Home » It Sure Looks Like Tesla Just Won America’s EV Charging Plug War

It Sure Looks Like Tesla Just Won America’s EV Charging Plug War

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This week is the 39th anniversary of the film “Ghostbusters,” which is a reference David may or may not get [Editor’s Note: Yes, but only because people at Chrysler said I looked like Rick Moranis. -DT]. The original script, by Dan Akroyd, had the original Ghostbusters flying into space, among all sorts of other wild ideas. Screenwriter Ivan Reitman urged Akroyd and co-writer Harold Ramis to start out at Columbia University and slowly skew the world so the audience would accept what’s happening. He called it his “Domino theory of reality.” A year ago, it didn’t seem possible that the major automakers would give-in to Tesla’s call for using its charging standard. But now? With GM signing on, it seems pretty real to me.

Here’s the full quote from an old Vanity Fair piece on the movie, btw:

Vidframe Min Top
Vidframe Min Bottom

Aykroyd and Reitman went to lunch at Art’s Delicatessen in Studio City to discuss the project. “I basically pitched what is now the movie—that the [Ghostbusters] should go into business,” says Reitman. “This was beginning of the 1980s: everyone was going into business.” He also urged Aykroyd to extract the film from the realm of pure fantasy and set it in a modern American city. “I called it my domino theory of reality,” he says. “If we could just play this thing realistically from the beginning, we’d believe that the Marshmallow Man could exist by the end of the film.”

The second domino, here, is GM announcing it’s going to Tesla’s NACS (North American Charging Standard). It’s Slimer in the Sedgewick Hotel. The Marshmallow Man, in this case, is Volkswagen adopting Tesla’s standard. [Editor’s Note: OK, you’re starting to lose me with the references, now. -DT]

After we dive into that it’ll be “just the facts, jack” as John Candy famously says in “Ghostbusters 2.”* Those facts are: Inventory is improving, Corvette deals are hard to come by, BAC is expanding in the United States, and the UK/US are close to a minerals deal.

GM Adopts Tesla’s Charging Standards

President Biden Tours Broad Portfolio Of Evs At Detroit Auto Show

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It was just two weeks ago that Ford announced it was adding Tesla-style NACS charging ports to its future cars, which would also give Ford owners access to Tesla’s Supercharger network (via an adapter for existing vehicles). I argued that Tesla, no matter how you feel about Elon Musk, should win the charging standards war. From my article:

Tesla was here first and yet, given many attempts to make a better charger, no one really has. CHAdeMO is worse. CCS is worse. CCS Type 2 is no better (Tesla CEO Elon Musk, on a Twitter spaces with Ford CEO Jim Farley yesterday, argued it was bad and “designed by a committee,” which is anathema to someone who is not normally cooperative).

The Tesla connecter is the best and, in the United States at least, the Tesla supercharging network is vastly superior.

Not only is Tesla’s network superior in terms of reliability, about 60% of the fast chargers in the United States belong to Tesla. I suppose GM CEO Mary Barra might have read this piece and agreed with me! Or, more likely, GM saw what Ford did and realized it didn’t make sense not to hold out in defense of a worse design. Here’s what GM said about it:

“Our vision of the all-electric future means producing millions of world-class EVs across categories and price points, while creating an ecosystem that will accelerate mass EV adoption,” said GM Chair and CEO Mary Barra. “This collaboration is a key part of our strategy and an important next step in quickly expanding access to fast chargers for our customers. Not only will it help make the transition to electric vehicles more seamless for our customers, but it could help move the industry toward a single North American charging standard.”

GM also said it’ll save about $400 million doing this, which doesn’t hurt. The wrinkle here is that, hoping to encourage more automakers than just Tesla to make EVs, The White House earmarked a lot of money for charging stations with the CCS standard, as Reuters points out in their writeup of what happened:

The Biden administration made adoption of a rival “combined charging system” (CCS) standard a requirement in order for companies to be eligible for billions of dollars of federal subsidies for new charging stations on some 7,500 miles (12,070 km) of the nation’s busiest roadways. The alliance among Tesla, Ford and GM challenges the White House’s direction.

But Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg told CNBC in May after the Ford-Tesla deal that the industry will eventually converge on one system but that adapters would allow cross- usage.

There’s a lot of Inflation Reduction Act-effect in the Q1 EV sales numbers in the United States, but even accounting for that, the combo of Tesla-GM-Ford makes up more than 70% of electric vehicles sold here. And Transportation Secretary Buttigieg is right, of course, that adapters will help solve this problem, but I don’t see how CCS recovers. If you’re Toyota, BMW, Subaru, Tesla, Hyundai, or anyone else, then it seems easiest to make a quick deal with Tesla and suddenly give your customers a lot more charging options.

The biggest loser here, besides all the charging companies, is Volkswagen. The company is the fourth biggest EV brand in the United States by market share and it also owns most of Electrify America, which is the biggest challenger to Tesla’s Supercharger network.  There’s no reason why Volkswagen can’t switch either, I suppose, but it’s going to be hard pill to swallow for the company.

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The second biggest loser might be Tesla owners, who will now have to share their charging network with more people and will lose the bragging rights.

BAC Is Coming To The United States

Bac Mono

I was surprised to see a Briggs Automotive Company (BAC) Mono at the Greenwich Concours last weekend and, now, it all comes together in my brain: the British car company is going to open up three facilities in the U.S. Market to sell their wild single-seat sports cars, including in Connecticut.

Having recently inaugurated three new facilities in Asia, BAC has unveiled expansion plans for the US market at three state-of-the-art locations: Philadelphia, Greenwich, and Newport Beach. This expansion is set to afford the high-tech single-seater supercar manufacturer – the leader in delivering one-of-a-kind bespoke craftsmanship – an unprecedented retail presence in the country.

BAC USA’s locations will be operated in partnership with RDS Automotive Group, a leading and exclusive automobile retailer that has for over 15 years represented the finest automotive brands from around the world. The multi-dealership agreement will elevate the presence of the Mono range to a new level across the USA.

That last bit makes a lot of sense. RDS operates Lamborghini dealerships in Philly, Newport Beach, and Greenwich. Adding the F1-esque BAC alongside those vehicles is sort of a no- brainer. Kids and adults alike were freaking out over the BAC Mono at the Concours Sport on Saturday. Even my dad stopped to take a photograph.

There’s probably no less-Matt Hardigree car than a BAC Mono, but if they’re this close I feel like I should give it a try. Maybe I can get Parker Kligerman to go drive it with me and find out what a real race car driver thinks.

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UK-US Working On A Minerals Deal

White House Sunak Biden

The idea of the United States and the United Kingdom working together on a deal under something called the IRA is, of course, extremely amusing. Try telling that to someone in Belfast in 1994 and see how long it takes before someone knocks you on your arse.

Essentially, the big carrot of the IRA is that the materials to make batteries and the batteries themselves have to come from friendly places and, in theory, be assembled in North America to qualify for full discounts. President Biden, whatever you think about him, has been a savvy negotiator and the IRA gives his administration a huge amount of leverage with other nations. In theory, free trade agreements are treaties and thus require Congressional approval, but the more limited arrangements President Biden has made are in a grey area.

Here’s more from The Detroit News:

The so-called “Atlantic Declaration” is the latest of several potential deals the Biden administration is negotiating with key allies to bring them in to the manufacturing spending boom prompted by the IRA, and to ensure automakers and tech and energy companies have access to the minerals they need to roll out carbon-cutting products. Talks are underway with the European Union, and the administration finalized an agreement with Japan in March.

This is sort of a win for everyone. Britain needs a new trade agreement with the US to help stem their Brexit losses, but in the interim this sort of smaller arrangement is better than nothing. The United States wants to have sway over the world as it competes with China and needs support from allies for the War in Ukraine. Automakers get some production flexibility and, more importantly, new sources of precious battery-making supplies. More battery supplies mean, in theory, cheaper batteries for consumers.

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The only group potentially on the outs here is labor, who wants to get as many American jobs as possible.

Inventories Up 71%, But Don’t Expect Insane Deals On Everything

2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Photo credit: Chevrolet

The good news is that the latest estimate of U.S. inventory is 1,928,619 total vehicles, or approximately a 52-day supply according to the Cox Automotive and Automotive News Research & Data CenterThat’s a 71% increase from this same time last year, right as we head into the hot summer selling season. Sure, a lot of those are Jeep Renegades, but not all of them.

Automakers are not, generally, dumb, and they’re prioritizing building vehicles that are popular and profitable. Thus, availability depends on what you want. Per Automotive News:

Midsize, compact, subcompact and high-performance cars continue to be the only segments with less than a 40-day supply of inventory, according to Cox data. High-end luxury cars, full-size cars, electric vehicles and “uber-luxury” vehicles all had more than 80-day supplies.

A good example of that is the desirable C8 Corvette. The Bowling Green, Kentucky plant where they build these vehicles have been hit by supply shortages, and thus there are exactly zero incentives or discounts on Corvettes according to GM Authority. Still, if you want a RAM 1500, now might be a good time to head to a dealership.

The Big Question

Who is next to fall to the NACS charger in North America? My money is on Toyota/Subaru.

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*This is me testing David. Photos: GM, The White House, Tesla, BAC

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Toecutter
Toecutter
1 year ago

The BAC Mono is one of the few modern cars that interest me. Glad to see it’s coming to the USA.

I’d love for them to build a streamliner variant that is more about drag reduction and less about downforce, just to see what kind of fuel economy and top speed is possible. It would be even better if it was powered by a small diesel engine.

Also glad to see that an EV charging standard is being decided. Wile Tesla’s “solution” is inferior to other competitors, it does work, and y adopting one standard, EV charging infrastructure can be more easily expanded. If we had more efficient cars with smaller battery packs for the requisite range desired, charging time would be significantly reduced and Tesla’s shortcomings wouldn’t matter so much. A 25-30 kWh pack charging from a Tesla supercharger would be comparable to filling an ICE car’s gas tank in terms of required charging time. These massive 100-200+ kWh packs are what makes charging such a chore.

changedmynameasIworkinadealershipandsomeofourbrandsarentgreat
changedmynameasIworkinadealershipandsomeofourbrandsarentgreat
1 year ago
Reply to  Toecutter

In the UK it costs around the same as a Huracan Evo. Fascinating ‘what-if?’ but something in the vein of a VW XL1 it is definitely not gonna ever be

JaredTheGeek
JaredTheGeek
1 year ago

Tesla publicly stated they were making NACS a public standard, for government funding they should add that stipulation and require Tesla ensure it’s open before they hand out the money. While I love the supercharger network I do not want a monopoly.

Mr Sarcastic
Mr Sarcastic
1 year ago

Hey DT you are Marks boss. Have you considered assigning him a subject for a column. Like how long can MH stay in a Fiat 500 parked in a big meat freezer?
As it was stated by Mel Brooks as Louis XIV in History of the World Part I, its good to be the king. I think a series of challenges for Mark would be enjoyed by the readers.

Dodsworth
Dodsworth
1 year ago

I think going with the Tesla system is the smart thing to do. I admire the Tesla charging network more than I do the cars and a common system is best for everyone. I look forward to the charging turf wars amongst Tesla owners and other brands. The eyes closed slap fights will be epic!

Mr Sarcastic
Mr Sarcastic
1 year ago
Reply to  Dodsworth

Its agreed by everyone to be the best. It has the best reach. It has the best maintainable. Why not except Tesla haters.

121gwats
121gwats
1 year ago

Anyone who’s used CCS knows it sucks. You have to support the weight of the giant cable for 20-30 seconds while it’s communicating with the car, otherwise you’ll get a fault, especially in winter. I’ve seriously needed to start the charge 10-12 times just to get it to work. Not to mention: HALF ARE BROKEN!! Also: they’re few and far between, complicated payment w/ 40 apps, and in weird locations. I charged at a cement company last winter with nothing remotely close for food/water/bathroom/wifi/coffee. Obviously having 2 standards for L2/L3 is stupid.

Then I bought a Tesla and never thought about charging ever again.

Last edited 1 year ago by 121gwats
Sivad Nayrb
Sivad Nayrb
1 year ago
Reply to  121gwats

… but, along with great charging, you get a Tesla with the build ‘quality’ of a Nineties vintage Hyundai or Mitsubishi.

JaredTheGeek
JaredTheGeek
1 year ago
Reply to  Sivad Nayrb

That’s not current quality of the vehicles.

Ioan Radulescu
Ioan Radulescu
1 year ago
Reply to  Sivad Nayrb

you’re wrong there, it is like an Opel/BMW from 2000. But most importantly there is absolutely no squeaking when driving, which even the best Jaguar limousines didn’t quite eliminate. Only thing could be better is vented seats, autopilot and quieter interior (thicker glass?).

121gwats
121gwats
1 year ago
Reply to  Sivad Nayrb

No issues with mine, I think you’re just repeating stuff you read on the interwebs.

Ioan Radulescu
Ioan Radulescu
1 year ago
Reply to  121gwats

I’m using CCS with my Tesla every week – in Europe, at Superchargers. Always works at Tesla Superchargers. The CCS is not the issue here.

Ross Williams
Ross Williams
1 year ago
Reply to  Ioan Radulescu

You are using CCS type 2 chargers, which are very different, and incompatible, with the CCS type 1 chargers in North America used by Ford, GM, VW, etc.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ross Williams
121gwats
121gwats
1 year ago
Reply to  Ioan Radulescu

The directions for CCS literally states you must support the weight of the cord for 30 seconds while the handshake takes place, according to GM (former Bolt owner). Maybe the cords are heavier in the US, but I constantly had connection issues, and judging by Plugshare comments, I’m not alone.

SarlaccRoadster
SarlaccRoadster
1 year ago
Reply to  121gwats

aren’t US CCS (CCS1) and EU CCS (CCS2) different?

121gwats
121gwats
1 year ago

Good point. Maybe the different shape keeps it planted better in Europe. My experience is only in US.

Fix It Again Tony
Fix It Again Tony
1 year ago

I wonder if there will be one price at the charger for Tesla cars and another for everything else.

Brian Ash
Brian Ash
1 year ago

Most definitely more $ for everything else.

Mr Sarcastic
Mr Sarcastic
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

Why not Tesla and buyers paid for it? Should other manufacturers not have to chip in? WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE THINK THEY SHOULD GET SHIT FOR FREE?

Sivad Nayrb
Sivad Nayrb
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Sarcastic

Teslastans are funny.

Greg
Greg
1 year ago

If I am Tesla, I start pumping out fast chargers and level 2 support all over the country on a significant scale..above and beyond what they have done or planned previously.

Own the infrastructure and who cares what brand is plugging in, they are all paying you.

Last edited 1 year ago by Greg
B85S5DSG
B85S5DSG
1 year ago
Reply to  Greg

At the HyVee near my house, there are about 8 Tesla chargers going in right now.

Sivad Nayrb
Sivad Nayrb
1 year ago
Reply to  Greg

… this was part of 420-boy’s plan all along – own the charging infrastructure.

Data
Data
1 year ago

“If we could just play this thing realistically from the beginning, we’d believe that the Marshmallow Man could exist by the end of the film.”

Well there’s something you don’t see everyday.

Ray has gone bye-bye, Egon… what’ve you got left?
Sorry, Venkman, I’m terrified beyond the capacity for rational thought.

Chris with bad opinions
Chris with bad opinions
1 year ago
Reply to  Data

I love this plan! I’m excited to be a part of it!

Mr Sarcastic
Mr Sarcastic
1 year ago
Reply to  Data

I see the marshmallow man everytime i look in the mirror. Sans naval beret because i still have standards.

RootWyrm
RootWyrm
1 year ago

Just what we fucking need, more American insistence on technologically inferior standards. Oh well. Gonna do it with lighting, may as well do the whole damn car as well.

Manwich Sandwich
Manwich Sandwich
1 year ago
Reply to  RootWyrm

You are wrong.

Moving to NACS means moving to a superior standard.

But don’t take my word for it… here’s the detailed technical explanation over why it’s superior:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsNiupN1X7s

And here is the opinion of someone with decades of engineering experience on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VBCpAHvOpQ

Andrew Bugenis
Andrew Bugenis
1 year ago

I still think this is a bad idea – I’d rather we went with the standard developed by a group of different professionals rather than one company that’s recently proven to care about its own bottom line more than anything cooperative – but I’ve hitched my wagon to the wrong horses plenty of times before, and I’ll have to just add this to the tally. (Really, it is quite depressing. Windows Phone, Saturn, who knows what else.)

Brian Ash
Brian Ash
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Bugenis

Yeah the standard developed by most other companies, IE professionals, and groups should of been the winner. Plus Tesla and their proprietary plug weren’t first, CCS developed in 2011 and the Tesla plug in 2012. I just fear Tesla will try to screw everyone. Additional, sure there’s maybe almost 40k Tesla chargers, but there are more CCS chargers than Tesla ones. All points suggest its a bad idea.

Goose
Goose
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

As much as I hate Tesla’s, their connector is so much better than the J1772 CCS connector.

Mr Sarcastic
Mr Sarcastic
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

Every other system sucks. It is not dependable. And i am sorry but Musk put more money into the program and kept it working losing billions until proved right. No other company, hell all the companies put together invested half the money musk has. So haters gonna hate would rather have broke chargers hundreds of miles apart than reliable system? TROLLS.

SarlaccRoadster
SarlaccRoadster
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

didn’t Tesla make their NACS connector standard “open”? as in “not proprietary”?
what’s stopping every charging network from making their chargers NACS from now on?

CRX89
CRX89
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Bugenis

I still have my Zune but the battery is long gone.

changedmynameasIworkinadealershipandsomeofourbrandsarentgreat
changedmynameasIworkinadealershipandsomeofourbrandsarentgreat
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Bugenis

I loved my windows phone, I liked the tiles

Brian Ash
Brian Ash
1 year ago

I predicted one of the other Big 3 would be next to jump on the Tesla charger boat after the Ford cause of the pissing contest between them since the beginning of time.

Until the IRA changes don’t know what charging companies will do, but they will be fine.

Who it really hurts is the average Joe that has paid for a CCS charger at home, now they may need a new charger for their next EV.

RidesBicyclesButLovesCars
RidesBicyclesButLovesCars
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

Or they buy a $50 J1772 to Tesla adaptor and use the same charger.

Brian Ash
Brian Ash
1 year ago

Adapters never last, are an additional point of failure, and now it will be impossible to identify a good one as amazon will be flooded with cheap imported junk with fake reviews.

Andrew Wyman
Andrew Wyman
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

You make them sound much worse than they are. Yes there will be plenty of crap ones, but it won’t be that hard to find the good ones. This isn’t a spatula we are talking about here.

Just Jeepin’
Just Jeepin’
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

I have a simple rule of thumb that has never steered me wrong: if I care about the quality, I don’t buy from Amazon. Buy it directly from the source or from an online retailer that specializes in the product category.

If you don’t know what you’re selling, I’m not interested in buying.

Mr Sarcastic
Mr Sarcastic
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

So $50 buy one every time you buy a new EV. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? People paid more for Beta VCRS. DID YOU CRY FOR YHEM ARGENTINA?

SecrtAgnt
SecrtAgnt
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

Except there is no reason to have a CCS charger at home. All you need is a standard NEMA 14-50 220v outlet (the same outlet that is used for electric dryers). The charging standard wars are about public L3 high-speed charging. There really isn’t an impact on what happens at home. When I visit my stepdad who has a Hyundai Ioniq BEV, I can easily plug my Model S into the same outlet he uses to charge his car. Likewise, he can plug his Hyundai into my outlet when he comes to visit.

There just isn’t really anything special that you need to do level 2 charging at home. A simple dryer outlet. That’s it.

MrLM002
MrLM002
1 year ago
Reply to  SecrtAgnt

Honestly that’s why I don’t think we should have L2 public chargers. Just put a bunch of 220V outlets everywhere and bring your own charging cable. Make them coin operated for all I care, they’re a lot cheaper and take up a lot less space than most L2 public chargers in the US.

WOV
WOV
1 year ago
Reply to  MrLM002

itselectric.us agrees with you. Actually this is a very common Euro city implementation, too.

Mr Sarcastic
Mr Sarcastic
1 year ago
Reply to  SecrtAgnt

I disagree you have a charger at home you are set.

Bison78
Bison78
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

Who it really hurts is the average Joe that has paid for a CCS charger at home, now they may need a new charger for their next EV.

No-one has CCS at home. They may have J1772, but they can get an adapter for this.

SCJeff
SCJeff
1 year ago
Reply to  Bison78

Yep, that’s what I’ve been doing (J1772 adaptor) to charge my Tesla at home for the last 2 years. Not a problem at all.

Mr Sarcastic
Mr Sarcastic
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian Ash

But fine for current, and it will be an adapter for like $50.

Fuzzyweis
Fuzzyweis
1 year ago

I’m almost agreeing with Matt on Toyota, they invested in Tesla early on, and had the Tesla powered Rav4 only 10 years ago. Toyota dumped all their Tesla stock but they have history. Also they only have a couple models to switch over(plug-ins will probably stay CCS for a while as many don’t even have fast charging)

If not them then possibly Stellantis since they don’t have much stake in the game yet so could be easy to swap over as well.

Advantages to being a latecomer I guess.

Harmanx
Harmanx
1 year ago
Reply to  Fuzzyweis

If Diess had remained head of VW, they might have been first, instead of Ford.

SarlaccRoadster
SarlaccRoadster
1 year ago
Reply to  Fuzzyweis

Given Toyota’s approach to EVs (lobbying against EVs at the level of Exxon, spreading anti-EV propaganda in schools, spending billions on hydrogen nonsense etc), I’m prety sure they won’t do anything close to making sense.

Drew
Drew
1 year ago

The biggest loser here, besides all the charging companies, is Volkswagen. The company is the fourth biggest EV brand in the United States by market share and it also owns most of Electrify America, which is the biggest challenger to Tesla’s Supercharger network. There’s no reason why Volkswagen can’t switch either, I suppose, but it’s going to be hard pill to swallow for the company.

I suspect they’ll change their cars over well before they start changing the Electrify America stations. Creating those was a penalty, not a moneymaker. They’ll write off a bunch of loss and eventually just let it fold, probably. It’s likely better as a write-off than an investment if they need to switch everything over.

It’s too bad, because we will need to have a lot of active charging stations and I think a few of these companies will fold under the cost of switching standards, reducing the number of stations before we start to see real increases.

Chronometric
Chronometric
1 year ago
Reply to  Drew

If operating electric charge stations is profitable, then VW will probably not fold E-A. Much of the cost of the network is securing the locations, negotiating the leases, building the infrastructure, and setting up the billing systems. None of that changes if they swap in new chargers or simply supply adapters.

Drew
Drew
1 year ago
Reply to  Chronometric

That profitability is a big if, though. And that further comes into question when you take into account that some of their expected traffic would then go to a Tesla supercharger or the like. Given that they’ve already been raising prices before these big announcements, I would suspect they do not expect to remain both competitive and profitable with a switch to NACS.

I could be wrong, and I hope that if they sell for a loss some other company converts them and makes them profitable.

Fix It Again Tony
Fix It Again Tony
1 year ago
Reply to  Drew

They’ll write off a bunch of loss and eventually just let it fold

They’ll have to keep something around for the diesel gate penalty though, right?

Drew
Drew
1 year ago

Pretty sure they just had to spend a couple billion on it, which they have done (and then some). I don’t know if they’ll have to show they lost that initial 2 billion, but they can probably do some accounting to make sure it looks that way.

Nsane In The MembraNe
Nsane In The MembraNe
1 year ago

The prices for enthusiast cars are still ludicrous. Like most enthusiasts I often browse listings in my free time for fun, and in my area GR Corollas and new CTRs are literally selling for somewhere between 10 and 20,000 over MSRP. Golf Rs are going for roughly $60,000. C8 Corvettes are still selling for close to six figures. All manual Toyobarus are still selling for over MSRP.

Hell…I even see Camaros going for over MSRP, and examples of the last gen CTR are selling for over original MSRP with up to 60,000 miles and accidents on their CarFaxes. Once you get up to luxury performance cars they’re more or less going at MSRP, and at that point most normal enthusiasts can no longer pay to play. The only things that I see at MSRP or less are the Hyundai Ns, WRXs, and GTIs. People are paying last gen CTR prices for new SIs. WHY?!?!

As is the gold standard in the USA, it’s always the people of less financial means who wind up with the tab. Anyway, I am once again going to remind everyone to chill the fuck out with these cars. And I mean everyone. Car YouTubers? Stop taking Honda’s money to cream your jeans over every single CTR. Dudebros buying these cars with markups? You can wait 6-12 months for your GRC. It’s going to be okay. Manufacturers? You’re greedy shit goblins limiting supply intentionally.

You shouldn’t need to be rich to afford a new enthusiast oriented car. We’re losing the plot here and we all have a role to play in putting an end to this BS.

Cheap Bastard
Cheap Bastard
1 year ago

So become a different *kind* of enthusiast.

Hello vintage Chrysler minivans!

Nsane In The MembraNe
Nsane In The MembraNe
1 year ago
Reply to  Cheap Bastard

No one:

Absolutely no one:

Not a single soul:

The Autopian: have you considered a VAN brotherrrrrr?!

Drew
Drew
1 year ago

More like:
“I want to tow and haul.”
Did you know you can get a van?
“I’m looking to track–”
There’s a van for that!
“I want fuel effici-”
Hybrid van!
“For Radwoo–”
80’s van!
“I want a convert–”
This guy in Florida made a convertible minivan that’s only somewhat janky! Just fly down there and buy it!

Nsane In The MembraNe
Nsane In The MembraNe
1 year ago
Reply to  Drew

I’ve recently caught myself stopping to admire Pacificas multiple times. You people have ruined me.

Unclesam
Unclesam
1 year ago

One of us! One of us!

TOSSABL
TOSSABL
1 year ago
Reply to  Unclesam

Nice
This whole exchange should be considered for COTD just because it exemplifies this place so freakin well

Boris Berkovich
Boris Berkovich
1 year ago

The Pacifica is nicer than it’s got any right to be (and it comes in AWD). Too bad Stellantis reliability is part of the package.

Arch Duke Maxyenko
Arch Duke Maxyenko
1 year ago

The next to adopt the NACS? Has to be Stellantis

Angel "the Cobra" Martin
Angel "the Cobra" Martin
1 year ago

After we dive into that it’ll be “just the facts, jack” as John Candy famously says in “Ghostbusters 2.”

Bill Murray in Stripes

Live2ski
Live2ski
1 year ago

“That’s the fact, Jack!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EygUZFLqKIE

Data
Data
1 year ago

Where have you been soldier?
TRAINING, SIR!
What kind of training?
AAAAARRRRRRMYYYYYY TRAINING, SIR!

Drew
Drew
1 year ago

If GM and Ford are onto NACS, I think we have a winner in the charger wars. I think you might be onto something assuming that Japanese companies will be next (after all, Toyota being slow to put out EVs means they are less invested in CCS and can probably be convinced to switch faster), but I’d guess the Korean pair might try to be quick on the draw here. They’re putting out EVs people want, but they are hindered by the tax credit structure. They don’t want to end up behind on a charging standard switch, too.

Icouldntfindaclevername
Icouldntfindaclevername
1 year ago

So now the US has one standard and the rest of the world has another. Let’s just hope it works out in the end, just like Firewire vs USB

Drew
Drew
1 year ago

To be fair (to be faaiirr…), there are multiple standards in the world. Euro CCS is different from US, Japan still uses chademo, and China has its own standard.

Taco Shackleford
Taco Shackleford
1 year ago
Reply to  Drew

it doesn’t count unless you go bar downski.

Manwich Sandwich
Manwich Sandwich
1 year ago

No. it was already that way before because the CCS in North America wasn’t compatible with CCS in the EU to begin with. And China is doing their own thing with their own standard. And Chademo is still a thing in Japan.

What this really means is that North America will have a superior charging standard compared to the rest of the world.

Stacheface
Stacheface
1 year ago

So I’m curious about the charging standards, does or will Tesla allow other companies to build chargers with a Tesla plug? Or if everyone switches to the Tesla standard, would that mean Tesla would basically have a monopoly with their supercharger network? That seems like a huge step up in building new charging stations and upkeep.

Harmanx
Harmanx
1 year ago
Reply to  Stacheface

I think it being a standard means that other companies would be able to include it as well. That would be in Tesla’s interest, ultimately.

S Chen
S Chen
1 year ago
Reply to  Stacheface

Tesla has released the design of NACS as open source. Anyone can build it free of royalties.

WOV
WOV
1 year ago
Reply to  S Chen

Tesla has released the design of the NACS *plug* as open source, but fast chargers are not just plugs. There’s a lot of data exchange, and I was more concerned about this, but turns out the communication standard underlying the NACS plug *is* a standard as ISO 15118.

Now, that said, nothing says they have to keep their own chargers compliant with ISO 15118 (or offer, e.g. the software support and troubleshooting everyone needs to integrate their vehicles) hence GM keeping funding flowing to EVgo and other competitors to keep the pressure on / retain some leverage. (and as someone else here pointed out, kick them in the teeth by providing direct competition.)

Crank Shaft
Crank Shaft
1 year ago

To me that’s sad news about Tesla. But only because Musk has become so odious that I now despise everything Tesla. You know, objective thinking. 😉

Must resist urge to buy another car I don’t need. Shit this is hard.

M K
M K
1 year ago

I honestly think this is the kick in the teeth the other charging networks need. Tesla, by providing a seamless alternative, should force the others to up their game. In the end, its not really about the connector…yes the NACS design is more compact, but the under the hood, they are really the same. Tesla just does a better job with the user experience (maintenance, payment, performance, etc..) Hyundai/Kia are next.

Now, if Tesla/Ford/GM can get other charge networks to seamlessly work for their customers just like a Tesla charger, then everyone wins regardless of the connector or the need for an adapter.

Manwich Sandwich
Manwich Sandwich
1 year ago
Reply to  M K

Actually it very much is about the connector. Part of the reason CCS stations are down is due to the poor design choices made. Here is a Munro video that goes into it in detail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsNiupN1X7s

Canopysaurus
Canopysaurus
1 year ago

I’m thinking Hyundai/Kia will fall in next on NACS.

The Bonnie Situation
The Bonnie Situation
1 year ago
Reply to  Canopysaurus

I am super curious if existing SuperCharger infrastructure can charge at 800V. That is one of HMG’s biggest selling points right now since it enables much faster charging speeds. If I was HMG, that would be a requirement to pivot to NACS (having 800V support). There are internet theories that V2 or V3 SuperChargers have 800V capability that is laying in wait, but as far as I know, it’s not actually known. That would really put the nail in the coffin for CCS in the US…

RidesBicyclesButLovesCars
RidesBicyclesButLovesCars
1 year ago

Thanks to the internet telling me I’m wrong (thanks internet!), Tesla has released a 1000V capable plug. The previous max was 500V. The new plug is compatible with 500V charge ports on older cars. It’s only a matter if time before new Superchargers are able to support 800V architecture.

I agree with Canopysaurus, Hyundai/Kia will fall next. VW will be last because of EA.

The Bonnie Situation
The Bonnie Situation
1 year ago

Awesome, thanks for the info! Did not know it’s a physically different plug. In your travels, did you find any details on how much of Tesla’s existing infrastructure has the 1000V plug?

Station hardware would still have to have 1000V output capability to go with the plug… wild speculation here, but I assume if a station already has a 1000V capable connector, it would also have 1000V capable hardware.

JaredTheGeek
JaredTheGeek
1 year ago

The 1000V doesn’t exist yet in public, I think the Semi connector does that speed but I have not checked. They have some like 600V in Europe in a single location. The Kia/Kyundai cars can only max out for a short time. The charging curve is much slower so the impact would be minimal on a slower charger. 250 is sufficient today, the V4 superchargers will be better for those higher powered vehicles.

Rumor is that V3 can be converted to support 1000 but that’s rumor for now.

This still does nothing to fix the underlying CCS networks stability. To be fair it’s gotten better in the last few months with power and other upgrades.

The other benefit is the NACS handle is more durable because it doesn’t have a locking lever on it. Like CCS in Europe the lock is in the vehicle and not the handle.

WOV
WOV
1 year ago

Sure can’t. Also note rumors that the v2s don’t work with non-Tesla vehicles, (possibly due to being Tesla / CAN instead of NACS / PLC/ ISO 15118?) and cable reach on most of the deployed fleet is incompatible with charger port location on most GM and Ford vehicles.

Sbzr
Sbzr
1 year ago

just hope that pushes the charging industry to realize reliable fast charging and plug and charge experience should be the way to go, no credit card, token or dedicated app, all that bureaucracy is just annoying

Sensual Bugling Elk
Sensual Bugling Elk
1 year ago
Reply to  Sbzr

There’s a term for Volkswagen’s effort with the Electrify America network: malicious compliance.

The charging stations are placed bizarrely, infuriating to use, and about as reliable as, well, a Volkswagen. That doesn’t scream of serious intent to build out a viable charging network. For all the talk of panel gaps and shitty tablet UIs, Tesla is the only company to get charging reliability and ease-of-use right.

Tesla doesn’t necessarily have the best connector standard, but at this point it might not matter. The average consumer can’t distinguish between SAE and USB connectors, but they do generally understand that the Supercharger network is easily the best in the country for a multitude of reasons.

If using Tesla’s connector standard means the rest of the industry also gets up to Tesla’s charging reliability and ease of use, consider that a win.

Last edited 1 year ago by Sensual Bugling Elk
Goof
Goof
1 year ago

Nailed it.

And even if their net market share ultimately decreases (it will), EV adoption increasing still means it’s easier for Tesla to sell more cars.

There’s also something to be said about mindshare. Every time someone goes to a Supercharger station, they’re going to be surrounded by large prominent Tesla logos all around them. It’s not a huge effect, but I guarantee you it’s measurable.

Drew
Drew
1 year ago
Reply to  Sbzr

No dedicated app would be great, but I’d prefer to see integrated credit card payments rather than just vehicle-as-payment. I can think of enough reasons that relying on the car could become inconvenient (rental, borrowed, using different payment methods for different things, multiple drivers paying for their own use, people not deleting their data when they sell a car, etc.).

Last edited 1 year ago by Drew
Chronometric
Chronometric
1 year ago
Reply to  Drew

And it is that kind of thinking that gave us Electrify America – identify all the use cases and try to cover all of them. That makes it cumbersome and bug-prone. Tesla took the Apple approach – find the 90% use case and make it bullet-proof. People will find workarounds for the other 10% use cases.

Drew
Drew
1 year ago
Reply to  Chronometric

You don’t have to cover all the use cases, but being able to pay at the station via whatever credit card isn’t an edge case. That would cover the 90%, while those who only use cash are screwed however you cut it.

The Tesla model works because it is one make of car communicating with one make of charger. You change that and the comms get much more complicated. Will this station communicate with the Hyundai account? Will there be comm losses between the different services? Sure, a credit card has risks, but it’s a problem we have largely solved, hence paying at the pump working well currently.

Last edited 1 year ago by Drew
Jonathan Myers
Jonathan Myers
1 year ago
Reply to  Drew

Paying at the station with a credit card is an edge case for EV drivers today. Every quick and level 2 charger that I have ever used like Chargepoint uses a RFID tag or a smartphone app to initiate a charge. I’ve had a few minor issues with non-Tesla charging stations but I have 100% success with Tesla’s Superchargers. Based on what I have experienced the payment system Tesla has implemented works better than any other option I have tried. Ultimately you are still paying via a credit card, it is just charged to your account which is tied to your car(s). There is quite simply no more streamlined system that I have experienced. Ultimately adding another failure point like a card reader is just adding more expense and maintenance to the charging infrastructure which increases the costs to the users.

Drew
Drew
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Myers

If you think the communication between the charger and the various vehicle makes isn’t going to be an additional failure point, you are a lot more optimistic than me. I’ve used the apps at a couple different brands of chargers, and that is absolutely not what we need, but I really don’t think I trust various companies’ charging stations to talk to various companies’ cars and those cars’ companies’ payment systems.

SarlaccRoadster
SarlaccRoadster
1 year ago
Reply to  Drew

CAN BUS is a known standard on every single car for decades now. I see absolutely zero issues making charger-to-car comm a universal standard as well, other than carmakers’ will to comply (or lack thereof)

JaredTheGeek
JaredTheGeek
1 year ago
Reply to  Drew

I see EA screens down and no CC processing available all the time, it’s terrible. There are some upgrades happening locally so that may be solved.

Jonathan Myers
Jonathan Myers
1 year ago

As an EV owner in the USA, this GM announcement is really good news. I currently own a Tesla because the Tesla quick charging network makes road trips easy and issue free. No other quick charge network comes close to the reliability of the Tesla system. I used to own a Leaf and that QC network was terrible. With both GM and Ford announcing they will start using the Tesla (NACS) connector it means that I can look at purchasing a GM or Ford in the future and being to reliably charge my car when travelling.

The Bonnie Situation
The Bonnie Situation
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Myers

V curious if this will impact MY24 sales. I am almost ready to make the switch and GM’s upcoming EVs are high on my list. I would 100% wait a year for NACS if it becomes clear that CCS build-out is going to end.

10001010
10001010
1 year ago

Editor’s Note: Yes, but only because people at Chrysler said I looked like Rick Moranis. -DT].

Oh man it’s a good thing I don’t drink coffee or I’d be shopping for a new keyboard this morning. 🙂 🙂

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