There’s no rule that says a model has to be updated every five-to-seven years, although that’s been the expectation from certain major automakers like Toyota. A new report suggests that the Japanese automaker might be drifting towards the Nissan end of the spectrum, where models stick around a little bit longer. Is this a big deal? I kind of think it isn’t.
The notion that cars can go longer between overhauls goes against my training as an auto journalist. The internal metronome for most car hacks was set by Harley Earl, which means any vehicle that hasn’t been substantially upgraded in more than a year is somehow Methuselah-spec. The Morning Dump is open-minded and is willing to consider that maybe this is faulty logic.
Is Slate willing to consider using independent shops to work on its cars, possibly saving it money at the expense of keeping customers? Is Ford worried about handing over more data to Amazon, as it allows used cars to be sold on the platform? I’m just asking questions here, folks.
While I’m employing the Socratic method today, why did JPMorgan think it could make Volkswagen’s mobility platform profitable?
Toyota Reportedly Considering Going 10 Years Between Model Upgrades Thanks To Software
I am happy to go ten years between colonoscopies. The census, too, probably only needs to happen every decade. On the other hand, it’s been nine years since the last Rihanna album. That’s far too long, and I don’t know if I can wait another year.
What about cars? The Volkswagen Beetle is essentially the most popular vehicle of all time, and it managed to go decades with only minor ongoing improvements. That’s a far cry from post-war GM, which wanted to significantly tweak its cars every year to boost sales.
Cars are living longer and longer, so maybe it doesn’t make a ton of sense to massively change them every five, six, or seven years? That’s the thinking at Toyota, at least according to Nikkei Asia, which points out that Toyotas are so in demand that spreading out models might make sense:
Toyota is experiencing a high volume of orders, resulting in extended delivery times and order suspensions. Its Land Cruiser SUV takes years from order to delivery — and by the time the vehicle is delivered, the next iteration may already be out. A longer sales cycle will increase opportunities to purchase popular models and also increases the likelihood of selling them used at higher prices, as their value is less likely to depreciate.
With the longer sales cycle, Toyota will review wholesale prices it sets for dealerships. These prices are often gradually reduced as time passes after a model’s release. Going forward, wholesale prices will be set more flexibly, depending on the model and the sales situation.
This is an interesting article because it has basically no quotes, but Nikkei Asia is usually well-connected, so presumably there’s some kind of sourcing here. As the article points out, one of the issues with this strategy is that dealers make money on the gap between wholesale and retail prices, but prices fall relative to how old its models are. In order to address this, Toyota will allegedly be more flexible with wholesale pricing. But what about customers? For them, Toyota is looking to keep its software updated.
You’ve also probably seen this with Tesla. The automaker does small updates, but it doesn’t exactly completely overhaul cars often (arguably, the Model S is 13 years old). What it does do is upgrade the software on vehicles as much as possible to keep rolling out features, therefore keeping vehicles feeling more up-to-date.
There’s such high demand for Toyota products that it can probably afford to do this and not risk losing much market share. Also, this might mean that we can keep vehicles like the 86 around longer.
There Are Potential Downsides In Slate’s Service Plan
I am still quite curious about the Slack electric truck, as are at least 100,000 other people. It has a novel approach to building the car, which is how it keeps the cost potentially low. Another way it’s keeping costs low is by not having any dealers or any service centers, instead using local garages via the RepairPal recommendation platform.
Cost savings and flexibility are the upsides, but as Automotive News reports, there are some downsides:
“Price is one of the big draws of Slate, and the independent repair shop approach may help keep servicing and repair costs in check,” said Ed Kim, chief analyst at AutoPacific. “But many of today’s new-vehicle customers may find this approach doesn’t meet their loftier expectations.”
Most new-car buyers consider franchised dealerships an extension of the brand, offering expert EV repairs and a tightly managed service experience. “At an independent repair shop, this may be much more difficult to implement,” Kim said.
Alternatively, customers of Teslas and other newer EV companies complain of extended wait times from company-backed service centers, so perhaps this can help with the bottlenecks that come with a dealerless, DTC model.
Ford Joins Hyundai In Selling Certified Used Cars On Amazon
So far, Hyundai’s experience with ‘selling new cars’ via Amazon has been so slow it’s been hard to tell if it’s actually working yet. Ford is going with a slightly different approach, starting out with certified pre-owned used cars.
Again, it’s mostly just browsing cars, not necessarily buying them.
The Amazon Autos storefront at www.amazon.com/amazon-autos will connect customers with participating Ford dealers across the country.
Ford said customers can browse a participating Ford dealer’s Ford Blue Advantage certified pre-owned inventory within a 75-mile radius of their home. They can search certified pre-owned vehicles by make, model, year and color.
Each listing will include the price, vehicle history, and specifications, allowing customers to comparison shop from their computer or smart phone.
Once a customer decides on a used vehicle, they may be eligible to secure financing, start paperwork, and schedule a pickup time at their participating local Ford dealer.
Neat, I guess.
JPMorgan Shuts Down The Payment System It Bought From Volkswagen
Do you remember “VW Pay”? This was Volkswagen’s attempt to get into the mobility and financial services game with a unified system that let you pay for fuel, parking, and other car-related things electronically. Back in 2017, before Apple Pay, I suppose this made some sort of sense.
Back in 2021, JPMorgan bought a majority share in the platform and, well, it ain’t gonna work out, with Bloomberg reporting that the bank is shutting down the service. Why?
JPMorgan Chase & Co. is winding down the payments platform it acquired from Volkswagen AG just four years ago, after executives determined they would not be able to turn a profit on the platform.
Like the third owner of a Volkswagen Phaeton, sometimes you just have to learn when to cut bait and move on with your life before you lose any more money.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
There’s a lot of uncertainty in the universe, so let’s embrace it. Here’s Jimi Hendrix with “Castles in the Sand.”
The Big Question
What are some cars that should have gone longer between updates? What stayed around too long?
Top photo: Lord of the Rings/Toyota
For at least 10 years, US buyers have settled on the crossover/CUV/SUV format as the default passenger vehicle. Same sausage, different lengths and all that. I’d venture that 65-70% of all new passenger vehicles sold fit into those categories.
We’re also in an era where vehicles are so good, and also so expensive, that keeping your vehicle for 10+ years is a sound idea.
The only “upgrade” I think manufacturers should make is designing “infotainment” systems with easily upgradeable software/firmware AND hardware modules. Lots of cars still on the road have deceased 3G connectivity, for example, and that could have been accounted for from Day 1.
My 2017 CX-5 wasn’t available from factory with AA/CP, but with a firmware and hardware upgrade, it can be installed using Genuine Mazda accessories. Every car should have such things.
Toyota better keep on top of their refreshes if they want to go that long between redesigns. Most people don’t want to buy the same vehicle twice which is why we had the only refresh at 3 years / redesign at 5-6 year model cycle. The most common lease is 3 years and 70% of people that actually buy a new car keep them for 5 years or less.
So maybe we get a refresh every 3 years?
The current gen Toyota Corolla is pretty long in the tooth. It is quite unrefined compared to the current competition. On the flipside, I cannot think of any car that should have gone longer before an update. Maybe the Mk7 Golf, but that was around for roughly 9 years. The only reason it comes to mind is because of how disappointing the Mk8 is, not because it wasn’t due for an update.
I’m all for vehicles lasting longer. Better parts availability, more sustainable, more collective knowledge of issues.
And hopefully, for less popular models, less ongoing cost to just keep making the same thing in smaller numbers since the tooling is paid off. (Yes, I am bitter about discontinued Lexus cruisers that I could never afford anyway.)
The Canadian market Nissan Micra was gone too soon.
They’re great little commuters that are durable, economical, and CHEAP. I see them buzzing around my city all the time.
I’m also sad that the Hyundai Genesis Coupe died out after only running 2010-2016.
Pickup trucks. If they went longer, maybe Toyota wouldn’t have had the sand in the engine block problem. Same with Jeep.
I mean, the last generation Tundra ran production for 15 years. How much longer did you want them to go?
That sure sounds like a frozen Tundra.
I’m probably off base with this, but my thought is by now they’ve pretty much got the mechanics of designing and building a car down to a science. There has been considerable improvement in powertrains (to say nothing of the migration to electric), but the shells themselves seem to be pretty mature.
Styling is, of course another matter entirely, but my impression is the platforms are mature enough that keeping them around for longer than four or five years makes a lot of sense. With tweaks to the plastic bits on the nose & tail and new color options along the way, it seems like it ought to be possible to keep a particular vehicle relevant for longer than the current cycle lengths.
I guess I’m kinda with Toyota on this one.
They do talk about software. With everything migrating into screens automakers can make vehicle interiors updated without really changing many physical part.
Change the HMI, update the processing speed, tack a different size and shaped screen on the dash…
I would love a year-9 Toyota model.
It would be the poster child of continuous efficiency.
The Slate plan could work if they design it to be serviced easy. It might even work out in their favor if they are also the supplier of the parts. I would stick to modular easy to access parts to make repairs easy, You might also find other businesses that could recondition parts cheap local. It is a full Electric car, maybe make some of the modules serviceable by computer or electronic repair places. In theory, You shouldn’t have more complexity with the Slate but less.
Longer gen from Toyota? That seems fine with me, most people I know with a Toyota have kept it longer than 10 years anyway. Maybe their data is showing them that they don’t need updates as often to keep people buying. I personally have 2 toyotas that are well past 10 years old as daily drivers for me and my wife. Toyota doesn’t even sell a car we would want anymore even if we went in to trade up for new. I went and looked last summer and didn’t spend even 10 minutes at the dealer before I was told I couldn’t have what I wanted because, “no one would ever want that, no company has ever even sold a car like that” as I got in that car from that company and drove away.
I’m going to die of a heart attack of not surprise.
People only have so much appetite to update their NPC mobile. Also, after long enough… they learn replacing Car X with slightly newer version of Car X wasn’t really worth the cost. Especially when current Car X is… really good. Even economy cars.
Add in how much more a new car costs relative to disposable income… no surprise.
Moreover, Toyotas as durable as fuck. It’s just not hard to get 20-30 years out of those cars if you really take care of them. Much longer if you want to. Things like seat foam, seat fabrics, rubber seals and such are the real things to worry about. Obviously corrosion needs more work to prevent in some environments. Though if you work to take care of the car, boy does the car take care of you.
Dodge Magnum shouldn’t have been dropped to make room for the Challenger. There was capacity to build all the LX cars in parallel.
Frankly, I wish they were still building and selling the old Challenger/Charger/300. The Challenger sold 60k units a year like a metronome for more than a decade, including in the same years when Camaro and Mustang sales tanked. The sedan sold at 90k/year volumes, and even the spendy Durango also did 60k/year on the same platform*.
The sales equation was simple: offer a V8 for ~$30k, and a V6 for cheaper than that, in a stylish, comfortable, usable car that also happened to be fun to drive.
Autojourno whinging about age notwithstanding, there was nothing wrong with that platform, and unless the tooling was flat out worn out, I don’t see that they had anything to gain from making a new one, especially a way too expensive new one missing any compelling powertrain at all. They should have kept pumping the things out on 100% depreciated tools printing money until someone actually competed with them successfully in their market niche.
(*Edit: did some research to back up my claim that the Durango and LX car platform were related, and they weren’t as close as I seemed to recall. WD – Durango, Grand Cherokee, and LD – facelifted LX cars were developed around the same time and use similar drivetrain components, but evidently are different enough that they can’t reasonably called platform-mates. Apologies for the error.)
It would have also been the last non-SUV police-trim vehicle left standing. I’m sure the police fleets would have loved the idea of having a never-ending train of vehicles using common spares.
“Like the third owner of a Volkswagen Phaeton.”
That feels personal.
Mercedes out here catching strays.
GM let the first gen Cruze go too long. They had the second gen ready to go and then sat on it for a year. In that time Honda introduced the Gundam Civic and made the second gen Cruze look like a cheap copy. That killed the buzz really quickly.
I sort of doubt these longer cycles will actually happen. Depending on how you look at it anyway.
Toyota already has a tendency to stretch out architecture and powertrains for long, long periods of time. So yeah, we might not be seeing substantial edits, look at the most recent Rav4 and Camry designs. But we’re still going to see these heavy refreshes being sold as “all-new” designs, because new designs are half of what drives people to buy new cars to begin with. Good luck selling someone a brand new Toyota for big bucks 7 years after buying their last, only to show up to the dealer to find that it’s the EXACT same car that they already own.
I know that this is The Autopian, and a number of people here would probably LOVE this, but we’re talking about non-miserly-non-enthusiasts here. Most buying something new for 45k, want it to at least appear to be new.
What are some cars that should have gone longer between updates? What stayed around too long?
Gonna sound a little boomer-ish with this one, but darn near every car during the peak muscle car age. (Using the narrow definition starting in 1964 with the GTO and ending at the end of 1972 with oil embargos and government bumpers)
All of the most iconic muscle car designs were pretty fleeting if you think about it. The Chevelle cosmetically changed a bunch every year except 71-72. Same for the rest of the A-bodies. Sure, the silhouettes looked the same, but GM was way too ADHD in the 60’s to keep the same nose and tail on any car and it’s a bit of a shame as some of those specific years were near perfection design-wise. (To me at least).
I think up until now there have been a lot of laws to make cars safer and less of a pain to insure that have impacted design way more significantly and now the dust has mostly settled.
They’re cooked, chat.
Assuming they supply training and have an ecosystem for any specialized tools and parts, it could work.
Hell, it’s not really different than how it works on the heavy equipment side. OEM engine/trans/driveline suppliers have training for techs to become “certified”. We’re a fleet and we do our own warranty work cause we’re trained on the product.
There’s still brand service centers around, but they’re few and far between.
Training is easy money and insulates you from higher costs.
What are some cars that should have gone longer between updates?
The Chevy Express. If N is the number of years the current generation lasts on the market, and M is the number of years it should have stayed on the market, N < M for all possible values of N.
People often meet expectations. If local repair shops are held to some decent expectations of service and behavior then the Slate plan may work out just fine. If people are sent to crappy local shops and get rude expensive treatment then it will not work out.
The Jeep CJ and Wrangler has usually(??) gone 10+ years between big changes and about 5 with minor changes.
I am all for slowing the changes down to longer intervals for most vehicles as it gives time to fix issues and fewer big price jumps.
The first one that comes to mind is the Super Duty, all the changes they’ve made since the original 2017-19 design have made it uglier. It’s an HD truck, it’s in a very brand loyal segment and the people who buy them really want them (to put up with the compromises over a half ton). Why does it need constant grille changes?
It’s hard for me to criticize cars for this, because an old-school nature, especially in the powertrain, generally appeals to me. My answer is probably the GTR, simply because it was marketed as high-tech at its launch, then fell farther and farther behind, which kind of defeated the whole point of the car vis a vis its competition.
FWIW the cab, and box went through a fairly significant metal overhaul for the P708 gen in 2023, even if from the outside it doesn’t look like much. I personally prefer the 2020 facelift of the P558 though. I helped out the truck shop during the model launch in the plant, I was in body on the Expedition/Navigator Side.
I just wish the ugly plastic bedside steps were an optional delete, although I understand why they aren’t.
They look fine on an XL or XLT, but Platinums and such shouldn’t have that kind of plastic visible IMO.
For Slate it will be interesting. A normal dealership can sell a car at a loss and make it up by servicing that same car for the next few years, I’ve seen that first hand many times when I worked at a Honda dealer in some rougher times, but Slate intentionally losing out on the service aspect I would think would cause prices to be higher in the long term.
Short term it would save them money since they don’t have to build out all the infrastructure and everything, but it still seems short sighted due to that.
Who knows, I just hope I can get one of the things for a good price late next year!
Update every 10 years?? This might be more palatable if cars weren’t so ugly to begin with, and they were offered in 18 different COLORS every year.
Jeep tends to cycle in good colors every few years on the wrangler to keep thinks fresh.
The Nissan Frontier stayed around way too long before it got a meaningful update. I was given a 2018 as a rental several years ago and it felt like driving a 15+ year old truck despite only being 2 years old at most. It wasn’t even a case of “it drives like a truck” because my 3rd gen Tacoma (which was by no means a thoroughly modern vehicle) felt like it was lightyears ahead of the Frontier in every way.
Chevy SS. Wish they still sold that now, I’d still be interested in a new one. Can’t justify new prices for a used one with 100k miles on it.
(I know they couldn’t still be making them, because they closed the plant. We’re dreaming here, okay?)