You know what’s great? A minivan. You know what all my friends are buying? Highlanders. That’s the safe choice. Or maybe a Honda Pilot. The fun choice? A Mazda CX-90. I like those. You know what the best choice is in almost any situation? A Honda Odyssey, or a Kia Carnival, or maybe a Pacifica. If you’re at the Toyota dealer already, then it’s the Sienna, for sure.
Most people do not make this choice. The prime three-row buying group is a Millennial with their second kid either here or imminently on the way. My friends know what I do for a living and thus always ask for my advice before buying a car. They almost never take it, sometimes to their great detriment. Consumers must be overhearing my wisdom, because minivans are selling like Bomb Pops in Hades.
Here’s some interesting news. Lucid sales are way up, bucking the norm of startups. Some of this is probably due to the fact that they have a new SUV that is… a minivan. Let’s face it, it’s a minivan. It’s a great car for kids, and if you love kids, you’re going to love the new book from Kristen Lee. And while we’re talking about books, Larry Chen has one, too.
One might think The Morning Dump today would be dominated by the politics of the moment, but an extra long “magic minute” speech in the house is delaying the signing of the mega tax/budget bill, so I’m going to give myself a break here and leave the politics out of TMD as much as possible today. It’ll be there on Monday, and the temperature is quite high now. I’m going to let the mercury fall a bit and then, next week, when more of this is resolved, we can talk about “Large Engine Vehicles” and whatever other nonsense happens in the coming days.
Minivans Had A Huge Quarter
I don’t know who needs to hear this, but minivans are rad. MPVs are rad, too, and I’d have probably bought one if anyone sold an MPV in America. Instead, I bought the standard-issue two-row hybrid crossover, so my criticism of people who pass over a minivan and buy a crossover-SUV is going to be slightly hypocritical. If the Mazda5 were still in production, I might be in a different situation.
Minivans were once the hottest thing for families since Captain Crunch, and my theory on why people became minivan averse goes something like this:
- Recognizing that American families needed space, automakers created a huge number of wagon variants of sedans. This became such a cliché that National Lampoon’s Family Vacation effectively killed the station wagon with its Family Truckster. Not coincidentally, the premiere of that movie in 1983 nicely dovetails with the introduction of the Dodge Caravan the same year.
- The minivan itself became so common and so associated with a certain kind of maternal existence that it was replaced in the 1990s by the SUV in the form of the Ford Explorer and all the vehicles that followed it.
- SUVs became associated with gas-guzzling and endless wars in the Middle East, so they transitioned into giant three-row crossovers. [Ed Note: It helps that crossovers are just better on gas (fuel prices were rough around 2008-ish), plus they’re more comfortable and cheaper than beefy body-on-frame SUVs, while still giving off a similar SUV vibe. -DT].
Because my fellow Millennial parents grew up in the backs of Previas and Quests and the like, buying one can represent a certain sort of failure. A sense that you’ve fallen into the same trap as your parents. As my caretakers had a string of Escorts, Impulses, and B.R.A.T.s, it doesn’t hit the same for me, which means I can recognize that the modern minivan is a marvel of packaging and efficiency.
Thomas already made this point well in his Sienna review, but you can’t get more capabilities, space, ease of use, or even luxury in any other vehicle sold in the United States. If you want something efficient, there’s the Sienna or Carnival Hybrid. If you want a PHEV, there’s the Pacifica. If you want something surprisingly quick, there’s the Odyssey. You can hardly go wrong.
People agree! This year, let’s look at the field so far:
- Toyota Sienna: Up 61% y-o-y with 52,672 sales
- Honda Odyssey: Up 28% with 50,033 sales
- Kia Carnival: Up 57% with 35,152 sales
- Chrysler Pacifica/Voyager: Down 22% with 22,938 sales
The Pacifica is older and less competitive, so that’s a bit of an outlier here. As Car And Driver points out, the ID.Buzz is also showing weak sales, which has nothing to do with the collective lust for minivans and more to do with the van’s unavoidable flaws.
Finally, the minivan has returned.
Lucid Sales Are Up As The Gravity Begins Deliveries
Here’s a fun one! For all the sales slumping that’s occurring at Tesla and Rivian, that isn’t happening at Lucid Motors. The there-but-for-the-grace-of-the-PIF electric automaker is doing quite well, thank you. Will that change once the IRA tax credit for leasing goes away? I don’t know, and I’m not going to talk about it right now.
Let’s let the kids have their day. Q2 deliveries were up 38% year-over-year to 3,309 vehicles, as production and delivery of the admittedly exceptional Lucid Gravity started. I know David has been sort of critical of this thing being a big jelly-bean minivan in the past, saying:
[W]ith the Lucid Gravity, I have a suspicion that engineers won most of the arguments with designers, and I have always been firmly in the camp that thinks designers should tell engineers what to do, thereby compelling them to come up with interesting technical solutions. I don’t think it should be the other way around, because design is simply too important, especially in this price class.
Perhaps, given the news above, people actually want minivans. The Carnival is a minivan that looks like an SUV, the Gravity is an SUV that looks like a minivan. Both might work. I’m going to have to wait for registration data in a few months to find out how well the Gravity is doing, as Lucid doesn’t break out individual sales. I did get a Lucid spokesperson to confirm that at least one Gravity was delivered, which is backed up by social media posts.
Pre-Order Kristen Lee’s Kids’ Book About Cars
The great automotive journalist and equally great pal-of-this-site Kristen Lee has a new book for kids coming that’ll explore things that go. It’s literally called “The 50 States: Things That Go” and includes some awesome stock cars on the cover, I assume, for New Hampshire. From the publisher:
Buckle up and get ready to hit the road on an adventure through all 50 states to discover the fastest, wackiest, and most rip-roaring vehicles across the United States—from race cars and roller coasters to submarines and trains. From the roaring racing cars of Indiana to the soaring space shuttles of Florida, travel through 50 states with vehicle expert and enthusiast Kristen Lee, and uncover more than 500 facts that showcase the vehicles, history, and spirit of the USA.
The California page includes both Sally Ride and the Corkscrew, so I already love it. Pre-order it wherever you pre-order books.
Also, Get Larry’s Book While You’re At It
Did I just do all of your holiday shopping for you? You’re welcome. Larry Chen, the most influential photographer of his/my generation, has a book coming out called “Life At Shutter Speed” and it’s going to be big and beautiful (maybe a bad word choice, sorry). It’s also being published by our friends at Carrara Books, so you know it’ll look great.
Known for his complete and total immersion into the automotive scene, Chen has earned a reputation for capturing photos that could only be achieved with unlimited access. As a result, the images in Life At Shutter Speed have defined the modern era in cars, in events, in people and in an entire generation of enthusiasts.
“This book helped me relive so many pivotal moments throughout my career. It perfectly encapsulates my mission to capture and celebrate car culture.”
There are two versions, and while neither is cheap, they are art pieces (I got a preview of the book, so I’m giving you my word here). You can pre-order this book here.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
My daughter has been learning to drum, and we use a drumming program that allows her to practice with simplified versions of various songs. The best so far has been “There She Goes” by the La’s. Last night I excitedly played “Bombtrack” by Rage Against The Machine. She was a little slow to pick it up because she did not listen to this song 19,000 times as a youth. I tried to rectify this by playing it on the car this morning, assuming Apple Music would pick the album version, which, unlike a lot of RATM’s songs, doesn’t have any obscenities. Instead, Apple Music played the live version, and boy does that Zack de la Rocha character love to drop F-bombs. Thanks, Apple Music.
The Big Question(s)
What are your holiday weekend road trip plans? Also, would you ever buy a minivan?
Top photo: Fesley Music/Toyota
On my 4th pilotable jobsite lockbox. Who needs a car and full size truck?
Bonus: Chrysler minis are essentially ticketproof.
Con: Chrysler minis are easy to buy, hard to sell (rightfully earned rapid depreciation).
I took my white rental-spec Dodge Caravan to NYC once and I parked behind some kind of construction or minor roadwork left unattended for the evening and moved the cone behind me.
Stick an orange gumball light on your roof and some fleet ID letter/number stickers to your rear window and you can park anywhere you like in most cities.
Minivans are good, but I miss full size conversion vans! My dad purchased all manner of family haulers in my youth: sedan, station wagon, minivan, Suburban, and multiple full size conversion vans. The big vans were the best, captain’s chairs, bed in back, TV I could hook my Nintendo to on long trips! Totally awesome!
No offense to the many here in this situation, but the “having a second kid, need minivan” concept is not one I can understand. I laugh every time I hear it. Not once during the years I have been a parent (of multiple children) have I understood the perceived need. Want? Go for it. But need? Fraid I can’t buy that argument.
I won’t ever have a mini van unless its a 60s econoline or a Corvan. Why? Because no perk they offer is so much greater than other options that I need to drive something I visually despise. I hate that form factor. They are ALL ugly. I don’t care if other people think its ugly. Other people can go to hell. I drive what I like, and if I don’t like the looks, it better be so much better than any other option it over comes that. Minivan’s do not make that cut for the needs and purposes of my life.
It’s the darn car seats. I swear that’s what drives parents into SUV’s or Minivans. They result in no space for the passenger, and forget trying to put them behind the driver in most cars. And you can’t fit 3 across in most vehicles either if you have 3 kids. We had mid-size cars when we had kids, and we quickly replaced them with SUV’s because the car seats were so big.
100% it’s the carseats. Modern rear facing car seats are massive.
It’s also all of the damn stuff. If you have really little ones (2 or younger) you’re going to need to travel with a ton of shit for them. We have a 1 year old my Kona N is already too small for road trips. Add in the dog and it’s game over. I think a lot of enthusiasts don’t get this when they go on tirades about people buying more car than they need.
Unfortunately if you’ve never had to haul wee ones around you just don’t get it. If you have multiple young kids and/or some combination of kids and a furry friend and you need to go on road trips a compact sedan or hatchback just isn’t going to cut it no matter how hard single enthusiasts want it to.
Minivans are great because compared to huge SUVs, crossovers, and trucks they’re more efficient, they have more space, and they aren’t a massive inconvenience to everyone around you on the road.
My Wife’s CRV barely fit 2 adults and a baby when we vacationed. It’s wild, considering my family used to roadtrip with 4 of us in a Toyota Echo!
Freaking car seats… I only have one kiddo for now and one of the leading reasons to sell me Mazda3 Hatch was lack of room! With her car seat installed, the front seat had to be far enough forward to block visibility though the passenger window! It sucks that a midsized car or above is the only way to carry kids these days.
I’ve been shocked at how bad my Kona N has proven to be for baby duty. It’s not exactly a tiny car either, but for whatever reason stuff just doesn’t fit in it very well. We really can’t use it for road trips, which is a bummer because I’d much rather drive my car that’s fun than get lulled to sleep by my wife’s CRV…
It is a strange dynamic how when kids are the smallest, they require a greater amount of passenger space than any point until the teenage years. Under 1 and you need the same amount of space as a 6’4” adult, 5 year old in a booster seat and you can fit them into the back of a GR86 with little effort.
This is what people without young kids don’t understand. You simply cannot fit 2 (rear-facing) car seats in a mid-size sedan or compact crossover with two adults in the front seats. The car seats are just too large and, well, safe now.
The “need” for a minivan when expecting the 2nd kid is a lot like that “need” to buy a full sized truck when you buy a house. Probably why they are frequently found next to each other in the typical suburban driveway.
Haha, for a brief time in the late 90’s my dad drove a Ram 1500 and mom drove a minivan. Once we were older and less likely to go on family trips, they sold the van and she got a Pontiac Vibe. They had just been released, shortly after she got it a woman followed her to Dunkin to ask her about it.
The OG Pontiac Vibe was a gem.
The funny thing is that today’s full size trucks are not that great for homeowners because most come with short beds that are too high off the ground. You are most likely better off with a (foldable) trailer. Or just rent a truck for an hour or two from the Orange Big Box home store.
Your comment triggered a memory of a friend of mine and his wife about 20 years ago who decided that, since they were having a second kid, their Ford Expedition was no longer big enough and they needed to trade it in on an Excursion. I never understood the reasoning. Of course, his wife also justified the change by arguing that the bigger engine in the Excursion would be less stressed and thus get better fuel mileage. She was never the sharpest crayon in the box.
JFC! The Expedition wasn’t big enough??!! Like WTF- that thing is HUGE! Unless she consistently travels with the entire family, including the grandparents, I don’t see the need for something bigger.
Did we “need” a minivan when we had the 2nd kid? No, we could have made do with something smaller if we really had to. My wife was driving a CX-5 at the time. That Mazda barely worked with 1 kid and a dog if both adults were in the car, it would have been a PITA to use it with another infant seat as well. I could not fit in the passenger seat with a rear facing child seat behind it, and a CX-5 is not exactly tiny.
Thing is once a compact crossover is too small what’s left? There’s almost no wagons available, and the ones that are cost more than a minivan. We wanted a hatchback for practicality so sedans were out (not that there are many large sedan options anyway). I suppose we could have gotten something like a 2-row midsize SUV but why miss out on all the other benefits of a van just to save a foot of length? That extra cargo space has come in handy on multiple occasions.
I don’t think anyone is saying you need a minivan with 2 kids, but it sure is helpful to have one.
My wife and I have two kids (one in a booster and one in a full blown car seat) and we’ve been served perfectly fine by her ‘19 Durango and my sedan.
If we had a hypothetical 3rd? Yes, we’d need something bigger and we’d be looking at a giant SUV or minivan.
Everyone I know with a minivan has at least 3 kids or is a drummer.
I did own a “minivan”, a Chevy Astro. Interestingly it was such a pile that I got rid of it after having kids. It was more about having a vehicle for band touring, and it did that pretty well, but touring stopped once the first kid popped out. A Honda Element was great for my kids when they were small, and also for the occasional local gig.
I never bought a minivan. It was probably due to us being a GM family with a Father-in-Law that worked for them and got us a family discount. GM Minivans were never competitive (other than the Astro/Safari… those were great other than the crash test ratings). We made due with 3 row SUV’s instead, which had a lot of compromises.
Remember when GM tried to make their minivans look like SUV’s, but they sucked at being both?
I have no road trip plans for this weekend, but next weekend my son and I are taking our Miatae due South into Canada with our local Miata Club. It’s about a 1 hour drive over to the Pelee Island Ferry, and then around the Island for a couple hours. Should be a fun day. We’ll both have our favorite co-pilots with us too.
This is going to give me giggles all day. All warm and cozy in that oven mitt, huh, gotta go for a drive sometimes.
It’s the Detroit area joke. We take the bridge or tunnel South to get to Canada.
It’s the only place in the country where you can do that, right?
Interestingly enough, most of Canada’s population lives south of the northernmost border of the contiguous US.
You imply GM tried to do anything more than a stopgap with the CSVs until the Acadia/etc. started arriving. :p
Actually a van was part of the Lambda program, but got cancelled due to costs IIRC. Probably fair given where GM was at the time, Toyota/Honda had made huge gains in the segment by then and it would have taken more effort to win over buyers again.
FALSE. My mom had a Pontiac Trasport, that thing was awesome. The 3.8L would smoke the front wheels, and the individual rear buckets were very handy.
All my friends liked it, we called in the “Hoover”, and I’d borrow it to shuttle us all to Providence for concerts.
What about the dustbuster vans? My dad had one for a few years after we moved in The US. That thing was ok for a minivan, but better than the GM of the times.
We have a 15 Odyssey now and we love the damn thing, although my wife wants a Pilot when it comes to replacement. the 2 box looks just don’t jive with her, although i love the maxi Lambo looks on the Odyssey. Also, it seems to drive and handle a lot nicer than the Sienna.
I sing the virtues of minivans all the time. If you need to move several people and their stuff in comfort there is not a more practical form factor in existence. Add in the fact that there are now 3 hybrid options on the market and there’s basically no logical reason to buy anything else as a family hauler unless you need to tow huge quantities or drive over snowbanks.
Being one of the countless OH I’D NEVER DRIVE A MINIVAN people just screams insecurity to me. One of the coolest things about reaching the age when you have a family and a van makes sense is that no one expects anything out of you anymore socially. No one bats an eye when you’re asleep by 10. No one expects you to cross town for a goddamn bar crawl, and the times you do show up you’re celebrated. No one even bothers to invite you to weekday activities.
I don’t think that’s lame at all. In fact I think that’s rad. I don’t want to pretend I’m 22 any more. I don’t look back on college as the peak of my existence. I don’t give a rats ass what some rando thinks about me. Getting to the point that you don’t give a shit about how you’re perceived and you’re not trying to impress anyone is very freeing.
Embrace the van. Let the van flow through you. Uncool is the new cool. Anyway my wife is now open to looking at minivans for her next car and I’m thrilled. She’s always eaten up the crossover propaganda but Toyota brilliantly gave a Sienna to one of the influencer types she follows (Jason Kelce’s wife) and suddenly she no longer thinks vans are uncool.
We’re getting a Sienna. I’m calling my shot now.
I think it is less showing off for the childless crowd and more, I’m cooler than the minivan parents I am friends with. That’s the vibe I get from my wife’s friends between the families with minivans and the ones with SUVs. Also, some of it is the ride height thing for short parents. It’s why we now have a Pilot Trailsport over a CX90 (too low) or Expedition. (Too high) My wife likes everything about her friend’s odyssey except the low driving position. I personally dont care, but my 5’2” wife likes to feel tall.
My wife also likes to feel tall but she’s 5’7 so there’s plenty of stuff that fits the bill
Yes! Good call lol.
I can certainly relate to the IDGAF mentality. Just the other day I found myself picking up some stuff for the house at HD and I was wearing flipflops, a hip pack and an old tshirt with holes in the armpits (speedholes). Late 40’s so I’m peaking. Anyway good luck with the Sienna, excellent choice but I rented one and they were kind of slow. The V6 Odyssey is a bit more fun but it’s a minivan, just pick one (except the Pacifica).
Also, would you ever buy a minivan?
My kids spent their formative years in a Ford Aerostar.
Couldn’t have used David Lee Roth for a minivan Halen image?
I’d totally buy a minivan if my needs justified it, which they don’t. Then again I’ve never been one much concerned with image when it comes to the cars I drive.
I’m happy to be staying in town this weekend other than going to a BBQ at a friend’s place. After neglecting my Ford LTD for months while preparing for a Lemons race I might take it out to a Cars and Coffee on Saturday.
I’m completely outside the target demographic, but I owned a very rare minivan. 1992 Voyager with a 5-speed manual!
I looked at the Toyota website and found that (assuming you could buy at or near MSRP) the Highlander and Sienna have the same starting price. I’d certainly pick the Sienna.
I’ve never needed to own a minivan but if I did, I’d absolutely buy one. The few times I’ve had them as rentals when needed (on business trips with a group of colleagues, or taking friends around Hawaii on vacation) plus the time spent in the back of the forbidden fruit Toyota vans in Japan have me convinced.
I would get a minivan.
I am going to look now at ones that can tow. If I can get 7k towing, I may just pull the trigger.
Chevy Astro Van?
Chevy Chevy Astro Astro
Looking now. Hadn’t even considered it.
Unfortunately they haven’t made them in like 20+ years. But they were full frame 4.3L V6 and most had a hitch. AWD available too.
The Astro is not a traditional body on frame like the full size vans. The main body is a unibody and then it has a seperate cradle that holds the engine, transmission and front suspension.
Makes them very easy to lift – mine has a 3 inch lift.
Max towing is 5,500 lbs.
Personally I would buy the Express doing it over again. The difference between the fuel economy when they both have the 4.3L is tiny and the Astro has the turning circle of a full size van.
I am pretty well know for being extra and excessive. Started looking at the Savannas with the V8.
Not angry at all. Stereo is ancient enough and not connected enough to a double DIN whatever I want. Can drive the scout troop and the trailer.
It isn’t a bad play at all, if not the newest and fanciest.
I’ve thought about swapping the stereo in my Express 4500 but haven’t gotten too far down that road. I just have a bluetooth dongle that I plug into the input jack and play tunes and podcasts from my phone.
A minivan with 7k towing? Durango Hemi 🙂
Bonus: It actually drives like a big RWD wagon.
I think that minivans are the 2nd best vehicle type, bested only by the station wagon, mainly because of handling, weight & fuel efficiency.
I also think the SUV/CUV is the worst, so I don’t have any popular opinions 🙂
Crossovers can be better than cars, but it depends what you need. We currently have a small crossover and a sedan.
The sedan you sink into when entering and it’s a bitch to get out of for older people or those with mobility issues. The crossover is much easier to enter and exit.
The sedan scrapes our driveway if you’re not very careful or if you have more than 2 people in it. The extra clearance on the crossover means it doesn’t.
Now, I’m a huge fan of sedans, but they’re not better at everything vs a crossover. There are actual reasons a crossover can be a decent choice. I certainly won’t argue handling or efficiency though.
In 32, had my second child six months ago and just bought a new Odyssey. Got an EXL way under MSRP with low financing. LOVE IT!! More people need to be buying these over a Telluride or equivalent.
2015 EX-L here. Our kids are teenagers now and…it’s so solid, we see no reason to let it go. I wasn’t a Honda/Toyota convert for quite a while, but I am now.
Our neighbors across the street have an early 2010s Odyssey that their teenage son grew up in and is now driving. It just soldiers on and on without complaint. They’ve owned multiple other cars in the time we’ve known them but the minivan has been a constant.
We replaced a sedan and a cargo van full of dog kennels with one minivan and we are happy with that choice. We went with the Pacifica because the stow and go seats are not sitting in the garage and the awd is great with the 6mo of winter.
I’m not opposed to a minivan but we have never felt the need to put up with the size, cost, and fuel economy of a minivan for 2 kids. We made it through the peak “kids and their associated crap that goes everywhere” days with a Prius. Our needs will likely never expand enough to justify the purchase of a minivan.
I’ve had both, and minivans are great. But Prii are massively underrated for utility. The rear legroom is totally unexpected in what is assumed to be a subcompact car.
Holiday weekend roadtrip plans? I’m going to park my minivan at the ferry terminal and walk on to go to a BBQ. I have no desire to spend hours in a car.
I am dead nuts on for the target demo you mentioned – millennial that bought our Odyssey about 2 months before our 2nd was due. So yes, definitely in the minivan camp.
Did our road trip early this year, driving from New England to DE and VA beach last week. That van swallowed all our crap and then some with no complaints other than the A/C struggling to keep up with the heat wave at some points. There’s no way an equivalent 3-row crossover would’ve been as useful, from the cavernous space with the 3rd row folded (seriously, it’s at least double the space as my 3-row Jeep GC) to the removable middle seat in between the 2 kids in the 2nd row. Having that seat available to calm the kids down during our 20+ hours in the car last week was a godsend. Didn’t have to worry about a roof rack even when hauling coolers, beach chairs, air mattresses/portable crib, multiple suitcases, etc. And it got almost 30 mpg doing it.
One thing that sealed the deal for me was leaving our minivan at home and renting a Suburban while on vacation. On paper, similar capacity, despite the Suburban’s larger exterior size. In reality, it was quite a bit tighter for both passengers and luggage. And getting home back into the van was like hopping in a sports car.
I still love the full-size GM SUVs for what they are, but mundane day-to-day people movers are not their best suit. Yet still people pay 50% premiums to use them for exactly that.
Yep, my sister in the same situation bought a Yukon XL. On paper a bit more cargo area, but it’s gigantic, drives like a bus, and cost $30k more. She has no need for the towing capacity so it’s not like she couldn’t get by with a van. The higher step-in for the Yukon is actually a pain for her kids and dog. It’s nicer inside and the V8 sounds good, that’s about the only positives I can get for her situation.
I do like the big GM SUVs for the right use case, but if you’re just shuttling kids around a van is just far better.
I love Minivans, so yes. A Sienna or Odyssey would be at the top of my list.
I was researching vans for some friends and found that the last gen Sienna V6 has no or very few common issues. As long as the waterpump is changed every 80-100k miles, it’s a golden child.
Yes, the 3.5 V6 is supposed to be a very good motor. Unfortunately a gently used Sienna with the 3.5 is very expensive for a used car.
Siennas are 100% unobtainium here, selling at sticker if you can find one. I rent Pacificas pretty often and they are a bit hoary but are still surprisingly good driving. I wouldn’t have one because Stellantis though.
Couldn’t find a single dealer with one a lot when we were shopping in April. That alone drove us to go to the other options. Shame for Toyota they can’t increase capacity.
My BIL had the same issue – I coudn’t believe he was on a WAITLIST for a minivan!
…for like 6 months!
FWIW, so is the Highlander and Grand Highlander hybrid. They sell immediately, if not before they even hit the lot. I guess Toyota must like not meeting demand.
I’m sure the dealers like it. Good luck finding a Sienna or Grand Highlander that didn’t have its sticker packed with TruCoat and other crap you don’t want.
I couldn’t find a Highlander either. Local dealers pretty unwilling to deal, no surprise. I ended up with an Outback XT Turbo and I’m really pleased with it. 3 year company car lease so I’m not stuck with it long term.
Yes and no.
The original mini vans were pretty great, easily removable rear seats so you can use it to haul cargo in a pinch.
Today you got second row seats that are a PITA to remove, and sometimes even the 3rd row seats are not removable.
Personally if I were in the market for a van I’d want non-carpeted floors.
Honestly carpet in cars is kinda disgusting.
I brought an 8-piece sectional home in our Odyssey last weekend (2 trips, but shut up!). The three-piece middle rows take about 5 minutes, and the third row folds into the floor like most vans. There are a couple of vans that prioritize ultra-lux second rows — some trims of Sienna and Carnival — that make the job a lot harder or sometimes impossible, though, but that’s a personal choice.
Expert level: The third row can be full unbolted in about 15 minutes with a couple hand tools. Then you have mega-storage!
Are you truly a man if you can’t do it in one trip? 😉
Did you have the recall done for the second row? Ever since they’ve done it on ours, it’s a pain to take and put the middle row back in.
Depends on the Ody. My in-laws have a 2019 (I think?) and the second row seats absolutely suck to remove. They won’t fold all the way flat or lock so it’s like wrestling a fish to remove them.
The tailgate doesn’t raise far enough so any 6’ish person is likely to bash their head on it removing stuff (huge complaint online).
In addition, it’s bad in the snow vs other years, even with decent all-seasons, just like the other cars have.
They’ve had at least 3 other Odys and none of these things were formerly issues. Hopefully they’ve been rectified. The last Ody was the best IMO (super comfy, powerful, great handling, etc) but it suffered from a nasty headliner roof leak which was a known problem.
With the Pacifica’s stow n go you can have a flat floor behind the driver’s seat in about 1-2 minutes. Fits sheets of 4×8 like they’re nothing. If you’re hauling something messy, throw a $10 tarp in there and no worries about the carpet. Amazing for runs to the landfill or hardware store alike. If that’s not good enough a full sized van is probably what you need.
Sounds decent, though I’m really only interested in BEVs nowadays.
I’ve been a minivan fan, unbroken, since we got an ’88 Dodge Caravan in the early 90s. I took my driver’s test in it. I never had to apologize once for it because none of my 90s-era friends dared make fun of it.
My cynical take: Our collective decline into mainstream hedonism, moral relativity, social media, and image management from 2010+ has made practicality uncool except for the more traditional segments of the very wealthy (the “stealth wealth” people who don’t want to be lumped in with the Oligarchs and Technocrats).
That means for 80%-90% of the market, they’ll buy whatever is most socially acceptable to their peers. The right tool for the job is irrelevant now. You have a brand to manage! You have your kids’ friends to impress! And the carmakers know this, so they’ll jazz up the crossovers with 20″ wheels (over 12″ brakes) and aggressive front ends and paddle shifters just because they can.
Despite economic headwinds, it looks like we’re all leaning pretty hard into superficiality, even if it costs us half of our paychecks.
Sorry but the social trend to follow the herd isn’t anything new. See the article’s history of the trend from wagon, to minivan, to SUV, to CUV.
With enough luck, my weekend road trip will consist of approximately 900 miles in a 1982 Triumph Acclaim. With less than enough luck, fewer miles.
Stellantis should be embarrassed, minivans should be for them what appliances and hardware were to Sears for many years, the one, core, thing they still do consistently well even as everything else turns into a dumpster fire.
The Pacifica was arguably the best minivan on the market back when it first debuted in 2016 (in design, maybe not necessarily in build quality), and until pretty much just now, remained remarkably popular over that time, hitting 120,000 annual sales like 4 times, including 2024, but they’ve really left it on the market too long without meaningful changes, its in it’s 9th model year, about to start its 10th, and that is just a few years too long. They need to keep things fresh and look for ways to leapfrog the competition, Stellantis should own this market, there’s no excuse for them not to, but it looks like they’re fumbling it just like they seem to do with everything else
I agree on Pacifica and shared that yesterday. They may not hold up great, but it’s a terrific product when new. Even Ralph Gilles was jazzed about it and his role in the design.
I guess once Stellantis figures out how to make a reliable V6, they’ll have better luck. I can’t believe some of the stuff I heard from Pacifica owners, including one of our Oppo brethren who put a lot of love into his Pacifica and was met with a lot of crap in just a couple years.
100% agree. It should also be undercutting everyone in price, but it isn’t. WTH Stellantis!
The fact they are still the only ones with a PHEV minivan and they’ve completely wasted that potential is mind blowing. I can’t think of a better use case for PHEV than a minivan, but Chrysler’s is so unreliable that no one wants it.
A next gen Pacifica could seriously be enough to revitalize the brand, but they are going to just let it wither and die.
Agreed, they were the only one to market with it (and still are!), and despite the $7,500 rebate making it almost identical in price to the gasser, they’re not dominating the passenger transport market across the board.
If Stellantis can’t capitalize on that, I don’t have much hope for them in anything.
The PHEV doesn’t have stow’n’go 🙁
We have a 2017 Pacifica we bought new. It was definitely the best, most thought out of the competitors at the time, although I can’t speak to that now. Reliability has not been horrible, but not great either, with a major AC system service last summer and pentastar oil cooler replacement.
I have not shopped this segment recently, but I struggle with how critical the age of a platform is, assuming they keep feature parity with the competition. What benefits do the competitors have from being newer besides looking newer? The only thing I’m missing right now is car play.
As far as utility goes, I have a bunch of sheets of tile backer in the back of mine right now.
“What benefits do the competitors have from being newer besides looking newer”
It’s a consumer product, so that is actually important. Fleet buyers don’t care, and would actually prefer that vehicles not change for years, or decades, at a time, if possible, but the majority of private buyers want new and novel, even if its just for the sake of new. That’s how Apple gets people going crazy over every barely noticeable, incremental improvement to their iPhones
To be fair, the segment isn’t going through redesigns too frequently, seems like product cycles are lengthening. And I imagine buyers probably only pay attention to vans around them when they are actually considering one. The prior Sienna went for 9 model years, the current Odyssey is only a year younger than the Pacifica.
But both of those had 2 facelifts each during the run, so the Pacifica is definitely due. I mean at some point I feel like it has to age out of the earlier FCA parts; I think that’s a bigger driver for Honda making updates. There’s over a million of the vans in service when you throw in Canadian sales too, surely a few owners have feedback on some improvements.
Sales are up for minivans because they are cheaper than the equal 3 row SUVs.
Say 25+ years ago they ran much cheaper than a brand’s SUVs, often closer to that of midsize sedan pricing in the entry trims, but now they’re actually pretty equal. A Sienna is a grand less than Toyota’s 3-rows, more when you compare like hybrids, but they’re all the hardest to find and the crossovers are allocated more. Odyssey starts in between the entry Pilot trims, a Carnival starts $600 more than a Telluride, and while not quite the same a Grand Cherokee L is $900 less than a Voyager (and a Durango even less).
Preach it. Minivans should have never left! They are evolution from a station wagon, and let me tell you, those sliding doors are the best thing on them.
Sliding Door Supremacy!
But don’t forget the conversion van era too. That’s what we travelled in when I was growing up. Yes, the minivan is an evolution of the station wagon, but it’s probably the product of a conversion van and a station wagon hooking up during the late 70’s, early 80’s.