The Ford F-150 Lightning is a curious vehicle. Engineered to basically be an F-150 with an electric motor, it was a good faith effort at shortcutting its way into the electric truck market. It didn’t quite work as planned, and an ill-timed fire at the automaker’s aluminum supplier basically doomed the slow-selling Lightning. Now that Ford isn’t making them, they’re in high demand.
Today is, obviously, the 10th anniversary of the knighting of Rod Stewart, so I might keep The Morning Dump a little briefer than usual.
While used Lightnings are selling well, new BMWs continue to dominate the luxury market in the United States. The UAW ticket led by Shawn Fain absolutely cleaned up in elections, so I should talk about that. And China and the EU have come to a deal on hybrids.
The Best Proof That The EVs Are Just Too Damn Expensive
I don’t think I’ve driven an F-150 Lightning, but I remember David rraving about it when it first appeared on the market. This was a vehicle that made a lot of compromises in order to share parts with the normal F-150, which wasn’t a bad strategy. Given that the F-150 Lightning was initially priced at a level somewhat competitive with gas-powered trucks, it seemed possible that the Lightning could have been a hit.
Relative to other electric trucks, the Lightning did well, it’s just that there wasn’t enough demand for new electric trucks that cost upwards of $60,000. Even when Ford lowered the cost of the Lightning it wasn’t enough to stoke sufficient volume to offset all the money the company was losing building them.
When Ford’s main aluminum supplier caught on fire (twice), the resulting shutdown hit F-150 production hard, and the company prioritized profitable gas pickup trucks over unprofitable EVs, eventually killing the Lightning.
Now that you can no longer buy a new Lightning (unless one is hiding on a lot somewhere), the truck is suddenly extremely popular. As my old buddy Kyle Stock reports, it’s Lightning Time:
The typical Lightning is changing hands in about 20 days in the U.S., versus 44 days for the average used vehicle. The price has steadily risen to $50,000, an increase of 4% since the start of the year, according to Edmunds.com.
And nearly one-third of used Lightnings are being sold by dealerships that peddle other brands. Typically, those stores would flip a used Ford to a Ford dealer, according to Douglas, but many are electing to list the car directly to tap red-hot demand.
Chase Norris, a county planner in Colorado ski country, recently ditched his gas F-150 for a used Lightning. At $40,000, he considered the vehicle both a major upgrade and a bargain.
This is the best evidence yet for there being some demand for electric vehicles once you knock a few percentage points off the cost. The running costs are also probably much lower if you can charge at home and avoid expensive gas.
If this is a good sign for anyone, it’s Ford itself, which is about to reveal the much cheaper Ford Fathom electric pickup truck.
BMW’s Pretty Good Year
BMW is the one German automaker I think is doing it generally right. I know that not everyone is on board with every decision the brand makes. As an E39 owner I have feelings about new BMWs. Those feelings are never sadness or disgust, however. And when I get to drive one I remember how much I still enjoy them.
That’s showing up in sales, with BMW extending its overall lead in the luxury space with more than 100,000 sales in Q3, which is a little more than Lexus (93k), and Mercedes-Benz (76k). Audi sales aren’t out yet, though it’s clear they’ll still be low.
How’s the brand doing it? Here are some details via Automotive News:
“Our dealers and our brand continue to buck the trend of what’s happening in the premium space overall,” Tom Shanley, BMW of North America’s executive vice president of operations, told Automotive News.
U.S. sales of the 3 Series jumped 46 percent to 11,256 in the third quarter.
“That’s one of our most affordable vehicles for an entry point in the premium space,” Shanley said. “That really drove some additional performance.”
The market for luxury crossovers and SUVs continues to be robust, Shanley said, with the BMW X3, X5, X6 and X7 each posting gains in the third quarter. BMW dealers will receive a key product this month with the launch of the redesigned X5 crossover.
Good, reasonably (for what they are) priced cars, across a large range of segments, isn’t a bad way to do it.
Shawn Fain Easily Wins Four More Years As UAW President
United Auto Workers President Shawn Fain’s hard-nosed tactics helped his union win historic contracts with automakers. Those same tactics seem to be a little more problematic within the union, with the court-appointed monitor singling out Fain for retaliating against people who disagreed with him or he didn’t like.
Members of the UAW didn’t seem to be bothered by the alleged transgressions.
The incumbent UAW president claimed victory in a news release late Friday, Oct. 9. Fain was overwhelmingly reelected by UAW members in the union’s leadership elections, securing the post with over 68% of the vote. Rich Boyer, the UAW’s current vice president who has been at odds with Fain for years, came in second place with just over 13% of the vote. In total, nearly 100,000 votes were cast.
It is a striking referendum on the popularity of Fain, who led the union through widely publicized strikes against the Detroit Three automakers in 2023 just months after taking office for the first time. Fain has catapulted into the political circuit, too, becoming a common figure at rallies for pro-labor Democrat politicians and candidates.
Success is alluring.
EU Limits Hybrid Imports
The EU was so laser focused on Chinese EVs it sort of forgot to regulate Chinese hybrids. It sounds like resolution to this issue is coming, with the European Union restricting hybrids to 350,000 imported per year. In theory, this applies to everyone, in practice, this is about Chinese cars.
Still, that’s a lot of cars, and a victory for Chinese automakers. What does the EU get out of it?
In parallel, China will remove tariffs on some auto parts and halve duties for shoes, ice-cream and olive oil, the document says. Those moves, which will also apply temporarily, would cover about €4 billion worth of exports.
The two sides will also discuss ways to ease export controls and licenses, in particular regarding the supply of rare earths and permanent magnets, according to the document. The EU and China also agreed to exchange more information on their respective export restrictions.
Ice cream! Olive Oil!
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
Well, now that I said it, here’s Sir Rod Stewart with “Young Turks.” Young hearts, be free tonight.
The Big Question
What’s the best used EV deal right now?
Top photo: Ford
Regarding the UAW vote: “In total, nearly 100,000 votes were cast.”
That means only about 25% of UAW members bothered to vote.
Man, even worse than general US elections. Those trend between 40 and 60% or so.
There are 7 states that are above 70%. All of them have in common a focus on making voting easy either through 100% mailed ballots or extended in person voting.
Here in Oregon we average about 75%. The voter pamphlet came this weekend and the ballot should arrive this week. I’ll have at least 2 weeks to research and make my selection before returning the ballot before Election Day. WAY better than other states I’ve lived where realistically I had a 2 or 3 hour window to vote after work along with everyone else so it took hours of standing in line – often in the rain or snow.
I get a text when they mail the ballot, when they receive my voted ballot, and when it’s verified and accepted. Oregon voting works pretty well… As long as the federal government doesn’t sabotage it.
I do as well but the notification are an opt in system.
Yes, Oregon’s voting system works well. Too well, which is why it is under attack.
Minnesota has crazy high voter turn out which seem to get them a target on their back.
They do – almost always above 75% in presidential election years. They also have same day registration and offer anyone the option to vote in person or absentee. In person voting starts 18 days before the election.
Make it easy to vote – people vote. It is a simple concept. Other states close the polls at 6 pm.
I have had someone tell me that voting needs to be difficult because it keeps away people who aren’t ‘serious about voting’. You will never guess which way they split in 16.
I’ve heard the same.
I’ve also heard a retiree tell me that having the majority of time that polls are open during normal working hours isn’t a problem. “Just take the day off” said the guy with unlimited time off to the guy with 10 days.
Just terrible turnout 🙁
TBQ Usually a bolt/ volt or jolt (whatever that is.
I freaked Rod out once. Walking him to his limo after the “in the round”.concert and being the licence plate freak that I am I looked at it. The road manager said that my crew and I did such a great job he’s was awarding me a soccer ball with his autograph on it.
Driving home on I45 North around 2 am I spotted a limo in front of me and thought “no way”. Then I remembered the “next gig” sign backstage said “dallas”. I pulled up behind and bingo same plate number.
I pulled alongside and flipped on the dome light. I reached for the ball and tossed it up and down. The limo matched my speed for 30 seconds and then flooded it.
Thanks for the memories Sir Stewart.
Cool story bro.
Sorry rented fingers. The concert was in Houston and the limo floored it!!!
The best used ev deal for low mileage nice place to be might be a vf8 especially if you can find one with the free charging about $15k to $17k. Not too many of the free charging but fair few vf8 out there. Then probably the $8k to $10k model 3s for the low end. Same era niro ev for similar or less money can be decent but they are harder to find. Sometime some newer ones will pop up for around $12k. Or you can get a 140 mile range 1 to 2 year old leaf with less then 15k miles for around $13k. Not great but not terrible.
Everyone loves the ionic 5 it’s probably the best all around value but deals are harder to find. With new ones being $35k with free money its harder to argue for the used ones. Especially once they go over $22k. For around that money you can also get a new bolt. That might be the real move if you don’t need the space.
I’ve seen id4 lease returns come back and sell cheap but I don’t trust them. They are also under what will probably be a battery recall. So maybe could be a good deal buy one for very cheap especially if effected by the bulletin soon to be recall. Could be like the bolts where they go for $5k to $8k. Then you get a brand new battery when they get around to it.
Didn’t some fleet company buy up all the VF8’s and fix their issues? Or am I thinking of a different failed EV?
I think that was Fisker….
Yup, “American Lease & Management LLC” purchased the remaining ~3200 Fisker Oceans.
You’re thinking of Fisker, which are used as NYC taxicabs now
They bought up the remaining Fiskers on sale, but previously existing owners got together and funded much needed software fixes and updates for their own vehicles. The fleet company wouldn’t contribute or cooperate in any way with the consumer group, who knows how they are dealing with the famous bugs? The Verge covered this and interviewed someone doing the same thing for a defunct software home company, Insteon. Let’s hope Google doesn’t likewise get bored of car software: nearly every new car is now dependent on their Android Automotive in-car infortainment system, including companies that hide it like Rivian and their record with smart home products is appallingly feckless.
Vf8 is used by vin group for taxis in Vietnam and now parts Europe . They might be in a few other Asian countries. Maybe your wires got crossed fisker NYC taxi and vf8 Asian and European taxi.
Gas is pushing $7 a gallon where I live. So it doesn’t take a genius to wonder why F-150 lightning sales are up. We are about to turn in our leased Equinox EV and noticed the prices of used EVs are climbing pretty dramatically. In other words- Ford, GM and Chrysler all fucked themselves by having mainly large and not very fuel efficient trucks as their main incomes and now they’re too expensive to fill.
I remember when ford announced they were killing off everything that wasn’t a truck or SUV and thinking that next time they was a recession or oil price shock they were going to regret that decision.
Yes but that was in the future! You’re not considering the shareholder value they created in the short term.
The high gas prices don’t seem to have triggered a mass exodus from guzzlers like it did back in 2008. I remember the used car lots lined with forlorn Tahoe’s hoping someone would adopt them and take them home.
Inflation calculator says $4 in 2008 is $6.22 in 2026. Even the previous high gas price before an election of $3.80 in 2012 is $5.54 today. We have not seen the same behavior because prices are not actually at an inflation adjusted high yet.
That and people are feeling too cash strapped to take on another car loan. Especially the ones who bought at the peak of the post-pandemic car shortage and are still upside down.
This is true. I think that the interest on a car loan has to be less than the fuel savings for it to seem like a good idea. People upside down will have much higher monthly payments than they save in gas if they roll over negative equity.
Well that’s because the war will be over in 2 weeks and lots of oil is flowing and has will be the cheapest it has ever been very soon.
Think about how much full sized trucks cost now. They cost as much as a house in some parts of the country and many people now have 5+ year loans. I don’t think they’ll be turning those trucks in anytime soon even if they eat their life savings in fuel.
The power of the media. It’s all we heard back then was how bad they were. Heck, people were attacking Hummers on the street then.
Maybe they wouldn’t have to worry about Chinese imports if they didn’t gouge their customers and kill off the cheaper cars.
I think that’s true but also they and their dealers burned a lot of bridges. The people who were buying anything but trucks and SUVs from them don’t want to deal with them. Bolt really should be doing a lot better then it is. But also dealers. I’ve seen them as low as $23k people fly to Texas to get them. But some dealers have some listed close to $40k. Most people won’t fly to pickup a car. But more and more people don’t want to leave their house to order a car.
The ability to order a car online is the one advantage that Tesla still has. That and the tyranny of the default, Tesla is the Kleenex and Xerox of EVs: people think they make the only electric cars and have the only charging network.
Rivan, lucid, plus the startups that are online only. The caravana thing I think shows the phenomenon well. People buying used cars online. That seems extra crazy but they just don’t want to deal with stealerships. It’s sort of like Costco / Carmax in the 90s / 00s. Amazon / Carvana / Tesla currently. Adapt or die. Dealers starting doing the “fair price” but don’t do online. Still try to get people in to upsell them.
As another E39 owner: my feelings definitely are of sadness and disgust.
Yeh I think he’s being a tad generous I’ve owned 3 older BMWs and nothing they make now inspires me even a tiny bit to want one.
TBQ – The deals aren’t as good as before the gas price spike, but the Bolt is still a lot of car for the money on the used market. We got our ’22 EUV Launch Edition for $17k in December with about 40,000 miles on it. It had a battery recall replacement at 20,000 miles, so it still had 5 years and 80,000 miles of battery warranty on it and had an original MSRP of $44k. They are going for more like $20k now.
There’s some Polestar bargains out there too. Kia EV6 seems like a good value too, as long as you are OK with a possible ICCU failure, but I think they extended the warranty on that part to 15 years/180,000 miles.
I like the sweet spot of about 3 years old on my used EV’s. You often catch them coming off lease. You don’t really have to worry about deferred maintenance because there isn’t any. Tires can be an issue, but just check them. I bought our previous ’14 Volt at 3 years old and our current 330e at about 2 years old and they were both trouble free cars.
We have a pile of the fleet special Lightnings at work. They’re fantastic work vehicles, and cost waaaayyyy less to run than the F-350s that are supposed to be for heavier duties, but half the time are just run-arounds for parts and people anyways. We’re trying to scoop up some more, but getting harder by the day.
Cutting production was a pretty big foot-shooting moment from Ford IMO.
Fleets make the perfect place for EVs.
They truly are. Just the economics alone- we have like 3x the number of lightnings as 350s, and yet they cost like 1/5th as much to run total. City busses, any sort of municipal service vehicle, you make up the price premium so fast it blows your mind. In a way, private passenger vehicles are like the worst possible case for EV adoption.
This makes so much sense, every time I see a cop car idling on the side of the road I wonder if/when we can get municipal police departments into EVs, if they can figure out range vs recharging it seems to make so much sense on fuel and maintenance costs?
Patrol cars are run something like 20 hours a day, I think? Which leaves no time for recharging. If there was an emergency, half their fleet would be unavailable. They’d have to buy twice the number of vehicles if they were battery powered, and EVs already cost more than gas-powered versions.
Did not realize they ran them 20 hours a day but I suppose it makes sense that they get used across different officer’s shifts.
A lot of that time is spent idling though. There is no reason some of that time couldn’t be spent at an EV charger.
It does depend heavily on the department. Most City forces usually hot seat their vehicles, but then again have a variation in the on-duty numbers depending on the time of day. Meanwhile my local State Patrol uses the 1-officer, 1-car system where they do take home their vehicles for quicker response if there is a need for all hands on deck. Yes they need more vehicles for that but they don’t need to be replaced as frequently and often better taken care of further extending their usable life.
Run yes, but not necessarily driving. It is known that police vehicles rack up ridiculous idle hours, so they are definitely not always in motion.
Google is showing me as little as 20 miles a shift for urban cops, to as much a 300 miles+ for rural highway patrol.
According to Lake Oswego police:
Those milage / numbers are well within what could be achieved today with a 30-min charging stop once per shift. Gotta finish that paperwork somewhere, right?
Idling is really hard on engines, and these vehicles are going for oil changes & service multiple times a month. I suspect many departments are waiting for funding to install chargers, improvements to public infractructure, and the right EV patrol vehicle at the right price.
It’s not if, but when.
Just install Level 2 chargers at the donut shop and they’ll be set.
Exactly!
I mean this is basically my logic for thinking they’re ideally placed to be replaced with EVs. I imagine that time that would normally be idle when on an EV running their computer hardly any charge is being used. Especially with today’s faster charging, or staggering vehicle schedules seems like something that’s achievable if anyone wanted to figure it out.
Yeah. It’s definitely doable. Plus police officers are known for being a somewhat… conservative bunch. They’re probably not going to leap into something like this until the economics are undeniable.
A lot of that time is just idling though, energy use from that is much much lower than driving around
Hybrids would be the idea powertrain for police vehicles since they can mostly idle without running the ICE engine and still have enough range to chase a perp halfway across a state.
Ford did offer a Fusion Hybrid Responder for a couple of years and the Explorer has been available in a hybrid version since 2020 and it is even “pursuit rated”. It does pretty well in the MSP acceleration, top speed and vehicle dynamics tests while of course having much lower fuel use, especially in cars that do a lot of idling.
I believe if Ford had stuck to only selling the Pro they would still be in production. There were only $100K Platinums on lots when they released it.
Also the bait and switch on price didn’t exactly help.
I’ve thought about this too. Sure, the Lightning Pro did eventually make it to market, but the truck was clearly designed around the XLT / Lariat / Platinum trim levels.
There was no way to order a Pro without a crew cab, 5.5ft box, centre console, expensive unique LED lighting or unique body panels. Ford’s choice to even name the truck ‘Lightning’ shows they were focused on the ‘lifestyle’ market.
I wonder how things would have gone if Ford had really phoned it in, and offered the truck as a 1:1 electric chassis swap, the way they did with the E-transit.
Imagine a true electric XL- Extended cab, 6.5″ box, RWD, say only 275hp.
I’ve thought about that a lot and also the maverick should have had an EV option. Sins of hackett and fields I suppose. All this model t moment talk. Stop building the expensive trucks with all the junk almost no one wants. Trying to find an extended cab truck on a lot can be hard I think that’s part of the reason they don’t sell. The dealers will give you a deal or you can pay more to order.
Looks like the Fathom is basically going to be an electric Maverick, so we will see how that goes for them.
We will see what the specs are, if it has low range and power for that low price it won’t sell.
It could be the same issue as the lightning not enough fleet spec trucks. I just get mad at Farley yelling about model t moment all the time. When it looks like slate has built the modern model t. Both Ford and dealers will try to sell bloated versions to make more money. People want a sub $30k truck not a $37k truck with a bunch of things they won’t miss.
Range will be critical, but anything over 200hp (with instant electric torque) is probably A-OK.
Our friend just traded his late model V8 Z71 Silverado for a 190hp Maverick Hybrid, and has no complaints.
Towing will matter too, hopefully the Fathom can match the 4000lb towing capacity of the Maverick. Even 3500 would be okay, it had just better not be limited to 1500…
Yep, it’s an admission of the wrong direction they took. It’s going to do better then the lighting. They just should have done it sooner. But Farley wanted a big splash I guess. It does make sense to have the universal ev platform they really need a cheap little van to sell to fleets.
Plus Ford got greedy when they saw the astonishing number of people in line for the Cybertruck so spent a ton of money emergency ramping up suppliers and factory capacity. They had contracts for just enough and had to rip them up. Then the dealers got greedy and slapped on $10,000 or more of pure grift and price gouging, even selling reserved trucks out from under people. We all learned we couldn’t trust a special order from Ford; I waited until the Mach-E I wanted was actually on the lot and available to purchase. And like you said, Ford promised a miracle truck with great specs at a low price that they couldn’t deliver. Whoops.
Ford got over 200k reservations within a week or so of opening the order books which is why they did the emergency ramp from the 50k per year they had initially forecast.
I found a Citicar CommutaCar on Marketplace for $3,500. It needs batteries, but I think AA’s are pretty cheap right now.
The deals don’t seem to be there yet, but I am holding out for a $40k model X, or a ~$25k MY.
They exist. But older and higher mileage. I bought a 100k mi M3 for $8k. I’ve seen MY with 100k mi for $15k. Can find older MX for under $20k.
My brother is really wishing he bought a Lightning when they were first discontinued.
Best with regard to EV deals is kind of a moving target. Sure you can get very cheap FIAT 500 E’s, but are they the best deal? Like older Leaf’s, they have massive battery degradation issues and they only start at around 100 mile range anyway.
300 mile fleet Lightnings that were selling for a loss at 40K new are likely getting sold off on the fleet lots by now, but maybe they are selling to the market reported on above? just off warranty lightnings might be a deal if they are using standard depreciation and come with that discontinued 300Mile battery. Doubt it though.
Battery degradation is a huge problem when so many of these early electrics came underpowered and with only a hundred miles of range. Clearly companies didn’t actually want to sell them, it’s shocking that the new Fiat 500e is just as bad! Shades of GM offering the EV1 only in certain counties in California and only if you had a qualifying garage and then only as a temporary lease.
I was scoping used Lucids which have to be up there in total depreciation from a dollars perspective, but those are pretty rare. The best deal in used EVs that’s readily available is freshly off-lease 2 years old EV Blazers with 18k miles in the mid-to-high 20s. Lots of EVquinoxes there as well, but the blazer was more expensive out of the gate so that’s basically half price for a barely used car.
The prices on used F150 lightnings certainly reflect that the demand is there for an affordable EV truck. I’ve seen a few more EV Silverados around recently (which probably sold with big incentives) but in my neighborhood there have been a few new F-150 lightnings in the last year or so. The interest is still there and maybe the price is more palatable as everything else has skyrocketed in price.
Also, I seem to remember a lot of shit-talking when Ford raised prices during the pandemic when supply chains and chip prices were fucking everyone over. A lot of “the new Silverado EV is going to crush the Lightning” because of price and range….
We are finishing the lease on our Equinox EV. GOOD car! Sure its not super exciting but its done what we needed to do. We even took it on a few road trips and the number of rapid charge stations means we’re not worried about that as its just pulling over and letting it charge for 15-20 mins while we go pee or eat something. Nothing went wrong. After close to 50,000 miles the range is the same, No loss. And unlike earlier EVs that claimed they would go XXX miles only to do so in the most perfect situations, this one really does go 320 miles on a charge. We just drive it like a “normal” car and call it a day. We are going to buy a used EV of some sort because the experience as well as current gas prices makes it a no-brainer.
Shh, I want those to still be available in a year when I’m looking to replace my Prius. 😛
Prices haven’t quite come back down to pre-Iran levels, but at least the initial 6-8k price bump is gone. I don’t think incentives have come back on the new ones yet either, so unfortunately used is clearly the way to go right now.
Oh shocker. Now that the Lightning is selling at the mythical $40k they teased it would start at they are actually moving. I knew I dude in a Civic that was stoked for a $40k Lightning but obviously that never materialized.
It was me, the dude in a Civic that was super hopeful for a $40k Lightning. Unfortunately the cheapest big battery I could get was $70k, an entire civic worth of upcharge.
The battery might have weighed nearly as much as your car, the Hummer’s certainly does.
I rented a Lightning in TX a month or so ago. It was way more vehicle than I needed, but I didn’t have to wait at the counter for a return to come in. It is unabashedly big and fast/powerful. Charging was the problem – I never got near stranded but quality fast chargers were rare where I was staying and I know I overpaid and had to wait at times. To add insult to injury, my hotel had a half dozen Tesla superchargers that I could not use (don’t expect Avis to throw in the adaptor cable).
It’s criminal rental agencies don’t even throw in a level 1 cable with their EV rentals.
I was sitting for 30 or so minutes a day at the 65kw unit at a Hyundai dealer 3 miles away.
Charging cost me over an hour on my drive to IAH rental return.
Cost effective.
You know how many renters would steal that thing?
I spent probably half of what I would have in gas, for 2+ hours of time. That said, I would have been perfectly happy with a Corrolla/Sentra/Elantra.
Or just leave it attached to the charger as they drive off.
If only they had a credit card number for the renter that they could charge extortionate amounts to if the cord disappears, much like hotels do with towels… 😉
You have to prove that they stole it and not some random.
Also they’d argue heavily if they got the insurance.
Sounds like a revenue stream to charge them when it’s not returned!
See my reply to Ben.
Its because they would get stolen.
Most EVs can use Tesla superchargers. It helps if they have a NACS port, but otherwise work via an adapter — which I suspect the rental company didn’t provide!
BINGO! That was my dilemma – low cost juice in the parking lot with no way to access it. SAE/ASE/ASTM/ ASME/ISO really dropped the ball.
As an engineer who does quite a bit of testing, ASTM drops the ball
A LOT
As a fellow engineer no argue. This should have been set – not a battle of the fittest.
The eternally relevant XKCD strikes again
https://xkcd.com/927/
Now the US does actually have ONE charging standard thank god. We don’t have a dozen different competing “standards” but we do live in dongle hell, everyone needs two different expensive adaptors to access any available charger as the changeover happens in the next decade or two. Some new vehicles like the new Leaf have the new NACS port for DC fast charging AND the old CCS for AC overnight charging, ugh, you still need two adaptors!
Agreed. The only reason NACS even has an SAE standard number now is because all of the domestic OEMs just decided they wanted to use NACS. And the reasoning was mostly packaging/styling as Tesla had found a way to DC charge without a huge or completely separate inlet shape. Everyone was jealous and angry they had to have giant chargeport doors on all their EV’s to accommodate CCS1. They also recognized the infrastructure Tesla had built and wanted to mooch off of that.
The scary thing was that all the OEMs kinda just decided to make the switch on their own, to a competitor’s proprietary, unstandardized (at the time) hardware. Bold move, especially considering the guy at the helm of that competitor. Seems to be working out…..so far.
Not really, Tesla finally worked with the SAE to make a standard available and allowed other car makers to use it free of charge (as NACS is now a real standard, not an expensive proprietary locked down thing.) It’s like usb C ports and cables, it looks the same but the software is the old CCS handshake.
It’s true that Tesla allowed the others to use the NACS, but from my experiences, some OEMs had already decided and began incorporating NACS in vehicle development as early as mid/late 2022. SAE didn’t even release their Technical Information report (the precursor to a standard) on J3400/NACS until late 2023, and the actual standard wasn’t published until mid 2025.
I guess my point being that the OEMs were moving forward well before it was a standard, which seemed a bit risky at the time as it was still technically just Tesla’s hardware at that stage.
I got the feeling SAE would have just let it ride a while longer without a standard if the other OEMs didn’t force their hand by deciding to adopt and move forward with it. That standard should have already been developed considering how long and prolifically Tesla had been using it.
Key dates for the switch to NACS in the USA:
Conclusion. It was the federal government cutting off money to Tesla and pushed them to open their network and hand over NACS to SAE.
Charging in the USA is a failure of regulators not standards organizations. We never want to regulate up front so we always spend way too much to build out redundant and non-compatible systems and let the market fight until one wins. That leads to extra cost upfront and an inferior network.
Charging is basically a repeat of cell phones. The EU set a standard and made everyone use it. The US let the market decides. Consumers lost and network rollout in our “free market” trailed badly.
Also know ASTM hardness testing BTW.
I think you need two adaptors, one for DC and one for AC. That’s what I have for the Ford Mach-E. Being able to charge overnight at my lodging was a fantastic perk of having a EV, shocking they didn’t have one to hand to you. I’ve heard they don’t even charge them up. EV rentals should waive the requirement to fill up before return, they have the infrastructure to take care of that but the customer will be extremely inconvenienced.
They wanted 70% charge on return which cost me 30 or so minutes 5 miles from the terminal. PITA.
Is the QOD cash or finance or lease? How Used?
If I could get a $20-25K new EV I would this week. $35-40K is just too much for a in town run about.
There’s not even many new ICE choices in the $20-25k range anymore. That’s a woefully low price for any new car regardless of power source.
That being said, there’s loads of Bolts on Cars.com in that price range (though most are in the high $20k’s). No idea how realistic the listing prices are, or if it’s because of a bunch of “incentives” that no realistic person actually qualifies for.
Using Edmunds search, decent used Bolts can be had for nicely under $20k. The oldest Bolts are actually not bad deals (can sometimes be found for under $14k), since they all have newish batteries that are higher capacity than they originally came with due to that big recall a couple years ago.
Not only newish batteries but newish batteries with a warranty.
The battery in my Bolt is warrantied until Feb 2032 or another 50K miles
Looks like the UAW would fain vote for Fain.
TBQ: I think this question might actually be unanswerable.
Given how much EVs vary in function (i.e. range and availability/convenience of fast charging), the best deal is highly dependent on how you intend to use it. Drive locally only short distances? 1G Leaf with 9 or more bars. Drive locally slightly longer distances? Any mid-range, forgettable, non-Tesla EV (2G Leaf, Bolt, Kona, etc.). Road trips? Model 3/Y long range. Something to haul stuff? F150 Lightning. Something luxurious? Model S.
I no longer own an EV, mostly because I don’t find currently available affordable-ish EVs interesting. I am also more interested in an EREV because I do a lot of very long road trips. As of now, I anticipate trading in my F250 on an EREV pickup when one becomes available. The upcoming EREV Lightning sounds very interesting, but I would also consider a Ram 1500 EREV (though the craptacular reliability of 4xe models makes me nervous; hopefully Stellantis can do better with their second effort) or the Scout Terra or Traveler (assuming these happen at all).
Anecdotal, but I follow some F150 Lightning groups, and many owners are moving from F-250s and other HD pickup trucks.
They report that (range not withstanding) the Lightning out-performs their gas/diesel 3/4 ton pickup trucks for the realistic sub-10,000lb loads those trucks can comfortably handle on a daily basis.
This confirms my feeling that the electric F150 and GM trucks are really “heavy halfs”, and don’t truly compete with their ICE 1/2 ton twins. Which in retrospect should be fairly obvious when you compare GVWR, power, and price.
It’s going to be the same for the upcoming F150 and Ram EREVs… Those trucks will be heavy, powerful and expensive as fuck. I predict they will only capture a very small niche of 1/2 ton buyers, actually competing in the traditional 2500 market.
I actually do think the Ford & Ram EREVs will be moderately successful, but the technology is overkill unless you tow heavy on a regular basis. This is a big reason why I think the Scout EREV is going to fail- It will be too expensive for lifestyle users, but with only 5000lb towing capacity, it won’t hang with the HD or even 1/2 ton trucks it will be priced against.
Yeah, I agree these could be popular replacements for 3/4 ton trucks, especially if diesel stays so expensive. At $4/gallon diesel isn’t too bad. Over $6, it would be rational to purchase one of these instead (especially considering the diesel option usually comes with a $10,000 up charge). I’m sure a lot of people will be reluctant to transition from a proven technology to an EREV, but paying $200 to fill up your truck is a kick in the teeth. I don’t expect fuel prices to come down soon, if ever, so that is good for these trucks.
This makes me wonder why they appear to be targeting the 1/2 ton non-work market exclusively. Both the Ram and the Lightning look like they will only be released as higher-spec crew cab/short bed trucks. There is a reason work-oriented trucks generally have a 6.5 or longer bed.
I actually think both the Ram and Lightning could be popular with the half ton market if gas stays expensive. EV pickups are exorbitantly expensive, but a lot of that is the massive batteries and the fact they are primarily sold only in higher trim levels. The smaller battery should more than offset the cost of having an ICE engine. If nothing else, the difference between an ICE equivalent and a EREV should be ~$10k to $15k, which isn’t massive considering how expensive pickup trucks are at baseline.
I disagree about the Scout. Plenty of people were willing to pay for Rivians and Cybertrucks. This vehicle should be cheaper than both. Plus, there is a non-trivial subset of buyers like myself that are interested in EVs but find range/charging to be a barrier. Of course, this is all contingent on Scout actually coming to fruition. It also has to not suck, which is no guarantee.
I suspect the focus on high-level spec for electric trucks (and the upcoming EREVs) is no different from most early EVs in general- The drivetrain is expensive, so the only way to make a margin is to raise the price, and include enough luxury features to justify.
The other approach would be go all in on fleet sales, and hope commercial buyers see the benefits over long term TCO.
Unfortunately I don’t believe the average consumer (aka people who buy 1/2ton trucks) can swallow a 10-15k uncharge for an equivalent vehicle. Non-professional people are incredibly sensitive to initial purchase price fluctuations… Most truck buyers can barely afford their $45k F150 XLT as it is- That $10k price delta is the reason an XLT Lightning remained a niche product at best. Realistically, this applies to the entire EV (and hybrid) market in general.
It is only recently that conventional hybrids began to pencil out economically. It still takes like 8 years to make back the ~$4k price delta for a hybrid CRV in fuel savings. PHEVs and EREVs kick this can even further down the road with their significantly larger and more expensive batteries, and still need all the same maintenance as a gas vehicle. Most of the altruistic virtue signalling of purchasing a hybrid has faded, so it really does come down to economics.
I really don’t think it can be overstated how much price matters.
F-150 Lightning buyers in the same demographic as F-250 buyers ultimately makes sense because that group is proven to afford a $55k+ truck. The same is true for a A BMW 3 series and Tesla Model 3 premium- Very different cars, but they both start at like $45k, and buyers are in the position to cross shop them.
Personally, I’m not convinced an EREV is going to save much money over a standard range EV truck like the discontinued Lightning. At least not when they’re installing full size truck engines AND 90kWh+ batteries. I think the Stellantis CEO said it best…
I wish Scout the best, but VW is going to bungle it. They will be selling an expensive lifestyle truck into a challenging economy. Both the Cybertruck and Rivian R1 are the definition of niche vehicles- it is only with the R2 that Rivian has a hope of long term mainstream success.
I get what you are saying about price. I agree there are a lot of customers buying lower-spec trucks for whom $10k would be a barrier. At least where I live, though, I don’t see a lot of non-fleet customers buying XL/XLTs. I mostly see Lariat and above (and whatever the equivalent is for Chevrolet/GMC trucks; I don’t see many high-spec Rams or Tundras for some reason). Frankly, I’m shocked at how many people in my area drive $70k trucks and SUVs. It is a nice area, but not necessarily a rich area.
I think EREV pickup trucks will be successful because they appeal to multiple kinds of customers (buyers who want an EV, buyers who want a high performance truck, buyers who want a comfortable/quiet truck, people who want to save gas, fleets, etc.). They are niche vehicles, but they appeal to multiple niches. Plus, pickups are incredibly popular – if EREVs even capture 5% of that market, that is a success.
I also think that, in terms of fuel prices, the world has fundamentally changed since last year. I think $4.50+ per gallon is going to be normal going forward. Whether or not the overall numbers make sense, buyers are going to see $100+ fuel bills and take a closer look at EREVs (which, unlike EVs, have no functional limitations compared to ICE vehicles). People see the bottom line price once and the payment once per month for a few years, but they see gas bills every week. The constant reminder of gas prices could push people to buy something like this over an ICE vehicle, even if the math doesn’t make sense.
I wish Scout the best, but VW is going to bungle it.
As for Scout, I think they will be successful. But I also have added statements like “it also has to not suck” and questioned whether it will happen at all. So… I do agree there are substantial questions about whether VW can pull this off. I could see this end up being another promising but poorly executed vehicle like the ID.Buzz.
The GM trucks are “3/4 ton” trucks if you use the old count the lug nuts test as they take the same wheels and I think brake parts as their 3/4 ton ICE trucks. Of course the available massive battery is a factor in that.
As far as actual capacity the Lightning is in the middle of the ICE powered F-150’s available payload range.
Chase Norris drives an electric F150, always in the shadow of Chuck, driving that badass Walker Texas Ranger Ram
Did Ford ever breakout the sales number of the F150 Lightning?
When it was released they seemed very popular. Even now, I easily see more than twice the number of F150 Lightning EVs on the road in my area than Cybertrucks, Rivians, Ev Silverado/Sierras combined.
We even have quite a few vendors of ours that use them as light industrial delivery vehicles. It was kind of nice that they look like normal trucks, too (and weren’t oddly proportioned like the GM ones).
They seemed very successful here, and it makes me wonder if there’s another reason why Ford killed it off
Yes Ford did break out Lightning sales separately. In total they have sold 105,369 and there may be a few more still on the lots.
Other brands best available numbers
Tesla 58,569
Rivian 38,783
Chevy 24,491
GMC 14,489
Total 136,332
So not quite half of the market but pretty close, even more impressive when you consider production was stopped in Dec 2025 while all those others are still in production.
So my perception wasn’t too far off.
Sold better than anything else, yet still killed. Odd world we live in.
Well depending on your area there certainly may be more Lightnings than all of the others combined. It could also be that some of those, like the Rivian and Tesla may be more of a Toy and less daily driver or maybe they have a high percentage of WFH buyers.
Meanwhile Lightnings did do pretty well with gov’t and commercial users and those certainly aren’t sitting at home waiting for the weekend’s adventure.
I see quite a few as contractor trucks here in Metrowest Boston. Just anecdotal, but I really didn’t think I’d see so many
Cox Automotive reports EV sales by brand and model every quarter. This is the latest:
Q2-2026-EV-Sales.KBB-Counts.pdf
Hearing that song today makes me feel so old…
I bought a new ’24 Mustang Mach E in December 2024. I primarily use it to commute about 70 miles each day. I REALLY wanted an F-150 Lightning, but just could not justify spending the extra $20k on it vs what I paid for my MME.
The F-150 would have been great. I wanted (but absolutely do not need 99% of the time) a truck. I wanted something that was economical for my long commute, also. So, had to go with the MME which I still enjoy and am glad I got since gas is higher that Snoop.
I hope my next vehicle can be an electric truck.
There was a period where you could lease a Lightning for like $300/mo, I should have bit.
Dang, that’s pretty solid. I have never been one to lease, but that is not bad!
Since gas prices went up and new cars are way more expensive, used EVs are getting more expensive. I was able to get almost 18K for my 23 Bolt EUV that I paid around 22K after tax credit and other GM discounts.
My recommendation is a Polestar 2 since its a dead brand soon in the US but with the support from Volvo, their value tanked.
“Today is, obviously, the 10th anniversary of the knighting of Rod Stewart, so I might keep The Morning Dump a little briefer than usual.”
Heavy drinking while watching the Matchbox cars movie is unrelated, right?
I still think the Audi E-tron GT’s are the best used EV deals