Have you ever driven a car with a low, dash-mounted internal rear-view mirror? You know the kind I mean, where the inside rear-view mirror is mounted low, on the top of the dashboard, as opposed to hanging from above the windshield on a little arm, or, as was common until quite recently when all sorts of cameras and sensors began to be shoved behind rear-view mirrors, stuck to the glass with adhesive? Adhesive that would invariably fail in the heat and drop your mirror to the floor like a de-candified piñata? I’m talking about the other kind.
The low-mounted inside rear-view mirror is one of those things that is almost extinct now, but is also one of those things that I wonder if they perhaps never got a fair shake. It’s so hard to judge them because we’re all so trained and have developed optic muscle memories to instinctively look up for a rear-view mirror, but let’s just take a moment to consider these.
I’ve driven a good number of cars with the dash-mounted mirror, and even owned a car that had one, my old Volvo 1800S. The dash was the same as the one you see in the top shot of this article, and was really a beautiful dashboard, and remains one of my favorites. Part of its charm was the rear-view mirror, perched there right in the middle of the dash.
When I first got the car, the plan was to share it with my then-girlfriend, though she insisted that I also install a second rear-view mirror in the conventional location. I procrastinated doing that long enough for her to decide the car was too much of an ass-pain to drive, so she returned to her modern Civic and I started driving the 1800S regularly, and found that I adapted to the low mirror pretty quickly.
It seems counterintuitive, but the view from that mirror was quite good! The field of view out the back window wasn’t appreciably different that high-mounted mirrors, at least not in any appreciable way I could tell. So why did this not catch on?
I mean, some cars used them – a bunch of 1950s American cars had this setup, along with legends like the Citroën DS:
The low mirror seemed to be more likely to appear on sports cars, like, say, an MGA:
…or even a Shelby Cobra:
For these cars, the issues usually had more to do with the weird sizes and shapes of the mirror. For the MGA and lots of other British sports cars of the era, the rear-view mirror was so small and dainty as to almost make no sense. Nobody was slipping these in their breast pockets when they parked, so why did they have to be so tiny?
And on that Cobra, I couldn’t figure out why it was round; a wide mirror gives you a much more panoramic view of what you just whizzed by. That round one was more like a backwards-facing periscope. But I guess what’s behind you is the past, and who gives a damn about that?
Significantly, these low dash-mounted mirrors seem popular in the bear community and their natural environments, Studebakers:
I’m curious if any of you have ever owned a car with such a mirror, and, if so, what you think. I say “owned” instead of “driven” because I think you need some time to re-train your eyes where to look, since we’re all so used to high rear-view mirrors, and I think that you need to get past that instinct before you can make a fair comparison.
It’s been years since I drove my 1800S regularly, so I barely remember the rear-view-sperience, but I do remember it not being a big deal after a while. I think when I switched between cars there was a moment of adaption, but once your brain writes the low-mirror software, you can switch back and forth pretty easily.
They kinda look cooler, too? Anyway, I want to know what you think, because you’re what matters here!
My TR3 has one, I think most cars with removable windshields have them, and I think all Triumph open cars until the TR7 had removable windshields.
My VW Thing does not which is weird since the windshield folds down.
What about Jeeps when you fold the windshield down ? Come to think of it, aren’t the side mirrors attached to the doors? What about when the doors are removed?
“Owned instead of driven”
I am sure that the Autopian demographic owns more undrivable cars than the general population, I know I do.
I’m down to three undrivable cars so I feel like I should be looking around more.
On my TJ, the in-vehicle mirror mounts to the windshield. The outside mirrors mount to the doors. Removing the doors removes the mirrors. My state, to the best of my belief, does not require outside mirrors.
Of course, the Jeep aftermarket offers many mirror options for TJs without doors.
Can we also talk about why motorcycles have mirrors that mostly show a reflection of your elbows?
I’ve only ridden race-reps, and supermotos with no mirrors, so this might not be universal.
Lots of bikes in the adventure/touring segment have excellent mirrors. My Triumph Sprint ST and Explorer 1200 both had excellent mirrors and did not show my elbows.
My Vespa has great mirrors. Yes, apples to green apples comparo.
Like this?
https://roxyvespa.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/bryn_vespa_7.jpeg
Close! Take all away except two and it’s a dead ringer.
What about the cars with compasses mounted on the dash top. Or the sensor for the automatic high beam dimmer? Or hula ladies?
Should we mention the Plastic Jesus?
Several old sports cars had the best of both worlds-a mirror mounted on a rod that ran down the center of the windshield and was adjustable. The MGB and Jaguar E Type come to mind (I believe the Porsche 356 Speedster did as well). On the MG the center rod was a support for the windshield so it was a pretty obvious place for the mirror. My dad said it was great, because you could move it down, out of the way of things like overhead traffic lights.
side note, the little round mirror on the Cobra is a Raydot racing mirror (or something similar) and is incorrect for the interior mirror, the standard item is a typical chrome backed rectangular one. Those little bullet shaped mirrors were meant for racing cars but were popular accessories for road cars too. They’re common on racing Cobras without windshields as well as mounted on the doors like the car in the photo.
The company’s name is Raydyot. I’ve got a set of their smaller mirrors, like these:
https://www.autotreasures.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/P8436.jpg
on the fenders of my 96:
https://live.staticflickr.com/8013/7497634750_8bb389bc65_c.jpg
Came here to say this but you beat me to it – the rod-mounted mirror is king, and provides the added benefit of structural support for a windshield that may or may not be otherwise held in place by some rusty bolts.
Also worth noting is that as long as the rod isn’t too fat, it has no discernable impact on visibility (thanks to our binocular vision).
And before you start snickering in the back, the thickness of my rod is none of your business.
My ’67 SAAB 96, which I most recently drove yesterday, has such a mirror. The top of the rear window is low enough that it’s the only practical alternative. When SAAB switched to a taller windshield and taller rear window for the ’68 and newer V4 cars they also moved the mirror to being suspended from above, as on my former ’68 96. Getting used to the difference isn’t that big of a deal. This illustrates both mirror locations, with the ’68 in front:
https://live.staticflickr.com/7347/9936422556_4ab1518bf8_c.jpg
Here’s a better look at the rear windows. The increased height may not look like much from this angle but it is significant:
https://live.staticflickr.com/3904/14546524476_70b19e8dd1_c.jpg
There was a time when I planned to mount a teardrop-shaped mirror on the leading edge of the roof. I imagined I could view it through the sunroof. But the angle of reflection was all wrong unless I wanted to spot aircraft tailing me.
So I installed one of those full-width, multi-panel mirrors instead. It worked very well.
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/90316/10002/-1
I think most people these days rarely use the rear view mirror for parking or going in reverse anymore. The center stack display is basically sitting higher and higher these days and the camera can be used if needed when going forward with the touch of a button, or it automatically comes on when in reverse. many cars these days go a step further and when you put on a blinker, the cameras in the mirrors replace something on the dash (Genesis G70 replaces the tach with a blind spot view so you don’t have to take your eyes off the road too much).
I recall some early 60’s mopars with the mirror in that format, but never really saw the benefit. I just figured it was to be just a bit different. I don’t recall any modern cars set up this way though.
“I think most people these days rarely use the rear view mirror for parking or going in reverse anymore.”
I use it while driving to check on the status of following traffic. Tailgaters, drunks, cops…
i have it in the ’67 DS: Works just fine
I grew up with a couple of cars that had dash-mounted mirrors (my grandparents had an 1800, too, a ’63 Jensen-built P1800, and their 1960 Bentley also had one), but have never driven one, so I can’t speak to adapting between mirror positions. Somewhat similar in terms of muscle memory, but maybe worse, my ’73 BMW Bavaria had the turn signal stalk on the right-hand side of the steering column; it was my primary driver at the time, so every time I drove a different car the first time I wanted to signal, I’d turn on the wipers instead.
Early BMW 2002s also had the rightside turn signal stalk. They “fixed” that in 1974.
I have a low mounted mirror in my Austin Healey. Its no problem at all. I switch back and forth between it and cars with modern high mounted mirrors with no conscious adjustment. I was more worried when I added a roll bar and ended up with a cross brace across the view, but it did not seriously impede the view.
“I’m curious if any of you have ever owned a car with such a mirror, and, if so, what you think. I say “owned” instead of “driven” because I think you need some time to re-train your eyes where to look, since we’re all so used to high rear-view mirrors, and I think that you need to get past that instinct before you can make a fair comparison.”
Yes in my TR3. The mirror was fine, its placement put it out of the line of sight of what you needed to see out of the windshield so it really was the only practical solution.
The fender mounted side mirrors OTOH were a huge PITA. Sure they looked amazing but they were constantly being knocked out of alignment by passers by and of course they were not electric. Realignment wasn’t straightforward either unless you had a buddy to adjust while you checked the view.
Is there anything actually inherently cooler about the mounting location of the RVM? Or is it just that rarity=novelty=cool here?
I make no judgement either way but then I haven’t ever driven a car set up with these. I just think it’s an interesting idea but not sure that this counts as cool. Maybe because someone actually thought a little differently, outside the box of the norm, which is cool in a very general sense.
Lower centre of gravity, thus faster around corners, hence cool.
But in reality just rare because not as good.
Seat height, average humanoid height, angle of reflection, play a role.
AIRBAGS rules it out now.
Now that I reflect, a relatively recent Spyker had one, but very limited production cars play by different rules.
As an aside, I always thought the reason why bears who break into cars always seem to break into Subarus is that they tend to be owned by people who live or recreate in bear country out of proportion to their overall sales.
Turns out it’s just that when the supply of Studebakers started to thin out, bears just went to the next make on an alphabetical list.
Seems like sound reasoning to me.
Studebakers in their day suffered a similar problem as recent Hyundais when it came to ease of stealing them. The difference was that only bears knew the secret. A few years back scientists decoded some of the original Bearnet and found several discussion forums on how to break into and start a Studebaker. Most of the forums had threads about how hard it can be to find a screw driver first. There was also a lot of discussion about scoring picnic baskets.
Subaru might be wise to monitor these forums to see how they can secure their vehicles better. I’m sure they can find an AI that would translate Bearnet protocols.
My first car was similar to Fozzie’s, just a year older (just for the record, I’m not that old—the car was over 30 years old when I got it). So, it was weird to me when my second car, a first gen Honda Prelude (okay, so I am that old), required me to move my eyes up to check my mirror.
They do look way cooler, but they wouldn’t work in most modern cars because there’s too much to see over. On sedans and coupes, rear decks are higher, and even in minivans and crossovers, there’s a forest of headrests at every seating position. Even with a windshield-mounted mirror, it can be a problem. A dash-mounted mirror would have to be on a comically high stalk that would look goofy and obstruct the forward view.
Not to mention that, in our day of blinding LED headlights mounted 5 feet off the ground, mounting the mirror lower would blind us even more.
As someone who is blinded by every damn pickup and SUV in my not-all-that-low GTI, I’d kill to be able to fully stop blinding myself with my rearview mirror.
One of my all-time favorite conveniences in modern cars is an auto-dimming rearview mirror. Whenever I buy my next car, I’m looking for one that also has auto-dimming side mirrors.
This brings up an interest of mine in the history of headrests. I am still blown away that cars were mandated to have headrests in 1968? but trucks in 1991? just wild.
Applying to both rear-end collision situations and to visibility to a low-mounted mirrors, there’s another issue besides lack of headrests. I remember looking at a ‘65 Mustang as a potential first car. And the seat backs barely went halfway up my shoulder blades.
Trucks had headrests, they were just made of glass so everyone could see your rifle collection!
I was going to make a similar comment. Untill the 90s trucks almost all had 2 doors. Your head did not have a chance to travel any significant distance before hitting the back of the cab/glass.
As a locational counterpoint, at some point can we also talk about odd radio display locations?
My Focus has the display in a pod on top of the dash, like where some cars would have performance-oriented gauges. The controls are where you’d expect them to be, but the actual display is completely spatially disconnected from it. At first it bothered me, but now I find it kinda charming.
Two thoughts on the idea:
Re 2. even the repair adhesive was bad back in the day! You’ll follow all the directions to the letter and it would still fall off again a few months later.
It begs the question. Which fell first the mirror or the headliner?
Why not both?! Only one can be fixed with regular staples, though…
Own but hardly ever drive – 1959 Austin Healey BN-4 has one. Yeah it needs work like everything else around here 🙂
It was always just a placeholder for the day that smartphones were invented, and they knew that some states would inexplicably ban mounting said smartphones to the glass, requiring people to invest in giant beanbag chairs for their smartphone and creating an even bigger hazard to visibility and distractions. That was until the point that vent louvers became strong enough to hold mounts for phones, forcing the user to choose between ventilation and TikTok.
Of course, it wasn’t long before manufacturers — in their jealousy — started gluing bespoke tablet computers to the center of the dash, all of which looked like they should fold away when not in use, or at least be modular and easily replaceable, because if they weren’t, then why wouldn’t they be integrated into the dashboard completely like they used to be?
And here we are.
I was behind a lady two days ago with her phone mounted not just radially in the 2 o’clock position, but almost *at* the 2 o’clock position of her steering wheel. There’s no way it didn’t block seeing the middle 60% of her car and down the road besides.
I’ve also seen people watching TV on iPads while “driving.”
Now that I’m mulling it over, I think the dash mount mirror is inferior, and not just in the prepositional sense. Thinking of that lady’s phone, what was at the end of her dash was a complete mystery to her. The mirrors, while less distracting and smaller, still clutter up your toddler ‘n’ dog visibility area.
I’m a total weirdo — the rare times I mount my phone (mostly for navigation or podcasts on long trips) I put it low on the driver window — where I can still see the side mirror, but it’s otherwise not blocking any important views. Just aligned with the A pillar. Depends on your car’s geometry, though.
that seems more okay? Hers was eye level, just left of center relative to the dash (i.e., above and to the right of the steering wheel). It would be impossible not to look at it while driving normally because as she had it mounted, it was absolutely in her line of sight.
My wife’s 1981 Impala mirror was constantly falling off. Later duct taped to the dash.
I believe dash-mounted mirrors were quite common in the day – when the alternative was a roof header-mounted mirror.
The big step forward came in 1961 when the all-new Lincoln Continental boasted a mirror that was adhered to the windshield.
Yes, I still own my DS. I have no problem adjusting between the different cars. It makes perfect sense for the DS to be low, as it is logical for all other cars to hang from the top of the window. If two adult sized eh adults occupy the rear seat, the visibility is a little bit less. But apart from that no issues.
I think I have way way back in the 1980s but it also may have been a temporary thing when some old jeep of mine lost the upper mount and I had it on the dash as a temporary fix.
Can you do one of your cool stories like this on the history of passenger side mirrors that were once not there or only an option?
Heck, on my ’65 Corvair, the driver-side outside mirror was an $11 option. They weren’t Federally mandated until 1966.
and passenger mirrors not mandated until 76
I think passenger side mirrors weren’t mandated until way later, like the early 90’s. There was a lot of base model cars from the 80’s with only one mirror.
Unsafe at Any See
My ’64 Austin Healey 3000 has a dash-mounted mirror. A common accessory is a lifted base with longer screws so you can actually see out with the top up.
I always thought the coolest one was the Jaguar E-type that has the mirror mounted on a post that goes from dash to the top of the windshield. The mirror is a clamp that can be placed at any height that is convenient for the driver.
Yup. The bar-mounted mirror is the best mirror.
My 62 Sprite has the same problem, I like the idea of the raised mount.
Moss Motors sells them