its V6 engine grew as well; by the time it was in its fifth generation, it was all the way up to 3.5 liters. Earlier ES sedans were available with manual transmissions, though they were incredibly rare, so it’s no surprise that this one was available only with an automatic. These cars are known to just pile on the miles, so this one, with only 137,000 of them, should have plenty of life left. The seller says it runs and drives well, but doesn’t provide any details.
It looks nice inside, and the wood and leather of the Lexus version is definitely a cut above the Camry’s velour and plastic. I really like the red-toned wood against the dark gray leather. It has power everything, of course, and the seller says it all works. Not a bad place to spend your time, if you have to commute.
Look up “nondescript” in the dictionary, and you’ll find a picture of the Lexus ES – but there’s a good chance you’ll overlook it there as well. It’s not a bad-looking car, just bland. This one is in good condition, especially for being a Chicago car. I do see a tiny bit of rust starting in the corners of the trunk lid, but as long as it looks all right underneath, you should be good.
2012 Lincoln MKZ – $4,500
Engine/drivetrain: 3.5 liter dual overhead cam V6, six-speed automatic, FWD
Location: Hollywood, FL
Odometer reading: 136,000 miles
Operational status: Runs and drives great
If the Lexus ES is a fancy Toyota Camry, then the Lincoln MKZ is a fancy Ford Fusion. It’s based on the same Ford CD3 platform, and powered by the same Duratec V6. It’s part of a long line of sort of phoned-in mid-sized Lincolns, reaching all the way back to the Versailles in the late ’70s. But it works, if you think of it as just a really nice Ford.
The MKZ comes with the Fusion’s “big” engine, a 3.5 liter V6 that puts out a healthy 265 horsepower. It’s available only with a six-speed automatic, which is kind of a shame, because I’ve heard that the Fusion with a manual is a pretty nice car to drive. This ad is also light on details; all it says is it’s in “excellent condition.” Come on, folks; you’re not charged by the word. Give us some information.
It’s a little worse for wear inside; the steering wheel looks a little worn, and seat covers always make me nervous. The seats might be fine under there, but then, why the covers? On the plus side, the seller does say that everything works, including the all-important-for-Florida air conditioning.
Lincoln did a good job jazzing this car up from the Fusion; it has dramatic front and rear fascias that no one is going to mistake for some rental-counter Ford. And you don’t see nine-spoke wheels very often. I could do without the dark tint, but I do like the color. And it looks like it has been well-maintained.
I’ve always appreciated these fancy versions of everyday cars, especially in the used market. Maybe it comes from fond memories (yes, really) of a Cadillac Cimarron my family had when I was in high school. Yeah, they’re not really luxury cars, but they’re nice, and not any more mechanically complicated than their mundane siblings. And cars this old are largely free from the bullshit that afflicts so many luxury rides these days. These both feel like good deals to me. Which one do you prefer?
I think the Lincoln looks better, but its not enough to pass over the fancy Toyota.
Toyota is better than Ford, period.
The MKZ’s V6 is from Ford, though the I4 came from Mazda. If the MKZ was a hybrid, I might have considered it slightly.
Also, that gen ES/Camry has a timing chain. Even though the 2GR is still impossible to work on, it’s still better than a Ford.
That particular flavor of Duratec also has the infamous internal water pump, and for that reason alone, I’d vote for the ES.
I don’t want either so I flipped a coin. Heads was the Lincoln; tails was the Lexus. Tails won 2 out of 3, so I voted for the Lexus.
I have a similar process that goes:
Me: “I don’t care either way, just flip a coin.”
Coin: “Lincoln.”
Me: “OK, best 2 out of 3 then.”
Coin: “Lincoln.”
Me: “Damn.”
Coin: “Lexus.”
Me: “Finally, the right answer. Lexus it is.”
I flipped a penny since I figured a coin bearing the image of Honest Abe would be the best adjudicator for this contest. The first two flips came up in favor of the Lexus; I just flipped it a third time for the sake of completeness.
It appears even Lincoln himself prefers the Lexus.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I basically went straight for the Lexus, pausing just long enough to make sure there were no detrimental issues listed.
If I needed an comfortable and reliable FWD daily, the Lexus is the obvious choice.
Laughable choice.
It may be boring as all hell…but that Lexus will run for another 100k without much more than some new shoes, brakes, and a few oil changes.
Perfect car to send a kid to college in. Big enough to assist in moving 3x/yr, will carry a keg or two in the trunk, and half the dorm. Oh, right…and all of their books, computer stuff, and project work.
Rust, Dollar Store seat covers, trashed armrest…and that is just what we can see from the photos…questionable mechanicals…this Lincoln will be a nightmare from day one.
Ha. Just did a bunch of work to a friends 08 ES350 with only 165k miles. First off, years ago the car had to have the engine replaced right after they bought it from Carmax (covered under the warranty.) He calls me up about a month ago because he got a 8k estimate to fix the car, went to see about just trading it in to get rid of it and was offered 800 on the trade, so that’s a no go.
I told him I could fix it for a lot less. It wound up needed front and rear brakes/rotors/calipers and parking brake shoes, control arms replaced and engine mounts replaced. Plus somehow the rear bumper came off at speed, so I managed to find a color matching one locally. Also, the trunk wouldn’t open. I fixed all of that for 1/4 of the estimate (and the parking brakes and bumper weren’t a part of the original estimate.) Now it still probably needs shocks and struts soon, and the drivers seat leather is shot (pretty common for Japanese leather of this era,) but probably most concerning to me is the amount of rust underneath, and it’s a southern car. I can only imagine how a Chicago car looks underneath.
The exception that proves the rule.
Nice work wrenching…with enough elbow grease you put a safe car back on the road. Always fun and rewarding to complete these projects.
Most of that brake and suspension stuff is to be expected for a car with 165k miles. I would suspect, this particular ES350 may not have had normal preventive maintenance performed within the prescribed timeframe.
In a rust rot contest between the Lincoln and the Lexus…I would suspect the Lincoln will win based on prior experience.
Test drove a Lexus sedan a few weeks ago…and it struck me that Lexus has take the Oldsmobile award for “the last car you dad will own”.
I’ll take the Lexota as it’s got at least another 250K miles left in it, even if it is just a tarted up Camry.
Early on in my car reviewing career, I was working at a small video post house. I’d set up an internship program with my alma mater, and there was a day when Tom, our intern for that semester, was early. He was waiting in his car (late ’90s Lumina with peeling white paint and patches of gray primer) outside the building. I had an MKZ that week, and during the 40 mile drive to the office, I noticed that, you know, this thing handles pretty well. It was the first year of the 3.5L V6 (Cyclone, which is a cool name that they never really made use of, other than internally) and it had AWD. (And tacky, tacky chrome wheels to go with the huge and cheap-looking plastic Lincoln emblems; at least spring for some cloisonne badges!)
The last turn before the building was a tight 90 degree with lots of room, so, as one does, I gave it the beans. Apparently it looked like Starsky & Hutch. He never knew what I was driving, but he knew that was me.
Anyway – that’s not a reason to buy the Fusion.
Get the Lexus. CD123s age poorly. They rust with enthusiasm. That 3.5 has some entertaining mechanical details that make it difficult and expensive to replace wear items.
It’s been in FL and the interiors don’t hold up. Look at the armrest. Look at the rear seat. the leather is filthy. It’s also not that nice. The ES never really felt super luxurious to me, but it’s a better car, and if you’ve ever been to a Lexus dealer, the customer experience alone is worth it.
Mark, I know you are trying to make an apples-to-apples matchup, but if you really wanted to give Lincoln a chance you should have found a Mark VII or Mark VIII, or even an LS. But an MKZ with excessively worn interior just never stood a chance.
Of course, I’m even more disappointed that we didn’t get Lancia vs Lotus today. Now please don’t make tomorrow Mercury vs Mecedes.
I decided to give the expensive cars a rest for a day. Tomorrow will be another “same idea, different eras” matchup, and I’ll leave it at that.
I know you prefer the list of Craig and FB-MP, but Autotrader Classics can be your best friend for this alphabet series since they have all makes in an alphabetical pull-down menu.
Lancia Zagato for <$10K.
Lotus Elite for <$14K.
Cheaper than yesterday’s offerings and in the range of toys for the middle-class. And personally, that Lancia sounds intriguing…
Anyhow, please consider this constructive criticism and not overt whining. I love the alphabet idea and am enjoying the series.
I voted for the … well damn, I don’t remember. I think it was gray?
And started with an “L”?
I used to be a Ford guy years ago having owned several of them but having dealt with my own car’s numerous issues and more recently a friend’s Fusion (of the same era as the MKZ) for several years (she’s young and didn’t have much money so I was helping her out), I’m a solid No for Ford products of this era. Questionable engineering, cost cutting, poor quality control, I’m all set. Actually, I’m pretty sold no on all Ford, aka the King of Recalls, of late.
Lexus this time. It’s not even close.
Alternatively: A Lexus or an Expensive Ford with seat covers. I’ll take the Lexus
My wife had a 2012 MKZ, it was a fantastic car. With AWD it was an absolute tank in the snow, it would go through anything! The steering wheel, arm rest and seat covers tells me to STAY AWAY!
Voted Lexus.
Boring badge engineered sedans like these are what drove people to SUV’s.
For all the pining car people do for sedans these days, you’d think they’d remember how truly awful and boring mainstream sedans had become right around the time crossovers started to take off.
I hear you. Yeah, I’ll always take a wagon over a sedan but a crossover is the next best thing, and probably a smarter pick overall in the Northeast. The ability to take a pothole is more important than handling around here.
Badge-engineered sedans drove people to badge-engineered lifted wagons.
I don’t think I’ve ever chosen a Lexus, but here we are, soulless reliable appliance that it is. A little concerned about what rust might be lurking underneath, tho…
well-maintained soulless reliable appliance > battered soulless unreliable appliance
I saw the headline and was going to vote Lexus until I saw it was in Chicago = rust. I am not a Ford guy but a Florida car is better than an Illinois car. I would bet they put the car seat covers on when it was new to ‘protect the seats’ from the sun, which would also explain the tint.
Lexus for sure, assuming the underside is fine. If it shows substantial rust the Lincoln wouldn’t be a bad choice. I’ve had many a fusion as rentals and all were fine. If the seats are trashed it wouldn’t be too hard to find a wrecked on and do a swap
If the dealer thinks that Lincoln with a trashed interior counts as excellent condition, I’d hate to see what they would call good condition.
Check the dashboard! A coworker had a Lexus from this time period whose dash looked like a Salvador Dali painting… sticky and melting. It attracted the dust, but you couldn’t clean it as it was sticky. We’re in sunny Southern California. I had never seen anything like it. It was pretty disgusting and it must have disappointed the kind of buyer who would choose a Lexus in part for its reputation for superior interior comfort and the no stress dealer service experience. I think she had a IS but one look at the interior photo of the ES reminded me of her car.
She solved the issue by buying a Mercedes C class.
Google Lexus melting dash. Here’s just one article.
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/toyota-and-lexus-melting-dashboard-problems-were-so-frustrating-owners-filed-a-lawsuit/
My Solara does that. Turns into flypaper when it’s hot and sunny.
Garages and sun shields help a lot.
There’s a product, I think the company name is Sticky Dash, that’s supposed to help with that.
Hers actually melted beyond the point of stickiness. It was not the correct shape.
OOoo, yuck! Mine just gets so sticky. If I touch it, the fingerprint is memorialized FOREVER.
This isn’t Toyota’s only “miss”. Their exhaust systems are weak, and they cheap out on sun visors. But I’ll take the engine and transmission, thank you.
Do you have any experience with it? It’s going to be an issue on your JSW like it’s been on mine, so if that works it would be great. The soft touch on some of the trim pieces is starting to get gummy. I had to replace the one around the gear shifter on mine, because it was starting to stain the knee of my pants from rubbing up against it. I did get the replacement from a junk yard, so it already had some years on it so it’s starting to fail again, so if this worked it would be nice
I haven’t had any issues with my Sportwagen in that regard, it’s a 2014 and has spent most of its life outdoors but all the interior trim still looks and feels new. Out of curiosity, what year is yours, and what color interior do you have? I’ve got the beige interior though I think the top of the dashboard is the same shade of black as others.
I found out about the sticky dash fix because I knew someone considering a Mazda3 which had that issue. They didn’t end up buying it though, so not sure how well the stuff worked.
Mine is a 2011, and it also has the beige interior. It’s lived its whole life outdoors in Texas, so it gets plenty hot enough to have an effect on the soft touch interior parts, as well as the even less fun glue used to hold the ‘leather’ on to the door cards. The black, soft touch seems to be the only bits going gummy, and I think those are universal from both our cars and the MK5 Golfs
Interesting! I know for sure mine sat for about two years in a parking lot somewhere in New York after the original owner sold it back to VW during Dieselgate. I’m definitely going to get better about using my sun shade and my favorite UV protectant on all interior surfaces from now on though. I have the windows tinted to the legal limit, hopefully that helps too. I seem to recall the Sportwagens in the junkyard having a slightly different dashboard design in the final couple years of production, maybe they fixed something there? I might be 100% wrong though!
IT’s hard to saw with the Sportwagen, it’s kind of a hybrid of a few different cars. Sourcing parts is a pain- it’s at least 85% Golf, but only VW truly knows what the other 15% is
So true! I didn’t really grasp that fully till I went to the junkyard and saw Jettas, Sportwagens, and Golfs back to back. I was replacing the black carbon fiber-ish trim on the doors and dash with silver trim from the junkyard. But the dashboard is different on mine, so trim from earlier Sportwagens and Jettas/Golfs didn’t fit.
Yep. Lexus had the cracking dashboard on some models (2003-2009 GX, 2004-2009 RX) and the sticky dashboard issue on others (2006-2013 IS, 2007-2012 LS, 2006-2012 GS, 2007-2013 ES…).
For at least the sticky dash issue, which also often included the door panels, Lexus had a 10-year campaign where they’d sometimes replace all the interior panels free of charge. But all of the cars have aged out of that now, so whichever cars still have that issue are stuck with it.
I once bought a 2011 LS 460 L AWD and had wondered why the interior looked so pristine; it turned out the interior panels and dash had been replaced in 2021, shortly before I got it.
The leather on the armrest tells you all you need to know about what’s under the seat covers on the Lincoln. Lexus all the way and it isn’t even close.
Yep, came here to say this, that MKZ interior is definitely telling you what you paid for the car, the ES looks pleasant enough.
Remember the Autopian asks where we talked about forgettable cars? I think both of these should be top on that list, though I am not sure as I seem to have already forgotten what they were.
Definitely went for the Japanese one, they are close enough to be the same price, the same mileage, but one is known for legendary reliability, and the other… Isn’t. Also, the one known to outlast the apocalypse is in better shape. No brainer here, even if both are mind numbingly boring.
I am 100% certain there are horrors the world is not ready for under those seat covers. It’s in Florida, so I can only assume somebody’s grandparents farted the leather to shreds and embedded themselves into the foam, creating an eldritch horror contained only by those bits of cloth and vinyl.
Gimme the Lexus.
The Lexus has just taken the years better.
Is this really a question?
Exactly. Anyone voting for the Lincoln is just intentionally trolling.
I wanted to vote for the home team, but… those seats…
And that steering wheel.
Definitely sourced from the parts bin, and looks out of place.
The es would be mine if it were closer. I could send my mother’s crap impala that I have to drive her in to the crusher for scrap money and have a decent ride.