Home » A Startup Is Launching A Surprisingly Good Electric Motorcycle That Costs Just $1,000

A Startup Is Launching A Surprisingly Good Electric Motorcycle That Costs Just $1,000

Emara 1000 Dollar Motorcycle Ts2
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One of the biggest problems limiting the adoption of electric motorcycles is just the fact that they cost so much for what you get. An electric motorcycle with range even somewhat similar to your gasoline bike can run you $15,000 or more in America. Even harder is getting poorer nations into EVs, and one company is producing some of the cheapest, most practical motorcycles I’ve seen yet. This is the Zeno Emara, a new electric motorcycle promising up to 62 miles of real-world range. Depending on where you live, you can score one of these for the equivalent of just $1,000.

Electric motorcycles have simultaneously been one of the best and most disappointing EV developments in recent years. Today’s ‘lectro bikes make mountains of torque and produce infinite wheelies with just the twist of the throttle. They’re also whisper quiet, which might not even be something you thought you wanted in a motorcycle until you experience it for yourself. Electric motorcycles even handle beautifully.

Vidframe Min Top
Vidframe Min Bottom

But then you start digging into the details, and these bikes start looking a whole lot less attractive. Electric motorcycles in the mid-teens for pricing still go fewer than 100 miles on a charge. If you spend $20,000 or over, you can go over 100 miles, but only if you take slow roads. Some of these very expensive machines can’t even benefit from fast-charging technology, so you’re stuck topping up for hours.

Persona 2x
Zeno

Truth be told, there’s nothing wrong with the range. The problem is how much you’re paying to go so few miles. Yet, if you look outside of the United States or Europe, there’s a whole world of possibilities out there. The Zeno Emara doesn’t go very fast or very far, but it doesn’t cost much money, either, so it all makes sense! Then there’s the weird part: This bike’s origin story involves Tesla.

From Model Ys To Motorcycles

Zeno was founded in 2022 by Tesla alum Michael Spencer. He built a team including former Apple TV engineer Rob Newberry, former Lucid powertrain engineer Swaroop Bhushan, and other engineers from the likes of Gogoro and Tesla. Spencer’s vision for Zeno is to do for emerging markets what Tesla did for EVs in America.

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Zenotaxibike
Zeno

As TechCrunch notes, bodaboda, or motorcycle taxis, are a huge deal in East Africa. Riding on a motorcycle taxi helps commuters cut through dense urban traffic and get to their destinations for less than riding in a car-based taxi. Of course, this is also cheaper than owning a car, too. Sadly, the motorcycle taxi riders get the short end of the stick as they end up spending around 50 percent of their income on fuel alone.

The team at Zeno sought to solve this issue and more. If motorcycle taxi owners could spend less on fuel, they could keep more of their pay.

Now, Zeno could have just done what a lot of startups in America and Europe do and just slapped a battery and an electric motor into a motorcycle frame. However, there’s a huge limitation there. Once you drain that battery, such as when you’re working as a delivery driver or taxi driver, you have to park and wait for the battery to recharge, which means losing income.

Gogoro Swap Girl L
Gogoro

The solution for this has largely come from the likes of Taiwan’s Gogoro (above), which has pioneered a battery swapping system. If you’re riding a Gogoro-branded scooter and run out of juice, you just ride to a station, pull out your depleted battery, and drop in a charged battery. Boom, you get back on the road in an even shorter time than it would take to fill a gas tank.

Zeno had operated silently for the first couple of years of its existence. As TechCrunch notes, Zeno tested over a few dozen electric Chinese bikes in Kenya and found out that they just weren’t tough enough for the environment. Locals were also disappointed that they had these battery-powered motorcycles, but the batteries couldn’t be taken out and used as a power station. So, Zeno decided to take a different path.

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Startups in Africa have embraced battery-swapping technology. Back in 2022, I wrote about the Roam Air, an electric motorcycle with 56 miles of range and easily swappable batteries for just $1,500. Well, Roam isn’t alone. Joining in on this African EV moto revolution are Ampersand Solar, Arc Ride, Spiro, Zembo, and now, Zeno.

The Emara

La Moto Electrica De 1.000 Euros
Zeno

Zeno is targeting markets in Africa and India with an ambitious goal. Not only are Zeno’s motorcycles supposed to get up to 60 miles of range, but Zeno says that they’ll cost less than a comparable gasoline motorcycle. There’s an asterisk to that, which we’ll get to in a bit.

Zeno says that the Emara is supposed to be like the equivalent of a 150cc gasoline motorcycle, but it’s designed to do almost everything better. It’s designed to carry 551 pounds, climb a 30-degree slope, have a top speed of 56 mph, and have a motor that punches out 10.7 HP. Now, some of those are impressive.

Footer Bg.49caaaf5
Zeno

A common 150cc motorbike might have a weight limit of 350 pounds or above 400 pounds, depending on the model, so the Emara sounds pretty rugged in that regard. That said, the Emara comes a few ponies and some mph shy of the capabilities of a good 150cc gasoline motorcycle, but it’s not far off.

The real magic is what’s underneath. The Zeno Emara is powered by at least one 2 kWh lithium-iron-phosphate (LFP) battery, and there’s a slot on the bike to carry a second. This is supposed to be good for up to 60 miles of real-world range. These batteries are removable, which allows them to be brought inside and charged at home. Or, you can take the batteries out and use them for emergency power or as a campsite power station.

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Persona 1 X
Zeno

Zeno also took a look at all of the other electric motorcycle projects going on in Africa and took note that a lot of them look like high school shop class projects. Because of this, Zeno decided to do extra work to create a more finished product. Basically, the idea is that part of the reason you’d buy an Emara is because you think it looks cool, not just because it can save you money.

Even the marketing tries to be hip and cool. I mean, check this out:

Zenoseatx
Zeno

The bike even has four riding modes, a color LCD display, LED lighting, and disc brakes on both ends. Sure, there are no fancy radars or anything like that here, but there’s some pretty modern tech at play here. This sounds like something I would be glad to zip around town on.

The last two mechanisms in the Zeno plan are the battery swapping stations and the purchasing scheme. A buyer has three options for their Emara. The ideal customer is someone who buys the motorcycle and then pays a subscription for the battery. In doing this, the initial purchase price is said to be lower than an equivalent gasoline motorcycle. According to Zeno, the subscription is $17 per month for up to 48 kWh of energy or $29 per month for up to 120 kWh of energy.

Zenoswapstation
Zeno

Subscription customers will gain access to Zeno’s network of battery swap stations, where you just ride up to the station, pull out your depleted battery, and then drop in a charged battery. Alternatively, Zeno offers an option that works like a pre-paid phone where you buy a bike without batteries, and then pay by the kWh consumed to use loaned batteries. That option costs 61 cents per kWh consumed, and these customers can also use the swapping stations.

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Finally, if you’re the kind of person who doesn’t want to bother with subscriptions or anything like that, you can just buy the motorcycle and its two batteries outright. That version costs $1,500, depending on the market and currency.

As of now, Zeno is targeting Africa and India with pricing roughly equivalent to $1,000 for the model with the battery subscription. Zeno says it’s selling the first 5,000 battery subscription-based units in India for about $750 before the price goes up to $1,000.

Emara Bg Nnew.33980e78
Zeno

This price is definitely competitive. As of right now, a brand-new, roughly equivalent 150cc motorcycle costs around $1,500 in East Africa. So, technically, if a buyer gets the subscription version of the Emara, they can save a little wad of cash on the initial purchase compared to buying a new gas bike. But what’s also cool is that the full price of an Emara is similar to a 150cc motorcycle.

Zeno says it already has a waitlist that’s thousands of people long, and the list has been getting longer since the order books opened up last week. The company hopes to deliver the Emara later this year, and with luck, it’ll make a dent in the highly competitive low-cost motorcycle markets in Africa and India.

Honestly, the part of this story that gets me is how great these bikes would be for Americans. The Zeno Emara’s spec sheet sounds similar to what you’d get with a Honda Grom or a CFMoto Papio SS, but in all-electric flavor. Even at $3,000, I bet the Emara could find a small market here. There are some American riders out there who are okay with a lower range so long as it comes with a lower price, and this hits that spot. Sadly, like all of the other super cheap electric bikes I’ve written about, this one will remain forbidden fruit.

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Shop-Teacher
Shop-Teacher
3 hours ago

I dig it! Shame they won’t sell me one 🙁

Nvoid82
Nvoid82
7 hours ago

This is a really cool idea, and it seems like the’ve got some solid ideas from a usability perspective. The question is how reliable is their support network on the back end. Can I really trust that I’ll have a battery swap available when needed?

Detroit Lightning
Detroit Lightning
10 hours ago

Seeing “tesla alum” in the intro usually indicates I’m about to read about some serious vaporware.

Michael Oneshed
Michael Oneshed
12 hours ago

I love this motorcycle on a near carnal level

Davey
Davey
16 hours ago

I wanna see the Grand Tour “Feed the World” special where Hammond rides this electric bike, Clarkson in the Slate (or other electric pickup), and May is in another Mercedes wagon. I wanna see the comparison if battery is better for that part of the world.
Glad they are testing in Africa and India, though. Next step come test it in Canada in February.

James Thomas
James Thomas
17 hours ago

Sorry, but I really don’t see the market for these, even at $1,000, in the USA. Think about it.. if you subtract Harleys and sport bikes, how many motorcycles do you see on the road? I subtract those two types because most of those guys would never be happy with one of these. I don’t see them ever buying one of these. That leaves a very small market.

Plus, the swappable batteries might not be all that. How would you feel if you traded in your new battery and got one that was several years old? That said, E-Bikes are great. E-Motorcycles? Not yet. Especially at 352lbs..

Last edited 17 hours ago by James Thomas
Bags
Bags
16 hours ago
Reply to  James Thomas

See, I think that the market is there. I’m seeing more scooters/Vespa type things around, and the popularity of Groms and such is there.
There’s a lot of people that can get around to work/school/shopping with minimal or no highway riding, it’s just too far to ride a bike.
E-bikes have started filling this niche, but a bike like that in the article could provide more capability without much cost.

I understand why EV bike makers started by targeting the more premium market – just like with cars you can better hide the costs and grab some more margin from lower volumes. But I think this is the portion of the market where there could really be an entry point.

SoWontLetMeKeepMyManual
SoWontLetMeKeepMyManual
15 hours ago
Reply to  James Thomas

I’d buy this tomorrow if it were available. I have an 8 mile 0 highway commute on streets far too busy to ride a bike on. This could get me to work 8-9 months out of the year and put a smile on my face while doing it.
A Ryvid Anthem could too… but it is 7x more expensive. (although it looks super cool).

Salaryman
Salaryman
15 hours ago
Reply to  James Thomas

I wouldn’t worry about the old battery, because you would just go and swap it again. Similar to the propane exchange places.

James Thomas
James Thomas
13 hours ago

Well, I’ve never claimed to be smart.. lol.. hopefully I’m wrong about this and they’ll sell like hotcakes! I sure do appreciate all the responses from everyone!

Michael Oneshed
Michael Oneshed
12 hours ago
Reply to  James Thomas

It’s a perfect commuter.

Surprise me……
Surprise me……
18 hours ago

So the only thing they need is a battery standard and then they can license the battery options out to other manufacturers. Then the idea of the prepaid cellphone would be the same any model can use your product.

MrLM002
MrLM002
1 day ago

160kg aka 352lbs for a 150cc equivalent. No thanks.

I love electric stuff, I sincerely doubt I’ll buy another ICE powered vehicle unless it is to convert it to electric power, but that won’t get me to buy an overweight motorcycle.

Pimento
Pimento
1 day ago

Done right, something like this could be the new Honda Cub.

Also, why isn’t this the new Honda Cub. Get on it, Honda.

Cody
Cody
1 day ago

“Sadly, the motorcycle taxi riders get the short end of the stick as they end up spending around 50 percent of their income on fuel alone.”
I think you meant taxi owners

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
1 day ago

“That option costs 61 cents per kWh consumed”

WOOF! And I thought PG&E was pricy!

Last edited 1 day ago by Cheap Bastard
Cars? I've owned a few
Cars? I've owned a few
1 day ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

Electricity rates and charging station pricing is literally all over the map. I don’t know what it costs to generate electricity in Africa or India. Here in Tacoma, we have a public electricity utility and access to a lot of hydro power and it’s about 11 cents per kWh. Depending on the plan, PG&E can be pretty pricey. In SE Texas, Entergy’s pricing was not far above what I pay here, but with summer A/C, we used a lot. We lived in a subdivision that did not allow solar panels on the roof. And I now live in a condo that also currently prohibits them, but it comes up at every annual HOA meeting and they seem to be softening a little bit. It’s along the lines of “when it’s time to redo the roof on the buildings, we’ll consider it. Tesla Supercharger stations reportedly vary from $0.11 to $0.60 per kWh, depending on time of day and location.

Last summer, I bought a Honda ADV160, which will do 70 mph, gets 88 realistic MPG around the hilly terrain around here and is technically freeway legal. Finding a solid GVWR/load capacity rating for it has been elusive, but there is seating and foot pegs for two. Having seating for your ex AND your next could be awkward. And sitting on the front part of that seat to allow both of them to ride and discuss all of your shortcomings while enroute to wherever you’re taking them doesn’t seem like it would be comfortable in any way.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
1 day ago

Looking at the prices of new 150cc motorcycles in India it looks like there are some offerings close to the $1000 price point of this BEV.

https://www.bikewale.com/features/top-5-affordable-150160cc-bikes-in-india-98003/

The claimed MPG of these looks to be 115-125 MPG so I dunno if this BEV makes THAT much sense as a cheap taxi.

Dan Pritts
Dan Pritts
23 hours ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

This is not just electricity cost, it’s battery rental.

still not cheap.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
15 hours ago
Reply to  Dan Pritts

Who knows if that’s the final cost though or if like everywhere else additional costs such as taxes, battery rental fees etc end up being piled on top of that.

Phuzz
Phuzz
18 hours ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

I’m paying 21.72p/kWh in the UK, which works out to 29.3 US cents/kWh.
(There’s also a daily charge of 60p/day)

Bags
Bags
16 hours ago
Reply to  Phuzz

What’s the equivalent of “oof” on that side of the pond?

Lotsofchops
Lotsofchops
14 hours ago
Reply to  Bags

“Well I never!”, with/without “my good chap” at the end.

Urban Runabout
Urban Runabout
17 hours ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

Every time you switch a light on – a shareholder profits.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
15 hours ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

Depends on whether you have solar.

James
James
1 day ago

I really wanted to finish reading this article, but after closing the 5th full screen boost mobile ad I lost interest.

Weston
Weston
1 day ago
Reply to  James

Duck Suck Go is your friend. Zero pop-ups.

Harvey Spork
Harvey Spork
1 day ago

Surprise (full-screen ad), mfer!

Last edited 1 day ago by Harvey Spork
StillNotATony
StillNotATony
1 day ago

I really like this, but I wouldn’t buy one. Because for a little over $1000 more, I bought a low miles Honda gas motorcycle with double the range, at least double the top speed, refills in 2 minutes, and can be driven on the highway.

Harvey Spork
Harvey Spork
1 day ago
Reply to  StillNotATony

I just moved to a more urban environment and I have the urge to ride a moped, scooter, or smol motorcycle again. What model are you referring to?

StillNotATony
StillNotATony
1 day ago
Reply to  Harvey Spork

1994 Honda Magna 750

Cars? I've owned a few
Cars? I've owned a few
1 day ago
Reply to  Harvey Spork

I bought a ’24 ADV 160 scooter. In retrospect, I should’ve gone on Craigs List of FB market and bought a used one. I love the Honda. It’s well-engineered but I could’ve gotten the utility for maybe 25% of what I paid. It will be a nice hand-me-down for my niece when I feel too old to ride.

Boulevard_Yachtsman
Boulevard_Yachtsman
1 day ago

I’ve haven’t had a write-up on small vehicles make me this hungry for pizza since Chevy and Dominos collaborated on those Spark-based delivery-cars.
https://www.zenosrestaurant.com/ourstory

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
1 day ago

There has been no development in electric motorcycles that has been even slightly interesting. For less than $2000 in the U.S., you can get an e-bike with more range that lets you pedal it if the battery runs out. And there isn’t any subscription. Most importantly, the battery size is a tiny fraction of that of this motorcycle, meaning it costs a fraction to charge or can be done via a small solar setup.

BEV motorcycles are completely pointless products until battery tech makes a massive leap forward.

Eggsalad
Eggsalad
1 day ago

I’ll agree with you, for the most part. The e-bike you describe would cover a lot of folks’ needs… in the US. Maybe that’s why they won’t sell these motorbikes here.

If the use case in Africa is as described, and they can deliver this for this price, I think there may be a market.

JJ
JJ
1 day ago
Reply to  Eggsalad

Agreed. Given motorcycle ICE taxis exist, they must have an economic benefit over bicycles. Even paying for electrons, I imagine this setup gets an even better return.

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
1 day ago
Reply to  Eggsalad

The e-bike remains a significantly better deal, especially if you have limited access to electricity. A battery that is a fraction of the size, with the primary downside being a 25% reduction in top speed.

JJ
JJ
1 day ago

Are there ebikes that can carry two pax and match the payload?

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
19 hours ago
Reply to  JJ

There are so many different configurations. Some with as much capacity.
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/fetch-plus-4/

Jesse Lee
Jesse Lee
1 day ago

I am not seeing how they are ‘pointless’. Sur-Ron dirt bikes are very popular. You can go off-road or stunting without making a huge racket.
E-bikes have their place, but that’s a different sector altogether.

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
1 day ago
Reply to  Jesse Lee

Given the components, weight, and capabilities, the Sur-Ron is closer to a high-end e-bike than it is to a traditional motorcycle.

PaysOutAllNight
PaysOutAllNight
1 day ago

Anyone who goes even 40 mph on most ebikes is borderline suicidal.

Anything under $3000 likely doesn’t have a frame sturdy enough for that, and the frame geometry of most are designed for speeds under 25 mph.

Even some of the $3000+ ebikes feel awful going over 30 mph.

And almost all of ebikes are prone to death wobble when near or over 30 mph.

There are very good reasons why motorcycles have much larger diameter steering head stems and bearings. And that’s just one of the many differences.

Last edited 1 day ago by PaysOutAllNight
MAX FRESH OFF
MAX FRESH OFF
1 day ago

I wouldn’t trust most ebike brakes or tires at 25+ mph.

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
1 day ago

Nonsense. I have a cheap, small-wheeled e-bike that can do 30mph with zero drama. I often do 35+ downhill on my regular bike with zero issues as well. Small wheel scooters like Vespas are far less stable at speed than most bikes. There are plenty of high-grade bikes, mountain bikes especially, that are robust enough for speeds of 50+.

All the added bulk and drag of motorcycle components needed to regularly do 65mph make efficiency at low speeds terrible, while wind resistance makes it terrible at over 55mph. At speeds above that, BEV cars become more efficient due to aerodynamics. BEV motorcycles are in an awful no-man’s-land.

PaysOutAllNight
PaysOutAllNight
1 day ago

Just because you haven’t experienced it yet doesn’t mean your bike is designed properly for the speeds you’re rolling.

Downhill racing mountain bikes have different geometry than the road oriented ebikes we’re discussing.

And anyone who races them knows to check the headset and the frame itself frequently, because it takes a lot of wear that ordinary riders don’t expect.

There are no mountain bikes going 50,000 miles at 50 mph without frame damage.

MrLM002
MrLM002
1 day ago

There are no mountain bikes going 50,000 miles at 50 mph without frame damage.

If they’re made of chromoly or even mild steel of the proper thickness with quality suspension I see no reason why they wouldn’t be able to do so.

The issue with this bike is it’s 352 pounds, without the spare battery, or anyone on the bike. At speed on pavement it’s probably not a problem at all. At slow speeds in technical crap you need to move it around at a moment’s notice to keep it from sliding out from under you.

If I were building an electric motorcycle for Africa I’d probably take a Rokon Trailbreaker, put in wheel motors in both wheels, a decent sized battery pack, and otherwise keep it stock, and it would almost certainly be lighter and more capable that this motorcycle in everything but top speed.

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
19 hours ago

I put over 2000 miles a year on my bikes and have for nearly 40 years. Downhill is an extreme example, and the same checks and maintenance would be needed on motocross bikes doing that same activity.

The point is that at around 50mph the efficiency of any type of bike or motorcycle takes a dive and makes battery power untenable with current technology. Below those speeds on the road, a properly designed e-bike would be plenty capable of dealing with the speeds and conditions while being far more usable and efficient than anything that calls itself a motorcycle.

A quick survey of a popular used motorcycle site shows that of the first 200 listings of bikes with over 50k miles, only two were under 1000cc: an 850cc BMW and a 1980s Honda Hawk. Small bikes are simply not ridden that much. Adding in all the weight and inefficiency to accommodate a use that doesn’t exist isn’t a winning strategy.

The issue with BEV motorcycles is that they are terrible at doing the speeds and distances that require motorcycles rather than bikes. They are mostly pointless objects.

SarlaccRoadster
SarlaccRoadster
1 day ago

My electric unicycle goes 40+ mph, and it only has one wheel, 2-wheel pansies 🙂

Last edited 1 day ago by SarlaccRoadster
Rust Buckets
Rust Buckets
1 day ago

Wait until you find out how fast people ride on pedal powered mountain bikes and road bikes. I’ll go 30+ on a Huffy, 40-50 is nothing crazy for road bikes.

If $3000 e bikes can’t go as fast as a Huffy down a big hill, that’s because they are catastrophically bad machines, not because of some inherent limitations of a bicycle frame.

Drive By Commenter
Drive By Commenter
20 hours ago
Reply to  Rust Buckets

I was going to say, I used to regularly hit 30-35 mph on my road bike for short sprints on flat ground. And bombed down hills going significantly faster. Thankfully rural roads don’t have many driveways with people turning out!

Michael Oneshed
Michael Oneshed
12 hours ago

This is silly. E-bikes top out at 30 mph safely, and my cute lil e Vespa does 45 with me, a passenger, and picnic fixings. They’re just 2 different things.

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
12 hours ago

E-bikes are limited by regulations on what can travel in bike-friendly pathways and without a license. Not by the mechanical realities. There are numerous e-bikes that can carry up to 500 pounds and have ranges exceeding 60 miles. A class-3 version can be throttle-controlled up to 28mph. Most are capable of more if the area allows.

The electric Vespa can carry less than 300lbs, has about a 60-mile range, and costs $8k. The only benefit of the Vespa is the extra 15mph and still isn’t in the motorcycle category by any stretch.

The issue for BEV motorcycles or bikes is that speed above about 45mph absolutely kills battery range. Stuff at lower speeds are basically bikes/mopeds. Just some don’t have pedals.

4jim
4jim
1 day ago

The lines between Electric motorcycles and electric bikes are getting closer. At least with peddles you can get someplace to recharge.

MrLM002
MrLM002
1 day ago
Reply to  4jim

Maybe I’m just soft, but in my experience if you have ANY sort of grade you have to climb you’re better off pushing than pedaling a heavy bike. That’s the Swiss Military Bicycle doctrine, you only pedal on the flats and the downhills.

Personally I’d rather just have a quality regenerative braking system over pedals, and if I had to have pedals I’d want them to run a generator that charges the battery, no direct drive, just a means of getting exercise and generating a little extra electricity

Drew
Drew
1 day ago

I like a lot of this, but there are a lot of unanswered questions. How much is the all-in price? How much is the battery subscription? Could you buy the subscription model, then just buy some batteries and cancel the subscription?

I like the idea of the battery swap stations, but I don’t like the idea of being locked into a subscription to keep my motorcycle going. I’d much rather have batteries I charge at home and the option to pay for a swap.

Of course, since this isn’t going to be available to me, I don’t actually need those answers. But I assume the potential customers will have the same questions.

Drew
Drew
1 day ago

Oh, shoot, that’s not bad, then. I think buying the bike and batteries is the move, but it might depend on electric costs and usage (and, probably, your faith in the company’s maintenance of heavily used batteries), since those prices are pretty good for an immediate swap to a full battery. Thank you for the update!

I probably should have waited until I got home and reread, because I think I had the wrong idea about pricing because I kept having to do work things instead of focusing on the article. Thank you for clarifying!

Last edited 1 day ago by Drew
4jim
4jim
1 day ago

I love the idea of swappable batteries in EV. I am not a fan of the drug dealer like subscription model of tech capitalism.

JJ
JJ
1 day ago
Reply to  4jim

Then again, there’s some benefit to never having to worry about MY battery degrading. Let the company worry about maintaining their fleet, so long as they charge you for the actual kW they’re giving you and not the battery’s original capacity. It all depends on battery durability/reliability, the cost per kW they charge vs you pay at home, etc but I could see this making sense for people.

4jim
4jim
17 hours ago
Reply to  JJ

Yes, I also have lots of batteries for my cordless tools and I also own my own propane tanks. I like the swap-able idea without the subscription.

Michael Oneshed
Michael Oneshed
12 hours ago
Reply to  4jim

Any vehicle is a subscription, to one extent or another. The question is how locked into a monopoly you are. For inputs where there can be standards (gasoline, electrons), we can enforce the level of competition necessary to give consumers adequate power.

4jim
4jim
12 hours ago

I did not realize I was in a subscription model with my medical clinic and the grocery store.

Michael Oneshed
Michael Oneshed
12 hours ago
Reply to  4jim

Again, because there is adequate competition to even the power differential. Head to a small town with only a Wal-Mart, or get prescribed a med with only one producer and a balking insurance company, and the constraints start to bind.

Toecutter
Toecutter
1 day ago

Doable.

I built an electric mountainbike with specs 2/3 as good and easily replicated for the $1,500 price using all new parts, paying retail cost for parts and international shipping costs for parts, without the advantage of economy of scale.

Realized specs: 40 miles range at 35 mph, 40 mph top speed, 1.5 kWh battery, 1500W peak output.

The motor and controller I’m using could briefly do 10 kW peak, if I spot welded a battery up to the task of that output. With ferrofluid and cooling fins, this motor is capable of 4 kW continuous, even though it is officially rated for 1.5 kW continuous(used to run it at 10 kW peak in my electric velomobile before upgrading the motor in it to a 3-turn wind version of the same motor).

Throw in economy of scale, get rid of the bicycle pedal drivetrain and its associated costs, and consider that the upgraded frame/brakes/wheels/tires/electronics won’t cost much more to make vs what my mountain bike has(motorcycle tires would actually be cheaper than the ebike tires I use), and I can see how this is possible.

Now, imagine what would happen if someone built a enclosed, aerodynamic, single-seat 3-wheeled microcar using most of the same parts. Consider the price point possible for bare-bones enclosed transportation with 150+ miles range being under $2k to perform like a normal car, and $5k to perform like a supercar.

Last edited 1 day ago by Toecutter
M SV
M SV
1 day ago

I’ve often wondered why someone especially Amazon hasn’t used the Gogoro model in urban centers in the US. Those Amazon lockers could easily have a section for the battery swap station. Ebike minus the battery isn’t too expensive can sell for a reasonable price and you get a new subscription plus look like some kind of green hero doing it.

Last edited 1 day ago by M SV
Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
1 day ago
Reply to  M SV

Because nobody is going to ride a bike more than 50-60 miles a day and needs to swap a battery.

M SV
M SV
1 day ago

Maybe not many but I’ve talked to messengers that do. Plus if the thing can do 55 maybe some commute. Not a huge market but it exists. Plus people clown around and ride motorcycles around could be the same. Those guys often do 100 miles just riding around. It makes them useable. If you can go 50 miles then have to wait 8 hours to charge not so useable.

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
1 day ago
Reply to  M SV

The market is so small that there wouldn’t be enough demand to justify installing battery swap stations in a usable way. Additionally, e-bikes already offer ranges of 50 miles or more, and if you commute more than 25 miles each way, you can plug it in while at work or simply purchase a second battery.

To make it feasible, you need a large population of people who ride motorcycles/scooters long-ish distances all the time. That doesn’t exist here.

M SV
M SV
1 day ago

Alot of cities have growing amount of pmd / ebike / e-scoots riders. Even starting to go into suburbs. Things are changing. While I don’t think there was a market a few years ago there definitely is enough they could grow into one now. The gogoro are mainly scooters maybe thats a better way to describe them. I think you are thinking like petal bike with motor. This is slightly different. The batteries are alot bigger. And take a lot longer to change on a standard outlet.

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
1 day ago
Reply to  M SV

The retail e-bikes and scooters benefit from swappable batteries, and owned e-bikes don’t either. They just aren’t ridden long enough distances to make it worth it.

Once you leave e-bike territory and head into the size of traditional scooters and motorcycles, the population becomes too small to matter.

The issue with BEV motorcycles is that they are amazingly inefficient. At low speeds, bicycle designs are infinitely superior in every way due to the much lighter weight and mechanics built to make the most of a minimal human power source. Motorcycle components have huge amounts of drag to deal with their mass and the potential for much higher speeds. At the higher speeds where those components matter, the aerodynamics of the rider destroys efficiency, and cars become a much better design. Traditional motorcycle designs don’t work as BEVs and won’t until battery technology improves substantially.

M SV
M SV
1 day ago

The limited range is why the battery swapping makes sense. Smaller battery more efficient because they are lighter that makes the bikes easier to use and cheaper. Trying to build some rice rocket or Harley thing yeah that’s not going to really work for this. But maybe the power of a 500cc or so could be possible. All the torque of the motors really helps with that. I don’t think it would be deployable everywhere but larger cities and college towns there is probably enough to justify it. Especially if you went to the vinfast / gogoro models.

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
19 hours ago
Reply to  M SV

There are almost zero 500cc motorcycles sold for road use. They just aren’t viewed as viable for regular freeway miles. BEV versions are even worse, given the laughably short range. To be useful to extend ranges over 60 miles daily or so you would need to put swap locations much more often than charging points for BEVs. All for a form of transportation that makes up a tiny fraction of the number of vehicles. Not going to happen.

People don’t want 500cc bikes as ICE and giving them much shorter ranges and dependent on battery swaps at locations that are much less frequent than gas stations. isn’t going to make them more popular.

For short distances, under 60 miles daily, e-bikes are just a far superior format. Less expensive, more flexible, easier to charge, no registration, park anywhere, etc.

M SV
M SV
8 hours ago

Tons of 500cc jap bikes even Harley has one they used to have that beul too. Ninja 500 is quite popular as is the rebel 500.

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
7 hours ago
Reply to  M SV

Small displacement (500cc or under) aren’t nearly as popular as large displacement bikes. Also, ‘sold’ doesn’t necessarily mean ridden many miles. Small ICE bikes are great for sipping around town, I have one, they aren’t great for any distance.

But BEV bikes are terrible because their limited range/performance makes them closer to e-bikes than ICE motorcycles.

Headfullofair
Headfullofair
1 day ago
Reply to  M SV

Pop Wheels in New York City is the only US-based e-bike battery swap service I know of. Would be interested to hear about others. https://www.popwheels.club/

M SV
M SV
1 day ago
Reply to  Headfullofair

I had only really heard of Swobbee operating in NYC. But haven’t heard much and nothing positive about them. I’ve been told there are some pilots on some us campus’ but haven’t actually seen anything written up. So it sounds to me they are research projects.

Eggsalad
Eggsalad
1 day ago

It certainly hits the sweet spots I’ve been looking for, aka The Rule of 55:

55mph top speed
55 miles of range
$5500 out the door.

I’d buy one tomorrow.

Eggsalad
Eggsalad
1 day ago

That’s a 37 mph bicycle with a 50-mile range. It fails 2 out of 3 criteria.

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
1 day ago
Reply to  Eggsalad

It is a hell of a lot closer than anything that calls itself a motorcycle. Plus, within your budget, you could have the extra battery and get over 80 miles of range. So you miss one of the criteria by about 25% but also take about 20% off your budget.

Eggsalad
Eggsalad
1 day ago

This is what I want, but OTD it’s $1500 over my price point.
https://www.niu.com/us/product/mqi-gt-evo

Ignatius J. Reilly
Ignatius J. Reilly
1 day ago
Reply to  Eggsalad

The range or price doesn’t hit your targets. I’d still say the e-bike is a much better deal.

M SV
M SV
1 day ago
Reply to  Eggsalad
Last edited 1 day ago by M SV
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