“Go big or go home,” they say. That’s either from the Bible or the Constitution. Maybe both, I can’t remember. But it’s an apt description for buyers of the new 2024 Ford Mustang: they’re overwhelmingly going for the V8 option this time around. I say good for those folks. Who knows how much longer they’ll be able to, right?
That leads off today’s morning roundup, which also comes with some dispatches about the future of another V8 engine; the Japanese automakers’ fortunes in China; and Ford gets an Apple veteran for subscription service stuff. Let’s take a look.
And A Pretty Good Take Rate For The Manual, Too
I haven’t driven the seventh-generation Ford Mustang yet, but from every review I’ve read (including ours) and how much I liked the last one, I imagine it’s an extremely difficult car not to like. But it’s also kind of a dying breed these days; the Chevrolet Camaro (in its current form, anyway) is out, the Dodge Challenger and Charger seem to have an electric future, and the “affordable-ish performance car” is far from what it once was.
Perhaps seeing the writing on the wall—or wanting to enjoy one of the last naturally aspirated V8 engines out there while they still can—the Associated Press reports the 5.0-liter Mustang GT is taking the lion’s share of orders. And a full quarter of buyers are going for the manual version, too; I don’t have a baseline to even compare that too, which illustrates how rare that situation even is.
There are about 13,000 U.S. orders for the 2024 Mustang, Ford says, which also can be equipped with a four-cylinder turbocharged engine. Of those orders, 67% have the V-8, and more than a quarter of the people seeking that Mustang want the six-speed manual transmission, spokesman Mike Levine says.
[…] Levine wouldn’t say whether this version of the Mustang would be the company’s last gas-powered muscle car. “That remains to be seen,” he said.
There also could be an electric Mustang sports car in the future. Electric cars, with instant torque and a low center of gravity, often are faster and handle better than internal combustion vehicles.
People are going for V-8 Mustangs with stick shifts in part because they may be the last of the gas-powered muscle car era, said Guidehouse Insights eMobility analyst Sam Abuelsamid.
“The most hard-core fans, they’re going to go out and grab one of these because you don’t know when it’s going to end,” he said.
The EcoBoost Mustang is a fine machine, it really is; but these days, given how truly rare V8 engines have become, I think the GT’s most worth springing for. Especially since Mustangs, and cars in general, aren’t as cheap as they used to be; you may as well get the one you want. How long will this engine stick around? Well, the sixth-gen S550 was with us for almost nine full production years, so if Ford’s really serious about going all-electric by 2030, this V8 Mustang could be with us until the end. Enjoy it while you can.
And get the manual too, if at all possible.
The Writing May Be On The Wall For The AMG V8 After All
Another great V8’s future is also in doubt: the delightful 4.0-liter twin-turbo V8 used in various AMG cars. Pretty recently, Mercedes’ go-fast division has been dialing down the displacement to focus on smaller, high-performance hybrid engines as Europe faces much stricter fuel economy rules. Recently, Car and Driver floated a rumor that the AMG V8 could make a comeback in a few years to better square off against BMW and Audi.
But now, Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport (via Motor 1) is throwing water on that report. Pardon the somewhat clunky translation here:
Two sources tell the magazine the M177 eight-cylinder will return in the two models from 2026, converted to Euro 7. Only minor body changes are required to accommodate the eighth. Other media also report that there is already approval for the V8 for the upcoming CLE in AMG trim (see slideshow).
auto-motor-und-sport.de also asked around at AMG and encountered general shaking of heads. “This is pure nonsense,” said an employee familiar with product development. The engine design for the AMG versions of the C and E classes and the CLE remains the same.
We now have to disappoint many fans of the eight-cylinder. The rumors that the V8 is making a comeback in the AMG C and E class are simply wrong.
Sadly for fans of eight-cylinder AMG fury, the downsizing trends we’ve seen in recent years seem much more plausible for the future than a return to V8 power. Especially as Mercedes focuses its R&D budget on wholly electric power instead.
Japan’s Secret Weapon In China (For Now): A Weak Yen
It’s no secret that the “foreign” automakers are getting clobbered in China these days as buyers increasingly turn to their homegrown brands. I’d wager the Japanese automakers are getting beaten the worst, thanks to their comparatively slow move to the full EVs that are dominating China’s crucial market.
So Reuters reports automakers like Toyota and Nissan are getting “much-needed cover from an old standby”: a weak Japanese yen, which is traditionally a boost for exports when currency conversion happens (though this has its downsides too.) For now, it’s a lifeline, but only a temporary one:
Toyota (7203.T), Honda (7267.T) and Nissan (7201.T) recently reported earnings that topped analyst estimates by 6% to 21% in the three months through June, and all cited the currency as a factor.
“If the yen stays low, they clearly benefit but it doesn’t offset any other concerns,” said Satoru Aoyama, senior director at Fitch Ratings Japan.
“They are struggling in the Chinese market,” he said. “They just don’t have an immediate solution” for their problems there, he added.
Nissan late last month upgraded its full-year operating profit forecast, raising it by 30 billion yen ($208 million) to 550 billion yen. About 20 billion yen of that came from the currency, CFO Stephen Ma told a briefing.
A weak yen has traditionally lifted profits for Japan’s big exporters, although it is no longer as large a boon for automakers that have increased their overseas manufacturing in recent years.
Exchange rates won’t prop Japan up forever, but China’s EV industry is rising so quickly that catching up—or competing—isn’t necessarily a given anymore.
Ford Gets An Apple Exec For New Software Business
V8 engines out, subscription software services in! What a way to describe our current moment. Ford’s eye on the future now includes tapping Peter Stern, a former Apple executive, for a new business unit responsible for software services. Here’s The Detroit News:
Stern served as vice president of services at Apple for more than six years before he left his role in January. He helped launch services including Apple TV+, Apple News+, MLS Season Pass and more. Prior to that, he was an executive at Time Warner Cable. He started his career at management consulting firm McKinsey & Co.
Stern started at Ford Monday. He’ll oversee the newly-created Ford Integrated Services and report directly to CEO Jim Farley, according to a news release. The services developed by the unit will be used by Ford Blue, Model e and Pro, the business units at Ford focused, respectively, on internal combustion engine vehicles, electric vehicles and software, and products and services for fleet customers.
[…] Ford reports having 550,000 paid software and services subscribers, about 80% of which are Ford Pro commercial customers. Farley has touted such services as a major opportunity for Ford, and automakers across the industry are hoping to convince customers to pay for subscription services beyond their vehicle purchase to provide a source of recurring revenue as they make the costly transition to electric vehicles.
Like it or not, the automakers have big plans for “recurring revenue” through software features you’ll have to keep paying for after the purchase of the actual car. But in a time when people’s budgets are squeezed thin as it is, I think they’ll all have a lot of convincing to do.
Your Turn
What car (not a pickup truck or SUV) will end up with the last V8 engine? I think there’s a very good chance it could be the Mustang, and possibly this one.
Last car with a V8? It’s gonna be a Ferrari assuming we’re not limiting scope. If we’re specifically looking for the last naturally aspirated V8 with a manual sold in the US? Probably the Mustang.
I’ve owned the GT, and it was a blast, but if it has to be your daily driver in the snow belt, the EcoBoost is the smart choice. They still have more torque and horsepower than 95% of the motoring public has any business having access to.
And are those actual customer orders, or just what dealers have specified? Just asking as we know dealers love to make the early arrivals the pricier options and loaded to the
gillsmane.While I’m not surprised that Mustang orders are heavily V8 (assuming most people with the discretionary income and lifestyle for one can also stretch to the bigger engine), but how has that mix looked traditionally, especially at the launch of a new generation? I’d also expect more EcoBoost buyers would settle for what’s on the lot versus special order, with the exception of performance pack models.
I special ordered my non-performance pack EcoBoost and pretty much made it a unicorn. I can’t imagine taking one off the lot, Dealers have horrible taste and generally resort to the exact same inventory, one metallic red and metallic gray, with zero interesting options. Yawn.
Corvette?
Affordable-ish leaves out Corvette.
HP will brick your printer if you don’t buy their ink.
Is that what we want for our cars?
I went on vacation to Japan last month all I heard before I went is how expensive it is to visit there. Experience on the ground was quite to the contrary because of the weak yen. One of the guides we met up with said we were more or less getting a 40% discount on everything compared to “normal”
Was there in December for the same reason. Going again this December… between reasonable flights and cheap food/accommodations you can’t go wrong.
It’s not too surprising to me that the return of the AMG V8 rumor was bunk. Georg’s inside scoops have been very hit or miss over the past four decades.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say the V8 outlasts the EcoBoost in the Mustang. Here’s why: The same people who would buy an EcoBoost Mustang are likely also the ones who will buy whatever the EV followup to it is (no, not the Mach E). During the EV transition small displacement 4’s are going to be phased out faster than larger displacement engines because an EV is going to do everything a 4 can do but better. The same will not be true for V8s (if only because of how they sound).
Consulting Crystal Ball: There is a 2018 Infiniti M56 in the backlot of Topeka Infiniti. You can’t see it from the road, it’s surrounded by corn now. It’s been test driven twice, last in July 18th of 2018. Awhile, but not too long. Possible in your life time depending on lifestyle. The Great Climate War will destroy outer Topeka. A long time from now, a young archaeologist from Witcha Three, will dig up said Infiniti. He will then sell it for 3 billion Future Yen claiming it’s an unused chariot of the Jayhawk King.
You aren’t a software industry person. So you can be forgiven for not understanding just how fucking bad this is.
Peter Stern isn’t just the guy who launched innumerable subscriptions that kept getting incrementally more expensive. He was the VP of Services. He was the brains behind it in the first place. He is “you will own absolutely nothing, pay us every month, and like it.” He’s been doing it since he was at Time Warner Cable. One of his things was below-the-line ‘fees.’ Show of hands, people who like their cable company’s TV service? Yeah.
I have to be somewhat careful what I say here for various reasons, but you cannot compare these two things. 550,000 ‘paid software and services subscribers’ is pure bullshit from Ford, because what they’re doing is counting fleet services customers and they’re counting Rotunda customers. That’s dealers and independent shops which pay Ford for things like VCMM subscriptions to do diagnostics and repairs on Ford cars.
This is not even remotely related to the consumer subscription model. Those fleet customers are generally paying an agreed upon, negotiated, scheduled rate for various fleet management services. That covers things like GPS tracking, maintenance and wear monitoring, fuel mileage, and technical support services. Things that are genuine value adds and useful for commercial operators.
Peter Stern is the guy who is going to find a way to charge you $49.99 a month to use cylinders 7 and 8 on your Mustang. $9.99 a month to pair your phone to the car ($14.99 for Android unless Google/Alphabet offers a better deal.)
His entire thing is zero value rent-seeking bullshit.
Ferrari. Guaranteed.
They already have the F154FA; if the emissions become a problem? They’ll just stick it in something like the Ferrari FXXXXXXXX.
I can’t speak about anyone else, but I, as someone with more than two brain cells to rub together, replete with a personality, will never condone such bullshittery (?) with my own dollars. Maybe everyone else has been trained like a good little boy or girl, but I’ll ride my bike before I cave in to this “stonks first, customers second” mentality.
“I’ll ride my bike before I cave in to this “stonks first, customers second” mentality.”
Customers have been second for a while (Market price adjustments, etc) so what’s stopping you now?
Fascinating comment, thank you!
Thanks for this. I was simply going to say that Stern is a POS parasite, but this is put so much better. Just consider that I’ve known people who were stuck with TWC during his tenure and they were excited to have the option of Comcast when they moved or wished they had the option where they were.
Wishing for Comcast over any other service is one of the saddest things I’ve heard recently.
Our newest car is a 2016, and it’s garbage like this about software services, as well as possible issues with right to repair and out of date tech (screens), that I don’t really see myself ever getting anything newer. I’ll stay with my early and mid 00-10 cars and just keep them going.
I predict Mustang, if only for look what happened the last time Ford had a good 5.0 V8 – it happily hung around forever, and the Ford Performance catalog is still mostly parts to wild it up.
If not Mustang, then Corvette or one of the exotics like Ferrari or Lamborghini.
Math tells me that the overall take rate on Mustangs with manual transmissions is 17%. That’s pretty high compared to the overall take rate on manual transmission cars is now 1-2%. But Mustang buyers fall into the “throwback” category, so the high take rate (relatively) doesn’t surprise me.
We’d like to think that everybody drove stick back in the day, but I’d bet a nickel that even for 1st gen Mustangs, the manual transmission take rate was under 50%.
The fact that we’ve retconned manual transmissions as being an essential part of the muscle car experience has always puzzled me. In practice a lot of the OG muscle and pony cars came with automatics, as did a lot of the more famous examples…not to mention automatics have always been prevalent in drag racing for obvious reasons.
I have some family members that drag race old school muscle cars they’ve built out and they all have shiftable autos. But anyway…I remain perplexed by the quantity of “if it isn’t a manual it isn’t a real (X)” takes I see when it comes to muscle cars. Don’t get me wrong-if you want to tell me an automatic Miata isn’t a true Miata or something like that I’m in agreement…but when it comes to muscle cars autos have always been prevalent, and honestly I’d opt for the 10 speed over the time bomb Getrag manual unit in the GT every single time.
That being said when you get up to the Dark Horse and it’s a Tremec manual and you’d be nuts not to spec it. That’s the way to have that trim unless you’re going purely for times.
I think it’s mostly that as a society, we’ve subsumed “muscle car” along with “sportscar” into something we think of as “performance car,” so we mentally associate stuff that used to be fairly distinctive. Sadly, a perhaps inevitable function of the dwindling amount of either available I suspect.
You may know this already, but the Tremec in the Dark Horse is not the “Tremec” most people are familiar with, which is the TR6060 from GM and FCA performance cars. It’s the lighter duty 3160. I’m assuming it’s better than the Getrag (otherwise why would it be sold as an upgrade?) but it’s not the bulletproof big boy.
Ecoboost is no longer offered in a manual, so those orders shouldn’t be factored into the numbers comparing the two transmission types. That’s why they broke it down to the number of V8s and what percentage of those are manual rather than an overall.
“Everybody’s workin’ for the weak Yen…“
Feel your Yenergy.
About Ford’s subscription ideas: most services are subscription-based anymore (Adobe, navigation, streaming media), so it makes sense. While I don’t think OnStar was a slam dunk for GM the first few years, times have changed. Features, like BMW’s seat heaters, aren’t the right path, but entertainment streaming is probably the future (RIP AM/FM). Trick is: can auto manufacturers get users to ditch their cell phones and use the integrated infotainment system? GM seems to think so, and now I’m wondering where Ford will lay their bets.
And the V8 will probably show up in plenty of customized builds but I’d say the mass-market days are numbered. Turbo 4s seem to be the new thing, and though the results have been great, it’s a bummer to see the V8 on its way out.
Why wouldn’t the C8 be the last V8?
Because there will be a C9, C10 etc too?
Waiting for the V9. V10 is fine too.
Now that that Vette’s gone mid-engine and is being positioned as an exotic, “tradition” can’t be used as an argument for an engine choice, so why not?
I think they’re positioning it to go all electric perhaps first via hybrid with a smaller engine. Moving to mid-engine and offering a higher end hybrid version were the first moves to get people used to the idea of change and the question of what a Corvette can be. If it loses some traditionalists, it picks up a newer crowd and, anyway, soon enough, it seems there will be little alternative.
I think Viagra can take care of a weak yen.
“Like it or not, the automakers have big plans for “recurring revenue” through software features you’ll have to keep paying for after the purchase of the actual car.” *&%$#@!
I’ll walk, thanks.
“Like it or not…” has the car-buying public forgotten that they are the consumers, and therefore have the purchasing power? If you don’t like it (and no sane person who has taken a moment to think about it would like subscription based features in their cars) then *don’t buy it* . Don’t. Vote with your dollars. Refuse to allow this trend to succeed.
And if every car manufacturer does the same thing at the same time leaving consumers no choice at all? Then it’s time to launch the mother of all anti-trust lawsuits, because clearly there are 1) too few competitors in the market, 2) obvious collusion at the c-suite level, or 3) both. Probably 3).
Don’t forget the politicians in the g-suite. We’ve been gradually conditioned to do as we’re told, think in a uniform manner, and generally not rock the boat.
So here’s the thing: cars, no matter what rich people want to tell you, are not a consumer good. They’re a durable good. Most people, if they are lucky enough to buy a new car at all, buy what is available to them at the time. They get what the manufacturer gives them.
Furthermore, in huge swaths of the US (at least), a car isn’t just an extremely rare purchase from new, it’s a necessity. Which makes it, again, a manufacturer-dictated item. Capitalism figured out a while ago that charging a shitload of money for necessities like food, housing, healthcare, utilities, and transportation is where the money is. And so the providers of those things–if a private entity–will charge as much as they possibly can for them to the point that they will throw shit out/let buildings sit empty rather than price them more affordably for more people. And people will take it, because they have to.
See also last week’s article about the increasing production of higher trim level packages. The 80/20 rule applies here as well.
As for antitrust… look how hard people had to fight John Deere. And that’s in an industry with much, much less competition than auto manufacturing. When every single manufacturer worldwide does this, an antitrust does nothing.
Voting with your wallet has been happening for decades in cars, and it’s buying used cars from before any of this crap happened. Every single manufacturer is so disconnected from their user base (not buyer base) that we’re gonna have cars as a service forever (I mean, until the end of western civilization.) It’s so much more bleak thank you think.
An antitrust. lol. lmao, even. You’ll be buying a Chinese ChangLi before another car manufacturer stops doing this shit. Especially one in the US.
At this point it feels like the actual vehicles I want to own are only obtainable well used. Almost everything past 2010 is going to be too tech laden for me to want at all. If money was no object then am sure there’s something new that I’d take a chance on.
But would really like to build an old school Volvo sleep wagon like the ones Paul Newman and Letterman owned. That could still work. And down the rabbit hole we go…
The problem isn’t the folks who read this site.
This will just be the way it is for folks that view the car as a transportation appliance. Much like Netflix, Amazon, etc……just pay your monthly fee and go.
Especially for the younger generations. They don’t own things we did in the past. They pay a monthly for movies, music, software (Adobe), etc.
They have been conditioned to pay a monthly fee for things…….forever.They don’t realize as soon as they stop that payment to Spotify, they own nothing. Same will go for there cars.
I think there will continue to be use cases for 8+ cylinder engines for many years to come. They probably won’t be fun applications, but they’ll remain necessary in trucks and assorted industrial grade vehicles. That being said I don’t think the Coyote in the Mustang is going to be the last of the fun V8s.
Manufacturers know they’ll sell every single car with a V8 they can make because of the mass enthusiast hysteria around them now. Companies like Stellantis are good and fucked because all they did was shove V8s in everything for years, but companies with enough electrified vehicles to offset the V8s when it comes to CAFE standards will still be able to make them.
BMW literally just updated their 4.4 liter twin turbo V8 so it can continue to be used in their new performance applications, Porsche claimed they were done offering them a few years ago and recently went back on it to put a V8 in the Cayenne S, the list is long. V8s aren’t becoming illegal or anything, companies just have to be able to offset them. Naturally GM and Ford are in good shape due to their early investment in EVs…and other major players in the EV game like Hyundai/Kia could conceivably offer a V8 in something, although they almost certainly won’t.
God I’m sad to see the rumors of the AMG V8’s return debunked. The hybrid technology in the C63 has been universally panned and apparently they’re having a very hard time selling them. It’s also ridiculously disappointing to see how pretty much all the smaller AMGs and AMG-lites are saddled with ridiculously overboosted 4 poppers.
In the C43/others it’s a full on AMG engine with one builder, but as I’ve said a million times already…do you trust 200+ German boosted horsepower per liter? I sure as shit don’t and it’s a bit of a shame because I’d love to take a look at an AMG GLA/GLB, CLA 45, or C43 in the next couple of years…but I just wouldn’t trust them to last a second longer than the warranty.
In 3-4 years you’re going to be able get all these current AMG products for pennies on the dollar because no one will be willing to work on them. If you want one the answer is leasing. I’d consider a B58 that’s off warranty but a 400+ horsepower 2 liter 4 paired with hybrid technology? Forget about it…
Disagree, unlike most turbo 4s they reverted back to a closed deck engine. You know thats largely what made the 4g63t so respectable right?
I think it swapped again but the turbo was also in front too, which makes boost leak checking and turbo shaft play checking super easy. Big turbos fit there better than between the engine and firewall.
The stock turbo is huge so its not quite the same as small turbochargers blowing fire at 30psi, these bigger turbochargers run much cooler at high boost.
With a tune they really wake up too, even in the mid range. 500whp on the stock turbo is nuts.
The problem is you cant get this engine in a real manual trans sporty chassis. It only comes in overpriced cars and people in that bracket generally lack the brain cells to appreciate a well built engine and just say its “high strung” which is what kept people away from early Evolutions that made 300hp from a 2.0 when a Mustang V8 4.6 only made 260.
I’ll take that under advisement, thanks for the comment. If they prove to be reasonably reliable I’ll be more than happy to add them to my shopping list when it’s time…I’ve just been hurt by boosted German 4s before and I’m apprehensive
Closed deck isn’t a cure all for the potential problems that come from something so high strung and these cars, as you state, are going to largely be bought for the badge by normals who will drive them and maintain them as such, not some gear head who spends his time and money tuning and rebuilding and paying attention to the car. We’re also talking a German company, here, not ’90s Japanese overbuild-everything-because-of-great-exchange-rates and to meet homologation requirements for racing series that required much more legit road versions be built. An engine with that much power per displacement and per cylinder is going to be shorter lived unless it is almost never loaded, but placed into a land yacht and driven by people with no mechanical sympathy or care, that will rarely be the case. At least for MB, the leases keep mileages down, so failures before the first lease term is up should be manageable. Premium brand Buy Here Pay Here lots are going to be really fun in a few years!
It probably will be a Mustang, but I’d wager much later than this one because all these full EV by 203X claims are bullshit. Automakers might be able to go full EV by then, but the charging situation can not.
I had a new Mustang in front of me the other day, still with temporary plates. Genuinely unpleasant sounding. If they have to sound like a robot farting, can’t wait until they’re replaced with electric.
Last V8? Ferrari, as a downsized V12.
Or some kind of home built thing. You can make a functional ICE at home, and run it on moonshine.
Last of the V8’s? Koenigsegg, which is still based on the Ford Mod V8…
For as long as V8s are viable in pickup trucks (a long time hopefully, because EV towing is obviously a fiasco with current battery tech), it will probably be desirable to spread engine development costs with a sporty car from the same manufacturer. Even if it requires paying some fines in order to sell it.
So the Mustang and/or Corvette is probably the answer, unless Stellantis brings back something with the 6.4L.
Sadly, I don’t share the same optimism for the future of the V10, the configuration of the gods.
Right before lockdown I went and looked at an absolutely loaded Ecoboost Mustang. I think it had every single factory performance option, plus a factory tune. Super low mileage. Absolutely screaming deal, I think it wasn’t even $30K. Like 27K or something. Just couldn’t pull the trigger, no matter how good a car it was.
I was looking at the S550 HPP Ecoboosts for a little while back in 2021. Something about the skunkworks nature of putting the Focus RS 4 popper in a Mustang was cool to me, and they’re great performers. Plus with the acceptable fuel economy, lower insurance premiums, and some screaming deals they had they’re way cheaper to own than any V8.
But again…if I were to actually buy a pony car (never happening, the wife hates them and all they stand for) I couldn’t say no to a V8, especially one as good as the Coyote.
I kept thinking about one and making it an ST version, like a neo SVO with a dual plane wing and maybe a few other things, but they just don’t grab me enough.
As the owner of multiple SVOs over the years I was really hoping Ford would offer a hot version of the ecoboost with dual wings, a hood scoop and some advanced handling package. I don’t think Ford really thinks much of the SVO, though.
I’d be fine with a turbo Mustang. Even, gasp, an automatic turbo 4 banger Mustang. The reason is for the convertible top and being a comfy cruiser. Actually the electric ‘Stang would be perfect for that mission. No snarling V8 necessary for wafting down a country lane enjoying the sights.
I’d wager the V8 never goes away completely. Alternative combustible fuels or a niche designer-style market are going to keep the basic design going forever, the last car to get it will be some limited edition, hand-built, fringe car that only the hyper rich can afford while the rest of us all get shuttled around in non-descript pods.
“while the rest of us all get shuttled around in non-descript pods.”
Given how many people speed, run lights and stop signs, tailgate, have no insurance or assets etc that will be a blessing.