You know what’s great? A minivan. You know what all my friends are buying? Highlanders. That’s the safe choice. Or maybe a Honda Pilot. The fun choice? A Mazda CX-90. I like those. You know what the best choice is in almost any situation? A Honda Odyssey, or a Kia Carnival, or maybe a Pacifica. If you’re at the Toyota dealer already, then it’s the Sienna, for sure.
Most people do not make this choice. The prime three-row buying group is a Millennial with their second kid either here or imminently on the way. My friends know what I do for a living and thus always ask for my advice before buying a car. They almost never take it, sometimes to their great detriment. Consumers must be overhearing my wisdom, because minivans are selling like Bomb Pops in Hades.
Here’s some interesting news. Lucid sales are way up, bucking the norm of startups. Some of this is probably due to the fact that they have a new SUV that is… a minivan. Let’s face it, it’s a minivan. It’s a great car for kids, and if you love kids, you’re going to love the new book from Kristen Lee. And while we’re talking about books, Larry Chen has one, too.
One might think The Morning Dump today would be dominated by the politics of the moment, but an extra long “magic minute” speech in the house is delaying the signing of the mega tax/budget bill, so I’m going to give myself a break here and leave the politics out of TMD as much as possible today. It’ll be there on Monday, and the temperature is quite high now. I’m going to let the mercury fall a bit and then, next week, when more of this is resolved, we can talk about “Large Engine Vehicles” and whatever other nonsense happens in the coming days.
Minivans Had A Huge Quarter
I don’t know who needs to hear this, but minivans are rad. MPVs are rad, too, and I’d have probably bought one if anyone sold an MPV in America. Instead, I bought the standard-issue two-row hybrid crossover, so my criticism of people who pass over a minivan and buy a crossover-SUV is going to be slightly hypocritical. If the Mazda5 were still in production, I might be in a different situation.
Minivans were once the hottest thing for families since Captain Crunch, and my theory on why people became minivan averse goes something like this:
- Recognizing that American families needed space, automakers created a huge number of wagon variants of sedans. This became such a cliché that National Lampoon’s Family Vacation effectively killed the station wagon with its Family Truckster. Not coincidentally, the premiere of that movie in 1983 nicely dovetails with the introduction of the Dodge Caravan the same year.
- The minivan itself became so common and so associated with a certain kind of maternal existence that it was replaced in the 1990s by the SUV in the form of the Ford Explorer and all the vehicles that followed it.
- SUVs became associated with gas-guzzling and endless wars in the Middle East, so they transitioned into giant three-row crossovers. [Ed Note: It helps that crossovers are just better on gas (fuel prices were rough around 2008-ish), plus they’re more comfortable and cheaper than beefy body-on-frame SUVs, while still giving off a similar SUV vibe. -DT].
Because my fellow Millennial parents grew up in the backs of Previas and Quests and the like, buying one can represent a certain sort of failure. A sense that you’ve fallen into the same trap as your parents. As my caretakers had a string of Escorts, Impulses, and B.R.A.T.s, it doesn’t hit the same for me, which means I can recognize that the modern minivan is a marvel of packaging and efficiency.
Thomas already made this point well in his Sienna review, but you can’t get more capabilities, space, ease of use, or even luxury in any other vehicle sold in the United States. If you want something efficient, there’s the Sienna or Carnival Hybrid. If you want a PHEV, there’s the Pacifica. If you want something surprisingly quick, there’s the Odyssey. You can hardly go wrong.
People agree! This year, let’s look at the field so far:
- Toyota Sienna: Up 61% y-o-y with 52,672 sales
- Honda Odyssey: Up 28% with 50,033 sales
- Kia Carnival: Up 57% with 35,152 sales
- Chrysler Pacifica/Voyager: Down 22% with 22,938 sales
The Pacifica is older and less competitive, so that’s a bit of an outlier here. As Car And Driver points out, the ID.Buzz is also showing weak sales, which has nothing to do with the collective lust for minivans and more to do with the van’s unavoidable flaws.
Finally, the minivan has returned.
Lucid Sales Are Up As The Gravity Begins Deliveries
Here’s a fun one! For all the sales slumping that’s occurring at Tesla and Rivian, that isn’t happening at Lucid Motors. The there-but-for-the-grace-of-the-PIF electric automaker is doing quite well, thank you. Will that change once the IRA tax credit for leasing goes away? I don’t know, and I’m not going to talk about it right now.
Let’s let the kids have their day. Q2 deliveries were up 38% year-over-year to 3,309 vehicles, as production and delivery of the admittedly exceptional Lucid Gravity started. I know David has been sort of critical of this thing being a big jelly-bean minivan in the past, saying:
[W]ith the Lucid Gravity, I have a suspicion that engineers won most of the arguments with designers, and I have always been firmly in the camp that thinks designers should tell engineers what to do, thereby compelling them to come up with interesting technical solutions. I don’t think it should be the other way around, because design is simply too important, especially in this price class.
Perhaps, given the news above, people actually want minivans. The Carnival is a minivan that looks like an SUV, the Gravity is an SUV that looks like a minivan. Both might work. I’m going to have to wait for registration data in a few months to find out how well the Gravity is doing, as Lucid doesn’t break out individual sales. I did get a Lucid spokesperson to confirm that at least one Gravity was delivered, which is backed up by social media posts.
Pre-Order Kristen Lee’s Kids’ Book About Cars
The great automotive journalist and equally great pal-of-this-site Kristen Lee has a new book for kids coming that’ll explore things that go. It’s literally called “The 50 States: Things That Go” and includes some awesome stock cars on the cover, I assume, for New Hampshire. From the publisher:
Buckle up and get ready to hit the road on an adventure through all 50 states to discover the fastest, wackiest, and most rip-roaring vehicles across the United States—from race cars and roller coasters to submarines and trains. From the roaring racing cars of Indiana to the soaring space shuttles of Florida, travel through 50 states with vehicle expert and enthusiast Kristen Lee, and uncover more than 500 facts that showcase the vehicles, history, and spirit of the USA.
The California page includes both Sally Ride and the Corkscrew, so I already love it. Pre-order it wherever you pre-order books.
Also, Get Larry’s Book While You’re At It
Did I just do all of your holiday shopping for you? You’re welcome. Larry Chen, the most influential photographer of his/my generation, has a book coming out called “Life At Shutter Speed” and it’s going to be big and beautiful (maybe a bad word choice, sorry). It’s also being published by our friends at Carrara Books, so you know it’ll look great.
Known for his complete and total immersion into the automotive scene, Chen has earned a reputation for capturing photos that could only be achieved with unlimited access. As a result, the images in Life At Shutter Speed have defined the modern era in cars, in events, in people and in an entire generation of enthusiasts.
“This book helped me relive so many pivotal moments throughout my career. It perfectly encapsulates my mission to capture and celebrate car culture.”
There are two versions, and while neither is cheap, they are art pieces (I got a preview of the book, so I’m giving you my word here). You can pre-order this book here.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
My daughter has been learning to drum, and we use a drumming program that allows her to practice with simplified versions of various songs. The best so far has been “There She Goes” by the La’s. Last night I excitedly played “Bombtrack” by Rage Against The Machine. She was a little slow to pick it up because she did not listen to this song 19,000 times as a youth. I tried to rectify this by playing it on the car this morning, assuming Apple Music would pick the album version, which, unlike a lot of RATM’s songs, doesn’t have any obscenities. Instead, Apple Music played the live version, and boy does that Zack de la Rocha character love to drop F-bombs. Thanks, Apple Music.
The Big Question(s)
What are your holiday weekend road trip plans? Also, would you ever buy a minivan?
Top photo: Fesley Music/Toyota
My holiday week (plus) involves being driven around Ireland with some relatives by a tour guide. Started in Dublin on Monday, Heading back to the US next Tuesday. On the distillery tour today, I saw a couple cool antique trucks. I’d post pictures, but…
Anyway, I’m looking forward to sitting in the van watching the scenery tomorrow.
I’ve been loving the Car-nival (hey Kia, what’s a Nival btw?) since the first generation! Man if it had an awd option I would have been all over it, that to me is serious contender vibe to the Bus legacy. And yea, Get Shorty had it right, minivans are the biz.
I’ve never had the need to purchase a minivan, so instead I’m just going to focus on your daughter learning drums.
Simply put, that’s frickin’ awesome. There’s no such thing as too many drummers, especially too many female drummers. I just sold a car to a gentleman a few days ago that was for his teenage daughter. Not only did I discover she had just started taking lessons, but I also discovered her favorite band is Soundgarden.
Perhaps there is hope for humanity after all, regardless of all depressing evidence to the contrary. It’s probably easier to be a parent of a drummer these days. Electronic drums weren’t readily available or affordable when I started playing in the early 80s. In retrospect, my parents were saints by not only encouraging me, but tolerating the noise.
Anywho, Brad Wilk’s style is a masterclass in groove and syncopation, and I always recommend developing those skills before trying to be the next Gavin Harrison.
I wish your daughter well!
Seconded on the well wishes for your daughter’s endeavor! Two others to introduce her to: Joe Morello on the cool, older side and Kavka Shishido on the modern end of the spectrum. And you don’t have to worry about your daughter learning any unfortunate new words with either of them.
Check out Stanton Moore, he’s always been one of my favorites. He’s the longtime drummer for Galactic, but has some great solo albums and has collaborated with tons of folks.
When I lived in Raleigh a couple decades ago, I had the good fortune of not only attending a clinic he did in my friend’s music store, but also watching from the side of the stage with Galactic that night. I became a believer that day.
Hell yeah!
Hadn’t heard of Stanton Moore, but after a couple of minutes of youtube, I know what musical rabbit hole I’m going down tonight. Thank you!
We’re in a CX90 PHEV. If the Pacifica wasn’t the only PHEV minivan, maybe we’d have sliding doors.
The issue with modern minivans is they are nerfed for towing.
My 99 Astro can tow 5700lbs. I even installed a brake controller. It’s BIG inside, even though it takes up the same parking space as a normal minivan.
Basically please someone remake the Astro van with a diesel or something. 🙂
The Metris might suit your needs. It’s RWD, and MB just stopped selling them here last year.
Just replied with the same answer as you! Great minds think alike!
But Mercedes didn’t stop selling them as far as I can tell. You just have to go to their separate mbvans site:
https://www.mbvans.com/en/metris
Need AWD for winter and boat launches too. I sold my RWD truck after getting stuck at the launch, so embarassing
Maybe an AWD Sprinter or AWD Ford Transit for you then? Though if you want diesel, then it’ll be the Sprinter.
And the reason the Astro could tow was because it was an S10 underneath.
The closest truck-based small-van you can get these days would be the Mercedes Metris. And the Metris can tow up to 5000lbs in passenger form (up to 7500lbs in cargo form) and comes with a turbodiesel.
https://www.mbvans.com/en/metris
Kind of wasn’t tho. No real frame like an S10.
Buy one. I own one. With stow-n-go it’s the only vehicle able to accommodate my hobby, unless I use a truck and enclosed trailer. The minivan costs less to own and operate, parts are plentiful and cheap, plus it’s easy to repair.
Humanity is perpetually running away from the things they perceive as “not cool” due largely to its association with how they viewed their parents using said things. No surprise.
The only difference this time is the thing so often mentioned here: crossovers and small SUVs are easier for older people getting in and out of but perhaps the younger crowd might realize they can more easily slide the car seats into something more suited to it and it’s just different from what they remember as a kid.
Remember folks; you will be just as uncool as your parents were when you have kids. Run all you want. Time is linear.
As a proper millennial, I was the number 1 minivan hater. till I snagged a cheap ody back during the pandemic. It’s basically a people hauler and minitruck in one. I have transported all sots of things in it. Including this one time I had it on it’s bump stops with pavers from the local home depot.
I’m in Canada, so we already celebrated our country.
But, I DO have tomorrow off to care for my daughter. Which I’m going to do by bringing her to my buddy’s place to play with his daughter, while we pull the fuel tank out of his w123 Mercedes and figure out why it’s leaking.
I would gladly buy a minivan if any of them towed at least 6000lbs.
Edit: This also implies that I’ve convinced my spouse to go minivan, which she finds terminally uncool.
Speaking of Canada: Stellantis’ sales of Pacifica minivans was UP by 96% since last year. Total sales of all Chrysler’s vans together were only 6204 in the Great White North. Canadians are clearly buying proportionately more minivans than Americans – it’s no surprise they’re preferred over, say, a full-size SUV for space/comfort/price/fuel consumption reasons.
Slap some sliding doors on a Durango and let’s get this done.
The Pacifica is also a steaming pile of garbage and a piece of shit mechanically LOL
Hyundai needs to sell the Staria over here. Toyota should sell the Lexus LM over here. GM needs to sell the GL8 over here. Ford needs to bring back the Transit Connect.
Only the GL8 might be a viable design for sale here. Staria may be too tall (tight squeeze for garages) and weird for the average minivan buyer and lacks fold-in-floor seating. Similar with the LM, which doesn’t really offer much that a loaded Sienna Platinum wouldn’t already cover.
The Transit Connect is now a VW but it would also be unlikely to be much cheaper or efficient than a ‘typical’ minivan for someone to go that way.
My hottest take is that minivans (especially the Sienna and Odyssey) look rad as hell just lowered slightly and with well-chosen aftermarket wheels.
Having no kids and two dogs we have stuck with a series of station wagons which have most of the utility in a form factor I enjoy but if things had gone differently and we had kids we definitely would have ended up in a Sienna or Odyssey.
My parents are on their 5th Grand Caravan / Town and Country even though my brother and I have been out of the house for almost 25 years because they are so useful.
Wow. I’m honestly thrilled to see minivan sales way up. Hooray for more people making rational vehicle purchases.
Also, Stellantis really needs to start taking some marques behind the shed already.
“Because my fellow Millennial parents grew up in the backs of Previas and Quests and the like, buying one can represent a certain sort of failure. A sense that you’ve fallen into the same trap as your parents”
The trap wasn’t buying a minivan. It was getting old, fat, nostalgic and having kids. Nothing you buy will change that.
I occasionally think about picking up an old Sienna for a dog and mountain bike hauler. I don’t have any kids and I definitely don’t need the passenger capacity, but they’re so great for weekend camping trips, and I can just roll my bike inside without any issue.
I would, and I have. Minivans are the coolest.
I’ve probably written 300 different comments in support of the minivan on this site to the point where I’m basically a skipping record. But there’s just no vehicle out there as flexible as the modern minivan. If your lot in life is to transport people and cargo, there’s nothing else that does it better.
As for the stigma, I’ll just never understand it. I’ve never, ever looked at a 3-row crossover and saw anything other than kid bus. And they are EVERYWHERE. I understand not wanting a minivan and sticking with some other form factor that’s nothing like a minivan. But 3-row crossovers are just vans without all the great features that make driving a fat vehicle useful. Has anyone looked at a 40 year old getting out of a Pilot with 3 children and thought “yeah, that’s a really cool mom, not like regular moms”?
I think millennials are actually shifting into minivans more and more because a lot of us (I know a lot of millennial parents who have chosen vans over SUVs lately) seem to see through the marketing bullshit that sells Pilots, etc.
The Pacifica hasn’t been selling well of late, but I think a lot of that seems to be supply related, at least around here? There are zero PHEVs available, and only a couple of Pacificas on each lot locally. It sure doesn’t seem like dealers are sitting on a trove of them, but maybe that’s just around here.
I think the minivan stigma is mostly gone for Millennials, and that old minivan stigma is now reserved for crossovers and SUVs, as it should be.
If the mid-tier rental specs work for you – there are “tons” of Pacificas available just 1-2yrs old from the rental fleets. Pick your prefered mileage (30-60k mi) and slap on an extended warranty.
“But peeps tear up rentals it like they stole ’em!” Maybe… but what do people rent minivans for? Long hauls filled with precious family and cargo – the easiest of miles. Not a lot of hooning going down. Tricky/foldy interior bits can take a beating, tho.
Pro-tip: pass if the coolant bottle is low (less than 1/2), which you can usually spot from online underhood inventory pics.
I would have much rather gotten a Honda Odyssey, but my wife is “too cool” for a minivan, so we ended up in a Pilot.
Everybody has to be cool, in an SUV that looks exactly the same as every other one.
That’s why you buy the one in an actual color. We got a Smurf Blue Trailsport and had a Soul Red CX9 beforehand. Sticks out in a crowd even being the generic spawn hauler they are.
I left the house for something that wasn’t a doctor’s appointment last Friday for the first time this year – the family-friendly Pride event at the local zoo, for which I buy tickets for my niece and sister-in-law in what’s become a tradition – so no road trip on my schedule this weekend. I may start smoking again, but the 500 feet to the 7-11 is walkable even under heat dome conditions.
Even though I rarely would have used the extra capabilities, I sometimes regretted not opting for a Mazda 5 instead of Mazda 3 hatch back in 2009. If there were something that size on the market I’d definitely consider it, but current minivans are too big for me.
What are your holiday weekend road trip plans? Also, would you ever buy a minivan?
If I have to drive tomorrow, that means something went terribly wrong. The plan is to stay home and BBQ in the backyard.
I probably wouldn’t buy a current minivan because they aren’t really “mini.” I’m Team Mazda5/MPV. But that’ll available in the U.S. market about when Subaru sells the Levorg stateside.
I want more Fancy Kristen content but I will settle for regular Kristen’s book instead I guess
Going nowhere. Debating clocking out early to wash the R107 for a show tomorrow. Leaning towards not bothering.
I would probably own a minivan. I love supreme utility – previously had an Element and there’s a Vibe in our fleet now. But I love a full-size van more and currently lament no longer having one. They’re just cooler, and if I don’t have enough seats to haul people I never have to be the driver.
Buying a minivan as a single 30s guy is like flying in a strong, gusty crosswind between single women running away from you and single moms running towards you.
But Chrysler sold me forever with Stow n’ Go because I like having a free Dodge Dakota with purchase. Drop the seats and load 4x8s and cinder blocks, then lift them up in 90 seconds and get lunch with everyone in the division.
No to minivan but I see the value.
I want a wagon or, at least, a proper sized-hatchback that seats four normal sized adults without requiring those in the rear seat to duck for shameful rooflines or those in the front to slide their seats uncomfortably forward for rear seat legroom. But I also don’t want it to be the size of a barge, since I still need to park it. And, no, not another suv.
Part of the increase can likely be attributed to just plain more inventory. Seemed like van production was scaled back in the pandemic years.
I grew up in minivans, would buy one, recommend it every time. But having a number of friends and coworkers that have had or due to have kids soon, I’ve gotten the impression that minivans are viewed as a size ‘up’ from the larger 3-row crossovers – you get it when you regularly need a 3rd row, like 3+ kids. Doesn’t matter if they get something virtually the same in exterior dimensions, people have warped dimensions of how big vehicles are anyway.
As to price, it’s hardly the only situation where “buying something with less space and capabilities you won’t actually need or use” happens – can apply to a sport compacts vs. a midsize car too.
Minivans are the greatest thing since vans.