I get a little bit of a chill every time I see the average transaction price (ATP) cresting $50,000. Some of this is the natural emotional response to the price of cars crossing into a new five-digit realm. The better part of my reaction, though, is my fear that people will misunderstand what ATP means in the context of the larger market.
Yup, it’s another Morning Dump where I try to make clear what the ATP movement does and does not mean. There’s a way to look at this latest increase as a sign that the market is leveling off a bit. Maybe. There’s also a fun quirk in the data I’ve been wondering about and I finally have an explanation. The market certainly needs more affordable cars, whereas automakers want more profitable cars, and Ford just hired someone who can hopefully help with both.
Will Stellantis actually be able to sell its Canadian plant? The government seems a little upset about the move.
The K-Shaped Car Market Is Still K-Shaped
Here’s the graphic I always show when ATP comes up, via Kelly Blue Book, showing incentive spending versus transaction price across the market in the United States:
A little inflation isn’t a bad thing, and you can see the seasonality of the car market, as well as the general upward trend, leading right up to the pandemic. I covered this in great detail in my trimflation article, but a semiconductor shortage led automakers to prioritize higher trim models and more profitable products (like fancy trucks). Automakers, facing a supply squeeze, also dropped incentive spend to modern lows.
While incentive spending has rebounded, ATP has remained stubbornly high, and has crossed the statistically unimportant but psychologically significant $50,000 barrier a few times. The October ATP of $51,109 is a new October record.
What’s going on here? There are plenty of barriers to automakers lowering the prices of their own cars, including persistent tariffs, increased input costs due both to tariffs and energy costs, and just the general increase in pricing of everything. I think that’s why prices have stayed higher than maybe expected. The bump in price, though, I think goes back to a revelation automakers and consumers had, which is that people want bigger and nice cars.
Crazy talk, I know.
Even if automakers offer cheaper cars, people are buying the expensive ones, which forces the average ever upward.
Cox Automotive’s Erin Keating touches on this:
“The average is telling us as much about product mix as it is about affordability. Three of the five highest-volume segments transacted significantly below the industry’s $51,109 average, while vehicles priced from roughly $28,000 to $38,000 collectively gained 9.6% in volume year over year. Consumers are still buying plenty of vehicles well below the headline average transaction price, even as strong demand for full-size pickups and other larger, well-equipped vehicles keeps pushing the average to new highs.”
There are a lot of great, affordable cars for sale if you want to spend under that headline number. The thickest part of the car market right now is Compact SUV/Crossover, and the ATP for those is $37,895. Plus, prices historically go up by a lot in October, and they only went up by a little, which is another sign that there’s just only so much room for prices to grow.
A good example of what’s happening might be the Chevy Trax. The base model has been dropped, meaning that the price of the car has gone up significantly if you just look at the entry-level cost. However, GM has made the case that few people actually purchased the base model (I drove a near base model and liked it), and by combining the packages that people actually purchase, they’ve really lowered the cost of the car for most people.
Bottom line: You don’t need to pay $51,000 to buy a nice new car. There are plenty of great vehicles lower than that, and if you have a good trade-in or a decent amount of money for a down payment, you’ll probably be fine.
The Mystery Of The Subcompact Car Solved
Along with the topline average, Cox Automotive also sends out breakdowns for automakers (Stellantis is up the most year-over-year, whereas Mercedes-Benz group is down the most) and categories. There’s not a huge amount of variance when looking at the main categories (entry-level luxury car is up 3.0%, pickup trucks are up 1.2%, et cetera).
One category has seen a huge increase, and it’s been this way for the last few months:
Do you see what I see? Subcompact Car jumped by a wild 49.5% year-over-year from $25,707 to $38,423. I initially tried to reverse engineer what happened, and assumed it was the exclusion or inclusion of a specific model. According to Cox, it’s sort of both.
The category, which once included vehicles like the Ford Fiesta, Mitsubishi Mirage, and Nissan Versa, is now down to mostly just one vehicle: the Mini Cooper. A Cox Automotive spokesperson confirmed that the category would be removed in future updates because “one-car segments are not segments worth including.”
Ford Snags Ex-GM Exec Marissa West To Lead Product
It’s not necessarily fair to use an almost 10-year-old photo of someone to announce they switched jobs, but I did find this image of Ford’s new VP of Vehicle Programs, Marissa West, kind of fun, and it demonstrates how much hands-on experience she has in vehicle development. It seems to be a photo of some sort of vehicle evaluation of a Buick from her old job at General Motors, where she served in various product planning roles as the Detroit Free Press explains:
She spent 21 years at General Motors starting off as an engineer and progressing through several leadership positions in vehicle sales, service and marketing, as well as product development. West was president of GM Canada from 2022 to 2024 before being moved to senior vice president and president for North America where she remained until she left GM later that year in 2024.
Well, it’s either vehicle evaluation, or West owned the world’s biggest iPod.
Ford is planning to launch a ton of new products, so this is an extremely key role, as Ford explains in its own release:
Ford expects to refresh 70% of its global vehicle portfolio by volume by 2029 and West’s appointment strengthens the company’s leadership overseeing the development and delivery of its next generation of vehicles.
“Marissa brings deep experience leading vehicle programs, integrating complex products and delivering successful launches,” said Sam Basile, Ford vice president of Advanced Product Development, Cycle Planning & Programs. “Her leadership and product-development background will be valuable as we work across teams to bring great vehicles and experiences to customers.”
New Ford Aerostar when?
Canadian PM Calls Stellantis Move A ‘Betrayal’
Yeah, so the Stellantis plan to sell its Brampton factory to defense company Roshel isn’t going so well, even as the company says it’s going to pay back the money it got from the government to retool the plant to make Jeeps.
“Stellantis is failing to respect their commitment to the workers of this plant and also to the Canadian government,” Prime Minister Mark Carney told reporters in Montreal Nov. 10.
He categorized the automaker’s actions as a “betrayal” of the plant’s workforce and said Ottawa will “fully enforce” its rights to protect workers.
Stellantis, Unifor and Canadian and Ontario government officials are set to meet Nov. 12 to discuss the Brampton plant.
Unifor has framed the sale, which comes amid the ongoing Canada-U.S. trade war, as an existential crisis for Canada’s auto sector.
That’ll be a chill meeting, for sure.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
Here are a bunch of words that are extremely Millennial-coded: This is Shaggy on The Late Late Show with Craig Kilborn. It’s Veterans Day and Shaggy served in the Marine Corps in Kuwait, so it seemed like a good way to combine our week’s theme with the day. We’re going to be having a half-day, so there may be fewer posts than usual.
The Big Question
What’s the best subcompact car ever sold in the United States?
Top photo: Stellantis/Cox
TBQ: I guess I’ll add to the Honda Fit love since I own one.
And the best subcompact made in America would be the original Chevy Bolt.
Right there with you on the Fit love. Absolutely love my 12 year old, 108k miles EX that’s taken us to 41 states.
“Even if automakers offer cheaper cars, people are
buyingBEING PUSHED TO the expensive ones, which forces the average ever upward.”FIFY
“Canadian PM Calls Stellantis Move A ‘Betrayal’:”
Yup… because they essentially Bent The Knee to Crooked Trump and then bullshitted about it for 3 years before this announcement.
“What’s the best subcompact car ever sold in the United States?”
In my view, it’s a tie between the Prius C and the Honda Fit.
How are people “PUSHED” to a more expensive car?
I’m sorry but people have to take responsibility for their own actions when they walk past the Civic to buy a Pilot.
The Fit and Prius C were compact cars. (One of the reasons the subcompact class is gone is that even “small” cars got big)
When I read his comment, I took it to mean he was referring to how dealerships rarely order base trims. When I go to a dealership it’s mostly comprised of mid and upper level trims. Dealerships make higher margins on higher trim levels so they are incentivized to order trims/vehicles with a higher ATP.
While I agree people should take responsibility for their decisions and understand when buying a new car they could order what they want and wait for delivery, that’s not the reality for many sales. I wonder if dealerships made the same profit margin on a base trim as a top tier if that would change what they order.
I’ve heard dealers don’t order base trims but that has not been my experience. There are 49 Corolla LE’s within a 50 mile drive of my house right now. Today someone can drive away with a brand new car for less than $25K including fees. Or they can walk past that Corolla and spend $50K – $65K on a Grand Highlander.
Dealers order trims that sell and turn on the lot.
Without knowing how many SE and XSE are in that same 50 mile drive, it’s not the most useful metric…
Why? Base models are on the lot available to buy today if someone wants to buy a base model.
You think 49 models available within 50 mile radius would be ample for a city of 10M? No, of course not. That could show an extremely tight market. Just on face value, 1 vehicle per ~160 sq. miles sounds very low.
Why are you so hesitant to share how many SE and XSE models are available? And why are you implying that more information is not useful?
“When I read his comment, I took it to mean he was referring to how dealerships rarely order base trims.”
Bingo!
How are people “PUSHED” to a more expensive car?
Disagree. I guess the three-odd years of pandemic car sales have already been forgotten, let alone the unending dealership games. Ever try to buy a regular cab F-150?
The pandemic shortage was a blip. It also doesn’t explain people buying $50K crossovers instead of a $25K sedan.
I have not personally tried to buy a regular cab F-150 but my father-in-law has only driven base model regular cab, long bed, 2WD F-250’s for decades. When he wants a new one he goes into the Ford dealer and orders one.
ohhhh noooo haha don’t make me buy a way nicer car that I will be happier with for only $4k more nooooo you’re really forcing me to do this :,^(
TBQ: 2nd gen Fit. Loud and annoying on the highway, but beyond that it does the business better than any competing subcompact.
Although, those first-gen Versa hatchbacks with the 4spd auto were really nice; rode better than the Fit and were quieter and had more plush interiors. No idea if they held up well, though.
I had a 09 versa hatch from 2017-2021. My budget was quite low at the time. I test drove a fit too, but the seat didn’t scoot back far enough for me, and it had way more miles. My versa had the 4 speed. The interior was pretty decent, good seats and roomy enough for its size. If you removed the back seats, it could haul a washer no problem. The fit certainly would have gotten a few better mpg, but I didn’t really fit in the fit.
Heard an NPR story on this new $51,000 average price. It took them far too long to get to the part where consumers are choosing to spend $51,000 because they want BIG, they want STUFF, and are passing up less expensive alternatives, financing it at high rates and long loans, and then acting as if this choice means vehicles are too expensive.
But at least they did get to that point and elaborated on it.
What’s the best subcompact car ever sold in the United States?
Dodge Neon ACR
I wish I could like this more than once. Would you believe that I have owned 5 ACRs, including the car from the cover of the Mopar Performance book on neon modifications? It’s true, I swear. I don’t own an ACR these days, but I do endurance race a ’98 neon set up well beyond the ACR specs.
That is freakin awesome!
Subaru Justy
4WD and 40+ MPG
I’m partial to the daihatsu charade, the much later yaris and xd were very decent and
under rated.
Shaggy is a marine veterans day tradition for some that served in and around that era. I was just with some last night at bar and they had to play it. They did a karaoke version for a number of years.
QOTD: Best subcompact ever sold in the US was the EG generation Civic.
Absolutely bulletproof cars that were exceptionally high value vehicles. I had a ’94 EJ coupe; absolutely wonderful car.
Interestingly enough, I simply don’t buy new vehicles – and my last two USED vehicle purchases add up to less than the $51k a current single new average car/truck costs.
This is insanity.
Matt, you described the problem with only reporting the average. It would be helpful if the variance and/or standard deviation was reported, but I think most people’s eyes would glaze over. I recommend always including the median as well as the average. I think it’s more useful (and easier for most people to understand) than average alone.
Yeah, at least give us the median!
TBQ: The Honda Fit is the obvious answer. I know there are lots of reasons why the Fit and other subcompacts were taken off the market, but how does Honda not notice 2018 Fits with 65k miles being listed for $20k? I reject the notion that there isn’t demand in the segment. So what is it? Greed? If it were greed, they’d want to sell more cars, which would mean selling the Jazz they already make stateside. Maybe I’m missing something.
If something happened to my Fit I’d pony up a good chunk to replace it.
But it IS freaking me out, Matt!!!
I’m FREAKING OUT, MATT!!!
I read this in Kristen Schaal’s voice as “Mel” in “Flight of the Conchords.”
Nope. Super Troopers.
“I’m freaking out Matt.”
TBQ: VW Beetle and 1st Gen Honda Civic w/CVCC.
TBQ: CRX, unless the delSol or Fiero count as subcompact.
“The Big Question:What’s the best subcompact car ever sold in the United States?”
I’ll go with the first generation Geo Metro 2-door, 5-speed.
Less that $6K, fun to drive, and 50 mpg. Available at Chevy/Geo stealerships so you didn’t have to drive 100+ miles for service like you would for a Japanese car at the time. (even though it was a rebadged Suzuki)
I love that, seemingly without fail, at every American car show filled with ‘Vettes and Chevelles and Mustangs, there are always one or two minty fresh Geo Metros, usually in yellow. What other subcompact does that happen with?
A more instructive breakdown may be a sales chart plotting sales volume/vs list price in 5 or 10k increments. Then superpose it with a plot of model counts in that same price range. I realize this will be VERY sloppy on the last part with options, etc… My question is: Is ths consumer driven or industry driven?
ATP *can* tell us something about the average cost of a new vehicle. But it can *also* tell us about *who* is buying new vehicles. People with financial security can buy new vehicles, and they tend to favor the fancier ones. People without financial security aren’t buying cars, or they’re buying used cars. That’s plenty good enough to skew ATP figures.
So… How does the used car business look?
Previous article mentioned that dealer-certified vehicles were at a premium due to demand.
Given the lack of 3-4yo used cars due to the pandemic supply problems I can only imagine.
This, very much this. If you have the money at all for a new car, you likely have plenty of money and want something nice.
If you don’t, you probably don’t have the money for even the cheapest new car, when you can buy an entirely adequate used one for half the price. The people who buy the cheapest new cars are mostly just cheapskates or in weird situations like my Mother. Reality is she could have had any car she wanted within reason, but the base + tech pkg KIA Soul fit her needs perfectly for ~$20K four years ago. *I* absolutely would have bought something nicer used, but her car problems are MY car problems, so her having a new car with a long warranty was MUCH more important than it would be if it was MY car. There aren’t enough of her to make cheap new cars a viable business model.
In some cases, people with financial security buy new or used base vehicles that meet their needs and not their wants. This is why they have financial security.
I think we may be a shrinking minority these days.
Stellantis. Let me count the ways.
Roshel being based on the HD Ford, now being built nearby in Oakville sounds like it’s a a win for someone (Oakville, for Matt’s sake, is a city on the complete opposite end of Lake Ontario from Oswego NY, a town that is 1/10 the size of Oakville)
Just in case anyone is reading this going, “Oswego, NY? What’s that place?”
Well, it probably most famous for having a the college that Al Roker graduated from, where he notable got a communications degree and not a BS in meteorology or atmospheric science, which is why he’s a weatherman and not a meteorologist.
Weather Wuss
There’s a nuclear coffee pot there too. For reasons. Probably to supply Syracuse with piping hot coffee during lake effect season. And make funny looking landlocked salmon.
Oswego. Where it is not unusual to have to shovel out a canyon between your front door and your car, in snow so high yo can only see a ribbon of sky.
Before Al Roker in NYC there was Dr. Frank Field, who was a meteorologist for the Air Force in WW2, but then received a doctorate in optometry before going back to TV as a science and weather reporter. Two of his children became meteorologists on NYC TV stations, one who was named Storm.
Weather wuss’s unite!
Adjusted for inflation that $51,000 ATP today is $3000 lower than the 2023 price.
we are just living in a compounding inflation life.
Sure would be nice if my wages kept up with that inflation curve….
Yea, I’m glad I switched jobs a little before that, my old job now only makes about 10% more than the 2019 pay. Ouch.
A little inflation isn’t a bad thing
That’s just like, your opinion, man. Inflation is always a bad thing.
Ending the Federal Reserve would do a lot toward combating it. If deflation becomes so much that it’s a problem, then start wiping away debt.
Maybe. Other countries certainly had far worse inflationary problems with no federal reserve.
Look at France. Part of their problem is that they can’t manage their monetary policy independantly from the EU.
A problem for nearly every member of the EU that uses the Euro.
Well, the Federal Reserve is a central bank, most countries have some form of central bank (even the Eurozone countries like France and Germany still do, even though they’re obviously no longer directly involved in monetary policy)
Without control of monetary policy, there’s very little a country can do to control inflation. The US economy has shown incredible resilence and stability since the founding of the Fed. We just never see how much worst things could have been.
Reminds me of that famous quote “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”
The best form of government is probably enlightened despotism. Unless you disagree with the despot, of course – but that’s a you problem, LOL. And they are hard to come by, since absolute power corrupts absolutely. Letting the great unwashed rule by vote is like letting a group of sheep and wolves figure out what’s for dinner.
Reality is that unless you are governing Stepford, whatever you do is going to make part of the population happy, and another part pissed off. Which in modern day America seems to be about 49:51 and who know which way it swings for any given issue or area.
It’s really not. It is one of the things that makes mortgages and other long-term lending viable. You pay a mortgage in constant dollars (assuming a fixed rate), but those dollars get smaller over time, which helps considerably.
IMHO, if your wages aren’t AT LEAST keeping pace with inflation, that’s a YOU problem. I made 4X as much money when I paid off the mortgage on my house in Maine as I did when I took it out… Inflation was not anything like that high.
That’s fine for people with mortgages, good credit and no concern for debt, not so great for people with no mortgages, bad credit and who would prefer to save their money rather than risk it.
Those loan takers are also highly motivated to become rabid NIMBYS to protect their “investments” and exacerbate the housing crisis.
IMHO, if your wages aren’t AT LEAST keeping pace with inflation, that’s a YOU problem.
And that’s all it is, your opinion. Which I do not agree with in the least.
Opportunities are not equally available and in my own experience the lucrative nature of those opportunities can be vastly overblown by unscrupulous educators and employers to swell tuition coffers and depress compensation with an oversaturated labor market.
It’s not an opinion, it’s reality, and Economics 101. <shrug> Inflation has been a thing since it took more and more chickens to barter with 5000 years ago. Low and steady inflation is good for the economy. Hence the Fed’s 2% target.
I believe we have had the wage discussion before. If your pay isn’t keeping up with inflation, what are you doing to make yourself more valuable in the workplace? Are you putting in the effort to find a better paying job? Or is it just “woe is me” while you float along through life taking the easy path? Zero sympathy from me for that, and if it’s your choice that’s perfectly fine, but I don’t want to hear the whining about it.
Inflation has been a thing since it took more and more chickens to barter with 5000 years ago.
That’s deflation since chickens are a commodity, not a currency. And inflation is certainly not inevitable as the consumer electronics industry has demonstrated for several decades now. Its an artifact of a monetary policy made by people who gain from it. Same with real estate which is inflated by unsustainable population growth, immigration, selfish RTO policies and even more selfish NIMBY cock blocking of construction projects.
Low and steady inflation is good for the economy. Hence the Fed’s 2% target.
So says the people who stand to gain from inflation. Strange that.
If your pay isn’t keeping up with inflation, what are you doing to make yourself more valuable in the workplace? Are you putting in the effort to find a better paying job?
Like what? Be specific.
If you are using chickens to pay for something, then chickens are currency. Doesn’t matter if it’s live stock, shiny pebbles pounded flat, or paper money. If you are trading it for something of value, it’s currency of a sort.
That SOME things get cheaper over time is neither here nor there – inflation is an *average* of the cost of goods, not an absolute. And of course, exactly how it is measured is subject to heated debate. The US government uses a defined basket of goods – and it has changed what is in that basket numerous times. And even then, it’s not a simple shopping list, it’s weighted averages across categories that make up an overall average.
Get more education. Take on more responsibilities. Change careers. Move to a different area where you skills will be in more demand. Just plain work harder so as to shine above your coworkers. Deeply lick the boss’s ass if you have to. Do the actual hard work of finding a better job if the one you are in currently has a ceiling or simply isn’t recognizing your contributions. Is this really so hard to comprehend? I am guilty of this myself – I stagnated in my previous job for far too long – though that was because I really enjoyed it (at the time, in hindsight dear Dog what was I thinking?) which made the relatively crappy pay far more bearable. But when a better opportunity presented itself, I worked my ass off to take advantage of it, and continue to due so going on 20 years later, which is why they continue to increase my pay rather more than the rate of inflation. I become more valuable every year as my experience increases across a wide variety of technologies. Which is damned hard work keeping up with as I get older, but I do.
But I learned with my first professional job that one thing I absolutely WILL NOT do is stay in a job I hate for ANY amount of money.
If you are using chickens to pay for something, then chickens are currency.
By that reasoning whatever a merchant is trading for currency is also currency.
Get more education.
I have a doctorate. I’m already overeducated.
Take on more responsibilities.
Did that. More work for no more pay. Learned my lesson. Gotta show me the money first.
Change careers.
Sigh. Frying pan to fire.
That’d be starting at the bottom, competing for jobs with younger people who actually knew what they were doing. And vanishingly few employers are willing to tolerate a new hire who can’t hit the ground running.
FWIW I did try that once. I tried banking after I had spent over a year fruitlessly looking for a job in my field as a new graduate. I spent months trying to get up to speed while also spending 1 1/2-2 hrs commuting each way, thankfully mostly on public transit. It was exhausting.
I was lucky in that my boss was also my BIL and willing to put up with my uselessness. I’d never would have had that opportunity without his charity though. Thankfully I got out before SHTF in 2008.
But when a better opportunity presented itself
And THAT is the critical point! The opportunity has to exist. I got lucky to land my first non-bank job but I spent years searching.
For a hundred resumes sent to posted jobs that were at least an 80% fit for my skills I got the barest courtesy of a reply on maybe 3 of those. Even recruiters who I considered reasonably competent had a hard time. When I have sent unsolicited resumes I got absolutely zero replies. That was a complete waste of time. That’s hundreds of hours wasted for absolutely no return. I ain’t doing that again.
The back door isn’t much better. Networking has usually consisted of people looking to ME for better opportunities.
Is this really so hard to comprehend?
No. It’s hard to make it real.
I worked my ass off to take advantage of it, and continue to due so going on 20 years later, which is why they continue to increase my pay rather more than the rate of inflation. I become more valuable every year as my experience increases across a wide variety of technologies. Which is damned hard work keeping up with as I get older, but I do.
Good for you. Not everyone gets presented with such an opportunity or is able to make the hard sacrifices to take advantage of it or finds the juice often isn’t worth the squeeze.
I don’t know what to tell you. I guess it just sucks to be overeducated you. I certainly am not using either my undergraduate accounting degree or my JD, yet I am doing just fine and love what I do. <shrug>
You can also just decide to be happy with your lot in life – that is always a viable option.
Unfortunately happiness for me is to be independently wealthy. Like embarrassingly, disgustingly wealthy. A life of mansions, jetsetting, yachts, etc. Got any leads for a job like that? 😉
(And please not World Financial Group, a totally legit MLM that a few of my more desperate colleagues transitioned into. That one kept coming up. Ugh!)
Best subcompact in the US is the MINI Cooper. It’s the one subcompact that non-car, and non-thrifty people actually want. Other contestants include the Scion xB and the Kia (back) Soul. Yes, others like the Honda Fit are better, but they don’t make the subcompact class cool and desirable to non-car, non-thrifty (practical?) people.
Except that they are often miserably terrible cars.
I owned a first year MINI Countryman and it needed serious brake work after less than 11 months. I got rid of it after less than 2 years. I can confirm they are terrible to own. But random people would take pictures of it, and I caught several people taking selfies in front of it.
But especially when the MINI Cooper first came to the US all those years ago, many of my non-car friends seriously wanted one.
So yeah, MINIs are cool cars to non car people.
Not per the people I know who actually own them. They are not Corollas, but thankfully, they are not Corollas. I don’t see the point of a car that is both reliable and absolute misery in equal measure. Life is too short.
Honda Fits aren’t cool? 2 words: MAGIC SEATS.
Honda Fits are amazing cars. Very good cars. Very practical. Very reliable. Very thrifty.
But not very cool.
I owned a first year MINI Countryman. People took pictures of it, people went out of their way to take selfies in front of it. It was a terrible car, but it was cool.
I think my Elroy is cool and lots of folks seem to agree with the compliments it gets.
Disagree. MINI Countryman is flash cool, Fit is cult classic cool. It’s 1962, Peter O’Toole is cool, very cool, Lawrence of Arabia cool. Robert Redford is also cool, gets acclaim from insiders for his role in War Hunters. The Fit is a lot more likely to have changed the industry than the Countryman.
Also, the Honda fit is a subcompact car. The Countryman is a compact cuv.
Was a 1970s-80s Rabbit/Golf a subcompact? Those were great.
Yup, as was the Jetta. Which got my vote because my ’84 Jetta GLI was one of the very best cars I ever owned. Both in ownership and entertainment value.
I still love an miss my 78 rabbit that got me through college.
That was my Jetta as well. Most of college and grad school, and passed it back and forth with my best friend for a decade after. To the tune of nearly 400K before the tinworm finally got it. It replaced an ’85 2dr Jetta that I had for four years that was also an excellent car, but was not as fun and didn’t have A/C.
Best subcompact? Anyone who doesn’t answer “Honda Fit” is wrong.
I would accept, also, the Honda Jazz.
Or the Honda Barber Shop Quartet
Used fits are a fortune where I live. I have not checked to see if they are selling for more then they did when new but is it wild.
The Honda part is right, but I think the answer is really 4th gen (or perhaps 5th) Honda Civic. These cars were normal cars that were absolutely everywhere and you could get them in any body style you wanted. Hatch. Sedan. Wagon.
The Fit is an absolutely tremendous car but it was more niche appeal than the Civic.
The Fit was never a subcompact. Far too large inside.
The Fit seems to be classified as a subcompact by every site that a quick Google turned up.
Though IMHO, the classifications are somewhat arbitrary and silly, especially right at the margins, even though they have a technical definition by interior volume (measured HOW though?). A Fit certainly had a ton of *usable* space thanks to the clever interior layout, interior height, and those sliding rear seats, more than some nominally larger cars. Something shared with the Renault Twingo of a decade earlier, which also had “Tardis-like” interior space for a very small car. They were basically a 3-door Fit. And much, much, much cooler, IMHO.
Those would be “market class” sizes which have no definition. It is whatever the authors says it is. Most of those still say the Civic is still a compact even though it is larger than a 90’s Accord.
EPA classifies by interior volume and classes have ranges that haven’t changed for decades.
85 to 99 cu ft = Subcompact
100 to 109 cu ft = Compact
110 to 119 cu ft = Midsize
120 or more = Large
This is called out in 40 CFR § 600.315-08 – Classes of comparable automobiles. Both the classes and how to measure. To get the full methodology you will need to pull a SAE standard.
The Fit has 111 cu ft of interior room. It is classified by the EPA as a small station wagon.
Yes, that is my point. While *technically* this just meets the definition of midsize – literally the entire world doesn’t agree with that, even if it is technically correct by that EPA standard. The best sort of correct can still not matter much at all.
Shrug ….. It seems most of the world is fine with 32 inch waist pants actually measuring 34 inches too.
A “standard” without defined definitions is meaningless.
This conversation was brought up because Cox is no longer going to report numbers for the subcompact class because the Mini 2-door is the only one left on the market. (And it actually is a subcompact @ 94 cu ft). The Mirage and Versa were compacts when they left the market.
But ultimately the question posed is – what’s the best really small car? And the Fit IS a really small car no matter what technical classification it has due to a design that makes it a highly usable tall box on wheels. And it is certainly the sort of thing that many might well compare to a MINI and cross-shop.
The Fit is absolutely a valid answer to that question, it’s a very small car with tremendous interior space. Yet another car I respect greatly with zero desire to own though.
The Fit is a great car. It puts a lot of interior room in a small footprint. Same passenger room as a Civic and more cargo space.
A lot of that is the form factory more than just Honda’s design genius. Hatchbacks / Wagons are simple a more space efficient form factor than sedans.
I couldn’t agree more – brilliant cars. Shame that the small/tall (but LOW to the ground) boxy car isn’t more of a thing in the US.
I have never gotten the desirability of sedans at all (at least smaller than battlecruiser class), and have generally regretted those that I have owned vis-a-vis the hatch or wagon version. Never bought one new, and likely never would.
I’m very partial to the Ariel Atom, Lotus Elise, Alfa Romeo 4C, Triumph GT6, Opel GT, MGB GT, Datsun 240Z, Toyota MR2, Porsche 356, Porsche Spyder, and similar.
They could all be improved upon with better aerodynamic streamlining, and higher displacement engines.
Probably the Bentley Continental GT.
Yes, probably.
LOL – showing how silly these classifications can be, even if absolutely accurate by technical definition.
Best sub compact sold in America? Probably the Fiesta ST or a CRX si
CRX is a good choice.
The 1st gen Honda Insight an even better choice, IMO. I own one, but my biggest gripe with it is that it is front-wheel-drive. But unless I look at rare cars from 50+ years ago, I won’t find anything with a comparable CdA value while being similarly low in mass that was ever mass produced and sold in the USA. To find anything comparable to it, I have to look at cars such as the Saab Sonett, Saab 96, Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale, Triumph GT6, and such, all of which are rare and generally even more expensive.
Had I designed the Insight, it would have been roughly 1 foot lower in height, RWD, and available with a non-hybrid trim using the S2000 engine, while retaining the same drag coefficient or less. It would still be a two-seater hatchback coupe and still made to be every bit as affordable as the Insight we got. Except now you’d have potent performance to go with the fuel economy, reliability, and chassis longevity, at a very accessable price that punches at cars 2-3x its cost.
A foot lower in height? So you would limit it’s market appeal to dwarves and yoga enthusiasts?
Good thing you aren’t in charge of product development for products that actually need to sell in quantities of more than one.
My GT6 is about as low as what I describe, and I have a 6′-3″ friend who fits in it just fine.
I fit in my Spitfire just fine – though getting in and out top up is a non-starter at this point. That is slightly easier in a GT6 as you don’t have the top mechanism in the way like I do. But neither me nor you are “normal” car buyers, and there are barely enough of us to keep the Miata viable as a new car. Which with modern safety and convenience requirements, I don’t fit comfortably in at all. And I really, really tried for a couple of years with my ’18 Fiata.
And having spent some time in an Insight, taking a foot off that is going to make it much harder to get in and out of – and the average punter today thinks that a *mid-size sedan* is too low. That would make it nearly half a foot LOWER than a GT-6 – getting down to Lotus Europe territory. 99.9999% of new car buyers will look at that and say “no f’ing way”.
Fiesta ST is a brilliant combination of driving enjoyment and low cost. Not as good an everyday as the Fit, but far more fun