Last Sunday was Reformation Sunday, the day when my Lutheran side of the family celebrates the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic side of my family quietly grumbles, which is maybe why I feel so compelled to preach to the choir today. I don’t have 95 theses this morning, though, I just have two: Hybrids are good and Toyota is right to pursue a strategy that increases hybrids while not ignoring EVs.
Today’s Dump will be (almost) all about Toyota because there’s just a crap ton of Toyota news to talk about. From news about wage increases to profitability to EV investments, we’re super into it.
Oh, yeah, I guess we’ll also talk about Tesla’s successful lawsuit and about a CEO eviction because that’s in the news today.
Also, side note: Martin Luther would have loved that we call our morning news roundup The Morning Dump because Martin Luther loved poop jokes. Seriously.
Toyota’s Hybrids Are Now As Profitable As Its Gas-Powered Cars
Toyota put out a bunch of financial reports for the third quarter (their second quarter because they run on a different fiscal calendar), and you can see most of it here. There’s a lot of information, and most of it is good.
From a financial standpoint, it looks like the fiscal year ending in March 2024 will likely be the best ever if nothing wild happens in the next fiscal half-year. In just the last quarter, the company’s net income was up to a whopping $8.6 billion, compared to about $2.9 billion for fiscal Q2 (calendar Q3) last year. Revenue also rose almost 25% to $76.6 billion.
Buried in all of that information, though, is a key piece of information, summarized nicely by Automotive News:
Profit parity for hybrids is a big, big, big deal. Toyota’s hybrids command a small premium over non-hybrids (a base Corolla costs $21,900 while a base Corolla Hybrid starts at $23,300), and that’s apparently enough to cover the additional costs. In the example of the Corolla, the vehicle’s city MPG jumps from 32 mpg to 53 mpg, a not insignificant amount.
While there are some obvious advantages to a society that has more EVs than gas-powered vehicles, the market has simply not been able to provide the affordable EVs that people want in much of the world. For reasons both political and practical, the charging infrastructure and the incentives to buy vehicles that are at a low enough cost haven’t yet materialized. Society will get there, eventually, but the crash EV program that the U.S. is doing right now hasn’t worked yet.
Hybrids are a great interim step, and Toyota has the best hybrid lineup in the business, having gotten a huge start with Prius.
Toyota Hasn’t Totally Given Up On EVs, Doubles Investment In NC Plant
Akio Toyoda is still the Chairman of Toyota, though he’s no longer the CEO. What he says matters and for what feels like the last 900 years, the departed (from The Autopian) Patrick George has been working a giant piece on Toyoda for Road & Track and he finally published the damn thing, which you can read here, and includes this great section on Toyoda’s seeming resistance to electrification:
Questioned about this, he insisted he’s not against EVs but has doubts they can be the only solution to cars’ contributions to climate change. “What we are really fighting against is carbon,” he said at Le Mans. “But if I’m asked, will that be the only option, or only solution to global warming, then I have some questions.”
For one, he said, Toyota operates everywhere in the world; “There are about 1 billion people among our customer base who do not have enough electricity infrastructure in their everyday lives,” he said. “If we say that [EVs] are the only options that we should pursue, what will happen to these people?”
Toyota downgraded its guidance for FY 2023, saying it’ll only sell about 123,000 EVs, way short of its initial goal of 202,000 EVs. So is the EV dream dead? Not quite.
The AP has a story out today from North Carolina about Toyota’s plan to double its investment in its massive battery plant outside of Greensboro.
The Japanese automotive manufacturer projects the new investment will create about 3,000 additional jobs, bringing the total to more than 5,000 jobs, when its first U.S. automotive battery plant begins operations near Greensboro in 2025. The plant will serve as Toyota’s epicenter of lithium-ion battery production in North America and will be a key supplier for the Kentucky-based plant tasked with building its first U.S.-made electric vehicles, the company said.
Toyota’s fourth and largest investment in the North Carolina facility brings its total investment to about $13.9 billion to help meet its goal of selling 1.5 million to 1.8 million electric or hybrid vehicles in the U.S. by 2030. It will also add eight new production lines for electric and plug-in hybrid batteries.
While it’ll make batteries for hybrids, the plan is also to support the sale of EVs in the United States by being able to take advantage of tax credits. Toyata’s hybrid advantage is great, but this doesn’t mean the company can skate forever without competitive EVs (the Bees Forks ain’t it), especially for Lexus, which is losing massive market share to Tesla.
Toyota Reportedly Raises Salaries For Employees In North America
Huh, what a strange coincidence. Just days after the United Auto Workers reached a tentative deal with the Detroit Three automakers that will see huge pay increases and a massive reduction in the time it takes to reach the top pay level, Toyota is reportedly doing the same thing.
From pro-labor site Labor Notes:
Fain said the other reason for the longer contract was that the UAW is planning a push to organize the many nonunion automakers: Tesla, Toyota, Volkswagen, Mercedes, BMW, Honda, Nissan, and others. “When we return to the bargaining table in 2028, it won’t just be with the Big 3, but with the Big 5 or Big 6,” he said.
Labor Notes received a message from a Toyota worker in Alabama the next day, saying management had called an emergency meeting. Toyota—clearly running scared—was raising top pay to $32, he said, and shortening the time to get there from eight years to four. Another worker at a Toyota plant in Kentucky said the company was boosting wages and slashing the progression to top rate in half there, too. The new top rate will increase to $2.94 to $34.80 for production workers and $3.70 to $43.20 for skilled trades.
If this is happening it’s just a super strange coincidence.
Tesla Wins Lawsuit Over Autopliot Crash
In what could be a good sign for Tesla’s many legal issues regarding its Autopliot system, a jury yet again determined that Tesla wasn’t liable for a crash in California:
The outcome in civil court shows Tesla’s arguments are gaining traction: when something goes wrong on the road, the ultimate responsibility rests with drivers.
[…]
The 12-member jury announced they found the vehicle did not have a manufacturing defect. The verdict came on the fourth day of deliberations, and the vote was 9-3.
So, just remember that the next time you try to use an assisted driving system. If something goes wrong, it’s your fault.
Ex-Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn Is Apparently Getting Kicked Out Of His House
Lebanon might not allow its citizens to be extradited, but a court in the country just decided that former Nissan-Renault Chairman/CEO Carlos Ghosn can’t just keep living in the house Nissan purchased for him.
A Lebanese judge has decided to evict former Nissan boss Carlos Ghosn from his luxury home, a judicial official has said, four years after an investment firm accused him of “trespassing.”
Ghosn, who took up residence in the Beirut property after fleeing prosecution in Japan in 2019, appealed the ruling on Friday, the official added. A spokesperson for Ghosn confirmed he had appealed.Ghosn and his wife must “vacate the property … within a month,” according to a copy of the decision dated Oct. 16.
Ghosn’s legal team says they have new documents that weren’t available at the trial that will show the house is actually his. It’s a bummer for Ghosn, but we’re sure he could downgrade from the $19 million mansion as we know he’s used to cramped quarters.
The Big Question
Do you think the new Prius is sexy? Also, bonus question: Do you get the topshot joke?
Hybrids are so much easier for the regular person to swallow right now, there is too much to overwhelm and not nearly enough reliable infrastructure and consistency with full EVs. it also helps that the Prius and corolla look better than they ever have in decades.
my parents, were completely OK with looking at hybrids as a next vehicle for my mom later next year and I was completely surprised by that considering how against and not convinced of the reliability of a full EV they have been.
yes we need to get them off the gas, but much more still needs to be done for the wider public.
I’m glad to see Toyota investing more in the NC plant given there’s also VINfast an hour or so away and who knows how that’s going to play out.
I’ve never been one for calling cars “sexy” but find the Prius to be a good looking vehicle. It’s relatively unimportant now in the overall Toyota lineup however, and as others mentioned the Prius styling has made it more compromised than past versions – but Toyota’s selling so many other hybrids they don’t need it to serve as many purposes as it once did.
Beyond just the price (which even a Corolla hybrid is now same/better MPG and costs less than Prius’ of yore), the hybrid versions of existing nameplates are at a point where they’ve ironed out packaging compromises that used to come with the nonhybrid version, or still do in some other brands. Older Camry and Avalon hybrids meant you lost trunk space and full split-folding rear seat over the regular sedan, but no more, even the smaller Corolla still maintains the same. Or say a spare tire, which a CR-V hybrid lacks but the RAV4 hybrid has. It also helps that the hybrids tend to drive better than the equivalent nonhybrid.
Big time “yee” to your final point. When it comes to NPC cars the hybrid versions are usually the fastest and most engaging versions because we’re at a point that we know how to use batteries to give a performance boost in addition to an efficiency boost.
The new Prius is the first one that I’ve seen and thought, “wow, that looks good!”. If I were in the market for a smallish sedan it would be on my shortlist.
I’m elated for the US Toyota workers, good for them! I was hoping the UAW would have this effect.
This is why having somewhat strong unions in a sector is important. Collectively bargaining compensation puts pressure on non-union shops to be fair or else their workers will either leave for the union shop or unionize themselves. It also is a good way of making pay more transparent since it’s written into the contract. Then determining compensation for a new employee isn’t completely up to the whims of the HR manager. When discrepancies happen it makes things more cut and dried since determining compensation is written out.
That isn’t to say things are perfect. HR can still lowball someone into a lower pay bracket where they’re stuck starting from if they take the job. Inversely HR can generously read the contract if they want to attract someone.
On the Prius: Does it look good? Yes. Was it difficult for me to drive because my head was brushing against the headliner and I had to kind of hunch down to actually see out? Also yes. Was the leg room kinda tricky? It wasn’t great. Would it have been possible to get comfortable in it with more seat adjustment? I mean, maybe, it was just a test drive. Are most of my friends somehow even larger than me? Actually yeah. Would we be able to go anywhere in my car if I bought one? I can’t see that being possible.
How tall are you? Because cars I can’t fit in comfortably are a big no for me.
I’m 6 feet – though it’s mostly in the leg. I’m actually not used to feeling like headroom is limited.
I would recommend trying it on for yourself, I have admittedly weird proportions.
Regarding the topshot joke:
Is this how David Tracy feels all the time?
ROLL OUT THE DUNCE BOOTLICKERS WHO SAID THE INDUSTRY WILL COLLAPSE
Or, the UAW was able to get a pay increase for non-union shops, through their work. Fain continues to dominate.
I posted an article about the wage increase as good news on the 4Runner forum I go to, last time I checked the comments were “a rising tide lifts all inflation”, and “great, cue the price increase next year”, and so on.
And here I am, just happy that some fellow American workers are about to be a little less crushed. F#ck me, right?
“IF I CANNOT BE HAPPY, NO ONE CAN BE HAPPY”
Oh yeah? Well…just WAIT until they try that with God Emperor Elon! He’s going to wipe unions out forever with his stable genius and infinite money! That greedy Fain who’s LEACHING off the HARD EARNED success of very neat and ethical corporations is totally gonna get OWNED!
You all will be sorry when I become a billionaire and get to treat my employees like shit! Good luck trying to work for me, pal. I’m gonna 1% all over the place and Musk is definitely going to notice me!
God Emperor is a good comparison because when I think of Elon, I picture a giant worm with a human head.
exactly the energy this guy gives off
Oh, sorry. “That Guy.” Had the username off a bit.
THE “BOOTLICKER” RECORD IS BACK
Don’t be that guy
Industry collapse doesn’t happen overnight, geez the contracts aren’t even approved yet, tentative approval and 1 week later proclaiming they won’t hurt the manufacturers or the industry.
Can’t wait to hear the workers complain that now with the raises they are in a higher tax bracket paying more taxes or are no longer paying zero income taxes. Then when their profit sharing checks are much smaller. Surely it is all explained to them…
Except when your income rises, so do your choices. Especially when it comes to taxes.
It doesn’t matter in 4yrs most of them won’t be any better off, they will piss is all away. What is gained may also be negated from things lost; smaller profit checks, higher taxes, loss of govt benefits, less financial assistance for their kids college, etc. Plus if the company mandates max 401k in order to receive the match, then they will be withdrawaling from that blowing those $ and be screwed at retirement. Biggest part of it is they are horrible with their money and financial decisions, in 4yrs they will still have empty bank accounts and then be pissing and moaning on the next contract fight.
The companies are screwed but they started what they need for their survival, not coincidental they all just started crying; building EVs is tough, expensive, no one is buying them, wah wah. All about getting the IRA changed; increasing the credit, increasing vehicle MSRP, increasing income thresholds, lowering restrictions. Look for massive IRA changes by Jan 2025, without it the big 3 are doomed.
So is your point that auto workers are stupid? Just curious.
BTW, my family had shit loads of cash, but I still got thru college without a student loan. Or a dime from my family. And why do you hate ignorant people? /s
The “crash program for EVs” has barely begun to break ground regarding chargers. Despite that, EV sales in the US are up about 50% YoY.
With the IRA Act, it is possible to get a very good price on an EV, and all makes are eligible for lease rebates. Used prices have dropped as well.
The price of batteries, driven by EV adoption, probably accounts for toyota’s profit margin, as well as the fact they have a low profit margin.
My experience with owning an EV is that it’s a joyful bundle of smooth quiet torque, filled and ready every morning. YMMV.
Yeah, I think I’m ready to go full EV for largely those reasons (also, I live in an area with plentiful hydro, wind, and solar, so the electric cost is low). I just wish they’d stop pushing functions to touchscreens. The Mach-E even has drive modes in a touchscreen menu. Do people really choose whether they want sport, normal, or eco before a drive and just leave it?
In most EVs the drive mode just changes the accelerator mapping. Some higher end models dial in suspension and tweak a few other things like climate control, but yes I think most people find the setting they like a stick with it. I drive my Niro EV in Eco mode and rarely change it. Pedal to the metal does the same thing no matter the mode, and you just get used to whatever mapping you typically drive in.
I like to change my drive mode on the fly, personally. Eco is great for city driving, but I prefer the throttle mapping of normal for freeway driving. I don’t really need sport for much, but I prefer an easy button for switching.
I’d probably get used to it and just leave a Mach E in normal, but I also didn’t care for the touchscreen climate control or the chintzy feel of the volume knob stuck to the screen, so I’ll likely end up in something else, anyway.
Good to know that sticking with one setting is the norm. Makes more sense, then.
I don’t use the drive mode very often in my Maverick hybrid outside of road trips or snow. The eco mode is great for country highways going 55 mph and the slippery mode does a great job adjusting the brake pedal to force you to slow down earlier and gentler.
I kick my current car (Niro PHEV) into sport mode fairly often, and I did the same on the Civic I had before it. Maybe I’m making too much of a thing of hiding the modes in menus, but I don’t care for it.
Oh yeah, if it was in a menu I’d possibly never change the mode settings. The Maverick has a little button for drive modes next to the rotary shifter so it’s easy enough to access.
Yeah, I feel like the control scheme of the Maverick works. I wish EVs didn’t feel the need to avoid buttons.
I drive a KIA Niro. I like KIAs because they balance the touch screen with physical controls. For example, the regen level is controlled by flappy paddles and you can use it like gears – heavy regen into a curve, less when accelerating out of the curve. Modes are also controlled either with buttons or a stalk. You can go almost all touchscreen, but you have a choice.
Yes, I agree! I’m actually driving a Niro PHEV now and considering the EV6 because it has more physical controls than most EVs. I’m also tempted to wait for the Equinox EV for the same reason.
I have determined that my next car will be an EV, and hopefully I’m in a place where I can install a charger next to parking when I get it. I could do the majority of the things I need on a single charge and the rare times when I need to go further there are ample chargers on the way.
I’m not confident buying a used one though. Not because of battery fear, but because the internet is full of “EVs don’t require maintenance” idiots. I only want a car if I think the previous owner thinks about their brake pads sometimes, for example.
If you buy a relatively new 1-owner used EV there isn’t much to worry about, the car was leased or under warranty and was taken in at regular service intervals in most cases. There’s not really much maintenance to neglect in 30-50k miles on an EV either.
Granted, though if life’s trajectory continues as it has new will be a viable option anyway so I’m not averse to going that way.
I do think we need a “your EV still has wear items” campaign though, especially since the main wear item is brakes and I think those are pretty vital.
Thing is, they really don’t require maintenance unless something breaks prematurely or you get up to quite high mileage, at least 100k and probably more like 200k miles. You’ll have to replace tires sure, but probably not brakes unless you drive like a maniac all the time or just don’t use regen braking for some reason. And even then, tires and brake pads/rotors are easy to check and easy to replace, so I don’t get the concern. It’s not anything like skipping oil changes on an ICE.
The regen braking is strong enough on most EVs that the mechanical brakes are only really for emergency braking. I expect the mechanical brakes on our mach-e to last for at least 200k miles, possibly more. They’re basically lifetime components for most people on most EVs. Oh, and don’t think you’re going to get even close to the mileage per charge estimates if you are not using regen braking.
Frankly, the health of the battery might be the *only* thing you should really be concerned with when purchasing a used EV.
I mean, I did see a guy on the internet convinced that Teslas didn’t have coolant, so battery life could be affected by internet “well you don’t need to actually MAINTAIN your EV” people.
And, as I said, I just want to know that the previous owner thought about their wear items, regularly checked to see if they needed replacement or adjustment, that kind of thing.
Maintaining something isn’t necessarily replacing parts, but making sure that everything is working together – and occasionally that can mean you replace parts a lot less, because you’re doing stuff that keeps them working better. Stuff like, as mentioned elsewhere, shaking the rust off the brakes occasionally.
248k miles on my hybrid – still on original brake pads and rotors. I use it for in city delivery and I think that’s actually what enables the long life. People who either don’t drive as often or drive on the highway have shorter life on the rotor due to rust, and the rust on the rotors eats the brake pads.
That’s a specific recommendation in a lot of hybrid and EV manuals, isn’t it? “Regen is great but hit the brakes hard occasionally to get the rust off.”
And that’s what I mean with maintenance too. I’m not saying “EVs chew through brakes” but “EV owners should be taking care of their brakes” and following basic recommendations like that. Maintenance isn’t necessarily expensive, and it might just mean regularly checking the status of stuff. But “you don’t need to be maintaining this” makes me think “I shouldn’t be buying this from you.”
When the second gen Prius landed (the one that caught on), I recall seeing them all over Vancouver taxi fleets. Got to talking with one of the drivers and speculated they were using them to reduce fuel costs and possibly using them as a branding exercise too. He surprised me by saying they had also reduced their maintenance costs, especially for brakes. This also led to less downtime for the fleet. All of that apparently offset the cost of eventually writing off the battery. His car had somewhere north of 350K KM on it at the time.
Here in Toronto, the taxi fleets appear to be mostly Camry hybrids. This is a business that has to watch their bottom line to squeeze out a living and taxis take a beating. That’s got to be the best endorsement of Toyota’s hybrid solutions. Maybe this is the 21st century Panther platform?
I have a C-Max, and maintenance costs are much lower than any other car I’ve driven. Just tires, oil, hoses and suspension/wheel bearings – and this week a brake pedal switch (which really confuses the electronics.) No belts on my car, no alternator, no starter. In comparison to my last car, my C-Max paid for itself in fuel savings alone a couple of years ago.
My commute is less than four miles each way (buses aren’t a realistic option. but I did get a cheap e-bike and would use it more if I could wake up a little earlier) and there’s free L2 charging in the parking garage, so an EV makes sense for me. I don’t know what the carbon-friendliest timeframe for replacing my late mom’s 2003 Grand Marquis is (I totaled my one-owner 2009 Mazda 3s Grand Touring, damn it), but I suspect it’s “never.” Regardless, even if I were ready to buy right now I’d wait until after the first of the year when the tax credit is applied at point of sale, and I suspect some of the EV sales declines are due to others thinking the same way.
Yeah – in the city I use an e-bike. Sales of EVs in the US are up 50% YoY, so I am puzzled by prevailing idea of a decline. But sure – next year is pretty soon, and it sure feels more real when you get the immediate discount. Carbon is one criteria, but these things are fun to drive. The Bolt was the most fun because it is small, has 200hp and about 300torques. LOL
Do I think the new Prius is sexy?
sharp and modern looking, sure. but sexy? naah
Do I get the topshot joke? nope
“Do you think the new Prius is sexy?”
No. Absolutely not. I don’t like the styling of the new Prius at all. The wheels are too big. The side windows are too small. The windshield is too large and too slanted. Everything about this car seems out of proportion. The front end styling is also weird. It looks like someone someone squashed a dustbuster van. To me, it looks like a Model 3, but only if the guy who designed the Model 3 tried to draw a car after consuming a large amount of hallucinogenic mushrooms.
Honestly, I can’t fathom why everyone thinks this car looks good. Is this some kind of weird joke I am not in on?
Have you seen one in the wild? Or pictures only? In person, the new design is is pretty spiffy IMHO.
I have seen a few. They look better in the wild than in pictures, but I still find the styling and overall shape awkward. My assumption was this car was designed to maximize aerodynamics and fuel efficiency, with aesthetics being a secondary concern. While I don’t like how this car looks at all, I suppose it may be as nice looking as a car can be while maximizing efficiency. Unfortunately, “nice looking for an aerodynamically efficient car” is very different from a car that is just plain nice looking.
I appreciate an efficient design and I think the Prius is an excellent vehicle for what it is trying to achieve. I’m still very surprised that people find this car attractive, though.
I think they look a lot better than previous generations.
Hahaha I posted a very similar comment on an article last week. It is a caricature of modern car design. It has horrendous proportions. It is shaped like an egg.
Not one person agreed with me.
The ONLY way it looks good is compared to the previous generation, which was one of the ugliest vehicles ever made.
Caricature is a good description. It looks like a vehicle that should be in the background of an anime film set in the 22nd century. It is a car that is designed to look futuristic, but with a 1990s vision of what the future looks like.
I would add that in addition to the new one looking fugly, the OG Prius looks like that same guy on shrooms smashed his head into the design clay on his way down to the floor.
They look good because the prior generations looked worse. I like em.
I agree it looks better than the 3rd or 4th generation Prii. I disagree that it looks better than the first two, though. I like the styling of the OG Prius and the 2nd generation is bland but inoffensive. The new Prius is anything but bland. I can see why some people might like it, but I would expect it to be somewhat polarizing.
I like the look of the new Prius, but I wonder how much of my admiration for it is imply due to its novelty. I wonder if I’ll still feel the same way in 10 years when there’s a line of dozens of them at the Uber pickup area at the airport, all in gray, cheap Autozone seat covers in the back, Camry dent in the bumper, and several little “Black Ice” flavored little trees fighting a losing battle against the offensive odors inside.
Are hybrids really the answer? I see that oft repeated but it doesn’t make sense to me. The most efficient hybrids on the market in 2023 are only now beginning to be as efficient as a diesel made 40 years ago.
Since MPG and carbon emissions are proportional, and the new hybrid DEFINITELY produces more CO2 during manufacturing, it kinda seems like small diesels are the answer, not hybrids.
Folks buying a new Ford Maverick hybrid might be surprised to learn that 40 years ago, Isuzu sold a diesel pickup in the US that was EPA rated for 54 mpg, and Toyota, Nissan, and VW sold offerings that were not far behind.
Bear in mind that “hybrids are the answer” while most small ones get at best 55 MPG, and the Hummer EV (not small or aerodynamic in any way) gets 53 MPGe… just sayin
I’m hoping that GM introduces a range extender for the Hummer EV that allows it to eat smaller vehicles for a little boost.
#Innovation
Well mpge is a fictitious and useless measurement, and the EPA has made it very clear that the lifetime CO2 emissions of a Hummer EV is more than most gas only cars.
it’s legit it stands for Mile Per Gallon equivalent. It take the energy density in a gallon of gasoline and translates that to the energy density within a battery pack. Bear in mind that the Hummer EV has a 212kWh battery, the equivalent to less than 6.5 gallons of gasoline. It goes 330 miles… what 330 mile truck shaped like brick can go that far on 6 gallons of gas?
For example: 330 miles on 6.3 gallons of gas equivalent is 52.4 real MPG.
It makes sense, except there is no machine on earth that can extract 100% of the energy from a gallon of gasoline, or anything close to it. The amount of energy in gasoline is NOT the same amount of energy that is possible to extract from gasoline.
So an electric car that is 100% as efficient as is possible will have a wildly higher mpge rating than a combustion car that is 100% as efficient as possible(ideal carnot engine). Making it a not useful comparison.
thats not how that works
What’s not how what works?
VW essentially killed small diesels. Plus, the diesel pump is always gross, it’s about a dollar per gallon more than gas, and now one has to deal with DEF fluid and potentially more expensive services.
That 40 year old diesel made about 80hp (if that) and would be dangerously underpowered today while generating enough pollution to choke a donkey. Even then those cars were considered pathetically slow.
The diesel pump IS always gross. My family had a diesel E Class I drove on and off about 10 years ago. Filling it up was never as simple as finding a gas station that had diesel. Probably half the time the diesel pump was broken, and when it wasn’t it was usually barely functioning.
I also never once encountered a diesel pump with an auto stop feature. I’m not sure if that’s due to regulations or just gas stations cheaping out/not giving a fuck about their diesel pumps…but you just had to keep your eye on the gallons and ballpark it based on what your tank was showing.
You’re going to wind up overfilling it at some point. It was inevitable. Happened to everyone in my family at least once while the car was getting passed around. And if you decide to take it out in rural areas good luck, because most of the diesel pumps you find are set up for filling farm equipment.
Going with a diesel in the states is more of a compromise than people make it out to be. Hell I’d go so far as to say it’s similar to having an EV other than the fact that it can be refueled a little faster.
I grew up with a diesel VW and this was not my experience. I think my dad had to use a pump intended for semis one time over the course of maybe 5 years. Otherwise it was just like any other car except for having to watch for the signs on the highway that said they had diesel (and being a MK IV it smelling like crayons AND diesel). Personally I aim for the large travel stops (TA, Loves) anyways because they have clean bathrooms, and those always have diesel. Locally this was not a problem because we of course knew what stations had diesel.
This was the midwest, curious as to what area you are talking about.
I had issues in the DC area and, curiously enough, rural VA.
Doesn’t seem to be a problem for like 70% of new 3/4 ton buyers…..
They know the deal, and small price to pay compared to the joy of rolling coal and triggering the libz.
Beyond that, when they’re actually used for work those trucks are the only place where diesel actually makes sense.
What?! I’ve owned a diesel truck for almost 9 years now and I’ve never encountered a diesel pump without auto stop. Even the big truck ones work fine as long as you only turn them on to the lowest click. I haven’t driven it everywhere in the US, but I’ve covered a pretty wide swath of the country so I can’t believe it’s a regional thing either.
The EPA’s fuel consumption tests have been continually adjusted to reduce MPG estimates since they were introduced in the 1970s. It wasn’t mentioned much in the media when the Obama administration announced the higher requirements for fleet MPG at the time, but the 54 MPG target was set according to the test procedures in place originally, and at that time (it was mentioned in the media at least once) the equivalent was 41 MPG by contemporary standards. (My memory of the exact numbers may be a bit off, but still.) And that doesn’t include any benefits of lower amounts of other pollutants hybrids produce compared to either diesel or gas-only engines – Toyota’s stated reason for developing the first-generation Prius (which made the second-generation Prius perform like a Porsche and look like a Jaguar by comparison) wasn’t for improved fuel consumption but for reduced emissions.
Seems like the “A Prius only gets the same mileage as a Metro did 30 years ago” argument – the Prius is going to be much quieter, quicker, and safer. Same is true of those trucks vs. a Maverick.
Modern diesels might better work for a counterpoint like the Equinox/Terrain diesels that got over 40mpg vs. a RAV4 Hybrid at similar mpg. But we’re at a point now the hybrids don’t sacrifice performance either. C/D tested an Equinox diesel, highway mileage was very good at 43mpg, but combined mileage was not a significant jump over a RAV4 hybrid at 2 mpg better. But the RAV was also a good deal quicker. Is that performance needed, perhaps not, but shows how far the tech has improved.
I really don’t remember and am only guessing from the carbon dioxide counts I briefly notice in British car reviews, but doesn’t it generate more carbon dioxide to produce a gallon of diesel than it does to produce a gallon of gasoline? I guess I could look it up, but I’m on my phone and I’m lazy.
I can’t imagine it’s much different. Oil is oil.
I looked it up. Burning one gallon of diesel or home heating oil (same thing except for the road fuel tax, so that buried oil tank your home inspector missed might be worth fixing up after all) generates 22.45 pounds of carbon dioxide, versus 19.37 pounds per gallon of standard gasoline or 17.86 pounds per gallon of E10, since biofuels are considered to be carbon-neutral (https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/co2_vol_mass.php). Producing diesel generates less carbon than producing gasoline, though, so this guy (https://innovationorigins.com/en/producing-gasoline-and-diesel-emits-more-co2-than-we-thought/) estimates the total carbon dioxide load from extraction to burning to be 3.14 kg/l for gasoline (not E10) and 3.31 kg/l for diesel, or about 5.4 percent more.
+1 for citations
Thanks. You see why I wasn’t eager to look it up at first. I really need to talk to my doctor about some psych meds to keep me from doing that
I was curious too after you mentioned, thank you for looking it up!
A lot has to do with the grade of crude that was used to start, but yes cracking to different fuels will have different emissions, due to process, of carbon and also methane; bad, bad stuff, since it’s often flared or leaks at the refiner. In some cases, it’s burn it at the refiner or burn it on the road, the carbon is still an inherent component.
Thanks
The hybrid definitely sacrifices complexity, upfront cost, and manufacturing emissions though, just to get the same fuel economy as a diesel.
A modern DPF/DEF equipped diesel is at least as complex and failure prone as any hybrid system.
probably more… especially failure prone
Add to that turbocharging – there are some turbo hybrids, but that’s not the majority as it is with most every diesel. (and I own a turbocharged car so not even trying to throw stones here.)
Let’s not forget about all the hybrid taxis running around for years out there not only from Toyota but Ford too…think it’s pretty well proven at this point.
That’s an excellent point, I keep forgetting that diesels are utter shit now that the EPA has thoroughly ruined them. Old diesels were good.
Yes, and that diesel pickup did 0-60 in about 25 seconds, and would get crushed in a minor accident.
This is bogus for comparing diesel vs. gas since diesel contains more carbon per gallon so burning 1 gallon of diesel will produce more carbon that burning 1 gallon of gas. Also, carbon is not the only problematic emission and diesels tend to produce a lot more of the other kinds, as you can literally see every time someone steps on the acclerator of a 40 year old diesel.
Also, I’m not sure your premise is valid even comparing fuel for fuel. A 40 year old car left running in a garage will absolutely kill you. From what I understand, you can run an entire tank of gas through a modern car and it likely won’t create enough emissions to kill you (not that anyone should try it). Modern vehicles have given up some MPG to create fewer emissions, so you can’t just compare MPG to MPG and assume emissions follow.
Your understanding is incorrect. Burning a whole tank of fuel, say 100 lbs, will create many garages worth of CO2 and suffocate you, to death.
It’s CO, not CO2 that kills people when they run cars in enclosed spaces. Given the number of factual errors you’ve made in this thread I don’t think I’ll take your word for anything (but again, don’t run your car in a closed garage – my point is cars have lower emissions per gallon than they used to so MPG is not the only metric to look at).
CO is what is famous for killing people in garages, but any gas that isn’t oxygen, including water vapor and CO2, will asphyxiate you if there’s enough. And a whole tank of fuel is many times more than enough.
I’m interested to hear what my other factual errors are…..
But these all took 1/2 hour just to get out of my driveway.
Diesels are old tech and really not that great when everything else has a 0-60 time under 7 seconds. How does a hybrid do over the long run on CO2 vs a minor bump in emissions to manufacture it? That is the real question.
BTW I grew up in Diesels. Not gonna go back.
The new Prius is an improvement, for sure. But I feel like the interior could use something. Maybe it’s just that it still feels like a Prius interior, but I just didn’t care much for it. They do get points from me for keeping physical buttons, though.
The interior is boring as hell and is the main reason I haven’t bought the car. Available in black or dark grey … wow, what scintillating options.
Yeah, it’s definitely boring as hell, the instrument cluster screen is positioned weirdly, and it somehow feels as small inside as the Prius from a couple generations back despite size increases. I really wanted to like it, but as soon as I sat in one, I was done considering it.
For all the hand wringing about the safety of foisting autopilot on consumers, Toyota should be called out for the poor ergonomics of that instrument cluster. Some kid’s idea of a cool video game I guess. 🙄
I prefer a light interior and there is a light grey option on the regular Prius – not exciting perhaps but certainly airier. However, the Prime is a black-only affair Prime, red accents aren’t enough. RAV4 Prime same deal.
And similar with Corolla Cross, which offers a two-tone mocha/grey interior that lightens it up in the regular XLE, but the top level XSE hybrid gets blue accents on the black cloth inserts at best.
Speaking of – every hybrid having to be a sport version with black wheels. Honda’s especially guilty of this, can’t get a CR-V Hybrid without black wheels, and stuck with black interior unless you shell out for top model.
And black wheels suck.
Yes! I also prefer a light interior. Both for aesthetics and because I like to minimize the ass burning on hot summer days.
I don’t hate black wheels on some models, but I am similarly annoyed that they seem to be the only option for very uncool cars like a CR-V.
The topshot is a mashup of All About My Mother dir. Pedro Almodovar, with a Prius, but I don’t get the joke.
It might just be because it’s All About Toyota?
But, yeah, that’s all I can come up with on it.
yes, All About Toyota. Don’t overthink it!
Okay, good. I was afraid that there was another layer I missed, since you gave us the answer (assuming we recognize the film).
Yes to Prius, no to joke unless it’s because woman parked her Prius in a no parking zone.
Toyota raising wages is a stunning example of the UAW fighting for wage increases affecting more than just the union members themselves.
Whilst Toyota might be raising them for reasons to keep out the union, the effect is similar.
I was wondering if this would happen, glad to see that it did. None of this directly benefits me, however I’m genuinely happy for anyone who gets a wage increase.
Regrettably I do not.
Amusing (?) satirical conspiracy theory incoming…
The industry already knew that hybrids were The Way, but consumers were reluctant to buy them. By loudly proclaiming that soon all vehicles would be BEVs, the industry generated the right amount of pushback to get people to buy hybrids.
Industry – Would you move from gas to hybrid?
Consumers – No, thanks
Industry – You’re going to move from gas to BEV.
Consumers – Hell, no! [angry noises]
Industry – Would you move from gas to hybrid?
Consumers – Yeah, okay
~fin~
😀
The time for the industry to go hybrid was 20 years ago, and they are still kind of dragging their feet on it. I really think they could have done it if they’d just started pushing out models that were reasonably efficient in popular segments. Instead, people associated the entire concept of hybrids with the Prius for far too long.
I may be wrong here, but 20 years ago who besides Toyota was making hybrids? The industry basically said “screw that” until Toyota proved it was a viable idea.
That’s what I am talking about. They let Toyota become THE hybrid manufacturer. That’s when all the manufacturers should have pushed into hybrids, and now they are trying to jump to EVs because they didn’t start work on hybrids when they should have and are now coming off the back foot after Toyota has already been running for 50 meters.
I got that, As usual Detroit let the others do the heavy lifting. Think may have misread your comment. In a perfect world l would buy an American car but very little of what Detroit makes has been of interest to me.
…waiting for somebody to explain the topshot joke…
I really like the new Prius, I’m just sad that they’re difficult to find in stock, and virtually impossible to find at MSRP. I ended up with a CPO Pacifica PHEV instead while I wait for better options to show up at a reasonable(ish) price.
I love hybrids and PHEVs and think the government should be incentivizing companies to get more of them on the road. But with fleet-based standards, companies basically need to: (1) drop all ICE vehicles and go fully hybrid/PHEV/BEV, or (2) keep the ICE line up and add some BEV. Hybrid and PHEV vehicles just don’t pull the fleet emission numbers far enough to meet the new standards. It’s annoying.
The standards were not handed down from god on stone tablets. With Republicans being no worse than even money to return to the White House a year from now, the automakers may just try to wait it out.
Even if they don’t change the standards though, selling profitable ICEs and paying fines may still end up better financially than selling more money-losing EVs.
Maybe Toyota has figured out that if they treat their workers fairly, a union becomes unnecessary.
Has Toyota not been treating their workers fairly up to now?
Would they be handing out panic raises if they were?
There’s a difference between a panic raise and proactively meeting a competitive offer.
lol let’s see what CB has to say on this one, should be a good time
“let’s see what CB has to say on this one”
I don’t know if any models will be discussing this on Chatur…
Whoops! Never mind.
perfection
Toyota has been very fair to its workers, primarily to avoid unions. That strategy should keep working for them but the unions still set the bar for other automakers to meet. Considering the issues surrounding Tesla and its low pay, they’re going to have to (allegedly) break even more federal (and state) laws to prevent grassroots organization efforts.
Or offshore. They’ve already got a factory in China, why not make more? If not China there’s India, Vietnam, Thailand, Mexico,…
If all else fails: robots!
Its the American way!
or, pay them what the UAW showed they are worth, yeah?
Asking seriously here, is it honestly that they can’t provide affordable EV’s, or that they just don’t feel like it because the margins on expensive cars are better?
I have nothing to back this up, but I feel like it can’t be anything other than the latter.
I mean, anyone could sell at a loss like GM did with the Bolt, but even Tesla can’t sell profitably below the ~$40K Model 3.
A little from Column A, a little from Column B, it is clear that there’s effectively zero interest throughout the industry in producing lower priced cars in general, regardless of energy source
It’s mostly the latter, but there’s a lot going on. R&D on a new gasser is often pretty low, since they’ll use the same engine for a long time in a fair number of vehicles. Also, we have decades of R&D built up over time to draw from. Since EVs have less history and there is a lot of research going into dead ends on things like battery chemistries, the development cost is significantly higher.
In theory, if we settle into something like solid state batteries that can meet needs and can scale up production, those costs will drop significantly. In practice, once we’re used to higher costs, manufacturers will have little reason to reduce them. They might not rise at the same rate as inflation, if we’re lucky.
The new Prius is stunning in person. I love it. I’ve also been saying all along that PHEVs and traditional hybrids are what we should be focusing on right now and the market/manufacturers seem to agree at the moment. I’m not saying we should stop working on BEVs, but I think it’s okay if companies move some resources into standardizing hybrids and plug in hybrids.
The technology is already well sorted and doesn’t require any compromises. Let’s not miss the good trying in pursuit of the perfect…hybrids help reduce emissions and dependence on fossil fuel too.
Toyota really needs to scale up the e-CVT design to heavier duty applications so that the Tacoma, Tundra, Land Cruiser (Prado), etc. can get the massive MPG boosts and durability that come with it.
Everything I’ve heard about the Toyota hybrid drivetrains that use traditional automatic transmissions is that they’re much worse reliability and durability wise, and spec wise alone they get pretty bad MPG relatively.
Durability? I understand they’ve improved in the last couple years but CVTs in general, including Toyotas, are often “sealed for life” and are NOT known for reliability or longevity. Imagine how they would be when towing or offroading. I also question how massive the MPG boost is over a 7+ speed auto.
The E-CVT is famously very reliable. It varies the ratios using planetary gears.
That’s because it’s not a CVT, it’s a hybrid differential drive. It cannot vary the engine’s gear ratio without an electric motor contributing power. Makes sense for a parallel hybrid, but cannot be applied to vehicles that aren’t.
There is a Hybrid Tundra currently, there will a hybrid 2024 Toyota Tacoma, and the Toyota Land Cruiser (Prado) that will be sold in the US will only come with a hybrid drivetrain.
So 3 different hybrids and all 3 could benefit from an e-CVT based drivetrain massively instead of the current a hybrid systems for these vehicles with a turbocharged engine and a traditional automatic transmission with electric motors shoehorned.
You get a couple MPG boost exchange for extra up front cost, extra long term cost (in repairs, replacement, etc.), extra weight, extra complexity, etc. with the current hybrid systems in the above mentioned vehicles.
With an e-CVT for extra up front cost you get a several MPG boost, less complexity, lower long term costs, lower weight, etc.
e-CVT is the way to go for hybrids.
I like the Prius A lot. Would love to get my hands on one actually.
And I have been anti-Toyota forever. But right now, I don’t see a better over-all manufacturer out there offering customers what they actually want.