There’s no rule that says a model has to be updated every five-to-seven years, although that’s been the expectation from certain major automakers like Toyota. A new report suggests that the Japanese automaker might be drifting towards the Nissan end of the spectrum, where models stick around a little bit longer. Is this a big deal? I kind of think it isn’t.
The notion that cars can go longer between overhauls goes against my training as an auto journalist. The internal metronome for most car hacks was set by Harley Earl, which means any vehicle that hasn’t been substantially upgraded in more than a year is somehow Methuselah-spec. The Morning Dump is open-minded and is willing to consider that maybe this is faulty logic.
Is Slate willing to consider using independent shops to work on its cars, possibly saving it money at the expense of keeping customers? Is Ford worried about handing over more data to Amazon, as it allows used cars to be sold on the platform? I’m just asking questions here, folks.
While I’m employing the Socratic method today, why did JPMorgan think it could make Volkswagen’s mobility platform profitable?
Toyota Reportedly Considering Going 10 Years Between Model Upgrades Thanks To Software
I am happy to go ten years between colonoscopies. The census, too, probably only needs to happen every decade. On the other hand, it’s been nine years since the last Rihanna album. That’s far too long, and I don’t know if I can wait another year.
What about cars? The Volkswagen Beetle is essentially the most popular vehicle of all time, and it managed to go decades with only minor ongoing improvements. That’s a far cry from post-war GM, which wanted to significantly tweak its cars every year to boost sales.
Cars are living longer and longer, so maybe it doesn’t make a ton of sense to massively change them every five, six, or seven years? That’s the thinking at Toyota, at least according to Nikkei Asia, which points out that Toyotas are so in demand that spreading out models might make sense:
Toyota is experiencing a high volume of orders, resulting in extended delivery times and order suspensions. Its Land Cruiser SUV takes years from order to delivery — and by the time the vehicle is delivered, the next iteration may already be out. A longer sales cycle will increase opportunities to purchase popular models and also increases the likelihood of selling them used at higher prices, as their value is less likely to depreciate.
With the longer sales cycle, Toyota will review wholesale prices it sets for dealerships. These prices are often gradually reduced as time passes after a model’s release. Going forward, wholesale prices will be set more flexibly, depending on the model and the sales situation.
This is an interesting article because it has basically no quotes, but Nikkei Asia is usually well-connected, so presumably there’s some kind of sourcing here. As the article points out, one of the issues with this strategy is that dealers make money on the gap between wholesale and retail prices, but prices fall relative to how old its models are. In order to address this, Toyota will allegedly be more flexible with wholesale pricing. But what about customers? For them, Toyota is looking to keep its software updated.
You’ve also probably seen this with Tesla. The automaker does small updates, but it doesn’t exactly completely overhaul cars often (arguably, the Model S is 13 years old). What it does do is upgrade the software on vehicles as much as possible to keep rolling out features, therefore keeping vehicles feeling more up-to-date.
There’s such high demand for Toyota products that it can probably afford to do this and not risk losing much market share. Also, this might mean that we can keep vehicles like the 86 around longer.
There Are Potential Downsides In Slate’s Service Plan
I am still quite curious about the Slack electric truck, as are at least 100,000 other people. It has a novel approach to building the car, which is how it keeps the cost potentially low. Another way it’s keeping costs low is by not having any dealers or any service centers, instead using local garages via the RepairPal recommendation platform.
Cost savings and flexibility are the upsides, but as Automotive News reports, there are some downsides:
“Price is one of the big draws of Slate, and the independent repair shop approach may help keep servicing and repair costs in check,” said Ed Kim, chief analyst at AutoPacific. “But many of today’s new-vehicle customers may find this approach doesn’t meet their loftier expectations.”
Most new-car buyers consider franchised dealerships an extension of the brand, offering expert EV repairs and a tightly managed service experience. “At an independent repair shop, this may be much more difficult to implement,” Kim said.
Alternatively, customers of Teslas and other newer EV companies complain of extended wait times from company-backed service centers, so perhaps this can help with the bottlenecks that come with a dealerless, DTC model.
Ford Joins Hyundai In Selling Certified Used Cars On Amazon
So far, Hyundai’s experience with ‘selling new cars’ via Amazon has been so slow it’s been hard to tell if it’s actually working yet. Ford is going with a slightly different approach, starting out with certified pre-owned used cars.
Again, it’s mostly just browsing cars, not necessarily buying them.
The Amazon Autos storefront at www.amazon.com/amazon-autos will connect customers with participating Ford dealers across the country.
Ford said customers can browse a participating Ford dealer’s Ford Blue Advantage certified pre-owned inventory within a 75-mile radius of their home. They can search certified pre-owned vehicles by make, model, year and color.
Each listing will include the price, vehicle history, and specifications, allowing customers to comparison shop from their computer or smart phone.
Once a customer decides on a used vehicle, they may be eligible to secure financing, start paperwork, and schedule a pickup time at their participating local Ford dealer.
Neat, I guess.
JPMorgan Shuts Down The Payment System It Bought From Volkswagen
Do you remember “VW Pay”? This was Volkswagen’s attempt to get into the mobility and financial services game with a unified system that let you pay for fuel, parking, and other car-related things electronically. Back in 2017, before Apple Pay, I suppose this made some sort of sense.
Back in 2021, JPMorgan bought a majority share in the platform and, well, it ain’t gonna work out, with Bloomberg reporting that the bank is shutting down the service. Why?
JPMorgan Chase & Co. is winding down the payments platform it acquired from Volkswagen AG just four years ago, after executives determined they would not be able to turn a profit on the platform.
Like the third owner of a Volkswagen Phaeton, sometimes you just have to learn when to cut bait and move on with your life before you lose any more money.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
There’s a lot of uncertainty in the universe, so let’s embrace it. Here’s Jimi Hendrix with “Castles in the Sand.”
The Big Question
What are some cars that should have gone longer between updates? What stayed around too long?
Top photo: Lord of the Rings/Toyota
Fun top graphic! Although I don’t know how that beard would work out at freeway speeds.
Toyota, taken as a whole, is a smart company. I don’t currently own one. But if you build a solid product than can be upgraded with a software/firmware upgrade that will keep people happy, that’s a way to keep customers happy.
I often, well, not that often because I have often used an independent mechanic to do routine maintenance on my car. But sometimes, a local dealership sends me a coupon that makes it a good deal. I know that they are trying to seduce me into
I guess I can see buying a CPO on Amazon. You already know you like the car. Selling new ones? I’m not so sure.
Wait… Is that supposed to suggest that anyone has had a GOOD experience with dealer service? I don’t exactly frequent repair shops, but it’s been my experience that dealerships are the most expensive AND worst options for anything you’re not absolutely REQUIRED to go to the dealership for… They only miss being the worst option in those instances because the independent shops simply don’t have access to whatever part or software update.
1. I am down with 10 years before a refresh, hell even 50 if it’s perfection incarnate like a Citroen SM. Also, fuck software. I already have a phone, laptop and AI-enabled fridge, thank you
2. We’re going the wrong way with Amazon. They are big enough already, can we not?
3. “So, JPMorgan buys a VW payment system in 2021…” If this ain’t the start of a joke I don’t know what is.
I have a 2018 Golf Sportwagon. Everything about it has proven to be right for my needs and use case, including size and form factor. It’s even pretty fun to drive. When the time comes, I assume 5 years from now based on my care routine* I would buy the exact same car happily. No need for a restyle or any new gimmicks. But, yeah, am I the target market when I only buy a new car very 10 years or so?
Sadly, its no longer available now and won’t be then. Maybe if they offered a real comparable product I might be enticed, but I’m not impressed with anything on offer, despite their current products being “new and improved” (cough bloated CUVs).
*barring stupid disaster.
My brother in law’s new RAV4 doesn’t seem much different than his mom’s 10 year old one… they’re both fine. Boring, but fine.
“What are some cars that should have gone longer between updates?”
The 1969 Dodge Charger was perfection and should have remained unchanged until at least 1972… after which the bumpers would have had to be changed.
“What stayed around too long?”
The Saturn S-series. Was competitive when it came out in 1990.
But by the end of the 1990s, they were out of date and only got 2 styling updates. No major updates to the powertrain or interior from the start of production to the end of production in 2002.
They could have made it more competitive by simply making the 16V DOHC engine standard across the range and doing some other tweaks like making more things standard in the base model.
10 year refresh cycle? I don’t see the issue. I submit to you: Wrangler, Chrysler 200, Dodge Charger and Challenger as examples.
If any manufacturer can stretch a platform longer without taking a hit it’s Toyota. Also a clever way to increase profits on ICE/hybrids and free up engineering resources for some EV work.
Platform age has been a point of discussion forever. Recently the 370Z was talked about for how “ancient” it was. I don’t have a problem with it as a concept, I just get annoyed it doesn’t make the vehicle cheaper. Or at least not enough.
I feel like this is as much an admission that nothing particularly worthwhile has happened in car design for the past ten years as anything else. Most of the features being pushed now are heavily software-based. The actual hardware hasn’t improved substantially for quite a while now (in fact it may have gotten worse as everyone cost-cuts to the bone).
Which is all to say I guess I’m fine with this? Toyota doesn’t make anything I’d be willing to pay their inflated prices for at the moment anyway (I don’t fit in their cars/crossovers and I don’t like the powertrains on their trucks).
Nailed it right there. Nothing excites me these days with angled angry faces. The vehicles are all software controlled and fussy with crappy and laggy screen interfaces. I also suspect as you mentioned that the hardware has been cost cut to the point where reliability may suffer.
The only Toyotas that excite me are first generation Tacomas. Which in the northeast, are now reduced to piles of rust.
Having gotten my new EV from a Hyundai dealership, I do not understand these concepts you call “expert EV repairs” and “tightly managed service experience.”
Eh, I already thought Toyota was going 10 years between updates, at least on the Lexus end. I guess it was closer to 7-8 years on the RX (our 2022 looks basically the same as a 2015), but it sure felt like 10. Once you pass the 7 year mark, I’m not sure how many people really notice if you go 10 with the same basic exterior/interior style. I can see an issue with customer technology expectations, i.e., digital instrument clusters and infotainment screens. I’ve also come to expect Toyota cars to be a few years behind market leaders in display and infotainment tech anyway. Will the target audiences really notice and care about those things? I feel like I’m 20 years older than I am every time I step in that car.
My ’14 Camry shares the same essential body structure with an ’02 model. They refined this same structure, updating powertrains and with 2-3 full subsequent refreshes of interior and body styling. We are at a state of maturity where I feel this is acceptable.
Corolla did the same, the current model still may run on the old ’01 unibody structure.
Should’ve gone longer: the 2018-2022 Honda Accord and 2018-2024 BMW X3. For the Accord, I’m not sure exactly what the 2023 redesign improved (it looks slightly uglier but otherwise seems the same, and the 2.0T/manual’s death is unfortunate). For the BMW, the new X3 is ugly and the new interior is garbage. At least it’s great to drive by most accounts, and the B58 can still be bought.
Stayed around too long: Acura ILX. I’ll never understand why they didn’t redesign it when they did the 10th-generation Civic.
I’m “quite curious about the Slack electric truck” too!
BREAKING NEWS: work chat software-maker Slack is going to make a truck!
Talk about software-defined vehicles.
Its not like Toyota is new to vehicles going a long time without real updates:
Land Cruiser/LX570
Lexus IS
2005 to 2015 Tacoma
1875 to 2024 4Runner
149 years is a LONG time, indeed!
Why are we talking about Slate as if they are a real company that is actually going to build vehicles?
because they will, man
Of course they will. Just like Aptera, Bright, Canoo, Detroit Electric, Elio, Fisker, Faraday, Lordstown ……
However, the Slate will be cheap enough to buy two new ones and keep one for parts. Though those Fiskers got pretty cheap at the end. In a few years, parts will be unobtanium.
Rivian and Lucid can’t make money selling $60k – $100k car but somehow Slate is going to be a successful car company selling a US built $27,500 truck. The business plan is laughable.
It was a business plan built on harvesting credits. Production credits, battery credits, ZEV credits, and CAFE credits. Those credits are gone along with the $7,500 tax credit that was going to get the selling price down to $2Ok.
Nobody is going to pay $30k or more for a 150 mile 2 door electric truck with crank windows and no radio.
Since everything is $30k, I would consider it. I like a crank window.
So in 2027:
Chevy has the Bolt for $30K
Nissan has the Leaf for $30K
Ford has the Maverick EV for $30K
Mitsubishi has the Lancer EV for $30K
Kia has the EV3 for $30K
Are you seriously buying a Slate for $30K?
I mean maybe, you only listed one other truck, and Maverick MSRP has never matched actual Maverick prices. Honestly, I’m not likely to buy any of those. I don’t particularly want an EV, but a bare bones truck for city runaround duty is more interesting to me than any of the other options listed above.
Lol bub
Fisker did build some vehicles… twice.
Aptera is also trying to be a thing after already failing once…
…. and went bankrupt … twice. Leaving the handful of people with orphaned cars.
However, Fisker is one of the more successful recently failed auto startups.
End the anti-slate propaganda. This is a simple truck, that some of us have been clamoring for, for years.
I don’t trust my local Toyota dealers, and stopped bringing my trucks there years ago after repeated issues and over-charging. I have a great local mechanic now that can fix the simple as fuck slate truck, if I even need to bring it there since I can do almost everything myself on it. Which is why people want one!
Fuck the dealer $250+ per hour labor rates. What an insane argument against this brand.
Yeah, people interested in a bottom of the market truck don’t give a damn about service experience, or dealership engagement, or whatever boutique nonsense they are shouting about.
I’ve had work done on my namesake vehicle at the dealership. I wouldn’t resent the hourly labor rate so much if a majority of the amount charged landed in the tech’s pocket.
Using the Currywurst picture is just mean for us staters lmao
Joking, of course!
For TBQ, I honestly think the Pacifica. The original version of the minivan used the 2nd generation 200’s styling and is an underrated design. The first update ruined the looks, honestly. Plus, only thing it added was AWD to the gassers, which was available on 1,500 or so of the pre-facelifts. If it added more, maybe it’d be worth it, but it really should’ve kept it’s styling while they put the money into doing another new generation on STLA Large, which the next van will use anyways. Debuting a RWD-based car for Dodge in the new Charger and a FWD-based minivan for Chrysler would’ve been a great debut for the platform, since it’s multi-energy and all that.
I suspect Toyota will update their Bev vehicles more and call them all new when it’s a new battery and power electronics maybe motor
and few style changes. The hybrid and ice will go slower because they don’t want to change their powertrains as much after what happened with the v6.
Refreshes stand out as being problematic and worse. The gen 3 ram refresh was a terrible thing the so called gen 2 super duty terrible things that should have just left alone until the next gen.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think Slate buyers are going to be the same people who expect high level of care at a dealership repair facility. I don’t think that will hurt them in their market. People ok with crank windows are not who I would expect to be fussy about the waiting room. Long as the warranty and repair work are acceptable, I don’t think it will be a major concern.
I was thinking more or less the same thing reading the article, most people who want a bare bones vehicle probably hate going to a dealership, and would prefer to use an independent shop anyway. I’m certainly one of those people, avoiding dealerships at all levels is a bonus, not a detriment. Best case is that the Slate is so simple that it just works, and other than accidents will need almost no trips to anything other than a tire shop anyway. And if work is needed, the simplicity could mean most semi mechanically inclined people will be able to do the work themselves anyway.
These Slate trucks are going to be so cheap, if one breaks down you might as well just leave it beside the road and go get a new one. Slate: crunch all you want, we’ll make more.
I’m unclear on what is breaking on these things or in need of regular maintenance anyway. Isn’t that part of the appeal of an EV?
I say get it right and leave the damned things alone. There are a huge number of cars I wish I could still buy brand-new today because what has replaced them suck like the vacuum of space.
The only cars that stick around too long are the ones that weren’t much good in the first place.
The PT Cruiser could’ve gone the whole 10 years without an update, the mid-cycle refresh made it worse for seating, repairability, styling.
On the Slate, if it’s like a Pep Boys I feel like they have the infrastructure and setup to be ok, if it’s like a Meineke maybe not so much. As a fer instance, our Prologue had an A/C valve that needed replacement at 3500 miles, manufacturer had a TSB on it, it’s a part replacement and I think the end has to be reamed out, that’s something I could see a Pep Boys handling ok, but maybe not some other smaller muffler/brake/A/C shops.
Also there’s the parts question, Dealers can keep common parts on hand, most small service shops don’t have the room, will all warranty work then require at least 1 day in the shop as parts are overnighted?
Definitely some logistics to work out but if they pull it off, and you have multiple options in your area it could work out, compared to like Rivian where people are constantly having their trucks trailered to the nearest service center in the next state.
Good call, there was nothing about the PT’s 2006 update that made it a better car in any way.
Considering daddy Bezbo’s involvement, there’s a greater than zero chance they could tap in to Amazon logistics for parts. There’s been a lot of downplay of his actual involvement beyond funding but c’mon. Isn’t vertical integration what all barons strive for?
That reminds me, the North American 2005 Focus update actually made the car seem more dated. The interior went from feeling like the late ‘90s to feeling like the mid ‘90s.
Easy solution to the parts stocking issue is to have someone like Napa or Oreiley’s do the stocking for you. It’s most likely where the shop gets parts from anyways. It would be a little more expensive at first as you’d need to make enough spare parts for there to be inventory readily available, but then after that initial outlay you just replace what ends up selling often.
For at least 10 years, US buyers have settled on the crossover/CUV/SUV format as the default passenger vehicle. Same sausage, different lengths and all that. I’d venture that 65-70% of all new passenger vehicles sold fit into those categories.
We’re also in an era where vehicles are so good, and also so expensive, that keeping your vehicle for 10+ years is a sound idea.
The only “upgrade” I think manufacturers should make is designing “infotainment” systems with easily upgradeable software/firmware AND hardware modules. Lots of cars still on the road have deceased 3G connectivity, for example, and that could have been accounted for from Day 1.
My 2017 CX-5 wasn’t available from factory with AA/CP, but with a firmware and hardware upgrade, it can be installed using Genuine Mazda accessories. Every car should have such things.