The last few years have felt like one ongoing discussion of the ways in which customers and dealers have had to cope with shortages of popular vehicles. Now we’re starting to see the opposite as certain segments of vehicles are finally catching up to demand and, in the case of full-sized pickups, probably exceeding it.
Welcome back to The Morning Dump, the post that tries to ingest all the news like you might ingest a giant hoagie and reproduce it in smaller, easier-to-cope-with nuggets of wisdom. Not only are pickup inventories high right now, they’re also specifically high at Stellantis. What is going on at Stellantis?
Lamborghini has hit a sales record because Lamborghini, unlike Ferrari, is happy to sell you a car. And, finally, BYD’s gotta boat.
There Are So Many Pickup Trucks Y’all
When I first described the concept of trimflation–the preference of automakers to prioritize higher trim and thus more expensive models in the face of supply constraints–I chose pickup trucks as the main evidence of this. These are major profit centers for automakers and, historically, there’s a nice spread between affordable entry-level work trucks like the Silverado WT and fancy Cowboy Cadillacs like the GMC Sierra 1500 Denali.
In the months since that article inventories have started to climb and, for the first time in a long time, there are plenty of trucks. Maybe too many trucks?
That might be the case according to S&P Global’s latest estimates:
The full-size truck is a key profit generator for the Detroit 3. But when too many are on showroom floors, deep discounting happens in a rush. At the end of December, there were 307,000 full-size pickups available, up from 229,000 the same time last year.
The number of trucks sort of depends on where you look. Here’s what carbuying site CarEdge shows for full-sized trucks:
Recently, CarEdge also showed that there are a lot of 2023 models still for sale as of the beginning of January, which might be a good place to find a deal if you’re in the market.
What’s with all these trucks? According to CarEdge‘s Zach Shefska it all comes down to price, pointing out that the average transaction price is now $66,511 for full-sized trucks according to KBB/Cox. That’s up 3.1% year-over-year, compared to an industrywide price drop of 2.4% year-over-year.
“In my humble opinion, that’s why there is a glut,” Shefska told me. “That’s also why Ford just announced 1.9% APR for 72 months. “Someone is going to have to pay to get these things moving again.”
That makes sense to me. S&P also found that discounting was ramping up at automakers:
And there’s one automaker in particular that has a lot of work to do:
Who is slashing their big pickup prices? Ram dealers, with 75% of dealer-advertised units below MSRP. The average discount is also sizably more than that of the tight pack of Chevrolet, GMC, and Ford. But even Toyota is discounting. Hot take? There is a lot of inventory out there…deals could be coming.
Again, Autopian cofounder Beau said 2024 was going to be a year where consumers have a lot more choice and a lot more power. This seems to be true in full-sized pickup trucks, especially at Stellantis.
What Is Stellantis Doing?
Of all the Detroit Three automakers, Stellantis is the most perplexing. The company had a strong 2022, but the North American part of that equation clearly owed a lot to inventory shortages and the ability of its brands to raise prices.
This year was a lot tougher, with the company seeing an overall sales decline of 1% year-over-year in a growing market. New products like the Dodge Hornet are not moving quickly and the company’s products feel old and less competitive.
Stellantis has abandoned the Super Bowl, where it historically loves to advertise. Even worse, the company is abandoning auto shows and leaving it to dealers to pick up the pieces. Here’s a report from Automotive News on what’s going on there:
As the automaker pulls out of many auto shows, dealers around Dallas are banding together to ensure potential buyers still can get up-close looks at their products and gauge them against the competition.
But the lack of corporate support will limit what attendees can see to models currently in showrooms. Upcoming vehicles such as the electric Ram 1500 REV and the plug-in 1500 Ramcharger with its onboard gasoline generator aren’t expected to appear.
Stellantis dealers will do what they can to generate exposure but will miss buzz-building vehicles such as the REV, said Charlie Gilchrist, who owns four Stellantis dealerships in the area and is working to fill the void with other members of the North Texas Automobile Dealers trade group that organizes the show.
That’s not great, and it does seem like Stellantis continues to build cars at a rapid rate and is leaving it to dealers to figure it out, though there’s perhaps some logic here.
Vehicles like the 2025 Dodge Charger Daytona EV are still far from production and the company’s current brands are better known right now for the vehicles they’re losing instead of introducing. Perhaps it’s better for Stellantis to keep its powder dry until there’s something to actually brag about.
Oh, and the company’s North American COO Mark Stewart is out, soon to be replaced by Carlos Zarlenga:
Effective February 1, 2024, Carlos Zarlenga will replace Mark Stewart to leverage further improvements in Stellantis’ performance in North America and unleash the iconic American brands portfolio potential in close cooperation with their CEOs.
Carlos Zarlenga is a seasoned leader with more than a decade of automotive experience in EMEA, Asia Pacific and Latin America, together with a strong financial background. Since he joined Stellantis in 2022 as President of Stellantis Mexico, he has delivered a year-on-year improvement in sales performance, market share and AOI, leading to the best profit level ever recorded in Mexico.
If there’s one recipe for success in the automotive industry, it’s to be a guy named Carlos.
Lamborghini Sells More Than 10,000 Cars For First Time Ever
Lamborghini has come a long way from near-obsolescence to a successful automaker, and a lot of credit goes to Volkswagen’s oversight and the leadership of the company under its longtime Chairman and CEO, the always impossibly well-dressed Stephan Winkelmann.
Seriously, I’ve met Winklemann a few times and have had dinner with him at least once and his suits are sharper than a Countach’s doors. He posted an update on LinkedIn this morning and he let slip the news that the company reached a first-ever delivery of 10,112 cars worldwide:
We delivered over 10.000 super sports cars and super SUVs for the first time during the course of last year. Playing a role in achieving this watershed achievement for Automobili Lamborghini S.p.A. is an honor for me and for everyone who worked tirelessly to reach these goals.
This is a major accomplishment based on true teamwork. But as always, we’re not stopping at individual targets. In fact, we’re more than ready to take on even more exciting new challenges in 2024.
It does feel like I’m seeing a lot more Urus crossovers lately.
As I’ve said many times before, Ferrari sells “scarcity” and requires you to buy a few cars they want to sell you before you can buy the car you actually want. Lamborghini isn’t quite there yet, it seems, and that’s not a bad place to be in a growing market for high-end automobiles.
BYD: NOW I HAVE A SHIP HO-HO-HO
As soon as I saw BYD’s press release announcing its first RoRo (roll-on, roll-off ship for transporting cars) I immediately thought of that scene in “Die Hard” wherein the Bruce Willis character writes “NOW I HAVE A MACHINE GUN, HO-HO-HO” in, I think, red ink on a bad guy’s sweater.
Maybe it’s because that BYD, like John McClane, seems like an unstoppable force lately.
Here’s the announcement, btw:
The EXPLORER NO.1, proudly bearing the BYD nameplate, will undoubtedly provide a significant boost to BYD’s international logistics capabilities amidst constrained global ro-ro shipping resources. Measuring 199.9 meters in length, the vessel also exemplifies BYD’s commitment to sustainable shipping owing to pioneering advancements in green and intelligent shipbuilding technologies. With an exceptional loading capacity of 7,000 vehicles, the EXPLORER NO.1 is equipped with an innovative dual-fuel LNG (liquefied natural gas) and conventional fuel propulsion system. Over the next two years, seven more vessels are expected to join the fleet, all integrating BYD’s energy storage battery tech and shaft generator systems, truly embodying BYD’s vision for a greener maritime transportation era.
Wang Junbao, General Manager of BYD Corporate Division, highlighted that China’s NEV industry achieved a historic milestone in the previous year with sales and production exceeding 9 million units, significantly contributing to global green mobility. The successful launch of EXPLORER NO.1 marks a pivotal step for BYD in expanding overseas markets. In line with its collaborative spirit, the company plans to not only deploy these ro-ro ships for its own operations but also engage in open partnerships, forging a new epoch for Chinese automakers on the international stage.
BYD is coming.
What I’m Listening To While Writing This
Big Thief’s “Masterpiece” album. Check out that sweet Chevy-based Horizon Class B RV.
The Big Question
What are big truck prices like in your area?
The Big 3 are in the same predicament they were in 1974:
Too many large vehicles the lots that people couldn’t afford to drive, much less own.
In 74 their small cars were generally crap – Now they have no small cars to sell, and refuse to build enough of the small trucks people want.
If they go hat-in-hand to the Feds for a bailout once again – I’m all for letting them die.
Plenty of other automakers here who sell actual cars.
Also the mid 1980s – when the Japanese raised prices due to the voluntary import restraint agreement, and the Big Three took advantage of the breather period and better interest rates and also started prioritizing pricier models. Then a sassy little Yugoslavian import showed up and proved there was still a market for cheap cars that nobody was serving anymore.
Also an inexperienced Korean manufacturer showed up with a slightly better inexpensive car – and later became an automotive powerhouse.
Same thing around 2008, tough economy, higher gas prices, no decent small cars…
Regarding the pickup trucks… I predict there is a market reckoning coming for pickup truck sales that will be similar to what happened back in 2009.
Only this time it might be worse as automakers like Ford, GM and Stellantis don’t have as many car options to fall back on.
I’m looking forward to watching car and truck prices drop over the next 6 months. I’m already seeing prices in my area drop.
I’m watching prices regularly because my 2008 Fit is getting to the point of needing replacement.
But I want to hold off for as long as possible because new and used car prices have a lot more dropping to do and car makers and dealers are gonna have to give up the pandemic pricing dream that they are still clinging to.
I actually just bought a truck – 2015 GMC 2500, crew cab long bed with minimal options, 6.0 gasser, and nearly 200k miles – it still cost $15k and even after I finish fixing it up and I’m close to $20k deep it’ll feel like a bargain compared to the rest of the used market right now.
Not only is option bloat a big problem, so is basic truck functionality. It’s now entirely impossible to get a half-ton with an 8′ bed and has been for years. Even 6.5′ is becoming scarce. I get that most truck buyers just want to roll around with an empty bed anyway, but if I’m on the road I’m hauling construction materials or debris and a lot of it (I have an old 94 Ranger with a 6′ bed that’s still better than modern full-sizers that I daily if there’s no big hauling on the agenda).
A smaller truck with a bigger bed would’ve met 90% of my needs and I’d have gladly sacrificed that last bit for better efficiency, but those just don’t exist…
There is no such thing as a work truck anymore, everything is 2-row seating and stubby little beds at too high of a load height.
Even at stock ride height this thing is at least 8″ higher than my old Chevy I’m replacing. I couldn’t imagine regularly loading multiple sheets of fire code drywall onto a roof rack because my bed is too small to carry them…
Fold down the tailgate, those sheets will fit in the bed just fine.
Dealers might not stock them, but you can definitely order a half ton with an 8 foot bed.
Regular cab only, and I do frequently have some tools with me that I prefer to stow behind the seats instead of an open bed, plus occasionally need to transport people as well.
Ford still lets you buy an extended cab long bed, but no one has ever sold a CCLB 1/2 ton, that is not an option that’s been taken from you.
I had to buy an HD because I wanted CCLB as well, so I’m in much the same boat as you.
Wasn’t aware Ford was still doing them, but I know GM used to have an extra cab and hasn’t for a while. That said, I’m more of a 2nd/3rd owner for a truck I’m going to run into the ground anyway and if no one is custom ordering them from the factory that means none are trickling down to me in the resale market.
Now is a terrible time to buy any vehicle that is on a declining price curve. The knock on effect of discounts off msrp will be a nosedive in resale value in 1-2 years. (See used ev values since Elon-the-Erratic started slashing prices).
Look for loads of folks to roll their underwater loans into their next poorly considered purchase, thus perpetuating their financial disaster.
This musical choice is extremely satisfactory.
The trucks though… All of them are too expensive. You can’t even get a base Maverick around here at all. Three local dealers, they ordered a single one between them. It was gone before it even hit the websites.
Greed made them miss the market. Now I’m not buying at those MSRPs. They’re going to need to swallow a loss. Or they can keep ’em.
I really wanted a Silverado W/T for the steelies, but when I was shopping could not find any with the Crew (not Double) Cab and short bed so the lowest I could go was something called the Custom, which, consistent with the bespoke nature the word “custom” implies, comes comes in like 4 colors with minimal options.
It was $37,995 in April 2023, which was about $8,000 off MSRP. It’s gotten lower, I think around $36,000, but I needed it enough that I had to settle for $8,000 off instead of really trying to time the floor.
I do not understand the people that option them to twice what I paid or more, especially since I’m fairly confident I have more income and wealth than the vast majority.
I think it comes down to a lack of understanding principles of finance and/or a good understanding of what a healthy short and long term budget looks like. People will look only at what the monthly payment is think to themselves what they can probably do that number with a little luck.
It is my guess Racer Esq, you have most, if not all, of that money acumen, but like me, assume that other people should also have what we consider essential knowledge to survive or accel.
You might every well have more income and wealth than the vast majority. A lot may chaulk up your success to luck or their failures to bad luck, but for consistently successful people, they will tell you that luck has little to do with it.
There are people that are just looking for safe, reliable transportation that get screwed. They have a responsibility to avoid that, but also financial education should be better, and as laissez faire as I am I support some regulations against particularly predatory practices. I feel bad for them and not going to laugh at them.
On the other hand, if you are financially illiterate AND still feel entitled to an $80,000+ pickup because this is ‘Murica and it’s what baby Jesus says you deserve then I am going to laugh hard when the repo man comes.
For the truck deals, I’ll believe it when I see it.
“That’s also why Ford just announced 1.9% APR for 72 months.”
$66,511 for the truck, with 20% down is a loan of $53,208.80. Add 1.9% APR to get $54,219.77. Divide by 72 is $753.05. That’s one hell of an albatross to have around your neck for 6 years.
“There is a lot of inventory out there…deals could be coming.”
It’s not a deal unless there’s serious cuts to the already inflated MSRP. Makers are going to have to do a lot more than financing shenanigans if they want to move these trucks. The total costs have to come down. Nobody wants a $753/month payment on a Ram.
$753.05 is less than the average new car payment in Texas.
https://www.autonews.com/finance-insurance/whats-big-texas-monthly-auto-loan-payments
>Nobody wants a $753/month payment on a Ram
That is absolutely insane, just no, I mean, no, stop doing that people.
Only consolation is that it is the average, maybe the median is actually more reasonable?
this^^
That’s why they have the highest profit margins and why they keep cranking them out. Body-on-frame is now a century old, and other than some minor improvements (mostly cosmetic), and some mandatory-now tech inside there’s nothing expensive about them. Leaf springs, solid axles, pushrod engines, everything is so old they could sell these at half their current prices and still make plenty of profit.
I wish the EPA would get rid of the stupid footprint rules for gas mileage, so they’d be motivated to at least try to do something about the low 20’s trucks are getting.
753/month isn’t even that much if you live on either coast.
It’s more than my rent with utilities included… No car/truck is worth that.
Now THAT’S impressive. I thought I was doing well with a mortgage more than 50% over that. The last time I could keep my housing costs that low, it was 2009 and I had the apartment complex over a barrel. Assuming that doesn’t keep you tied to a location with no opportunities and low pay, hold on to that and sock away cash and the world becomes a different, better place with more options in it.
Seems like everywhere you look people are complaining of living paycheck to paycheck on $100k+/yr, and that’s insane. Gotta get those housing expenses down.
Maybe if you’re single and make the median wage in DC.
$750 a month into a retirement account is well over a million dollars come 65.
I’m not in the demographic, so maybe I just don’t understand. Are people that buy luxury pickup trucks for personal use really motivated by some cash on the hood? I mean, they don’t seem like people who make good financial decisions in the first place or maybe just don’t have impulse control. I guess if your current vehicle really needs replacing, you would probably enjoy saving a few dollars. I think just about everyone I’ve met who drives these things just wanted what they wanted NOW and didn’t really consider price to be a big factor.
Incentives make much more sense to sway people in real need from one competitor to another or to upgrade, but that’s more in line with a commuter deciding between a Civic and an Elantra, or maybe taking the discount and moving up to an Accord.
I just don’t get the impression personal truck people reason this way. I mean just look how fast people buy trucks when gas prices drop and then either dump them or regret it when the prices go back up. Like, do people not have the ability to think six months out?
“I mean, they don’t seem like people who make good financial decisions in the first place or maybe just don’t have impulse control.”
Nailed it.
There are, despite news sometimes acting otherwise, many people for whom a truck is a staple for their life. Not a fashion choice, but a use case. Many of those people are not insanely wealthy, but nor are they stupid. If they have to spend all day using a truck, many of them want to be in comfort and will spend some extra for it. They are called Cowboy Cadillacs for a reason. Cowboys are a perfect example of someone who has huge use case for a full size truck and might want comfort. So are construction crew managers. So yeah, there are tons of people out there in the blue collar world who want a new truck and would be motivated by cash on the hood.
Absolutely true. There are also 50 families in my neighborhood with expensive trucks that use them to haul their kids to the bus stop.
$66k for an ICE pickup is insanity. $66k also buys a very nice used R1T or soon a Cybertruck.
The Detroit 3 are head in the sand with EV adoption. They’re treating the current sales lull as if it was permanent. Nope, not at all. The tax credits just changed, charging standards are having to change for them from CCS to NACS and they had supply chain issues like everyone else. Plus it’s frickin’ winter after the holidays with rate cuts being announced for later this year! Anyone contemplating a large purchase is going to do the rational thing and wait for six months until stuff settles down.
There’s not even a sales lull! Just slower growth.
Very true.
“$66k for an ICE pickup is insanity. $66k also buys a very nice used R1T or soon a Cybertruck.”
Agreed, but $66K is also insanity for a used Rivian or Cybertruck (if they ever get that cheap). As much as I do not recommend spending $66K on an ICE pickup, that truck will probably hold its value much better than a current generation electric pickup. The Cybertruck will hold its value if it remains truly niche, but if they ever figure out how to mass produce them they will fall like a rock like any other used Tesla.
IMO the Rivian much better suits the current use case for a pickup than any of the ICE pickups. It does outdoors better, it’s much cheaper to run and it can still be okay on a fire road. And for the quad motor ones the value is more quantifiable than any cowboy Cadillac due to the drivetrain and software.
When they can offer double digit rebates on a truck and still make money, that’s an issue.
It was only like 10 years ago that Cadillac was trying to sell a $75k 2 door version of the Volt with the ELR and people laughed at them.
Now everyone’s selling $75k trucks and people are like, “well I guess that’s what it costs, 10 year loan here I come.” When right next to those on the same lot is a $25k Maverick. What about the full size makes it cost triple? Is it triple the metal? Is the engine triple the complexity? Triple the seats? No, none of that, it’s just they feel they can. I can see a $25k markup from the Maverick to a full size, but not $50k.
These are trucks for crying out loud, they don’t even have fancy handling suspension or anything, body on frame, slap some pleather in it and an ipad in the dash and somehow that equates to big money, crazy.
In my area, the demand for the Maverick still far outstrips supply, so while Maverick is absolutely the rational answer for most people’s truck needs, it isn’t easy to get your hands on one.
working as intended
“Oh we don’t have any Mavs right now and probably won’t for a while. Can I interest you in an F-150?”
Yeah, unfortunately you are spot on. Gotta’ push those high-margin vehicles!
“I’ve got this great used F150 with 44 thousand miles on the clock. Top of the line. Sold MSRP $77K 20 months ago at this very dealership. I can let you have it for $68K today. But you have to finance with us.”
“Jobber trade in?”
“No. Sad situation. Had to do a repo. Great truck though.”
“It was only like 10 years ago that Cadillac was trying to sell a $75k 2 door version of the Volt with the ELR and people laughed at them”
Mostly people were laughing because of how much of a premium they thought they could charge for making it less practical, restyling the interior/exterior, offering NO performance improvements and slapping on the Cadillac badge.
It looked especially bad when compared to the Tesla Model S or even the Fisker Karma.
And the Tesla and Fisker both still looked like proper luxury cars, instead of a rubber door stop with wheels.
“Mostly people were laughing because of how much of a premium they thought they could charge for making it less practical, restyling the interior/exterior, offering NO performance improvements and slapping on the Cadillac badge.”
Maybe they thought we forgot about the Cimarron.
I can get an F150 Lightning Pro for $39K after the Federal and State EV rebates and the advertised discount, there are several in my area. It’s kind of funny how the Pro can now be had for the original announced price and all of Ford’s customer-hostile pricing BS was for naught. I lost my boner for the truck but this deal gets me a little half-hard again.
I should also mention that many dealers have Platinum Lightnings sitting for like 300+ days on the lot. I have no idea how they will sell those boat anchors.
I do: “At a loss.”
User name checks out.
BYD: We’re gonna need a bigger boat
I was so sad to find out that line isn’t actually in the movie
I thought it was in the movie
Technically, it’s:
“You’re gonna need a bigger boat”
….I think I reverse Mandela’d myself
Here at work, we have a Silverado 2500 HD ZR2 Bison available for the low, low price of $92,000 plus TTD
That’s a nice truck, but damn they’re spendy. I really liked the AEV concept GMC with the regular cab and flatbed tray.
It is nice no doubt, but it just baffles me that you can get a brand new C8 for less
Definitely.
Last week I test drove a 2023 Sierra 1500 that was shown at $6000 off Msrp. Nice truck, but I didn’t care for the color. The only other truck on the lot , in the color I liked, was a fully loaded 24 Denali Ultimate which wasn’t marked down. They said I could have that one with the $6000 off if I wanted it. Just goes to show what the markup is on these things.
$6K is hardly a dent in the profitability of a Denali Ultimate.
All the dealers have cash on the hood here.
Except for Toyota. Those bastards still want a 5-10K markup over MSRP.
My coworker just picked up a new Tundra at 55k MSRP minus 1,000 in “Toyota cash” for financing with them.
I’m sure all the new products will have the markups though – Tacoma, LC250, GX550, 6th gen 4Runner.
Toyota is just in a weird Toyota-reality where they have shit financing offers and dealers won’t budge on price, but they keep on selling.
I’d wager a good number of Toyota customers never even cross-shop anything else, and just buy Toyotas because “Toyota”.
I cross shop every time I purchase. But 50 years of Toyota ownership has convinced me it’s a waste of time for me. TBH I tried to remember/count how many Toyotas we have owned since 1974 but can’t, it’s a lot though.
Every time I have risked buying a different brand it just ends up being disappointing.
Yeah I know someone like that. After a string of BMWs, his last in the early nineties drove him mad with service issues, he just said Toyota from now on out and never thought about it again. Funny, he seems to always have one of the two family Toyotas in the shop for something.
Toyota, for all the flack they’ve gotten about being late on EVs, absolutely nailed it by hybridizing everything. That is a huge reason they seem to be the only ones still pricing things like it’s COVID and are getting away with it.
I love my Hybrid Avalon, big car that still gets 40mpg around town. Wish they were gonna keep making them.
“New products like the Dodge Hornet are not moving quickly”
Heck, they’re apparently barely moving (or running) at all.
Thanks for the introduction to Big Thief. I’m gonna have to check out more of their stuff.
Check out their song “Vampire Empire”
Boy, that BYD ship is impressive. Obviously, there are larger vessels that can handle more cargo but the tonnage on that bad girl is gonna be crazy when loaded with 7k EVs. I’d have to imagine the stopping distance would be roughly Rhode Island. It would be so cool to get to take a tour of it, if for nothing else than to see what the crew accomidations are.
I mean the truck situation isn’t complicated. $66,511 is around the median household income in this country. I’m far from a mathematician but I feel confident in saying that that’s way, way more than the average customer can afford….and if you need goddamn 72 month financing and 10% under MSRP deals across your lineup to move your product you done goofed. Majorly.
We’re seeing all the chickens from the extraordinary run of corporate greed over Covid finally coming home to roost. All of the Big 3 went all in on price gouging, focusing on selling people way more than they need and can afford, and essentially acted like the absurd price bubble was going to last forever.
Guess what? It didn’t. It wasn’t ever going to…and now they have a problem on their hands. Maybe I’ll play them a sad song on the world’s tiniest violin? Regardless they’d better not come crying for government handouts in the next few years. If you’re going to do totally off the rails antisocial turbo capitalism you can’t go crying foul when it eventually destroys you. Greed is a hell of a drug.
I am also going to take this opportunity to reiterate the fact that the vast majority of people buying trucks don’t need them, that they’re incredibly wasteful vehicles, that our roads are needlessly dangerous because of their proliferation, and that the free regulatory pass they’ve been given for decades needed to be incinerated years ago. We have reached peak truck, and it’s just as stupid as we all thought it would be.
Anyway Stellantis is in big, big trouble. Regulations have stripped them of the one thing they had…big honkin V8s. Unfortunately they put all their eggs in that basket, were comically late to electrification in any capacity, and now they have to deal with the consequences of their actions. I have no idea how they’re going to adjust and I’m certainly not envious of their decision makers.
I’ve come around to Big Thief slowly but surely. I initially didn’t really understand the ridiculous amount of hype around them/indiefolk and most folk in general really isn’t my thing….but SiriusXM keeps playing the song Vampire Empire and I’ve really come to enjoy it. There’s a certain rawness to their sound and approach that I appreciate and Adrianne is ridiculously talented.
Would I go out of my way to listen to them? Maybe not but I certainly wouldn’t hit skip when they come on. That being said if I want somber acoustic indie vibes I usually go directly to Kurt Vile and am never disappointed…although he has yet to release an album that I really love front to back. For me he’s definitely more of an individual songs artist, and that’s fine/more or less the norm these days anyway.
The pricing bubble may or may not burst, but one thing for certain is that the purchasing power of a dollar isn’t gonna get better. $50k is the “new black” or something like that.
Not to me it isn’t. Other people can pay $50,000 for a new car if they want, I’m not participating
I could afford to spend a fair amount more than $50,000 on a car if I really wanted to but I balk at the idea of even spending 50. I love cars (we all do) but tying up that much of your money in one is objectively stupid.
I cap myself at $30k. Just a mental block I can’t get past, I just can’t conceive of needing to spend more than that to get a perfectly decent, serviceable car, and frankly, I don’t and nobody really does. I can, sure, but I’m just not going to. Some people are “house poor”, with a disproportionate percentage of their gross income going to pay mortgage/taxes/utilities on a giant McMansion. Some people are “car poor” with a disproportionate percent going to make the payment on their big truck. A lot of people are both. I refuse to be neither.
I’m going to have to soften the stance inevitably, as my employer is now requiring that employee’s personal vehicles cost at least $35,000. My last new car in 2022 cost me $28,000, and I’m grandfathered in, but they require us to buy a new car every 4 years, so my next one will have to break the 30k barrier barring a change in policy
My mental cap is $20k. A new car isn’t ever going to happen, I think.
I’ll be happy to sell you a new Versa for $35k…
What kind of a dick employer requires that YOU pay over $35K for your PERSONAL vehicle? There better be a fantastic car allowance behind this. Personally, I’d buy a classic from BaT, park it in my garage, and continue to drive my $28K sh!t box while the classic appreciates in value.
I get a flat $424.94 plus about 30 cents a mile, with my driving, it works out to about 53 cents a mile combined between the two, but fluctuates, the more I drive, the less per mile it works out to, can go as low as 43 cents in really busy months or as high as 60 in lighter ones, always winds up under the IRS rate of 65.5 though
That’s such BS, your employer should have a fleet of corporate cars if this is so important to them.
These days, a lot of people are house poor on a >1000 sq/ft fixer uppers, it’s not even about a McMansions anymore.
Some type of customer-facing sales role? Wealth management? I had an initial revulsion to reading this but I guess there are some jobs (“Please give me millions of your dollars and I promise I will give you millions more back.”) where image is everything
Genuinely curious – what is the rationale behind this employer’s requirement?
They probably don’t have one, nobody seems to know
They probably don’t want people thinking that their employees are ‘poor common folk’.
That was my first thought too, but then what if you buy a car that visually is nearly identical across trim levels (like a Model 3)?
Though the Model 3 is the least expensive, it still comes across as something a poor person won’t be driving.
Fair point.
The problem with all the greed chickens coming home to roost is that it never ends with whatever shortsighted dipshit suit who bet the whole company on the COVID times lasting forever facing any consequences – it ends with layoffs and said dipshit getting a bonus for making the hard financial decisions to let other people pay for his ineptitude.
Ah yes, the golden parachute. Fire the CEO for millions in cash and options.
“if you need goddamn 72 month financing and 10% under MSRP deals across your lineup to move your product you done goofed. Majorly.”
Eh, its nothing 96 or 120 month terms can’t fix.
Better yet rewrite the law so debt is inheritable. People in debt will have kids just to saddle them with that debt at birth. That way those kids can start start working of that debt (+ interest of course) ASAP!
Sure it might take a while, maybe an entire lifetime so they better have kids of their own ASAP to inherent the debt. This helps solve the totally made up “problems” of low fertility and labor shortages too!
(In case its not clear: /s)
What is sad is that something like this is actually plausible in this country. And were that to come to fruition, this wouldn’t be the first “developed” country to do this. Consider that Japan handles housing debt in much the same way you propose depending on what type of loan contract was signed.
When I was in graduate school I got the very strong impression I’d have had a much easier time getting out if I had gone out and recruited a
sucker, er candidate, or two to replace me.Time share all the things!
You probably predicated a future trend. I think I recently saw a headline about “generational mortgages”, so it may already be a thing. It definitely sounds completely American.
IIRC the way it works is if you inherit a house with a mortgage on it you have the option to inherit the mortgage as well regardless of your credit history. If for instance your parents left you a house with a tax basis at $200k but could be sold that day for $4M with the market going nowhere but up you’re going to want that house, especially if it was refi’d at a historically low rate.
If you have crappy credit, you’re between jobs whatever you’d be SOL but if you can service the debt long enough till you get a job you can take the mortgage along with the house instead of being forced to sell it. It happens a lot more often than you’d think.
Huh. I might have a kid if I could do that. I don’t want to deal with a baby though, what if I adopt a troubled teen?
As long as you can saddle them with ALL your debt you’re good.
(Now if I can just adopt a centenarian with health issues…)
Ramsey says the value of your vehicles shouldn’t exceed 50% of your yearly income, so 30k-ish should be the realistic limit for the average earner. Even then though, with the cost of housing, that sounds like a high number as well.
I’m 45 and the most I ever paid for a vehicle (4Runner) was 23K five years ago, payment was 440-ish and I paid it off in a little less than two years.
The discounts are getting tempting though – Stellantis and dealers are putting a lot of money on the hood of Gladiators, these days I can get a 60K Gladiator Rubicon for closer to 40. Now I’m in that 60K earner range, so technically this is too much vehicle for me. I’ve done the mental gymnastics though, and with my 4Runner trade and some cash down, I can get the financed amount down to 20k. I’ve never had a brand-new vehicle before, and I’ve wanted a Rubi since 2003 when they originally came out. Plus, I actually do like the look of the Gladiator.
I’ve been living like a hermit the past few years trying to hoard money for my first home purchase, but I keep getting priced further out of the market, so maybe … eff it?
I’ve wanted a Wrangler for a long time now, but maybe it’s age because I’m having a harder time justifying the price now that I could afford it versus when I couldn’t.
I was tempted by the discounts on the Gladiator for about .5 seconds until I remembered I don’t care for the Gladiator – I want a Wrangler.
This is an age old phenomenon. I wanted to get a bunch of tattoos when I couldn’t afford them. Once I could I didn’t think it was worth the money and wasn’t interested anymore. To this day I have 0, and honestly I’m glad. Not to knock anyone who’s into them or anything but in my age group (millennials) and especially the youths it’s almost more common to have them than not these days.
It’s the same way with cars. My whole life I dreamed of a Porsche or a BMW or something. Now I can afford a mid level BMW or a decent enough certified Porsche that isn’t a 911 and I don’t really see the point in the burning my money on either now that I can.
If I ever buy a luxury car it’ll be Japanese and I’ll try to keep it for the rest of my life because that’s the most financially sensible way to do it. There’s a reason why Lexus-es (Lexi? Lol) hold their value so damn well. As cool as it would be to have an M2 or Macan S or something why would I drop $60,000+ on one only for it to be worth a little more than half that once the warranty is up? It’s a lot of money to throw away.
More of just a general commentary re: tattoos. It’s buying art. The number of people I know who think that art should only cost X or ‘holy shit that’s expensive art (usually not even an original anything) can’t seem to reconcile the time and cost alone that goes into the creation of visual art (in taking paintings, wall art kind of stuff) and how much mid tier art from someone who’s been trained NEEDS to cost in order for that person to make a living wage.
Long story short I also don’t have tattoos or good art because I don’t have any bones or clams or whatever we’re calling it these days
Oh yeah, they’re way overpriced at MSRP. The discounts bring them down to a reasonable price. The Wranglers with no discounts are absolutely nuts. I actually like the Gladiator though, for my use it’s probably more practical. And from the driver’s seat it’s the same as a Wrangler.
So your answer to ongoing financial difficulties is to adopt more financial difficulties? No. Keep your powder dry. Wait for the market to fall.
Then you’ll get to be one of those that people point to in envy: “How did HE get so lucky to buy right when the market was at its lowest?”
Or you can drive a brand-new Jeep off the lot, and from that moment on, a used Jeep, and later be one of those pointing fingers and asking dumb questions.
Oh, wait. We’re on an automotive site, not a financial advice site. Eff it, buy the Rubicon.
You’re not wrong. As far as the market falling though, I don’t see that happening, I’m not seeing any expert predicting that, my take is that as soon as rates fall and the market unfreezes, the bidding wars will start up again.
Prices have pretty much doubled in my area over the last few years with no end in sight.
Got one of my new cars during the pandemic for 5k down and 0% interest! Feels good making that payment.
50% of your income sounds insane. Our two cars are under 20% of yearly, (both bought used for cash) but I’m a cheap bastard and houses here are stupid expensive so I have a big ass mortgage.
Dave Ramsey would be proud of you! Depends on income too, there comes a point when having 50% of your income tied up in vehicles is a ludicrous amount of money, but if you only make say 50k it’s not that hard to end up there.
Yeah I do make about 50k. And it took me 25 years to get there. And living in an area that ends up in magazines has driven the housing up to where unless you had a house, you’re not getting one. I don’t understand how people can afford new or even late model vehicles. Let alone the repairs and insurance and plates. I’m thankful that late model stuff doesn’t strike my fancy, and I can work on the old stuff and be self sufficient otherwise.
I’m in the same boat as you. I live (rent) in a coastal town that has gotten super popular the last few years, 64% of real estate transactions in 2023 were out of towners buying vacation homes. All but the most affluent locals are priced out.
My 60K job (started at 8/hr in 2000) is in another coastal area 30 miles away that has also skyrocketed, I just checked listings yesterday, the cheapest single-family home (618 sq/ft) would be 100% of my take-home with 20% down.
My older coworkers that already own homes are in a great position – the rest of us are fawked.
I am SO lucky that my landlord is a local guy and not corporate, he’s been great at keeping my rent relatively low despite the market increase.
With housing so dire and me never expecting to own one, it’s tempting to just say eff it and buy the nice vehicle. I can easily swing the payments and can still keep a 12-month emergency fund in the bank.
I won’t though, ultimately, I’m too cheap for that.
This is just a sign that things are going back to normal. Pre-covid you shouldn’t have accepted anything less than a 15% discount off MSRP on a full-size truck. RVs were even worse – 25 to 30% was the usual discount there. I don’t know why the relationship between MSRP and actual selling prices was so tenuous in those markets (I suspect maybe fleet buyers paid MSRP?), but huge discounts have been “normal” for a long time.
Stellantis corporate leadership has completely lost the plot on what the NA market wants and is willing to tolerate. They pushed higher trims and upmarket brand image and models when Covid hit because the market was desperate for any and all new cars available, but when nearly every manufacturer is trying to do the same and with near universally better vehicles, it makes anything Stellantis creates an awfully hard sell. The Hornet trims that are compelling are far too expensive and unreliable, the Pacifica is aging poorly, the Jeep lineup is a hot mess, and the aggressive attempts at trying to improve CAFE numbers is eliminating the models people actually want to buy, or jacking up the prices on those models to be uncompetitive even with incentives.
Compare that to Mazda who is making a very earnest effort at slowly moving upmarket by listening to consumer feedback and focusing on value and streamlining their models, versus the apparent Stellantis model of “bling it up and they will come” which just isn’t working these days.
Had 2 Pacificas as rentals over the years, they were nice enough for what I needed them for and might consider buying used if not for then known Pentastar issues and my own checkered history with Chrysler product ( ’89 XJ, ’99 WJ and ’00 300M). I now own Toyota and Honda/Acura.
Every Mazda I’ve driven I have been impressed with.
My family went from entirely Toyota and Honda to primarily Mazda with a couple of the other two sticking around. It’s not because we’re Mazda die hards or anything, its just that their cars new or used seem to be the best value for their class and meet our needs well. Mom has a CX-9, Dad has an ND2 Miata, I’ve got a CX-30 Turbo and NA Miata, and my sister will likely be getting a CX-5 to replace our 2nd gen 3 Hatch we just sold but had for about 8 years. Reliability isn’t quite as solid as the equivalent Honda or Toyota, but the experience is far nicer for the same money, and used a CX-5 is like 20% cheaper than the equivalent CR-V and Rav4, and honestly seems to be a much nicer vehicle for the same age/miles based on what I’ve sat in. The brand isn’t perfect by any means, but we’ve all been extremely happy with every Mazda we’ve had and have no regrets.
The CX-90 looks like a champ, too.
I also come from a Toyota/Honda family. Currently, my wife and I have a 2014 CRV, 2004 Tacoma, NA Miata and a 2016 Mazda 3. Sister-in-law is in a 2014 CX5. Both the newer Mazdas are a joy to work on. Everything I’ve worked on is in a thoughtful or serviceable position.
Mazda seems to have more rust issues here in PA than Toyota/Honda. That has held me back.
That’s valid, I know the early aughts cars specifically were rust prone, but I can’t speak to newer stuff. I would assume newer models like the CX-50 build in partnership with Toyota would have better metallurgy and more rust resistance, but have no evidence of that.
Last Mazda 6 I drove was at least as nice as the Acura TSX I owned and far roomier. It instantly went to my short list.
Stellantis is also being very tight-lipped about product plans and letting rumors and speculation go a bit crazy. I get that you want buzz, but at a certain point, you need to tell dealers and prospective customers what you’re going to do, if someone is going to buy a new car within the next 6 months to a year, they’re going to buy from a competitor and take themselves out of the new car market for several years, unless Stellantis gives them a reason to hold off on that new purchase until their new model hits showrooms, and with no information coming from Stellantis, there’s no reason to hold.
Chrysler Airflow – was shown in production ready form, good response from dealers, decent response from press, production plan announced, then pulled back so the product could be refined and improved or something, then no new information. Is it still coming or not?
Dodge Charger – is there definitely going to be an ICE I6 version in addition to the Charger Daytona EV? If so, are they going to launch at the same time, or is there going to be a one year gap between the EV and ICE versions? Are the ICE versions going to be hybrid or PHEV or not? What about body styles? There’s been rumors of both sedan and coupe, only coupes have been shown. What about pricing? Rumors are a $20,000 increase over the old Charger & Challenger, which is really horrible all around if that’s the case.
In the absence of actual information from the company, people are going to be given to speculation and rumors and will always assume the worst. Someone who might be in the target market for the Airflow and inclined to buy it is going to go off an get an Ioniq5 or something if Stellantis doesn’t give them a good reason to wait for the Airflow, like by confirming its even still happening
We are not going to tell you SHIT about the future plans.
Just get your ass in the showroom and then MAYBE we will tell you a nice fairy tale.
Fuck them.
Yeah, it’s crazy to me that they are this tight-lipped about their most profitable market. Back when they were FCA, they held-off on new car development while they were chasing a merger. Well, the merger happened, they are now part of a conglomerate with good R&D and a number of great platforms, and it’s still crickets for three years.
I get it, developing new cars from scratch is extremely difficult, expensive, and time-consuming. But you’ve got to do something as a stopgap. Why not import some of those excellent PSA vehicles over here and badge them as Chryslers? (Yes, homologation would be needed, but it’s far less expensive than a clean-sheet design.)
The one that still kills me is the China-market Jeep Commander. It was a midsize 3-row CUV built on the CUSW platform, so a North American version could have been built at Belvidere with minimal plant revisions. There’s your Dodge Journey replacement, but call it a Chrysler if you want. Instead, they just chose not to have any entry at all in the hottest segment in the industry. It’s all just so utterly perplexing.
Truckuary Sales-a-Thon followed by Truckarch, then Truckpril
I only buy trucks in Trucktember.
I’m eagerly awaiting a flood of articles about how this shows the transition to big trucks has been pushed too hard by automakers and regulations, how customers don’t want big trucks, and how dealers are fighting back against trucks.
The world is returning to normal, soon it will be Truck Month for all.
Anecdotally, dealers around here still have off-premises parking lots full of trucks they hoarded in anticipation of a long UAW strike. If you want a 1/2 ton, you can probably get a great deal on anything short of a Raptor or TRX. Deals on HD models are a bit harder to find, Ram aside.
Live every month like its truck month
#trucklife
I recall Ford had hundreds of F series stored at the lots of Kentucky Raceway off of I71 a few years ago.
I enjoyed the Big Thief video but it should really have a disclaimer advising against the use of a vacuum in a lake.
There area few trucks at my local Ford dealer with over $17,000 off MSRP and they are still expensive, same thing at the RAM dealer
There is a Ford dealer on the radio who often advertises $10,000 off on nicely equipped trucks. Some people hear that and think “What a deal!”. I think “Damn, that thing must be really expensive for that kind of discount.”
The automakers keep producing expensive trims even when the demand isn’t there. For Example the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of orders for the new Ford Maverick are for the XL trim and a smaller majority of them are for the XL Hybrid. Yet Ford is prioritizing XLT 2.0T production.
Automakers are playing stupid games, and they’re about to get their stupid prizes.
Not only that, but full size trucks are just plain too expensive now. The highest volume Ford dealer in my metro region doesn’t have a single F150 for under $45k. The cheapest one listed is a ’23 4×4 XL with a $48.2k MSRP and a “sales” price of $45.5k. It’s a pretty dang bare bones truck, with the turd 3.3L V6 even, yet they still want just over $45k for it.
I took one of my vehicles in for an oil change ($40 coupons make it cheaper to have them do it than I can buy the oil and filter for, plus I can work from the waiting room), and they had fliers all over a truck parked in the adjacent showroom claiming it was “$44,995*”. It looked like a well optioned truck, so I peeked at Monroney and it was just shy of $70k. Sure enough, that asterisk had tiny language on the bottom that fleet buyers could special order a stripped out model for that $45k price tag. I got annoyed and pulled out my phone and looked at what they had in stock on fullsize trucks. Sure enough, of the 43 trucks they had on the lot, that nearly $70k truck in the showroom was the cheapest one. Absolutely bonkers.
Yeah, this is a bit like getting a partial scholarship to an expensive private college with a generous dollar value on it that just takes the tuition from “insanely expensive” to “still really expensive, just a bit less insanely so”
The real fun comes when you graduate to find the only jobs you can get are exactly the same ones as people used to get without degrees.
That didn’t happen in my case, but I’m very aware that it does.
I also remember laughing and throwing the papers in the trash when those sorts of offers came in. Oh, you took a $60k school down to $40k? Still couldn’t afford it, so into the circular filing cabinet it went. Same reaction to trucks, oh, $10,000 off on a $70,000 pickup? BFD, still too expensive, still not interested
Except the degree is required by anyone hiring for that job… because the company doesn’t want to spend two weeks training the new employee, and the company also wants a good little debt slave sunk six-figures into student loan debt that will do everything they are told…
Yeah, my son will soon be going out into the land of debt vulturing employment and it scares me that I don’t have any real answers to it.
Unsure about the American system (but I have some ideas) where I am, corporates only hire degree holders because a highschool education has been so demeaned (everyone need to get a HS diploma if they can spell their name or not) that it’s not treated as a qualification at all anymore.
The key metric is a degree, any degree where you were given the opportunity to fail and did not. It means you can use a clock. It means you can read (seriously, this is how bad it’s gotten in some cases).
In the U.S., a college degree won’t even be a good indicator that someone can actually read or do basic math.
It’s little more than a permission slip to work a white collar job.
Can you do the work but lack the degree? Not hired.
Do you have the degree but don’t know what you are doing? You have a chance…
In high-tech, specifically software engineering, it’s a relatively pure meritocracy, and not having a degree doesn’t hurt you much at all. Other industries are pretty different, I understand.
Except the degree is required by anyone hiring for that job… because the company doesn’t want to spend two weeks training the new employee
They still have to spend two weeks or more training. That’s why they prefer to hire help from the competition and only hire fresh graduates when absolutely necessary.
and the company also wants a good little debt slave sunk six-figures into student loan debt that will do everything they are told…
That’s what H1Bs are for. Debt slaves are good and all but nothing motivates a worker like having the legality of your presence in the country subject to the good graces of your employer. If that person carries a bunch of debt so much the better.
Have some Canadian buddies on TN Visas who are absolutely terrified of layoffs. It sucks. Hard. You can build an entire life here and have it taken away in a day.
And that’s the way employers LIKE it!