While it’s not as bad as the 753-day supply of Jeep Renegades from earlier this year, the many Dodge Hornets for sale is another sign that Stellantis hasn’t quite found it yet. How many Stellantis products would you guess make the top ten list of vehicles by market day supply? Four? Six? More? Yes, the answer is more. Let’s take a look at a list of the vehicles filling up dealership lots these days.
It’s a Monday here in the land of The Morning Dump and I’m excited to talk to you about Mazda and its EV plan, because up until now the plan had all the coherence of the musical Cats, which is to say very little. Also, fun fact, the only time I’ve seen Cats live it was in German, but it didn’t make any more or less sense.
Tesla is still resistant to Northern European unions, causing more trouble for the company there in terms of backing from large investment funds. How long can Musk hold out? Probably forever.
And, finally, America is the absolute global leader in oil production and is otherwise crushing it, but we have a Democrat in The White House so it’s a little awkward to talk about.
So, So, So Many Dodge Hornets
The Dodge Hornet is a shortcut. Let’s be honest. It is an extremely lazy rebadge of the Alfa Romeo Tonale, which is already a second-string crossover (Car and Driver places the Hornet 12th out of 21 small crossovers). It is quick for a small crossover and comes with a PHEV version, which is cool, but this is an extremely competitive segment and a starting price higher than the CR-V is hard to swallow.
Just for funsies, I looked around to see what people are listing these things for and I found vehicles like this 2024 Dodge Hornet R/T Plus for $49,720. Yikes. If you’re a Hornet owner or fanboy and can justify that price to me I am all ears.
Looking at the CarEdge data on Market Day Supply for December, which takes the number of vehicles it sees listed across dealerships and the number that sell over 45 days and calculates the number of days it would take to sell, we can see a lot of Stellantis. Too much Stellantis.
The top of the mountain (or bottom, maybe) is the Ram 2500, but this is a small number of vehicles (1,602 for sale) and the vehicle has undergone numerous recalls this year so it’s a little harder to pin that down to low demand or oversupply.
What stands out to me is the Dodge Hornet, which went on sale earlier this year and had 10,781 for sale, but only moved (via this data) about 939 cars during the period at an average selling price of $39,931. Market day supply is 517. This lines up pretty well with the 1,753 Hornet sales that the company reported in Q3 of this year.
Obviously, it’s a new-ish vehicle, so production and availability could always be issues, but the disparity between the number of vehicles available and those sold seems a little too great for that. We’ll see when Stellantis reports quarterly sales in January.
The rest of the list is, woof, not great for Stellantis either. In #3 is the Dodge Charger, which everyone knows is on the way out, followed by the Dodge Challenger, which is also not long for the world in its current iteration. The good news is there are a ton for sale.
There are three non-Stellantis products on here, including the Mach-E (matching the Challenger in sales pace, though with slightly fewer for sale), the outgoing Jaguar F-Type (but there are only 657 of them for sale), and the Mercedes-Benz SL.
Looking at the list of cars with the lowest Market Day Supply shows a bunch of affordable-ish cars, some hybrids, and a few super in-demand vehicles.
With just seven days of Market Day Supply is the extremely popular RAV4 Hybrid, followed by the hybrid-only Toyota Sienna. Two cars I’m considering buying next, the Ford Maverick and Corolla Cross (also both available as hybrids), have a 31-day supply. Shout out to our awesome colleague Jessica Ray, who just picked one up:
After 15 months, I’m the proud owner of the cutest, cheapest, and most fuel efficient trucklet you can buy!
Meet my 2024 Ford Maverick XL Hybrid! I’m so happy she’s here ???????? pic.twitter.com/sqha36vXHS
— Jessica Ray (@jessicaray0) December 10, 2023
Both the Kia Rio and the Chevrolet Trax are on this list, with average selling prices of $19,091 and $24,430, respectively. The Land Rover Range Rover Sport, GLC-Class Mercedes, and BMW X5 are also here because those are popular vehicles people love.
Given the preponderance of crossovers and hybrids on the good list just highlights how awkward it is to have the Hornet on the bad list.
Mazda Is Going To Be An “Intentional Follower”
Mazda is hard for me to classify. The company’s cars look great. Most of them are among the best vehicles in each class. They’re still making the Miata! I intrinsically like Mazda and, yet, Kia and Hyundai are running laps around them by doing what I think we all suspect Mazda is capable of doing.
Like many other Japanese automakers, Mazda has been behind on EVs, offering only the super weird MX-30 thing. Given everyone freaking out about electric car demand, maybe that was the better plan?
The future of Mazda has been a little uncertain to me, but CEO Masahiro Moro talked to Automotive News and he’s got a strategy.
“One of the big issues for us is demand is uncertain,” Moro said. “In the current market, the reality for electrification, in particular for battery EVs, is the pace is not that high. So we may start a little slower in terms of the ramp-up. Not necessarily in terms of timing, but the ramp-up.
“That is why I call us an intentional follower on EVs.”
Mazda expects to derive 25 to 40 percent of its global sales from EVs in 2030. But Moro said EV demand, worldwide and in the U.S., is trending toward the lower end.
While EVs will be running slow, Mazda is joining the hybrid hype train with the rest of us:
Plug-ins account for half the volume of the CX-90 crossover in the U.S. That is about double the ratio the brand originally forecast, Moro said. And for the CX-50, Mazda expects a hybrid version to account for 20 to 25 percent of sales when it is added as an option.
The CX-70, expected to land stateside next year, will also get a plug-in hybrid.
Unlike the CX-90 and CX-70 plug-in systems, which Mazda developed in-house, the CX-50 will adopt a hybrid system from partner Toyota Motor Corp., Moro said. Toyota owns a 5.1 percent stake in Mazda, and Mazda makes the CX-50 at an Alabama plant jointly operated with Toyota.
2024. Year of the Hybrid!
Tesla, Unions, Nordic Pension Funds, Et Cetera
Tesla’s ongoing battle with unions in Northern Europe continues, with the latest twist being demands from Nordic pension funds that CEO Elon Musk just recognize the unions and move on to other things.
“Tesla’s attitude against the right to collective bargaining is of deep concern,” said a draft of the letter to the carmaker’s management provided by Norway’s largest pension fund KLP.
The Nordic region’s labour market model combines high job mobility with income security for the unemployed through a long tradition of dialogue between employer associations and labour unions.
“(This model) has enabled the Nordics to thrive as one of the most prosperous and harmonious regions worldwide,” the draft letter said.
Harmony. Love. Working together. Gløgg. Those Norwegians have it figured out.
Drill, Biden, Drill
“.. American oil production — already higher than any other country — is quietly setting new records and helping to push down gas prices.”@axios #OOTT ⛽️ https://t.co/FB5o9oZjax pic.twitter.com/IUl7Bd3Fw5
— Carl Quintanilla (@carlquintanilla) December 11, 2023
Raise your hand if you knew that America was the biggest oil producer in the world coming out of the pandemic. Raise your hand if you knew we’re hitting record amounts of oil production at 13.1 million barrels a day.
It’s ok if you didn’t know. If we had a Republican as the president then it’s quite possible that the president would be crowing about this fact. For a green-forward, climate-forward progressive like President Joe Biden, it’s a little more awkward.
This graphic comes from Axios and they make basically the same point:
Between the lines: The record drilling — and how to talk about it — has squeezed President Biden between young climate activists and persistent GOP attacks on his energy record.
Biden has remained relatively silent about U.S. oil strength. But he does like promoting lower gas prices, which this supply increase helps enable.
Some moderate Democrats want Biden to openly take credit for record production.
Making it even more awkward is that President Biden has only so much to do with this. There are a lot of places that the industry would like to drill and they can’t, which is why a lot of the boom is coming from private lands.
The Big Question
What do I have to do to get you, or anyone, into a Dodge Hornet today?
The problem with the hornet is they were clearly designing and getting this thing ready for market in the midst of the Covid pricing surge. So they filled it with expensive tech, and used really nice quality interior trimmings, but that’s not really what most people are shopping for in a small SUV.
If people have the budget for a $40,000 plus suv, they are NOT shopping Hornets.
Our Base GT models have so far been selling pretty well, but the farther away from 30K they go, the longer they sit.
This needs to be price competitive with the new Chevy trax to be any kind of success, and it’s just not.
great insight alert!
Wait…They named it after an old AMC? Nothing says class and upward mobility like calling a $40,000 CUV a Hornet. Jeez Dodge what are you all smoking?
Chrysler has always been one to dust off old nameplates, seemingly more than GM or Ford. The Pacifica name was on 2 concepts, the 2nd previewing the production crossover that bore the name, and then eventually a minivan today. The Hornet offers a GLH package as a nod to the Omni GLH too.
But then it’s also a brand that offered a color called Contusion Blue on many models, even the Grand Caravan…
I’m very surprised that they haven’t been able to stick a smaller (non-hybrid) engine in it yet, such as the same 1.3T (180hp/199lb-ft @1850 rpm) used in the hybrid, or a version of the 1.5T (160hp/177lb-ft w/hybrid) the Tonale is sold with in other markets. 180hp is about the norm in this segment for a base engine.
I get that Dodge is supposed to be a performance brand, but it’s also the same company that sold:
Grand Caravan (average power for the class)Durango (average base engine but with upgrade options)Dart (average base engine and a warm upgrade engine)Avenger (both I4 & V6 competitive with contemporaries)Dodge could probably use the (averagely powered) 1.3T (non-hybrid) as the base engine, 2.0T for the higher trim performance models, and simply drop the plug-in hybrid and let it be an Alfa Romeo exclusive. Alternatively, drop the 2.0T and use the PHEV as the upgrade engine, which is likely going to be a trend at Stellantis soon.
Then, make a new base trim that removes the following from the current base model:
AWD, as FWD is enough with 180hp, and AWD can be optional (this would also improve fuel economy further, but may be a deal breaker for too many buyers)Standard adaptive dampers (how many shoppers even notice this?)Power folding mirrors with integrated turn signals (do folding mirrors matter much in the USDM?)One-touch windows on all doors (just the driver’s window is enough on the base model)Rain Sensing Wipers (unless it’s required for IIHS ratings)Cloth/Leatherette seats, full cloth is good enough (if the leatherette is minimal, then leave it be)12.3″ Instrument Display, an analog speedo with a smaller screen can do (and is a good upsell feature)
This will probably push down the (currently $31.4k) starting price into the high $20ks, which is a lot closer with things like the Escape, CR-V, Sportage, and Equinox.
You’d need to keep stuff like the driver assists, since the IIHS requires that all trims come standard with these to qualify for important Top Safety Pick awards. You also shouldn’t remove push button start, since the Kia Boys scandal would make buyers wary. Leaving the big 10.25″ UConnect screen standard will attract buyers, and idk if FCA has a downgrade options for it anyways.
“I get that Dodge is supposed to be a performance brand”
There is a point of HUGE annoyance for me, These brands and their “Identities”
A while back, Stellantis decided that each of it’s brands had to have it’s own mission, ethos, and customer base. It’s just so dumb to me, because you’re limited now with what you can do. Chrysler was supposedly going to be the “people mover” brand (dumbest thing I’ve ever heard) Jeep the “Adventure” Brand ( sure, lean into that, it works) Ram with their Work image and Dodge, the “Performance guys”
Stellantis in the US should be a two brand ship.
+Let Chrysler die. Leave it go, with some dignity. Extend the 300 and Pacifica one more year, while they work on a rebadge for the pacifica, which would be:
+The new Dodge Caravan. Simple rebadge of the pacifica, but with a bit more macho styling and a chargery front-end. IT WOULD SELL.
+Next, a Rebaged Compass with that same aggro styling. Call it a Spirit, call it a neon, Idongiveashit. Just offer a low cost suv to slot under the Hornet.
+Roll Ram back into Dodge, it’s been 10 years and EVERYONE still calls them Dodges.
Make a Ram Dakota out of the gladiator bones. Slightly bigger interior, bed and cab, but all Jeep Gladiator Running gear. Solves two problems. Dodge get’s a midsizer, and toledo is back up to three shifts again.
+ Plus of course, the new maverick/Santa Cruz fighter. Dodge Rampage sounds a HELL of a lot better than Ram Rampage or Ram 1000
Now, You have Jeep, with their full catalog, and Dodge, now with a full compliment of vehicles, ready for a REAL resurgence.
No gimmicks. No sport or performance pretenses. Just nicely styled domestic vehicles. And then little by little, you grow those brands by keeping things fresh and working on quality control.
Hyundai and Kia didn’t become cool and fashionable because someone came up with an “Image” for thier brands. They became cool because they started building shit that looked cool, and priced that shit fairly.
That could be us, Stellantis,
That could be us!
See that makes sense. Problem is, you gotta sell the idea to guys educated in Europe and wearing fancy Italian shoes. They will never understand.
“Stellantis in the US should be a two brand ship.”
Nah… They need more than two brands. The brands I’d keep in North America are Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep, Alfa Romeo and Maserati
Dodge – Sporty vehicles, affordable vehicles, mass market vehicles, trucks… including all the vehicles under the Ram brand. Dodge would be for going against Ford, Chevy, Hyundai, Kia, etc.
Chrysler – Affordable luxury vehicles. Take Dodge vehicles, make them quieter, smoother riding and more luxurious. Have Chrysler versions of Dodges where it makes sense. Chrysler would go against Buick, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti and the lower end Euro luxury vehicles.
Jeep – Continues what it’s currently doing.
Alfa Romeo – higher/high-end Euro performance vehicles to go up against BMW and Porsche.
Maserati – really high end luxury/performance vehicles. Should go against the Mercedes S-Class on the LOW end, Bentleys on the high end.
I would kill off the Ram brand (It should go back under Dodge) and Fiat in North America.
Nobody I know is aware of the Hornet, or that Dodge sells anything other than the Charger/Challenger, which ironically are about to be no more.
Stellantis desperately needs to invest in some real marketing for their vehicles. I haven’t seen much of any attempt to promote the Hornet, and even worse, they’ve made it clear to those that have noticed it, that it’s way overpriced. It’s a compact CUV from a regular-ass brand. It needs to be priced as such, or nobody is going to be bothered to even take a look at it.
I’ll be honest, I don’t even know what marketing looks like anymore.
I have ad free spotify. I have ad free streaming services. I have a pi-hole on my network so I don’t see ads.
What does marketing look like in today’s world?
As crappy as it did in 1980, but louder. And less learing double entendre.
The 1980s were good for something.
Dodge needs Spuds Mackenzie! Is he still alive?
I think we all need Spuds right about now. Spuds for President!
The way I look at it, the person I know best that owns a compact CUV?
My wife. She’s in her 30’s. She’s sort of the bread and butter demographic for the compact CUV segment.
My wife spends probably a little too much time doom-scrolling on Instagram. She watches TV, some of which is ad-supported (Hulu). She’s at least somewhat plugged into pop culture. But I’d be willing to put every dollar I have on her having no idea what a Dodge Hornet is. So Stellantis may want to start there.
I had completely forgotten that Dodge made a Hornet and I’m sure about 37.3 minutes after reading this article I will have forgotten all about it again.
If I knew about the Hornet, I’d long forgotten it. It’s not at all clear to me why Stellantis keeps Dodge and Chrysler brands alive at this point. With the death of the 300, Chrysler sells, um, one model of vehicle, the Pacifica? And Dodge dealers only have an SUV and a CUV to sell, after Chargers and Challengers run out?
I assume the only reason these dealers still exist is because they make money on RAM and/or Jeep.
One of the issues with these Stellantis products is that they aren’t really discounting them all that much outside of Jeep and RAM. I’ll occasionally browse Charger listings and V8 ones are still generally going for MSRP. Higher trim models like the Poo Packs and Hellcats still go for above sticker a lot of the time. At the end of the day spending $40-50,000 on an RT or Poo Pack that has cloth seats and a rental car interior is just not appealing when there are performance luxury cars within striking distance. Ditto with the 300s.
That being said due to the dingbats that often find their way to Challengers and Chargers it’s damn hard to find used ones with a clean CarFax. Seriously. Go on your favorite search site, search for V8s of whatever year range you want, then check the “no accidents” box. Over half of them will disappear. Maybe that’s the angle they’re going for?
Either way they’re not competitive where they’re currently priced…especially when you can get a trauma center spec’d Mustang GT in the high 30s and LT1 Camaros around 35. Both just offer way more performance, and the base S650 interior isn’t all that bad. The base Camaro interior is laughably low quality but who cares? LT1 V8 go brrrrr and Tremec go click. Plus that’s much easier to swallow at 35 than 45.
Anyway, much like most of Stellantis/Doge, the Hornet/Toenail are 3-5 years too late. It would’ve been an appealing product back in 2018 but the rest of that class has improved dramatically. The new CRV is straight up just a really nice car. My MIL has one of the higher trim ones and if it wasn’t for the CVT you could cover the badge and I might mistake it for an Acura while driving it.
The HRV is similarly nice. The new Kona is basically the same idea but for $5,000 less. The Japanese competitors offer traditional hybrids, which much like Hansel, are so hot right now. Would you rather drop 35k on a RAV 4 Hybrid or FIFTY GODDAMN THOUSAND on a Hornet RT? Even if you want a PHEV specifically the RAV 4 Prime undercuts it and the XC60 PHEV is a couple grand more and dear god does that run laps around the Toenail.
The product was DOA and I think it’ll get shelved in the next 2-3 years. When it comes to the lazy ass Hornet reskin they should’ve either leaned in and gone full DOGE or leaned out and gone further with the hybrid/EV tech. If they’d have crammed some sort of rowdy ICE powertrain to it and offered a bunch of ridiculous stripe/trim packages they might have been able to attract the sort of buyers that like the Charger/Challenger.
And if the electrification went further and it was more efficient they could’ve woo’d some of the more appliance oriented shoppers. But instead we got this stupid half baked product that’s a weird in between that no one wants.
Also-we have a commenter here who said they’d go out and immediately buy a Hornet if they were given $120,000 on an article last week. I’m sorry I’m forgetting your name…but we’d love to hear from you RIGHT MEOW. And I don’t mean this in a mocking way, I am genuinely curious as to what your line of thinking is because clearly it’s unique and there are some people out there who this product has resonated with.
“ which much like Hansel, are so hot right now. ”
David Tracy demands that you remove this reference that he and (according to him) 80% of Autopian readers don’t “get” 😀
(Extremely underrated film, IMHO)
I wouldn’t be caught dead paying hybrid money for one of these. I’m 100% for a “base model” GT with the Cold Weather Package and the Track Pack.
It’s a small CUV, way faster than my current Compass, and I’d likely still get better fuel economy then that same Compass. It’ll also handle better and do speeds I should never do but would likely try at some point. It’s a lot of positives to me.
Plus, I’m local to a Dodge dealer, so it’s not like I’d be completely screwed if this bastard-child of Fiat/Chrysler bit the dust.
Thank you for answering! It makes a bit of sense in your context. Maybe go see if they’ll give you a sweet deal on one?
There are multiple issues with that: all related to money.
If I didn’t have money issues, I probably would’ve ordered one by now. But I’m not that worried. Come next September, I’ll make my last car payment on my current loan, so I can start saving money every month.
With that previous hypothetical, it’d make owning one much easier.
Crap I forgot the Hornet exists. Also, look at the price and the other list. Make the Hornet cheaper than a Kia Rio and they may sell more.
I am surprised that there are this many Dodge Hornets anywhere, since I haven’t seen a single one.
I see more Masarattis than Hornets as I see them often and also have never seen a Hornet.
I saw three Wagoneers yesterday, so people in the area are open to overpriced Stellantis products. Still, no Hornets.
I saw one in a parking lot recently and was surprised how great it looked. Had no idea it was so expensive though.
I wonder how long until Fiat regrets their Chrysler purchase and dumps it. Here’s what they should do; sell Ram to Nissan, sell just only the Jeep Wrangler to Rivian so they can BEV it to supply the USPS with a Jeep EV, and shutter/kill off the rest of the company/brands/models for a giant tax write-off. Then exit the US market.
If you said this about PSA’s purchase of Fiat, I would have agreed with you. The only reason Chrysler is in the boat its in today is Fiat’s mismanagement of Chrysler. They have owned Chrysler since 2009/2010 and they bungled the execution of both the Dart and the 200 and said screw it and didn’t offer those brands anything else other than a rebadged Alfa for 12 years. The Pacifica came out and then they left it to rot and didn’t bring a sister Dodge Caravan despite that being the best selling minivan at the time.
Meanwhile they proceeded to bring out a bunch of new Jeep products that probably should have been badged Chrysler or Dodge. That Wagoneer looks nothing like what people wanted in a Wagoneer, and can’t cut the trails like Jeep is supposed to. That would have been one mighty fine Chrysler flagship SUV though. Meanwhile the legacy Chrysler vehicles were printing money and were left with no updates. How old are the L cars or the Durango? Someone didn’t get the memo that you’re supposed to update your cars.
I think there is a lot correct in what you say. Mopar is struggling because of Mopar mismanagement. I really don’t understand some of the decisions that were made along the way.
Jeep people buy jeeps. But the Wagoneer doesn’t even have the word Jeep on it. Its not a Jeep for jeep people. Its a jeep for…Escalade people? Watch the launch video they made for the wagoneer. It specifically says that “Jeep is outdoors, adventurous, blah blah blah.” Then it goes on to say that that is NOT who the wagoneer is for? Then why the hell is it a Jeep. And while I’m bitching, who’s stupid idea was it to make a short and long wheelbase Wagoneer, but use the GRAND name to reference TRIM!!!! Man this pisses me off because its so blind and stupid. Grand Wagoneer = big one. Wagoneer = Short one. Perfect, and way the hell better than L.
Its sad to me that the Challenger can’t make it past basically one generation in each life its given. Odd too. But I understand that major interior updates took place in 2015 and made all the Charger/Challenger/300 interiors much nicer places to live.
And if they need a CUV, then Jeep needs to buy the damn Jimny and sell them here.
$50,000 for a non-luxury small crossover is insane, especially for one that’s only mediocre at best. Yeah, that’s an up-level trim example, but I just can’t wrap my head around someone wanting a Hornet badly enough to shell that much out
Dodge just needs to come up with something to create more buzz about the Hornet.
I hope Dodge finds something to take the sting out of failing to sell these things.
If you paid me at least $59,720 with no strings attached, I would buy a Hornet, even the one listed in your article here.
I am aware the one in the article is $10,000 less than my required fee, because I would be seen driving a Hornet for a brief period until I sold it, for nowhere near $49,720.
That’s what it would take, for me at least.
I am surprised to hear there is a 517-day supply of Dodge Hornets. I’m not as much surprised that it is selling slowly as I am surprised that a vehicle called the Dodge Hornet exists at all. I was not aware this vehicle existed until I read the headline. I don’t recall ever seeing one of these on the roads. It could be because no one has bought one, but I presume it is more likely the vehicle is so bland and dismal that my subconscious regarded it as a generic transportation box unworthy of a conscious thought. I also don’t recall seeing an advertisement for this vehicle. I presume they have made ads for this vehicle, but again, it is so bland that even the best on Madison Avenue can’t even come up with an ad memorable enough for me to be consciously aware of its existence. Is it any wonder the Hornet is not a big seller?
This would make a great getaway car, though. If I am not consciously aware this car exists, I presume the average person is similarly unaware and would be unable to tell the federales that the perp is fleeing in a Hornet.
I am genuinely curious – is there anyone else reading this website who has never heard of the Hornet until today?
there was an intensely dumb Super Bowl (or at least Super Bowl adjacent) commercial for it’s release earlier this year that they then ran for a while. other then that I’ve not seen any out on the road.
I saw one at an auto show and was not impressed at all.
I just found a few ads for the Hornet on youtube. They are all kind of absurd, which suggests even the advertisers know this is a vehicle with few selling points. A good car doesn’t need ridiculous ads.
This kind of piqued my curiosity so I went through other manufacturers to see if there are other cars I am unaware of. I found a few Infinitis with alphanumeric names that I didn’t recognize and the Subaru Solterra. Otherwise, I was at least aware of all other vehicles I came across. I assumed there were many forgettable cars other than the Hornet, but that does not appear to be the case. Dodge should probably give up on this one.
Clearly you have never seen the ad for the Lambo Huracan Sterrato. Or you think that is a bad car, I guess.
I wasn’t aware it existed until I read this article. Haven’t seen one or heard about the model until now.
A 517-day supply? That’s gotta sting. If only there was something they could do to generate some buzz…
I think Dodge might need to sweeten the deal if they mean bees-ness.
I’m disappointed by the lack of puns here.
Folks, it’s not like I was saying Dodge was pollen teeth on the Hornet since they clearly don’t have a Plan Bee on how to push them out the door.
Even though the rest of this comments section is a hive of activity, swarming with opinions.
I can’t speak to the larger market conditions, but I sat in a Hornet at an auto show and it was *trash*. It was all decked out in that shitty, GM-esque rental car plastic and buttons and they expect people to pay $30k for it? It’s closer to a Honda Fit than a CRV
That’s a badge engineered Alfa Tonale, so there’s a more expensive version of the Hornet.
It’s almost like no one is paying attention that cars cost too much for what they are.
Sooner or later, manufacturers are going to have to realize that price elasticity of demand is a thing. They in bad denial currently. Someone is going to take a loss. And consumers can’t keep buying $100K vehicles. So that means it’s dealers with too much inventory and manufacturers with rising labor costs and too much inventory.
After the last few years of greed, I can’t say that I’m bothered by that.
Nobody’s going to budge on prices as long as banks are willing to write 84-month notes.
They said that with the subprime housing fiasco too. But they ended up budging.
It’s much easier to repo a car than to foreclose on a house.
How many times are we going to do this “gas prices low, buy big, inefficient cars then gas gets super high and we buy small efficient/hybrids” cycle? Not to mention vehicle cost, I completely understand why a Kia Rio sells a lot faster than most of the gas guzzling FCA products
At least twice a decade until ICE is gone.
Gas isn’t even that bad right now. It’s the eye watering monthly payments thanks to high sales prices and high interest rates. The same net effect will be achieved though.
IDK gas and groceries seem to be the two things I hear people complain about anymore. In CA I paid $4.60 for regular just this morning
Dear Toyota: Screw your artificially restricted inventory on popular models.
I guessed that Toyota was going to continue their restricted inventory practices, over a year and a half ago on /r/cars and got over 200 downvotes. It was stunning.
Honda and Toyota both do this. They have an incredibly cynical approach to enthusiasts. They come up with something great, then add $5-10,000 to the price (you will not convince me that the CTR needs to be $45,000 goddamn dollars) then put a hard cap on how many they’ll make, then they use a stupid allocation system and wink at their dealerships who add huge markups on top of the fact that the cars are already overpriced.
The issue is that people still buy them. CTRs wouldn’t be selling for $55,000 right now if JDM bros weren’t lining up around the block to buy them. GR Corollas are still going for over asking a year later. It’s ridiculous and while I wouldn’t say Toyota and Honda are the main reason ADMs exist they’ve definitely played a role in making them as widespread as they are.
Here’s my problem with the Hornet/Tonale, which I actually looked into getting: its MPG is pretty crappy, at 29. It’s actually less fuel-efficient than its stablemate Pacifica PHEV despite the Pacifica being a minivan. FuelEconomy.gov comparison
Man, the restraint one has to have to not call a “Tonale” a “Toenail” in conversation…
I have never not called it the toenail, IRL
Even 15k is too much for a new Chrysler product LOL
No way I’d be seen driving a Hornet. It’s way too WASPy.
Heyyyyoooooo!
Taking a notice at the Maserati Levante supply above, it may be worth noting what’s going on with the Maserati MC20. It’s becoming sort of a meme that people who bought them for $310K and put under 600 miles on them can’t get $205K a year later.
Yes, a PrimaSerie went for a chunk, but the number of unsold at big discounts is real:
https://bringatrailer.com/maserati/mc20/
I had the local Ferrari dealer owner had me swing by to drive two now, since he’s offering $75,000 on the hood of them. Now, it’s the prettiest car on the market, but it’s very GTish (albeit quick in a straight line) overall. However being a mid-engine with a twin-turbo V, there’s no rear cargo area, so it has limited cargo capacity. The Nettuno has great power delivery (a bit spiky, which is fun), but sounds… eh. The interior is fine, though there’s a few finishing bits which are odd, and at that price range (and exterior) the market just expects more wowie zowie for $250-320K.
The bath people are taking on these is insane. That price segment in general has tightened their grip on their wallets lately too, though I think super car looks with GTish performance and lacking GT practicality had this almost born into the grave.
Not exactly apples to apples, but I saw a Lucid Grand Touring with a 154K sticker and less than 1,000 miles listed at $79,999 over the weekend.
Not sure who ate it worse there, the first owner, or the poor dealer stuck trying to unload it. Almost surely both.
Lucid? Try all super premium BEVs.
They’re all in the 55-60% of MSRP range at auction for cars a year old or less, which means trade-in values are potentially sub-50% of sticker. Porsche’s Taycan is doing better (60-70% range, depending on trim), but also pretty awful.
The Rivian R1T/R1S is avoiding it because there’s still demand for them, and because they do have some cheaper trim levels which is what sells more.
Though yes, dealers are having a hard time. Audi RS e-Trons have $50K on the hood right now. Mercedes EQSes are $35-40K on the hood now.
I’ll just never understand the mind of someone willing to take an $80,000 bath after 800 miles.
I am surprised the Hummer is so low. That one seemed like it had some real hype and momentum behind it, even discounting the $100K over early adopters. Hell, there are still dealers trying for over sticker around here on new ones.
$189/mile on the latest MC20 coupe on BAT. Just… oof.
I know the mind, because I tried to avoid selling to those people during my time in high-end sports cars and exotics. People who had no idea what they wanted, or people who bought purely with their heart and ignored their head. I helped so many people dodge that bullet.
At those price points you need to drive a ton of stuff to know exactly what you want, exactly what you’re getting into, etc. Without it, it’s always a bit of a gamble as to whether it meets your expectations, because you don’t yet have clearly defined requirements.
$250K+ for me is, “Drive it till I die” or blue chip cars only. Nothing else.
$250K is more than my total collection of cars, ever owned, will ever be worth, even including everything I buy up to the day I die.
Same here, hence my point. I can’t personally conceive spending $250K+ and going, “yeah naw” 9 months later to struggle to lose $100K+ on it. Even for people who, “have the money”, they feel it.
Yeah, thats freaking nuts. Thats gotta be Crypto Bros who are ok with those kinds of losses. Experienced investors and old money don’t usually go for that kind of thing.
Not crypto bros.
You honestly see the same phenomenon the most with old men who have had Corvette posters for 30-50 years, waited until the kids were gone, etc. and have driven only NPC-mobiles their entire life. They finally get their new Corvette and for many reasons it’s not what they wanted. They get rid of it very quickly and take the (comparatively modest) hit.
People buy these kind of cars, “heart over head” very often, with no prior experience. Then they come to grips with differences in seating position, ground clearance (big one!), the vast difference in control responses and weight, noise, NVH, etc., limited daily usability, afraid they’re “showing off” to people they know, operating costs, etc.
That’s just them! What if a spouse is weighing in too?
I steer a lot of people nowadays (I’m out of sales) to renting the car they want for an entire weekend on Turo. Live with it for 2-3 days, use it for everything, not just a quick jaunt. Come to grips with all the differences before they burn tens of thousands if not a hundred thousand dollars.
Cars are avatars, but some people don’t want to deal with the reality that comes with the image they merely think a car is.
Another great, more normal example is the E30 M3. I steer people towards E30 325i’s all the time, and many of the ones who ignore me get rid of the M3 for a 325i. Why? The M3 is great if you’re going all out, but for most people it’s “too much” when used as a conveyance used to do normal stuff in. For most people, a 325i is what they want. Only the die hards getting up at 4AM for a backroad drive keep the M3.
Thanks for sharing that! Very interesting perspective on a subject I have really only observed from the outside.
Our work (no mercedes franchise in the group) was getting heaps of the new (2019 on) A class, CLA etc traded in only a couple of months after they launched here in Aus, I asked the sales manager and he said it was because people really hated the seats and could only bear them for a few months. We still get them and they are usually less than 6 months old.
I looked at my local CJDR dealer to see how many Hornets they had (only a few, and all over $50k), and they have a used Hummer EV with 1200 miles on it for just shy of $150k. Their sister GMC store also has brand new Hummer EVs with potential discounts (it has the “Call for Price” thing with stacked discounts above it). I have a feeling the CJDR paid a premium trade in price a few months back and is now going to sit on that Hummer EV for as long as they can hoping to at least break even.
It surprises me to hear the Hummer EV is doing so terribly. I mean, it shouldn’t do well being so heavy and inefficient even for an EV, but nonetheless it’s still an EV, right? I feel like there has to be a market for it.
If I had to choose between (for example) a Model S or a Hummer EV I’d at least consider the Hummer (would need to do more research on both, but still–not an instant choice).
The Hummer EV had many well documented issues. First, water intrusion issues, not just around the roof panels, but also the A pillasr and into the battery packs. GM also had Ultium battery pack issues unrelated to the water sealing, where there were fires in the Bolt.
Then there’s the efficiency issues. A fair number of reviewers were really only getting 70-75% of the advertised range, whereas many BEVs (certainly not all) tend to get around the advertised range.
Then it’s just wide — 86.7 inches before the mirrors. That’s 5.5 in. wider than larger half-tons or something like a Tahoe, which aren’t small vehicles. Something smaller like a CR-V is over a foot narrower.
Last, it starts at $98,850 before taxes, and go as high as $180K.
Then there’s the last thing I always talk about, which is the “early HDTV problem.” What’s the long-term support on these going to be? Is this a novelty you drive for a few years, take a bath on and that’s that, because dealing with it long term is going to require an extremely invested enthusiast? It’s currently looking that way. The flips are long gone and they’re very hard to move on lots now. To dealers it’s lot poison like nearly every other super-premium BEV. Buyers are predominantly looking for stuff in the $35-60K range, and there’s a huge segment of the market looking for stuff sub-$30. Moreover, used Teslas can be had dang near as low as $20K, and stuff like the Ford Mach E is down to $25-26K used already and will be there soon enough.
$100K+ novelty trucks only have so many buyers.
Thanks for the info! Makes sense.
When I’ve been visiting my friends a few weekends each month for several months now in a Philly exurb, the one dealership has a Hummer EV prominently out front. That surprised me. I figured supply would be so low that every example would be snatched immediately (whether it would be used or not is a different story…).
That seems to be how it used to be, but the only Hummer EVs I see anymore are sitting out in front of dealerships. There was a Hummer EV in my neighborhood, and now that person drives a Model S Plaid.
Remember pre pandemic since the dawn of time high priced vehicles took a massive depreciation bath pretty much once they had been owned by someone. If they depreciated normally, noone would buy one because they would still be expensive and people shopping at that end wanted a new car, not a used or cpo or whatever, and supply was there so they could get one. I think it would be interesting to see how many of these cars are still selling new. Fair enough though there were silly dealer mark ups that are exacerbating the losses though.
Vehicles like an S Class didn’t depreciate because they had a previous owner, but because having the most recent version of the most recent model commanded a premium because of the implicit status signal. You want to be seen in the latest refresh of the latest S Class, not a 6 year old one because it’s not the latest and greatest. Moreover, fewer people have the latest version, so you appear to have something, “more exclusive”, and the ability to get something with limited access.
Ignore the fact that those vehicles (Bentley Continental comes first to mind) are produced in enough volume that “exclusivity” is limited to a handful of months of the newest iteration. You know how many Contis are in Los Angeles? Waaaay too many. Hence the depreciation.
After that, operating costs are the largest influencing factor, as well as other pragmatic things like usability.
The Big QuestionWhat do I have to do to get you, or anyone, into a Dodge Hornet today?
Make it more affordable. If I’m being honest, as lifelong fan of Dodge and Mopar, I would head over the Chevy dealer for a new Traxx after seeing the sticker price on a Hornet. It makes no sense.
What do I have to do to get you, or anyone, into a Dodge Hornet today?
Given the price, the abysmal efficiency for the segment (29 combined for a PHEV of that size?), and the lackluster reliability of Stellantis’s other PHEV, the Pacifica…it’d take a lot to get people into the Hornet.
It doesn’t have the draw and cool factor of a muscle car, and it doesn’t have the utility of the crossovers the price puts it in competition with. It needs a significant price reduction, and that may not be enough.
Something with this stat is clearly wrong. On cars dot com alone there are that many listed just within 200 miles of me. 18,000+ nationwide.
You do seem to be able to get a good deal on them though. Plenty of $10K discounts or better.
Yep. That model is rarer than it should be though. I’m wondering if the classic Power Wagon is somehow being production restricted because of fleet EPA averages? Dunno… spitballing..
I don’t believe HD trucks count against those averages. After all, they aren’t rated for fuel economy in the first place.
True, but in July this year, NHTSA proposed a CAFE modification for HDs and vans that takes effect in a few years. I wonder if knowing that’s coming is chilling the HD market?
If anything, I think that would spur both manufacturers and consumers to get more sold now.
I know it made me think about picking one up before they disappear. I’m really waiting for the RamCharger though, if the truth be told.
FCA simply needs to apply the Hellcat approach to the Hornet.
Weren’t murder hornets a concern a few years ago here in the states? Well then, obviously it’s time to create the new Murder Hornet trim level. Think of all the fun that could be done with silly trim-level names, vinyl graphics, mascots, etc.
It’s time for a return of the Dodge Super Bee. I have spoken.
Edit: Well apparently Dodge released a special edition Charger; but who could keep up with all their special editions lately. It seems like there was a new one every week.
Well yeah, but it’s ALWAYS time for the return of the Super Bee.
Dodge Hornet?
Who wouldn’t want to buy an Italian Hybrid CUV with an automatic transmission maintained by Dodge dealers who haven’t ever seen a Hybrid CUV in their dealerships……
There’s a higher supply of Mavericks than I thought there would be but I bet you that the overwhelming majority of said Mavericks are the ecoboost variants. Ford STILL can’t meet Maverick Hybrid demand…
The dealers near me are starting to get regular allocation Maverick hybrids. Not many, but enough that they say they’re selling them at MSRP again now. They all seem to have added accessories, but the full-on markups are going away.
I just cancelled my order right after they scheduled it to be built in January. They didn’t mind because they still sell fast, but they told me no more markups, so they aren’t going to make an extra $2500 by selling it on the lot like I thought.
Lucky you, I still see a lot of them going over MSRP.
In my area (Oklahoma) even used ones are marked up over MSRP. The dealers aren’t even trying to hide the markups, either. They show you the original Monroney for the used car in the online ad, and then show you the price, which is usually $3-5k over the original sticker.
Even though the new ones are down to MSRP here, the used ones still reflect that 3-5k markup. I think they overpaid and will really try to still make a profit. I’m hoping they lose money on them.
I’m just saying that the winds are shifting. And I think that Ford could really cut into those markups on the 2024 models when they announce the 2025s. If they offer more options or bring back the ones they’ve removed, I think a lot of people will wait.
Came here to say this — no way there’s a 31-day supply of Mav hybrids. Those have to be Ecoboost numbers!