If there’s one thing that’s certain in this topsy-turvy automotive landscape, it’s that EVs aren’t anywhere near their technological peak yet. This week, CATL unveiled a new variety of battery pack in Shanghai that promises to even out the time gap between DC fast charging an EV and refuelling a combustion-powered vehicle. It sounds great and should put some pressure on BYD, but as always, there are a few asterisks to keep in mind.
The supplier’s second-generation Shenxing Superfast Charging Battery uses cells rated at 12C, allowing it to support DC fast charging at the insane rate of 1.3 megawatts. CATL claims this battery pack can add 320 miles of range on a mere five-minute charge.
That’s great, but 1.3 megawatts is going to require some serious infrastructure investment. Most range-topping DC fast chargers globally tap out at 350 kilowatts, just 26.9 percent of what CATL’s latest Shenxing battery pack can pull. Even in China, megawatt charging is rare, with BYD only rolling out the first 500 of its megawatt charging stations earlier this month.
Secondly, it’s hard to say how well that 320-mile claim matches up with the EPA range we’re used to because China uses an entirely different range rating system called CLTC. With lower speeds and different testing cycles than we see in North America, CLTC range can be significantly greater than EPA range, so that 320 mile claim could be less than 250 miles. Still a crazy amount of range to add in five minutes, but it might not be enough to actually drive from Manhattan to Burlington, Vt. on a five-minute charge. Also, the final number will likely depend on what vehicle the battery pack’s installed in, as different EVs have different efficiency profiles.
However, this is one of only three battery technologies CATL unveiled this week. The second is the Freevoy dual-power EV battery, which offers a variety of technologies including sodium-ion, lithium iron phosphate, nickel manganese cobalt, and self-forming anodes. When configured with a combination of traditional NCM cells and NCM self-forming anode cells, it promises to offer a claimed 932 miles of range when fitted to a full-size sedan, likely on the CLTC cycle. Even with a 35 percent haircut, that’s still more than 600 miles of range, fully comparable to any number of combustion-powered vehicles. However, the pack itself is enormous, at a claimed 180 kW.
Then there’s CATL’s sodium-ion battery, which is especially interesting because it’s targeting severe cold-weather performance, a historical weakness of EVs. If you live in the upper midwest or Montana or upstate New York, you’re probably used to some serious temperature swings throughout the year, from way below zero to absolutely roasting. This battery’s said to help in the former conditions, with a claim of retaining 90 percent of usable power at 40 below zero, meaning at 10 percent state-of-charge, it won’t derate even if Jack Frost is threatening to pull a Face/Off. Theoretically, this should mean it also has a wide optimal window for DC fast charging, although without further details on that, it’s hard to say what it’ll be capped at. We do know it claims to offer 175 Wh per kilogram, energy density on par with some lithium iron phosphate chemistries.
What’s more, it’s possible we’ll see some of these technologies in the Western hemisphere. Ford uses CATL cells, as does Tesla, as does Mercedes-Benz. The future of EVs is going to be pretty cool, provided infrastructure can keep up with cell advancements.
Top graphic images: CATL
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“That’s great, but 1.3 megawatts is going to require some serious infrastructure investment. ”
Since we barely have any charging infrastructure in the US, we’re in great shape to put this in place. The investment part may be an issue, however.
Roadside nuclear power plants/charger stations would certainly be interesting. They could even do themed restaurants.
I don’t want to set the world on fiiiiire….
When do we get issued our Pip-Boys?
Tiny tokamaks everywhere!
I know this is a joke, but the nuclear industry is looking at it. Take this video of a nuclear plant in a container. 1.2 MW. This would produce 28,800 kw-hr of power in 24 hours. Combine with batteries so the reactor can be running at full power and the batteries can do fast charging, this would charge about 300 cars in a day.
If it is like most Nuclear start ups, the #1 party of interest in the technology with the pockets to move it from a flashy video to an actual thing is the Chinese government.
Thing is that nothing in the video is stuff that hasn’t been done at some scale or another. My first boss ran a helium gas cooled research reactor in the 70s and had graphite balls from that reactor on his desk to show off.
https://youtu.be/9cc1j-MbVVA
There will be a buffer battery for something like two cars with a small grid connection, and then a natural gas generator turns on after than. Probably need a backup to the grid anyway if you want people to be able to evacuate during an emergency.
As someone who’s made that exact drive – or at least with north Jersey as the south point, stay there and take transit to Manhattan – count on at least 2 pee breaks and if charging stations are available it’ll come out even because you can’t pump gas and relieve yourself at the same time.
The rate of progress on EVs feels like the 90s PC era, when anything you bought was virtually obsolete a year later. And the digital SLR race in the ‘aughts. And now the mirrorless cameras.
I don’t know when it’s going to get to “good enough.” I bought the first Canon R mirrorless camera not long after it came out. Six years ago, or so. And it’s good enough to make prints bigger than I ever make.
Yeah. I could buy an R5 or R5II and it would be even better.
Compared to what I used as a newspaper photographer in the late 70s, and a TV news photographer through 1999, my freaking iPhone 14 outperforms them all. For a fraction of the cost. (Other than the range of lenses)
Technologically, it’s a great time to be alive.
And sometimes it feels like being in the middle of Alvin Toffler’s Future Shock.
12C is five minute charging independent of the battery size. It has to do with how C ratings work. Each C is how many “capacities” of the battery you can charge in an hour. A 12C battery can be charged 12 times in one hour, or in 5 minutes.
The neat thing is that that’s probably the sustained rate, and burst rates are usually higher, so it would make for a craaaazy muscle car battery.
12C is actually the peak/burst rate in this case, not the base rate (probs lost in translation). It’s probably 5C+ overall from 10-80%. An old Ioniq 5 is 3C peak (238kW) and 2.1C through 10-80% (20 mins).
Very few companies ever claim a ‘true’ overall C-rate from 0-100%, as 0-5% and 90-100% are always quite slow to charge through. The 10C peak BYD Han L does 6C through 10-70% (6 mins), and ‘true’ 3C 0-100% (20 mins).
Just re-read that last part. Batteries usually output at waaaaayyy higher C-rates than they charge. For example, the Xiaomi SU7 Ultra can output at 14C peak, or 8.5C at low charge, while it can only do 5.2C charging. 5-10C power output is fairly ordinary, look at hybrid batteries for example.
Need to update the info, individual chargers can only do 300-400kw, but most stations they’re putting in the US have 4-5 chargers, so that’s already rated for over a megawatt at the site.
On top of that there’s charger companies creating megawatt chargers(MCS) for trucking, but could also have them for public cars.
Electronics move fast and this is primarily electronics, if the power is already there, just update the hardware at the site and blam-o we’re charging EVs as fast as gas cars.
The power isn’t there. In some locations during peak solar output there may be, but otherwise power is a problem.
Production-grade sodium-ion batteries are very exciting just from a supply standpoint, but their low-temp performance is going to be a major advantage for grid storage as well as automobiles.
I’m more interested in their lesser tendency to burn uncontrollably. For storage, especially mass storage, that’s probably the worst sticking point with Li ion.
I just can’t get over the feeling that super fast charging is the least important piece of EV advancment. It represents such a small percentage of uses given the fact that charging anyplace but at home tends to be more expensive per mile than a decent ICE vehicle. Plus, as noted in the article the infrustructure cost of super fast charging means it simply won’t be happening anytime in the near future.
While it is great to research and push what is possible increasing the amount of clean power generation is far more important. Not that that is going to happen in the foreseable future either.
Perception is more important than reality. The anti-EVs people want the exact same experience as their current ICE. Henry Ford’s faster horse quote.
Regarding renewable energy, I always liked the line “the Stone Age didn’t end because they ran out of rocks.”
The sooner EVs can advertise ridiculous charge speeds, the sooner they’ll end up in consumers hands, and the sooner comsumers will realize they’re not really that necessary. It’s a roundabout win, in my opinion.
Also, the infrastructure cost depends, as idle chargers don’t consume energy and batteries fall off their peak kW quickly. While 2x1000kW stations will consume about as much as 6x350kW, the 1000kW will come off their peak faster, and will be used for less time (I’m excluding 80%+ charging which is still quite slow). When talking about 1000kW stations with at least 4 dispensers, I think it doesn’t end up much different than a 350kW or 150kW arrays with equal total power (12x350kW, 27x150kW). Also, if 1000kW plug has to derate because 2 people started charging at the exact same time, it’s not the end of the world, 500kW is still plenty.
I’m no electrical engineer, so I can’t speak to the details at all. But even getting 350kw stations deployed isn’t going to be easy in the current environment. I also don’t think the people who just don’t want an EV “because” are going to change their minds with faster charging. Charging times are just them rationalizing anyway. They can find another reason if that one goes away.
Plus, if we really wanted to maximize our reduction of CO we should focus on PHEVs based on the cost/impact.
That’s fair. I think there’s still a decent chunk of people in the US who aren’t ideologically or irrationally opposed to EVs. I’ve been a proponent for PHEVs before it was cool, but I assumed they were still a lil worse environmentally than EVs; I guess the grid proportion and required battery sizes tip it over the edge for the US compared to EU & China. The only problem I have with them is that users may not plug them in. Unfortunately PHEVs are kinda difficult to make packaging-wise, as the engine and exhaust take space away from the electronics and battery; side exit exhausts would genuinely be a boon for PHEV design.
I had the opposite issue with my PHEV(2013 Volt), I rarely filled it up, so much so that the engine was turning on occasionally just for a maintenance cycle, so I realized I really didn’t need the gas engine complexity and went to a full ev.
It is a good transition vehicle though for people to evaluate their individual use case. Sadly a lot of PHEVs are half efforts that focus more on the hybrid than the EV so most don’t get the full evaulation of an EV.
Your scenario is the exact one I’m hoping for when I advocate for PHEVs. Are you comfortable with a lower range EV too (is 200-250mi acceptable or is 300mi required)?
Oh yeah actually my first EV had barely the 30 miles(2000 Ford Ranger Electric) that the Volt had, and I did experience the range anxieties, but then got a Bolt EV for commuting with over 200 miles and it’s never a concern, and we’ve gone on pretty decent day trips with it. Now we’re leasing a Prologue that charges even faster and so not even really a thought.
We’re down to just 1 gas vehicle and that’s the motorcycle, not having to fill up gas regularly, or oil changes, or brake pads is really nice.
The main caveat is definitely should have a home charger, if you can have a home charger then it’s all gold. No home charger option, probably best to just stick to a hybrid, maybe a plug in if you have access to an outlet near the car and it’s approved by whoever owns that outlet.
The ICE engine typically weighs less and uses fewer, more recyclable materials than the battery added to full BEVs over PHEVs. The packaging is a bit trickier, but it isn’t significant. The additional battery takes up far more space and material than the exhaust or other ICE items on a PHEV. This is a big reason they tend to have a smaller footprint.
The issue becomes more acute if we start burning more coal, as it sounds like we unfortunately might. The fact that some people might not plug them in isn’t a net loss since those people are the same who wouldn’t have purchased a full EV anyway. It would be much better to get as many PHEVs on the street so that as they move from owner to owner, they will tend to decrease the impact of the nation as a whole.
“Also, the infrastructure cost depends, as idle chargers don’t consume energy”
The commodity charge is just one part of the price. There is also the capacity charge in addition to the fixed service charge. I looked it up for my city and it is $12.01 per kW of max demand plus a $120 monthly fee, so it costs $12,130 to charge the first car of the month at 1 MW, plus $0.09 per kWh.
Expect buffer batteries and throttling if multiple people charge simultaneously. Plus higher prices than current fast charging.
Is there an “h” missing on that?
How big will that charger cable have to be to handle current like that? Is a little old man/little old lady going to be able to move that around to plug into their car?
Liquid cooled ones are getting better, and the NACS connectors are easier to manage than CCS. If just the voltage increases instead of amps then the cables can manage. Like if the car could do 1600v instead of like 800v or 400v cars today, it’d only need 600 amps to get to 960kw charging, which existing cables can already do.
Not sure if those were the same battery, but still, that is over 2200 pounds of battery.
My car in total weighs a little less than 3000lbs (when I’m not in it).
Definitely not the same battery. The 175 Wh/kg uses cheap Na-ion cells, while the 180kWh dual-energy pack uses Li-NMC cells which are anodeless, improving the density somewhere beyond the current ~250Wh/kg typical of standard NMC nowadays.
This sort of pack is supposed to be for already ridiculous full size luxury cars, so a (conservative estimate) 1600lb isn’t awful.
500 highway miles in subzero temps is my threshold for buying an EV, so it’s encouraging to see that research is still progressing toward that goal.
What available in the US passenger car gets that? The viper you have in the picture definitely doesn’t do that.
You aren’t going to believe this, but I don’t use the Viper to transport my family in the winter.
My truck can go 600+ miles in any temp without refueling, my van can’t but can add 350 miles of range in 5 minutes, making range concerns irrelevant.
oof I try to take stretch and potty breaks every 2-3 hours. 600+ miles is like 10-12 hours.
Well, at 75-80 mph it’s more like 8 hours.
But I don’t usually do it with zero stops, I just prefer the stops to be very short. An EV that could really add 300 miles in 5 minutes would be just as acceptable to me as one with 500 miles of real range.
Thanks, glad you answered and didn’t get riled as I realized after the fact someone else would. Out of curiosity are they diesels? I think I have been driving too many old cars if I think 500 miles on a tank is extreme.
No, my truck has a 48 gallon tank, so even 13 mpg on the highway goes a long way.
The same truck in a diesel would go close to 1000 miles on a tank if you kept your speed reasonable.
My Subaru goes well over 500 miles on a tank. But range is essentially unlimited because filling up is so fast and convenient. You do t have to plan your trips around a fill up, but you do with an EV. I think the focus on EV’s is misguided. Hybrids offer real efficient y benefits and minimal cost. And if your EV has a “range” of 300 miles, it’s not really 300 miles. It’s 10-90% at best. EV’s are still in town cars unless you’re very well prepared and plan your down time.
You guys simply move the goal posts anytime EVs get within a reasonable level of competency. Next time you’ll say the car has to go 1000 miles and charge up in 2 mins.
As someone who has lived with several hybrids and EVs I’m really trying to understand why you think its critical to have such a huge range. Because in reality you- the driver- and your kids- are not going to last even remotely close to 500 miles without needing to use the restroom, eat, or take a break. If you think about it, its more like 150-200 miles that the average family would need to pull over.
Where am I going with this? Its that in your current vehicular lineup you would need to stop anyway. And often times its for a lot longer than 10-15 minutes. And as such, there are a plethora of charging stations that will charge your car easily while you eat lunch, stretch your legs and whatever. Sounds crazy I know but that is what a lot of people I know who own EVs do and its…. not a big deal. And that’s what cars that have far less range too.
Look back at literally years of my posts going back to the old site, I’ve never wavered from this same standard.
I drive ~480 miles across the Upper Midwest from my house to my parents house multiple times per year. Obviously this can take place in any temperature from -20 to +100.
We usually make the 7-8 hour trip with one or two 5-10 minute stops for food and gas along the way. That isn’t doable in any EV. It’s doable in every gas car I’ve ever owned that has space for a family.
I have come to recognize that some people (usually EV defenders) claim to enjoy traveling leisurely and taking hour long breaks every 3 hours. That is not and will never be how I travel.
I ask for nothing more from an EV than I ask for every gas car I own. Make this trip with minimal delay and stops, no matter the weather. If this isn’t your standard, that’s fine. Buy an EV if it suits you. But claiming I’m inconsistent or moving goalposts is not accurate. And I have never said or implied you (or anyone) need to buy vehicles based on my standards, so please don’t assume that I will compromise my life to buy them based on yours.
I’m just impressed by the stamina, any trip with my wife and we’re stopping at least every couple hours.
When I was young I would routinely do a 600 mile trip in my Dodge Neon, just myself, stopping once for gas and no bathroom break(parents lived that far from each other, I’d alternate holidays with one or the other).
I am not young any more and also not in such a rush, stop, get some snacks and soda, recharge, stretch the legs, maybe get some scratchers, and then back at it.
This is exactly what I expect from an EV, and also the way I travel. My longest stop on the 500 miles to Denver is gas/pee for 15 minutes.
Nah…. 500 was the old requirement. Now that some EVs are meeting that…. you guys need to up it to 1000
I’m not saying I need 500 miles of range, just that I don’t take a break longer than 15 minutes on that long of a trip.
First of all- I’m not an ” EV Defender” as I own an array of cars including a few gas guzzlin’ ones.
But what you said above confirms what I suggested. That indeed- you do make stops on your trips. And with the time you gave me that means that surprise-surprise, you would be easily able to charge whatever EV you had at the one of 300,000 charging stations that are currently available.
So what you are really saying is that no- you don’t want to change anything. I get it. Its weird to go to a WalMart, Target, Grocery store, McDonald’s, AppleBees, Cracker Barrel or any other location that doesn’t pump gas and have filthy bathrooms to just plug in a car for 15 mins. But that’s precisely what many of us who have these do.
I am NOT at all saying you have to drive or own an EV. Take the kids in the Viper to Florida for all I care.
OTOH, We’ve taken a few road trips in our Chevy Equinox EV and oh no… we decided to get coffee and take a pee break. Pulled in, plugged in the car… and about 15 mins later, with coffee and emptied bowls were back on the road. But I guess you saving that extra 5-10 minutes makes it TOTALLY WORTH IT.
Granted thats pretty different from going to a gas station and spending maybe 5-10 mins pumping $4 gas and hoping you don’t get a communicable disease from the bathroom. And in fact, as an investor with a small position with Royal Dutch Shell, BP, and Exxon-Mobile I encourage you to keep on buying gas as it helps with my retirement.
Call me whatever you want. But the experience I have versus you isn’t night and day.
PS:
Oh- and this is something those who want a million mile range and 2 min charge times never consider: What about all of the other times that you drive and gas up your cars? Because with us we just get home and plug in the car. That takes all of about 5 seconds. So while you might be saving a few minutes over me in a road trip, I OTOH have saved probably….. HOURS not sitting with my thumb up my ass waiting in line for the next gas pump, having to get out of the car in whatever weather. Nobody ever brings up that going to gas stations is not only not fun but a waste of time ( and money )
Congrats on your superiority or whatever the point of this post was.
Not sure why my criteria for buying a new vehicle for myself is something you felt the need to weigh in on, not once, but twice. Regardless of if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to me.
Glad an EV is an option for you. I wish you many happy miles in it.
Congrats on not understanding what I wrote. Nice little jab at trying to get ” even” by once again making me out to be something else. But hey- we can’t all be on top of our mental games all the time…
And if you don’t like people weighing in? The don’t leave any comments here.
Sorry your feelings were hurt…
Forgot about the “while towing a 35000 pound 50ft trailer uphill”
In a blizzard, uphill both ways does apply here.
I have 2 EVs. An older one that takes at least 1/3 longer than the newer car does to DC fast charge and has 100 miles less range at full. These days I usually take the older car on road trips because the newer car literally charges too fast and doesn’t need to stop as often as we do when we are road tripping. Half the time we have to rush meal/bathroom/coffee breaks because the newer car is done charging too soon. When I was younger I could drive a lot longer without stopping but now I can’t. 90% of the time I’m charging at home and love not having to go to a gas station to fuel up. I just plug in when I get home. There are still cases where someone is doing long trips all the time and a fossil fuel car or super fast charging EV might be good but I’m not really interested and I’m never buying another fossil fuel vehicle.
The CATL BYD competition keeps bringing crazy results. It’s amazing what they have done with LFP in a relatively short amount of time. CATL getting in with Nio for battery swaps seems very interesting for where the grid can’t support a meg or more they can place a swap.
If this doesn’t work, people will say they’re all hat and no CATL.
Range calculation issues aside, the big news here is a 12C rate. Thats ridiculous. I honestly I can’t imagine that will be good for the long term health of the cells. Imagine trying to push 30 amps into a rechargeable AA battery, thats what we’re talking about here. To say nothing of trying to push 1.3MW through a charger AND have infrastructure capable of one let alone several of those at any given location. I guess if you could do mega capacitors inside the station to store that kind of current…
Frying the cells by fast charging is good business for the car companies selling cars.
Progress is progress. 100 years ago ICE cars were not perfect. Also that infrastructure would be built with good jobs and hard to offshore.