Home » No, Car Companies Don’t Design Parts To Fail The Second The Warranty Is Over

No, Car Companies Don’t Design Parts To Fail The Second The Warranty Is Over

Warranty Fail Timing Ts1

For the last quarter century, I’ve been lurking on every forum not only for each car or bike I own, but every car I’ve designed parts for. Mostly it’s to check that I’m not responsible for some series of horrific failures (I’m not! So far…), but I’ve never found one post, not one, praising the elegant and efficient design of a fuel pipe bracket or whatever. Not even the AC pump replacement bracket for the V6 Exige, and that was really neat. What I have found is so many questions that could be answered by reading the manual, so many terrible pieces of advice, so many wrong conclusions, and the one thing that keeps cropping up again.

That thing is the idea that cars are designed to fail the second the warranty runs out. That phrase “designed to fail” really gets to me. I take it very personally when someone suggests that I have deliberately set out to ruin their car the second their eligibility for free repair runs out.

Vidframe Min Top
Vidframe Min Bottom

When we start designing a car we have a set of durability targets that we have to beat. These are never defined as “must fail after,” but instead are “must still exceed this spec at the end of testing.”

[Dave Larkman is a mechanical design engineer who had a 25-year career at Lotus  Cars and Lotus Engineering (the consultancy business that worked for other OEMs), eventually becoming Lead Engineer of Powertrain Design.  He has also been a semi-pro drifter, rides sports bikes, and used to feel ashamed about his taillight collection until he found Jason Torchinsky on the internet. Wait, why am I writing this in third person? It’s me, Dave, writing my own bio. – DL [Ed note within ed note: You know Dave from his excellent article “I Was So Bored At Work I Redesigned A Tiny Engine Part For Fun And Accidentally Saved 22,000 Pounds Of Aluminum.” -DT]]

Many Parts/Systems Are Designed For Conditions Far Tougher Than Your Commute

Screenshot 2026 03 19 At 8.34.51 am
One of these pistons is three years old, the other one is three years and one day old. This is what automotive engineers dream of being able to do, apparently.

A good example is a 1,000 hour idle test on engines. Idling is really tough on engines because at idle, the oil pump is doing its worst work, so any slightly moody bearing surfaces are going to get destroyed. I’ve seen a poorly heat-treated camshaft lobe wear out in just six hours of idling, to the extent the valve wasn’t opening at all, but the pass criteria on that test is that at the end of the test, the bearing faces must still be within the size and surface finish tolerances of a brand new part. As new, at the end of the test.

That test seems weirdly arbitrary, doesn’t it? 1,000 hours is a nice big round number. Engine testing is the result of a thing called Design Failure Mode Effect Analysis (DFMEA), where we sit down before the start of the project, write down everything that might go wrong, work out how severe it is, and how likely. A slight chance of a minor annoyance gets a low score, any chance at all of a safety or emissions issue and it gets a high score. Then we have to work out what testing we’d have to do in order to ensure that the design we come up with won’t suffer from the likely or severe failure modes.

The actual testing regimes are usually whatever we’ve proven to have worked well in the past. A 1,000 hour idle test sounds like something someone thought up because it’s a suspiciously round number, then found that poor parts fail, but good parts will pass. Job done.

Screenshot 2026 04 07 At 10.05.37 am
Image: Chrysler Of Australia

A thermal cycle test is where we run an engine on a dyno at full load until the exhaust manifold is glowing red hot, then we turn off the fuel and spark, but keep motoring the engine at max revs to blow cold air through it, cooling it all down far faster than you ever could by driving it. Then repeat again and again, red hot to room temperature and back again. It’s horrific on exhaust components.

It’s also a 450 hour test, which sounds like the sort of number that’s not just plucked out of the air. Someone at some point either found that 1000 hours of this was impossible to pass despite the parts being OK for production, or that 100 hours was inadequate. Or maybe it’s just how long it takes to do 10,000 cycles. Either way, it tends to fail parts that won’t get failed by any other test, which is why it’s so useful. When your exhaust design stops failing at thermal cycle, you can relax.

Note that the target here isn’t to delay the failure until after the warranty period, it’s so that you can go to court with your DFMEA, drawings, and testing plan and say: We thought of this, we designed a solution, we tested for this, we can prove we took reasonable steps to ensure that this failure wouldn’t happen.

We don’t have an upper target for durability. Cars are almost infinitely repairable; with careful use and the right maintenance, you can get to 500,000 miles on pretty much any car, even one that I’ve worked on. But that maintenance is going to cost, which isn’t going to be acceptable once the value of the car falls below the cost of a new set of spark plugs (which is what happened to one of my old E30 BMWs).

We can make engineering decisions to keep that maintenance cost low, but every time it’s going to increase cost, and probably mass. I worked on an engine on which you could swap out the cylinder liners in half an hour — great for keeping maintenance costs low, but an utter irrelevance for pretty much every car owner on the planet. All engineering is a compromise, and anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something that’s very, very expensive, and also still a compromise.

The liners were made of glass, in case you were wondering; you had to pop them out for cleaning every few minutes of running time.

Screenshot 2026 04 07 At 10.04.29 am

That’s a lot of text in one go, let’s break it up with a picture of some weird engine parts, all of which made it through testing first time without a single issue. Remember folks: Every bracket is already a design failure. (Brackets are inelegant).

These tests cost tens of thousands in prototype parts (look at how much aluminium they had to machine away on that big curved bracket – it started off as a rectangular billet), then more tens of thousands in labor to build, run, strip, and inspect. As a design engineer, you don’t want to waste that much money by getting it wrong, but that’s not the worst part of failing the test – those parts will also be fitted to the rest of the test engines, and test cars — maybe hundreds of them. If your prototype part isn’t durable, then that entire phase of testing can’t be done until you’ve fixed it; the knock-on cost is millions, or tens of millions.

So you do the analysis, you benchmark successful designs, and you hope that everything you design will be good as new at the end of whatever horrific accelerated life testing they throw at it. Sometimes it goes wrong, and there’s a combination of tolerance and assembly and testing that overloads something, or creates a weird resonant frequency, or maybe the guy doing the heat treating put a “before” cam in the “after” pile, but for the most part, you design for success, and expect to get it.

If you have a wacky new idea, you test it on research engines for years before risking it on a production project.

Design Engineer pay isn’t great, so we’d be open to the idea of a massive bonus for creating dealer service work, if such a thing existed. But often we don’t even work for the same OEM as the dealer network. With the amount of consultancy work and badge engineering going on, the link between the people who design your car and the people who will service it is tenuous. In fact, the only dealer feedback we get is “make servicing easy,” which we totally ignore just to infuriate the fifth owner sixteen years later (actually we agonise over that too – I still feel bad about the requirement to use a
crow’s foot to get to one of the inlet manifold nuts on supercharged 2ZZ Exiges, and that was over twenty years ago).

There is no motivation at all to design-in a lifetime limiting feature; it’s bad for us personally, in an immediate being-shouted-at way, and if that failure can cause an engine to stop, or a loss of vehicle control, then we know the guys who risk their lives testing the cars. Sometimes we are those guys.

Screenshot 2026 04 07 At 10.07.04 am
One of these cars on my drive is a carefully disguised prototype, I can’t tell you what of because it’s super secret. Wait, did they really write the name on the side in foot-high letters? Urgh, everything is marketing.

While I always considered it deeply cool to get to do some testing or mileage accumulation, always in the back of your mind is “what if something important fails right now?” The pre-production cars have to pass a huge amount of testing before they’re allowed out in public, but when you’ve spent weeks in DFMEA meetings, it sticks in your head. You really don’t want anything to break, ever.

Designing Parts To Fail At A Specific Time Isn’t Easy

But. What if we were evil? What if there was some kind of incentive to create failures and drive up reliability fear in customers to increase extended warranty sales? Presumably in a way that wouldn’t also utterly tank actual vehicle sales. Could we do it?

I’ve designed parts to fail. They were shear pins, the things that let collapsible steering columns not spear you in the chest, but in my case, they were steel pins half a mile under the sea in an oil well drill pipe. So, I do the analysis, design the notched pins, design the housings to load them in shear, then test a bunch of them and get an unworkably huge range of results. Getting those pins to be strong enough not to break until we needed them to was a nightmare, and that was when we could create an overload to suit us. Trying to get that huge bell curve of actual part durability to start after the right time or number of cycles is pretty much impossible, and for that bell curve to be narrow enough for one of the wheels to fall off a significant number of customers’ cars the day after the warranty runs out is just impossible.

Then you have the problem of the customers’ use case. Say it’s 100,000 miles or three years, are those miles on a track or sat idling in traffic? Are those years parked at the coast going rusty or baking in the sun? Or I guess both if you aren’t in the UK. Designing something to fail in large numbers immediately after that time/distance, but not a minute/mile before, is just impossible when you have no control at all over the environment or customer abuse.

Even if it were possible, which it definitely isn’t, the OEMs would have to test everything not just to exceed the required durability, but then carry on testing to destruction. That would cost hundreds of millions more, and seriously delay the introduction of new designs by years, which would cost hundreds of millions more on top of the hundreds of millions you already spent making the project late, and all for no benefit whatsoever.

It Does Happen, But It’s Not Intentional, And It’s All Just A Compromise

If something goes wrong on your car, just out of warranty or not, it wasn’t intentional. We hoped it would provide so many years of reliable, loyal service that you’d tell all your friends to buy one too. We bet our careers on it. We get paid little enough that we drive fourteen-year-old Toyota-badged Subarus and really could have done without having to shell out for a new wheel bearing again this year; we feel your pain.

Top graphic images: DepositPhotos.com

 

 

 

Share on facebook
Facebook
Share on whatsapp
WhatsApp
Share on twitter
Twitter
Share on linkedin
LinkedIn
Share on reddit
Reddit
Subscribe
Notify of
208 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Rafael
Member
Rafael
1 day ago
Reply to  Dave Larkman

But what if I need you to respond to my “First!” comment right this second? I bet you engineered this trip to coincide with the posting of this article so you would be offline exactly when I PERSONALLY need you the most. How evil of you!
(Jokes aside, thanks, this was an awesome article)

Rafael
Member
Rafael
1 day ago
Reply to  Dave Larkman

Let her know that you have a lot of new fans, and BTW, congrats on the marriage!

1978fiatspyderfan
Member
1978fiatspyderfan
1 day ago
Reply to  Dave Larkman

Duuuuude! You are in so much trouble with your bride. Bad idea

Bite Me
Bite Me
19 hours ago
Reply to  Dave Larkman

We’re trying to reach you about your car’s extended warranty

Sid Bridge
Member
Sid Bridge
1 day ago

I had a friend who was a computer coding genius – he dropped out of college because he was making big money coding video games. He left a company because they actually did ask him to “pre-break” the code so the game would be obsolete in a certain amount of time. He quit instead and went into business for himself, ended up doing even better.

So, yeah… I definitely give engineers the benefit of the doubt because it makes zero sense to try and figure out a way to make parts degrade on a schedule.

Software, however… we’ll see how that shakes out.

Kleinlowe
Member
Kleinlowe
1 day ago
Reply to  Sid Bridge

I’m pretty sure that no software company designs its software to ‘pre-break’ these days. They can just push patches for that.

Mercedes Streeter
Mercedes Streeter
1 day ago
Reply to  Kleinlowe

Don’t be silly, they just release the software unfinished!

Back in my programming days, I worked at a company that bought out a couple of other companies for their assets, namely K12 education programs. Not long after these buyouts, the original developers left the company. Fast forward several years, and it was clear that the original code didn’t age well. But instead of fixing it or developing a new program, we just sort of squashed bugs when the old code bumped into newer operating systems and hardware. Over time, we were basically putting bad code on top of old code and the backend became rather bloated, clunky, and confusing. There were times when the code we wrote to fix one thing broke something else. Also, I know my Java code absolutely sucked. Sorry, schools!

1978fiatspyderfan
Member
1978fiatspyderfan
1 day ago
Reply to  Kleinlowe

Only if you can sell a subscription to the updates. Lol

JJ
Member
JJ
18 hours ago
Reply to  Kleinlowe

Or pencil in the date they will no longer support the software. On a serious note, if it doesn’t already exist, there ought to be laws on either how long software needs to be supported or a disclosure on when the company will stop supporting it. People deserve to know how much they can expect to get out of a product.

Huffy Puffy
Member
Huffy Puffy
1 day ago
Reply to  Sid Bridge

There’s no such thing as good software.

Username Loading....
Member
Username Loading....
1 day ago
Reply to  Sid Bridge

Software has just dropped the charade and makes the software bricked by default unless you continue to pay for the license.

1978fiatspyderfan
Member
1978fiatspyderfan
1 day ago
Reply to  Sid Bridge

Im not an expert at computer stuff, or anything really but didn’t the the software and hardware become obsolete prior to falling due to improvement in computer equipment?

Boosted
Member
Boosted
1 day ago

If someone owned a Lotus Evora, what parts are known to fail, and what should we stock up on?

Littlebag
Member
Littlebag
1 day ago

Ahhhh, this is the good stuff. More enginerd content please.

Lotsofchops
Member
Lotsofchops
1 day ago

Absolutely none of this explains Stellantis. Checkmate.

Bags
Member
Bags
1 day ago
Reply to  Lotsofchops

No, Car Companies Don’t Design Parts To Fail The Second The Warranty Is Over

Is that more accurate?

Lotsofchops
Member
Lotsofchops
1 day ago
Reply to  Lotsofchops

But as a mech engineer myself, though not in auto manufacturing, I sympathize. All the equipment I work on, less than 100 exist for each model number. So I never have to shave 5¢ off a part since they will make millions of them. If we’re building 18 of something, there are no economies of scale really. I can’t imagine the pressure at auto OEMs to try and optimize every little thing.

Littlebag
Member
Littlebag
1 day ago
Reply to  Lotsofchops

I work with some former auto industry manufacturing engineers, they say it’s awful.

Kevin B
Kevin B
1 day ago
Reply to  Lotsofchops

The MBAs have entered the chat. If you shave 5 cents off on one part, and 5 cents off on the thousands of other parts that make an automobile, you’ve saved hundreds of dollars in costs per car. Do you realize what this means for the shareholders?

UnseenCat
UnseenCat
1 day ago
Reply to  Kevin B

MBA-think is a scourge. It drives everything into a race for the bottom, while bilking consumers out of as much of their money as possible. Then the MBAs scrape up the lifeless carcass of the company they’ve extracted every last drop of value from, sell the remains off for scrap and licensing of the name for “zombie” branding, and do it all over again at another company.

Kevin B
Kevin B
1 day ago
Reply to  UnseenCat

Got my MBA in the Nineties, where the mantra was: If you take care of the customers, take care of the employees, then the shareholders will be taken care of. Sadly, that has changed to the scenario you describe. Unfortunately, I know all of their tricks.

UnseenCat
UnseenCat
23 hours ago
Reply to  Kevin B

The MBA programs at various institutions didn’t always teach slash-and-burn management. But it got started in the 80s, and resistance to it slowly dropped off through the 90s until by the 2000s, “MBA-mill” colleges were turning out degree-holders who failed to understand the nuances of business management and instead focused on “maximum shareholder value” (at all costs).

As the market-driven economy accelerated, major shareholders also selected for executives who’d contribute the most toward growing their portfolios faster — and so the entire system began to self-select for those who favored short-term gains over long-term solidity. The entire lifecycle of business grew shorter. Rise fast, pay out in large sums, burn bright and flame out, sell what remains and take the money to seed the process all over again. It works well for the executives and shareholder class, but of course it’s terrible for employees on a rotating layoff treadmill, and consumers who buy products and face a cyclical trend of declining quality and support as companies are bought, sold, merged and aged out of existence at a pace not seen by prior generations.

It doesn’t have to be this way, but it’s the most expedient way to profit. There’s really no way to head it off outside of corporate boards making the conscious decision to run their business focused on long-term growth and stability rather than short-term maximal profits. It would take the external force of regulation to soft-pedal the worst excesses of profit-taking above all else — something that doesn’t appear to be in the cards currently.

UnseenCat
UnseenCat
1 day ago
Reply to  Lotsofchops

Stellantis is a poster child for management ignoring sound engineering and shaving pennies off of everything they can to make a few more bucks per car, reliability be damned. Nearly every major automaker has done it at one time or another, but Stellantis is just consistently blatant about it. (Daimler-Chrysler was close, though…)

Lotsofchops
Member
Lotsofchops
22 hours ago
Reply to  UnseenCat

Yeah I remember this site covering the Tavares stuff. One of the things was terrible supplier relations by trying to squeeze every penny from them for parts, which would also contribute to subpar quality to hit a price point.

Clear Prop
Member
Clear Prop
1 day ago

Do companies design parts to fail right at 100,001 miles? No.

Do they design parts so the slope of the bathtub curve starts somewhere just after 100,000 miles? Yes, to the best of their ability.

Mrbrown89
Member
Mrbrown89
1 day ago

The problem with DFMEA is that is subjective, it matters who is in the team involved when the part was designed and what was decided to put as High, Medium or Low on the Action Priority, its a team decision at the end. If the team wasnt good from the beginning, you know the part will fail somehow. A lot of people use DFMEA as another deliverable but if it was done properly, a lot of things could be capture ahead of time.

The Big 3 love to make changes to the design and each one has to be applied the same DFMEA methodology but sometimes its too late in the process. If they made the changes early in the design phases (prototype/preproduction) like Toyota, they would be able to test everything before vehicles go for sale.

Its funny that I have 1K miles left on my warranty of my Chevy Bolt EUV and the steering gear is starting to fail (a very common issue), I decided to stop driving the car till the appointment.

Great article, thanks for mentioning DFMEA.

Sklooner
Member
Sklooner
1 day ago

When my ex finished her Phd in microbiology she got a job with a local dairy company, they were trying to make their products essentially go bad at the expiry dates- she was really confused as her speciality was bovine reproduction. They took her off that project and she ended up doing a bunch of work for the boss and his side venture which was cattle breeding- which turned out to be financed by siphoning money off from a bank he ran. She remarked that it was a great experience as she always had the latest and greatest equipment and never a budget issue, until they got shut down.

JJ
Member
JJ
18 hours ago
Reply to  Sklooner

Reminds me of all the food scientists hard at work to “design” foods that will override GLP-1s ability to limit appetite and cravings. People with immense talent and training being put to work to make the world worse.

Ben
Member
Ben
17 hours ago
Reply to  JJ

I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised this is happening, but WTF?

JJ
Member
JJ
12 hours ago
Reply to  Ben

Yeah…It’s not like the leadership of frito lay et al are gonna be cool with not making money

Dogisbadob
Dogisbadob
1 day ago

It depends on the car company (or other kinds of products too) 😛

The founder of Lotus once said “if it lasts the whole race it’s too heavy”

I trust Toyota more than I trust any American or Euro car company. The good companies will goodwill it if it fails not too long after warranty. It’s also about how they deal with problems that do arise.

The problem isn’t the engineers; it’s the “executives” that ruin the company (into the ground). Executive boards should be required to consist entirely of engineers, unless the union wants a works council (in which case half would still be engineers, while the other half would be labor)

Don;t forget about the PowerShit DCT Ford used in the Focus and Fiesta to sabotage their small cars. After Ford stopped selling those cars here, they went right back to a regular automatic.

Last edited 1 day ago by Dogisbadob
Box Rocket
Box Rocket
1 day ago
Reply to  Dogisbadob

Are you talking about the same Toyota with the Swiss cheese truck frames, the “unintended acceleration” debacle, failing conventional CVTs (not e-CVTs), and issues with their new truck engines?

They’re better than most, but not flawless. I’d probably put Mazda ahead of them (admittedly on a smaller scale) who do have their own problems, but do a nice balancing act of keeping what works while still pushing for competitive progress.

Dogisbadob
Dogisbadob
1 day ago
Reply to  Box Rocket

Mazda is famous for rusting 😛

In regards to the truck frames, both Ford and Toyota used the same supplier Dana, which gave both companies money when the rust first presented itself, but each company dealt with it differently. Toyota immediately spent the Dana settlement money to fix and replace the frames, while Ford tried to pocket their payout.

Last edited 1 day ago by Dogisbadob
That Guy with the Sunbird
Member
That Guy with the Sunbird
21 hours ago
Reply to  Dogisbadob

What post-Ford Mazda has had rust issues, though? The last generation 6, newer 3, CX-5, etc. (all pure Mazda designs) seem fine. 🙂

But, Mazda has also had some stinkers as of late and they’re named the CX-70/CX-90. Those damn things are phoned in basket cases, and it sucks. They single-handedly brought Mazda down several pegs from the once-high reliability chart ratings they were enjoying.

Phuzz
Member
Phuzz
2 hours ago

Ford and Mazda only divorced ten years ago though, which is barely enough time for bad rust problems to show up.

JJ
Member
JJ
18 hours ago
Reply to  Box Rocket

Where Toyota seems to excel is learning from their mistakes. The ones you cites are serious, however I am confident Toyota will never make a truck frame that rusts from the inside out or a floor mat that can depress the gas pedal. It might all be marketing, but I believe Toyota is a company that takes pride in its products. I have less faith in other OEMs.

Manwich Sandwich
Member
Manwich Sandwich
1 day ago

Great writeup.

I’ve heard of stories where engineers like you do a design that WILL meet durability specs… only for someone higher up to make an ill-advised cost cutting decision that sabotages the durability.

One such case was a story I think I read on Allpar about the design of the 2L 16V engine used in the original Neon. The engineers designed it to use an MLS cylinder head gasket.

Bob Eaton (the same Bob Eaton who became CEO and sold Chrysler out to Daimler-Benz) decided that using an el cheapo cardboard gasket will be ‘good enough’.

And lo-and-behold, those early Chrysler 2L 16V engines had headgasket failures galore… and it only stopped around 1997 or 1998 when they finally started building those engines with MLS head gaskets at the factory.

And all the major companies do stuff like that by varying degrees.

And sometimes it’s not even cost cutting. It’s simply the case of repurposing an existing ‘proven’ design that doesn’t last as well in a new vehicle because the new vehicle is heavier than past vehicles or some other issue like that. I think that was the case with the wheel/wheel bearing assembly failures Toyota had with the early BZ4X/Subaru Solterra.

Or sometimes the design can be solid, but then a supplier has poor quality control… like what happened with one of the bearings in the CVT transmission in the pre-2016 Ford C-Max hybrid/Ford Fusion Hybrid… which would cause premature transmission failure.

Anyway… great writeup!

Last edited 1 day ago by Manwich Sandwich
Dogisbadob
Dogisbadob
1 day ago

You mentioned Subaru, and you mentioned head gaskets, but you didn’t mention Subaru head gaskets 😛

Sorry, I had to!

Manwich Sandwich
Member
Manwich Sandwich
1 day ago
Reply to  Dogisbadob

I’ve never had a problem with Subaru headgaskets.

Of course that’s because I’ve never owned a Subaru.

😉

Mechjaz
Member
Mechjaz
1 day ago

Lucky. I’ve never owned one and still had problems with them.

Rebadged Asüna Sunrunner
Rebadged Asüna Sunrunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Mechjaz

I’ve never owned one, but I’ve accrued benefits from them!
(When my head gasket failed, a Subaru-driving guy from church was very helpful with advice and massive adhesive sandpaper for a self-planing procedure that he was pre-emptively prepared for. So far it seems to be working great, and it saved me a lot of money!)

SegaF355Fan
SegaF355Fan
16 hours ago
Reply to  Dogisbadob

Is this my cue to say how much I wish that Subaru would bring the Levorg over to us? With a manual? No?

Ah, well.

*kicks a pebble as I walk away with my hands in my pockets*

Alpscarver
Member
Alpscarver
1 day ago

Exactly this. Might add decisions from above are sometimes taken without the knowledge of implications, and sometimes it’s done because ‚we always do it this way‘.

That Guy with the Sunbird
Member
That Guy with the Sunbird
21 hours ago

Reminds me of the GM 60-degree V6s and their lower intake manifold gasket debacle. Factory gasket? Plastic. Melts and leaks. Replacement Fel-Pro part? Metal. Does not melt/leak. Solves problem.

Ineffable
Member
Ineffable
1 day ago

Sorry can’t read the article past the headline: “No, Car Companies Don’t Design Parts To Fail The Second The Warranty Is Over”
Now i’m convinced that car companies in fact do design parts to fail.

Reminds me too much of all those jezebel headlines during covid. Snarky, pedantic, and wrong.

Jdoubledub
Member
Jdoubledub
1 day ago

These tests cost tens of thousands in prototype parts (look at how much aluminum they had to machine away on that big curved bracket – it started off as a rectangular billet

Says the design engineer that chose a shape/geometry that necessitated all that waste 😀 Just giving you shit from the purchasing side. If a designer could look at a stock sheet every once in a while, to see what is commercially available (vs theoretically available). I mean technically you could convince a steel mill to make any size in the world for a price.

V10omous
Member
V10omous
1 day ago

The only time I’ve come across something like this in real life as a designer was with an easily broken part that was very expensive to replace (a hand control pendant) and that customer field operators tended to break in creative ways.

As part of an initiative to improve quality, we designed, tested, and engineered a more durable model of the pendant (the testing on this was somewhat humorous), but well into the process a decree came from on high that selling replacements was such a lucrative business that it made up a significant fraction of our parts department revenue. Since the destruction was almost exclusively caused by abuse, this didn’t fall under warranty (we would replace the part if it actually failed from a non-abusive incident). The parts revenue was judged to be much more important than any goodwill from a stronger case, and the new design was scrapped.

86-GL
86-GL
1 day ago
Reply to  V10omous

I’m not a tinfoil hat guy, but I can’t help having this feeling about modern head & tail light units. I love the way they look and function, but damn are they expensive and vulnerable.

Like sure, let’s just put a fragile, $2000 assembly of LEDs and sensors right at the outside corner of every vehicle. Make sure the plastic is nice and fragile, and glue it all together so the lens can’t be replaced. Then, we’ll make the bumpers flush so the light will definitely be the first point of contact!

Hmmm.

Last edited 1 day ago by 86-GL
JJ
Member
JJ
18 hours ago
Reply to  86-GL

I don’t think it’s that conspiratorial. It’s more like “lets make ’em look all shiny and well-integrated” because most people will be swayed to purchase by such baubles and I doubt a new car salesperson has even been asked how much a replacement taillight unit costs.

Joselotas
Member
Joselotas
1 day ago
Reply to  V10omous

This happened to me! Great solution, reasonable cost add for value, move life from 5 to 20 years. Tested in field, works great! Someone in parts and or management gets wind. Are you nuts?!?!. Customer accepts and budgets for 5 years, in what world are you going to give away that value for mostly free? We can’t charge the hem 4x upfront. That’s not how any of this works.

The solution was slick though. Not great for the overall bottom line.

Jon Myers
Jon Myers
1 day ago

I spent 35 years as a mechanical design engineer in the test instrument and medial industries. I can confirm that we always had a minimum life or strength specification in our tests and they were well beyond any warrantee time. The company had a target life and we estimated the number of cycles to meet that life. We cycled or loaded our products to those values with some amount of margin. There were some regulatory tests for minimum strength depending on the consequences of the part failure but we would exceed those. Cost is also a target so you are always balancing cost and life. If a cheaper part or process met the target every company is going with the lower price part. Most of the failures I saw were some combination of the testing not accurately mimicking how the customer uses the product, user abuse, install errors, and defective sub parts that are not caught in final assembly like a lock nut that does not actually lock.

Bags
Member
Bags
1 day ago
Reply to  Jon Myers

As you said –
Your target is to have your life cycle bell curve completely on the positive side of your minimum target. If you did a really good job, you’ll maybe have a couple failures per million parts. And if that isn’t acceptable, you’ll aim higher. That’s common in medical and aerospace – one in a million is too many failures. In automotive, well, that depends. But regardless, you end up with 99%+ of your parts making it well past your target, because that’s how this works.
The issue occurs when the testing was inadequate or there was a quality issue and that bell curve shifts left. Now you have lots of parts failing and the scale of that issue could have major ramifications depending on the severity.

JJ
Member
JJ
18 hours ago
Reply to  Bags

Well said. If aerospace companies accepted one-in-a-million failure rates (in critical systems), we’d have a plane crash every 8-10 days. Most of us cant even comprehend how reliable these parts have to be. And then consider each aircraft has hundreds of thousands or even millions of parts.

Spikersaurusrex
Member
Spikersaurusrex
1 day ago

I don’t believe things are designed to fail, but I do believe that things aren’t designed to last significanty beyond the manufacturer’s warrantee/period of responsibility. If a manufacturer buys a part that will probably last 10 years instead of a part that will probably last 5 years when the warrantee is 3 years, they’re probably leaving money on the table. I don’t mean that the parts will definitely fail at 5 or 10 years, but there are definitley different grades of quality and manufacturers don’t spend where they don’t have to.

Richard Truett
Richard Truett
1 day ago

Sorry, Dave, but I can’t reconcile this:
When we start designing a car we have a set of durability targets that we have to beat.”
With the use of plastic in cooling systems, such as thermostat housings, and timing chain systems.
What do we know of plastic? It doesn’t like heat and chemicals over time.
These parts are installed in engines because they are cheap and good enough in most cases to last through the warranty period.

*Jason*
*Jason*
1 day ago
Reply to  Richard Truett

You are confusing warranty period with design life. The design life for a car and all the components in that car is multiples greater than the warranty but it isn’t forever.

Been out of the light duty segment for awhile but I’d say 15 – 20 years / 200K – 250K miles is a typical lifespan for a car. (Which is double what it used to be in the “good old days)

Footballplaya3k
Member
Footballplaya3k
1 day ago

Good article, I just can’t comprehend how “modern” Hemi exhaust manifolds were approved, let alone passed a 450 hour torture test. 5.7L Rams must have over a 90% failure rate on exhaust manifolds leaking.

Butterfingerz
Butterfingerz
1 day ago

Nissan manifolds are aren’t any better.

Space
Space
1 day ago

They probably didn’t bother testing it at all.

JJ
Member
JJ
18 hours ago
Reply to  Space

It seems that way but that’s impossible. If they don’t test, they open themselves to the possibility of millions/billions of dollars in warranty and legal costs. Even if they don’t care about the consumer, they definitely care about avoiding those costs.

Martin Witkosky
Member
Martin Witkosky
1 day ago

Great article. I agree, but it’s sometimes a remarkable coincidence when things do break right after warranty is over like back when I had my Elise and the AC/Heater Interior Blower Motor Resistor (part # A117P6000S for those curious) went kaput even though service bulletin 2007/01 (Addition of drain holes to HVAC chamber floor) had been performed. Oh well, I just chalked that one up to the simple fact that I just drove my car too damn much. Never had the benefit of being garaged, so always was rained on. Gosh, I miss that car.

Angry Bob
Member
Angry Bob
1 day ago

Here’s one I don’t understand. HVAC blend doors on ’99 – ’04 WJ Grand Cherokees have a 100% failure rate. They probably started coming in for warranty by mid 2000. Jeep never fixed it. They rolled the last WJ off the line in ’04 knowing full well that it would need a $2000 dash-out repair within a few years. I’ve seen GM do the same thing.

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
1 day ago
Reply to  Angry Bob

Their testing probably was along the lines of “How many cycles will it be reasonably expected to endure during the time of the warranty? Round up to the nearest hundred and test for that. That’s good enough.”

Jdoubledub
Member
Jdoubledub
1 day ago
Reply to  Angry Bob

They all fail on Fiesta’s too because of the plastic gears. Thankfully it can be done with small hands and several hours of patience vs pulling the whole dash.

OrigamiSensei
Member
OrigamiSensei
1 day ago
Reply to  Jdoubledub

Small hands and less than an hour with the right stubby 1/4″ ratchet. Just did it on my ST a few months ago. $40 for the part and $20 to buy the stubby ratchet kit. It was a little nerve-wracking at first but I sure was pleased when it worked.

Jdoubledub
Member
Jdoubledub
1 day ago
Reply to  OrigamiSensei

What ratchet? I ended up 3D printing a gnurled bit holder and it still took several hours for my ST.

OrigamiSensei
Member
OrigamiSensei
1 day ago
Reply to  Jdoubledub

STREBITO Right Angle Screwdriver 32-Piece 1/4 Inch Mini Ratchet Set Low Profile Offset Bit Set with 72-Tooth Ratcheting Wrench Stubby Ratchet 90 Degree Screwdriver for Small Spaces
Got it on Amazon. The 72 tooth part is key, 5 degrees per click.

Jdoubledub
Member
Jdoubledub
21 hours ago
Reply to  OrigamiSensei

Ordered as a favor to future me! Arigato, Sensei.

Mechjaz
Member
Mechjaz
1 day ago
Reply to  Jdoubledub

>done with small hands
I’m out

> and several hours of patience
Oh I’m extra out

Bill Hilly
Bill Hilly
1 day ago
Reply to  Angry Bob

Not quite 100%. Sounds like I’ve been lucky with my ’02.

AssMatt
Member
AssMatt
1 day ago

you can get to 500,000 miles on pretty much any car, even one that I’ve worked on

Good one, Dave.

Eggsalad
Eggsalad
1 day ago

I once had the opportunity to have a discussion with a VDO engineer about why the analog odometers in the Volvo 240 (that proudly bore the VDO logo) all tended to fail between 250-350,000 miles. His basic response was, “They tell us what they want and what they want to pay, and what their expectations are. We can build an odometer that will last a million miles, but nobody wants to pay for that.”

So I guess parts aren’t *expressly* designed to fail at a certain point. But manufacturers always have to make compromises.

RC
RC
1 day ago

Thank you for this.

It’d be an interesting read to have somebody write about MTBF and how it’s reviewed/analyzed for parts reliability/durability and iterated on. I think a lot of people believe failure is linear over time, or that it’s a function of time/hours/miles, or that things are made intentionally weak. There’s no point in making a laptop hinge that lasts a million cycles, as the laptop itself will be obsolete well before that; same logic applies to cars.

Username Loading....
Member
Username Loading....
1 day ago

Thank you for this article, people perpetuating this BS is a pet peave of mine. Design life does not mean it is engineered to fail after a prescribed amount of time, it has to last at least that amount of time. I know it’s tempting to say this means they are designing things to break but these targets exist because you have to have some sort of requirement for how long items hold up. If you want them to last forever then your car would be a heavy, slow, inefficient turd. People saying stuff like this always seems to come with a “they don’t make em like they used to” bend to which I will say that cars today are better in basically every measureable metric. They are faster, more efficient, safer, and longer lasting than vehicles have ever been. Not that I don’t like old cars, I’d just never claim they are objectively better.

Huffy Puffy
Member
Huffy Puffy
1 day ago

We are not smart enough to know when a part is really going to fail. And neither is anybody else.

JJ
Member
JJ
18 hours ago

Exactly this. People don’t get there is a cost (literally) to having needlessly overbuilt parts. Like, no one needs a window switch that lasts for 1,000,000 activations. It’s in everyone’s best interest to cut down on the material and design costs to reasonable levels. The issue is we have different definitions of reasonable and it would be nice to have more consumer protections to ensure parts that can easily be made to last the life of the car (like window switches) actually do. Otherwise, yeah, the OEM will happily go for the option that’s 3 cents cheaper and will fail 10 years sooner.

Spikedlemon
Spikedlemon
1 day ago

Is that really true in the case of “Lifetime” airfilters from Ford, or “Lifetime” oil fills from BMW?

Or design choices by JLR to build an entire car around the heater core in hopes that no one will want to change it?

Or (gesturing broadly) VW?

I have my doubts.

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
1 day ago

Great article – however…

“… maintenance is going to cost, which isn’t going to be acceptable once the value of the car falls below the cost of a new set of spark plugs…”

This whole fallacy of “It costs more to fix it than its worth – so buy new” needs to be put to bed once and for all.

When it costs more to fix the old one than it costs to replace the entire car with something newer and of comparable type – That’s when it’s time to replace the old one.

Last edited 1 day ago by Urban Runabout
Jack Trade
Member
Jack Trade
1 day ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

In my experience, this line is often wielded by people looking for a reason to justify an emotion (“I want something else.”)

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
1 day ago
Reply to  Jack Trade

It was originally wielded by US car dealers.

“Oh – so sad Mrs Smith – it’s going to cost $525 to fix your Oldsmobile, which is only worth $475. It’s just not worth it for a worn out old car! But come over here and lets look at the new Oldsmobiles – Why here’s the very same model Mrs Jones just bought last week, and in your favorite shade of blue! I’m sure we can work out a good deal for you – and give you a little extra for your trade-in since you’re such a good customer…”

The tactic worked so well for so many years that you don’t even need the dealer salesman to use it on you anymore!

Last edited 1 day ago by Urban Runabout
Tekamul
Member
Tekamul
1 day ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

When the monthly repair bill exceeds payment on a new ride. Which isn’t that much of a stretch with parts costs. The drop in reliability in 3rd party parts only adds to it.

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
1 day ago
Reply to  Tekamul

$700/month on a @$35K new/preowned car = $8400/year in maintenance.

If you’re paying that much in maintenance and repairs in a year – Yeah, a newer vehicle is certainly the way to go.

Phuzz
Member
Phuzz
2 hours ago
Reply to  Tekamul

The maths works out differently if you don’t like debt and buy cars outright.
If I have a £500 repair on my £2000 car, I’m more thinking about “do I like this car enough to keep it on the road”, and “do I have enough savings to just get another £2k car?”. I’ve never sold a car, just used them until they’re worth zero.

*Jason*
*Jason*
1 day ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

A. Most people simply do not think that way.
B. If you do fix anything that doesn’t cost more than buying a new car over time you will spend as much as a new car fixing your old car – and you are still driving an old car when you could be driving a nicer new car.
C. People here tend to forget that most people do not have the skills, tools, or space to fix their own car. Where I live even independent shops are charging $175 per hour.

For me there is a sweet spot to replace a daily driver that is between 10-15 years old and 150 – 200K miles. It isn’t so much the cost of repairs but the hassle.

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
1 day ago
Reply to  *Jason*

I certainly don’t have the space or time to fix my own car…
…but using myself as an example: When the annual maintenance bills on a 17 year old Mercedes-Benz convertible worth under $3K (according to Car Fox) are in the $2000-3000/year range – a CPO one is in the $40K range – and payments on a @$35K car are in the $700/month range – it’s basic math which tells us that it makes sense to keep the old one running.

*Jason*
*Jason*
1 day ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

Curious – is this car a daily driver? What do you do when the car is in the shop multiple times per year getting something fixed.

I’ve never played around in that price of car. Highest car payment I’ve ever had was $350

Space
Space
1 day ago
Reply to  *Jason*

I can’t speak for him but when my daily breaks down I just use one of my other cars until I fix it.
Really takes the stress out of wrenching when there is no deadline.

*Jason*
*Jason*
1 day ago
Reply to  Space

The typical family does not have extra cars.

(I’m one of the odd ones as until recently we had 4 cars and 4 motorcycles for 2 of us. Down to 3 / 3 now and working towards 1 and 1 by the end of summer)

It is important to remember that the typical person here on The Autopian is nothing like the typical car buyer.

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
17 hours ago
Reply to  *Jason*

It’s my daily.
It goes in for annual maintenance every year/10,000 miles. It’s been known go in for a separate service if something else comes up, but to this point that’s only been one more time per year.
*knock-wood*
And when it’s in the shop, I get a loaner from the dealer.

Last edited 17 hours ago by Urban Runabout
*Jason*
*Jason*
16 hours ago
Reply to  Urban Runabout

Dealers that still have loaners? Wild. Around here they will order you an uber to get home. At least that is my experience from the last 2 recalls that took me into a dealer.

Urban Runabout
Member
Urban Runabout
17 hours ago
Reply to  Dave Larkman

I wish I could find a nice E30 driver for $100-200 USD.

That’s more like a $5000+ car on this side of the pond.

Oberkanone
Oberkanone
1 day ago

My HP Printer knows when the warranty is over.

Bags
Member
Bags
1 day ago
Reply to  Oberkanone

This is why I don’t trust smart devices and never set clocks on appliances. I don’t need them knowing how old they are….

Red865
Member
Red865
1 day ago
Reply to  Oberkanone

I think some of the ink cartridges actually have a chip in them…and the ‘time out’. Also tells the printer not ‘genuine’. Had these problems with big HP plotter that we rarely used the color in.
I also think is not a coincidence that our HP desktop work printer uses up all of the black and color ink within a few days of each other, even though we print almost exclusively in black. Hmmm.

JJ
Member
JJ
18 hours ago
Reply to  Red865

Are you implying printer manufacturers rely on a shady business model? I for one will not stand for such slander! (/s)

1 2 3
208
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x