The Toyota RAV4 Hybrid is a car that makes a lot of sense. An ever-popular compact crossover with excellent efficiency and strong resale value, this is generally the sort of car you’d expect to pay full-pop for and keep for a decade or so, enjoying reasonably frugal running costs along the way. The thing is, in this age of elevated gas prices, everyone knows it. As such, pricing of gently used examples has reportedly skyrocketed like these popular family crossovers are limited-edition sports cars.
How high are we talking here? As Bloomberg reports, some one-to-two-year-old examples are now being listed for thousands of dollars more than their original sticker prices. Actually, some are even being listed for thousands of dollars more than an equivalent brand new RAV4.
Indeed, CarMax recently advertised a 2024 RAV4 Hybrid XSE with 29,000 miles for $46,998, which is higher than that trim’s original $38,735 sticker price.
Carvana listed a 2025 RAV4 Hybrid Limited with 5,606 miles for $48,590. That’s a cool $6,040 above the manufacturer’s suggested retail price when it was new. It’s also more than the $43,300 sticker price of a 2026 Limited model.
Um, wow. Those are substantial premiums, and the interesting part is that there’s more where those came from. Take this 2025 RAV4 Limited, for example. Specced with all-wheel-drive, this trim carried a freight-inclusive price tag of $42,550 when it was new, before any options. However, this particular example has covered 6,625 miles and is now being listed for sale at a Toyota franchise dealership for $48,645. Yes, $48,645. Oh, and there’s only one low-resolution photo of it on the listing right now.
Here’s another 2025 RAV4 Hybrid Limited with all-wheel-drive. This ruby red example has 10,669 miles on the clock, the cold weather package, and a roof rack. The asking price second-hand at a BMW dealership in Oregon? A stiff $47,933. Again, this isn’t a plug-in hybrid, this is a standard RAV4 Hybrid listing for not just well above its original sticker price, but $3,038 more than a brand new hybrid all-wheel-drive RAV4 Limited.
These prices are difficult to stomach, especially given how common wisdom would suggest that the new RAV4 being all-hybrid would alleviate this. It may eventually, but the trouble is, every new car is subject to production ramp. It can take months for an assembly line to reach its intended capacity, which means we’re also looking at a supply shortage on the new vehicle side. As Bloomberg reports, Toyota currently has five days of new RAV4 inventory. Meanwhile, Automotive News reported 62 days of supply for the whole industry in April. Quite the gap there, yeah?
While Toyota has always been quick to turn inventory, five days’ supply is taking things to a whole other level. Combine that with the automaker’s reputation for quality historically buoying resale values, and it’s no wonder that people just can’t get enough of the RAV4 Hybrid.
If you’re just looking for a sensible hybrid crossover, more options exist than a gently-used RAV4. You can get into a brand new Honda CR-V Hybrid with all-wheel-drive from $38,580 including freight. If you don’t need all-wheel-drive, Hyundai just announced front-wheel-drive trims of the Tucson Hybrid from $32,550. The Mazda CX-50 Hybrid uses Toyota’s engine and hybrid system, is built in a joint-Toyota and Mazda assembly plant, and starts at $36,245 for a brand new example. Compared to a used car, all of these new choices come with a full warranty period and subvented interest rates courtesy of their marques’ captive finance programs.
However, if you have your mind absolutely set on a Toyota RAV4 Hybrid, it’s best just to wait if you can. Production of the new model is expected to ramp up as the year goes on, which should reduce pricing pressure on gently used examples. If volumes open up enough, you could even score a brand new hybrid RAV4 for what secondhand models are trading for right now. Patience really is a virtue, yeah?
Top graphic image: Thomas Hundal
I have nothing much to add, other than to say that I rode home in a brand spakin’ new Rav4 last year (just before the refresh/new body) with my neighbor, and it was pretty nice inside. I know most new cars will give that impression on day one, but still, it was pretty nice and it does seem to sip gas.
Not saying I want one (let alone that I’d pay over MSRP for a used one) but it’s a very competent appliance and there’s no shame in that at all IMO.
When we were shopping for our ’24 Rav4 Plug-in hybrid, to get the trim and options we wanted, we were told we would have to wait. Another customer we were told had already be waiting for over a year for their vehicle. What we got was exactly what they wanted, but it wasn’t white, and we weren’t as picky, so we magaged to get ours after only waiting a few weeks. One doesn’t order a Rav4, one takes what is available.
Homda go brr engine company build good engine with wheelz
The colossal stupidity of people paying that kind of money for a used Toyota hybrid… Like they can’t do the math. It’s pretty easy to figure out how much a hybrid is going to save you in fuel costs over the exact same version of the car in gas-only version. There’s no way you’re saving $10-15k over a reasonable amount of time driving one of these shitboxes just because it’s a hybrid.
Lease an EV and you’ll save about 80% in fuel costs versus a gas vehicle. Or get a used car. I just bought a $100k Porsche Cayenne for $20k due to depreciation. I could buy two of them just for shits and giggles and still have money leftover for repairs versus a 2-year old Rav4.
There are advantages for some hybrids over the pure ICE versions besides MPG.
an E-CVT is dirt simple, and has very few ways it can fail, unlike really any other traditional transmission.
+ longer powertrain warranty and better for the planet.
I would posit that the best thing for the planet is to buy a used car due to the embodied energy it takes for manufacturing anything. That being said, it requires a certain type of mindset to understand and something not many regular Joes really think about daily.
Aside from the points made by others, the continued high resale value is also valuable. Somewhat irrational, but still real.
I guess Toyota was doing me a favor when they made all of their interiors too small for me?
So fun. Currently on the hunt for one of these as my girlfriend and her kids have outgrown the prius. Part of the issue is that she has a hard line on wanting at least a donut spare, which the CRV doesnt offer or have space for, other than roof mounting or eating the cargo area. Unfortunately that’s the case with all the hybrids other than the Santa FE, which is an add on it but a bit bigger or CX-50 which is a bit tighter inside.
The no-spare thing is really annoying and Honda should be called out more on this, particularly since they sell the CR-V in that stupid TrailSport trim. The old RAV4 had a spare tire well, why wasn’t this newer Honda platform designed for one?
Because most spare tires dry rot into oblivion before they are ever used and thus are a complete and utter waste of money and space in the car? I don’t want to think about how many miles I have driven in the past 37 years, but the last time I needed a spare tire was in *1989*.
Have you ever even checked the tire pressure in your spare?
Dude EVERY single car in our household has gotten a flat in the past 5 years at some point, due to potholes or nails. I don’t know where you live or what you drive that you never got a flat or only ever got a type of flat that could be fixed with a tire repair kit on the side of the road. Spares also simply don’t take up much room. Most sedans & SUVs have space under their cargo floors for random stuff even without a spare. A space saver takes a few inches off the height of the cargo area and that’s it.
Maine and Florida, with annual trips in-between and literally all over the country for work. If you live in some weird area where they are evidently sprinkling nails around every night, you do you. Or are you destroying rubberband tires on potholes? None of my friends or family have had to mount a spare in decades either, to my knowledge (and I would have heard).
Not to say I haven’t gotten a nail in a tire on occasion – to be specific – I said I haven’t had to use a *spare*. I have used the electric compressor in the trunk of my car and just driven home (in the case of the tire that went flat over a week at the airport) or to the shop and gotten the thing fixed.
There is no room for a spare in the back of either of BMWs. The spares in my other cars are so old I wouldn’t trust them at this point. If I worried about it I would use runflat tires – but I don’t, so I don’t. If I ever have a catastrophic tire failure on the road, that is why I have AAA to haul the car to a shop. I have no interest in roadside changing a tire in these days of distracted morons behind the wheel anyway. Plus I might break a nail.
Well, aren’t you special…
I am. Very.
But I guess if you are used to driving rusty junk, you need to be ready for disasters. Like I suggested, might want to just tow an entire spare car around with you at all times. You never know what might fail and leave you stranded…
Uhh…because that would be fucking stupid. It’s a spare tire or donut and a jack/lug wrench. That’s not the same as a whole car. Aren’t you special?
“Ya big dummy!” -Fred Sanford
Kevin, it seems we’ve always have each others back in our posts. One of these days we need to meet.
LOL! I’d love to!
I had no idea there were spare tire fetishists. Learn something new every day. I would love to hear these dude’s opinions on BMW doing away with both oil dipsticks and coolant temp gauges as well as spare tires. Both very justifiable once you take the time to understand the technology involved.
“I had no idea there were spare tire fetishists”
Not even close. The friction you’re receiving is 5% about the spare tire and 95% about the attitude.
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and the other guy’s always stinks. You are certainly entitled to yours. You aren’t going to change mine, and I don’t care if I change yours either ultimately.
You’re still talking about the 5% and not the 95%.
Another matter of opinion. <shrug>
You obviously don’t like that I think I am right and you aren’t. If that’s “attitude”, I’ll own it. I was not put on this planet to win popularity contests, because ultimately, I don’t care if random Internet dude likes me or not.
I don’t like your astounding arrogance and its appearance over and over again on this forum on a range of topics.
That’s a different matter than your opinion on a particular automotive issue.
As I said “your opinion”. If you don’t like my opinions, or how I express them, feel free to ignore my posts. <shrug>
Farts in a room with others. They scowl. Tells them it’s a matter of opinion and to feel free to ignore it.
You know what the difference is between arrogance and confidence? Performance. I have confidence because I have performed very well in my life. If you want to call that arrogance, again, you do you.
Have a nice life.
“I don’t care if random Internet dude likes me or not”
and yet you feel insecure enough that you must inform random internet dude that you’re a big success and not just an asshole…48 hours into a dead comment thread.
Good. Lord.
Random Internet dude is very much keeping the thread alive. So triggered he must be.
Like I said, have a nice life, this IS my last reply.
Then I’m special too. I had an OEM crap tire patched at low mileage that then ran out the rest of its life, as posted above, 12 years and 100k miles and driven to 41 states.
Yeah, I guess so!
Yup, it’s better to have it than need it and not have it. Absolute no brainer. I refuse to own any car that doesn’t have a spare- that’s almost a #1 requirement. Any company that doesn’t sell a car w/ a spare is automatically disqualified/boycotted. Don’t even get me started on the stupid fucking “air pump, slime, etc kit” that they try to pass off that doesn’t do shit at all especially if your sidewall is fucked!
In that case why not take it to the extreme and tow another car behind yours, “just in case”?
Uhh…because that would be fucking stupid. It’s a spare tire or donut and a jack/lug wrench. That’s not the same as a whole car. Aren’t you special?
“Ya big dummy!” -Fred Sanford
I mean, if you are so worried about not being prepared for anything, why not prepare for anything?
That doesn’t even make any sense…there’s no justifying not having a spare. Period.
Did you eat a lot of Tide Pods?
There is no reason to have a spare if the chances are excellent you will never need or use it. Or even be able to get the wheel off yourself roadside.
But ultimately, you do you. I am not lobbying to pass a law banning you from having one.
Would you like a cookie to make you feel better?
There’s always a reason to have it. I’m not wasting my breath since you’re a lost cause and completely delusional. Would you like another Tide Pod?
You really need a cookie. What part of “I have not needed one of the damned things in 37 years across a gazillion miles of driving in 49 of the 50 states” is so hard to understand? Sure, I could shred a tire on my way to Publix later today – but chances are *excellent* that I won’t, and even if I did, I am just going to have the car towed to a shop to get fixed and take an Uber home.
At this point I literally don’t know anyone who has had to change a wheel on the side of the road in decades, so I completely understand why auto manufacturers don’t bother any more. If you feel you need one, then just buy one and toss it in the back of your car “just in case”. Or just buy one of the ever declining number of cars that still come with one. Note that I keep saying “cars” – trucks and SUVs that do actual off-road work are a different story. My Land Rover rightfully has a spare, and it gets replaced when the other four do. As well as being included in tire rotations. But again, not a car.
You really need a Tide Pod. Well, aren’t you special? That you haven’t needed a spare for that long. Good for you! It’s not hard to understand what you’re blabbing about but that doesn’t make it not stupid. Maybe get a life?
I think you might need a tetanus shot, you seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Ha ha! That’s sooo original…I’ve never heard that one. Time for your meds, grandpa…did you get a flat yet?!
I didn’t have a flat for the better part of a decade and then had three of them in a month, on two different cars. Had to change two tires on the spot, for the third my wife limped to a tire place.
In NYC, the roads are thick with nails and other sharp objects, especially after rains.
Last time I used a spare, I was 17 and driving way too fast, understeering into a curb head on, blowing out the whole wheel, but the old Subarus didn’t waste interior space on a spare, they kept it over the transmission (and it was full sized). In the intervening 1M miles or so, I find the interior tire space far more useful for storing things I actually use. I’ve used dozens of Fix a Flat cans and they work great whether it’s a nail, screw, house key(!), chainlink fence wire tie, or several different things in one tire. Even when I had the spare, I didn’t use it. A couple minutes of maintaining situational awareness and ability to quick transition to emergency leave vs a spare wasting valuable space and being in a much more vulnerable position for a lot longer and having to swap the tire back? The can of spooge is the no-brainer and I just leave it in until I replace the tire for wear. At this point, a spare tire is like carrying a spare battery . . . now that I think of it, a spare battery would have come in handy a few times, certainly more than the tire, though the tire will stand the storage a lot better.
“Have you ever even checked the tire pressure in your spare?”
Yes, last week before a road trip. Thanks for checking in on me.
I’m glad you haven’t needed a spare tire for nearly 40 years but I certainly have and I promise you I’m not alone. And if a company is going to put AWD and ground clearance and all-terrain tires on their crossover and market them as off-road capable and encourage them to take them on unpaved surfaces that greatly increase the risk of a flat, then equipping them with a spare is probably a good idea. But hey, people are buying these in droves despite this, so what do I know.
The elimination of a spare is done for similar penny-pinching reasons as removing transmission dipsticks because “lifetime fluid”. Because most people will let their transmissions eat themselves outside warranty just like they will let their spare tires dry rot. Doesn’t make it a good idea.
Literally none of my circle have ever needed their spare tires either. There is a reason beyond penny-pinching they are going the way of the dodo bird.
If you feel you need one, you do you.
Not having a dipstick has nothing to do with not changing a fluid. In properly engineered cars the computer is watching the oil levels anyway, far more faithfully than you or I ever would, and the average punter today has no idea what a dipstick even is. The thought of my mother checking a fluid level is laughable, and there are a heck of a lot more of her than of you or me. Even more laughable is the thought of her changing a tire on the side of the road. I’d pay big money to see her try, it would be *hilarious*.
Cool. Glad nobody you know has ever needed one. I have, because on the road to a hiking trail, a piece of shale sliced my sidewall open.
It also gives you flexibility. I would rather be able to change into a donut to limp somewhere rather than be stuck on the side of a highway for an hour waiting on AAA to come in the middle of nowhere, driving up and down the West Coast.
It’s just another piece of insurance.
Cool! Then buy one and throw it in the back if you feel you need it. I don’t want it and have no interest in paying for it in money or used cargo space.
The chances of my ripping a tire open on a hunk of shale while on my way to a hiking trail are slightly lower than my being hit in the head with a flaming toilet seat from outer space.
Different horses for different courses.
K
If the car is packaged properly, it can accommodate the spare without taking up cargo space. Other manufacturers know how to do this even if BMW and Honda don’t.
The last thing I want if I’m loading up my SUV with camping or road trip gear is to sacrifice a big chunk of the cargo hold for the spare tire that should be underfloor.
It’s one choice among the many compromises that make up a car. <shrug>
I could not care less, evidently you do. Different strokes and all that. Don’t buy a BMW or a Honda.
And in addition, a real SUV with actual off-road capabilities is an entirely different thing from a car (a CRV is not an SUV), assuming you are actually going to use it as intended. My Land Rover Disco properly has a spare. Mounted on the rear door where it is readily accessible and not taking up any space inside.
Once again, Kevin Rhodes knows all and can’t see beyond his own nose. <shrug>. If it ain’t his idea of a proper SUV, then it obviously shouldn’t leave pavement at all and therefore does not need a spare (also, none of his circle have needed to change a spare since 1989 and plus elderly women can’t change tires on the side of the road so obviously no one can). <shrug>.
Also, you’re an idiot for taking a crossover with usable clearance down dirt tracks which it can indeed handle and of which there are hundreds of miles of west of the hundredth meridian. Never mind that this crossover is probably your daily and you may not want to deal with the compromises a proper 4×4 imposes. You should obviously have an old Land Rover for that, because no one in his circle has had a British car break down since, lemme see here, 1989. Big ‘ol <shrug> on that one.
Jesus, dude. In one comment you simultaneously claim “different strokes” but make it abundantly clear you think everyone is is a damned idiot.
Quick, someone mention that the cost of living is difficult to manage right now so we can get another classic rendition of his “that’s a you problem pull up the bootstraps” dismissal of anyone not living in his shoes.
Yup!
I’m a big believer in using the right tool for the job. <shrug>
My Rover is a ’95. Reasonably modern. Has never broken down in the decade or so I have owned it. Never needed the spare either despite a decent amount of use in the Maine woods getting “up to camp” as we say in Maine.
As I said in another post – I am not lobbying to ban spare tires – if you want one, buy one. Again, you do you. But I 1000% understand why automakers largely no longer bother with them.
It’s so much fun to trigger you people. One of my favorite hobbies.
No flats and the mid-90s Rover has never broken down. Aren’t you some kind of god damn automotive unicorn?
The normal experience of everyone I know in terms of spare tire use. <shrug>
Properly maintained vehicles will generally make it home, even if something breaks along the way. In 30 years, the only time my Spitfire failed to do so was when the crankshaft broke due to the dumbass PO using the wrong bolts on the flywheel when he upgraded to an overdrive transmission. Not Triumph’s fault. And it probably could have, but the concerning noise (from the nose of the crank being broken off behind the pulley and slipping) made me decide discretion was the better part of valor so I called a tow truck.
I have had as many nearly new rental cars towed than my own cars in the past 40 years. And I have owned a LOT of cars. 50+, nearly all cars that the Internet peanut gallery would decry as “unreliable”. Cars are only as unreliable as you allow them to be, as a general rule.
I loved my Peugeot 505; you just dropped the spare down from the bottom at the rear. No need to unload the trunk, no risk of getting the car interior dirty.
But having owned 505s – much risk of the mechanism being rusted solid and not working. Under the car is not a very nice place in the northern half of the US.
Colorado was decent for that. It was almost rust free when electric gremlins (and some sort of clutch hydraulics issues) made it impossible to keep alive any longer.
Maine, not-so-much. Good luck to anyone with a pickup or SUV with an undermount spare after about four years of salty slushy Maine winter.
I think if your driving life is lived on pavement as mine is (with occasional gravel misadventure) one really doesn’t need it. I haven’t (fingers crossed). Off road I certainly see the need. Plan accordingly.
Agreed – and if I was venturing far from civilization I would want more than one. And a bunch of tools, and a bunch of common failure items for the vehicle too.
But that isn’t reality for more than the tiniest fraction of even the vehicles that are suitable for that use.
I catch nails all the time in my delivery cars. Most of the time I can get home or refill at the Sheetz to buy some time. But sometimes I can’t. I brought one tire to get fixed last year and it had 5 nails in it.
Remind me to avoid wherever it is you live! 😉
We’re not all frail old women or overweight men who physically struggle to change a simple flat, Kevin. I don’t know why you think your personal experience is the one and only justifiable and defensible one on planet earth.
Yeah, he thinks he special…plus is always arrogant…and there’s absolutely no justifying not having a spare
Sure there is – not needing one is perfectly fine justification.
Ha ha, no it’s not at all. There is no justification. It would be so hilarious if you got a flat today, ha ha!
Sorry, no flat again yesterday. 37yrs, ~160 days with no flat yet again.
<shrug>
This aging fat guy does 95% of the work on his own cars, has restored a couple of cars, and is doing a significant amount of work in the build of his own new house (and in younger years helped build a cabin from scratch). But doesn’t find having a spare tire of much use in all but very limited use cases today. <shrug>
I CAN change a tire on the side of the road – I just have no interest in doing so. And zero need for nearly 4 decades.
<shrug>
WoW
We have two trucks, flats on both this year. Repairable. Last year destroyed tire on Ford truck due to metal debris in road. Our Civic had flat last month. Repairable. It’s a hybrid and I was able to use spare only due to fact that I purchased a spare tire kit for a Si Civic and it fits in the trunk in the sedan. I purposely did not buy the hatchback because the floor pan of the hatch will not fit a spare.
Spare is mandatory. I made an exception for our Miata PRHT only because it is limited use sports car for us. We know it’s getting towed if flat tire is not fixable with inflate kit.
I don’t know where you live, in the industrial areas of midwest and areas where there is home construction flats are the norm.
Maine and Florida, been driving all over the country for work for several decades. TONS of home construction here. Flats such that a spare tire needs to be employed are very much the exception. Put some air in the thing, drive to the shop, get it fixed. <shrug>
Maybe you should pay more attention to what you are driving over? The one time I needed to put on the spare was because my dumb ass drove through a pile of snow that was hiding a granite curb back in 1989 – won’t do that again, not that I could do it in Florida today. Today I would just call AAA.
“Maybe you should pay more attention to what you are driving over?”
Yeah, Oberkanone, you fucking idiot!
Can’t you see that nail in the lane at 70 mph? Kevin can both see it coming and watch a quarter mile down the interstate like a proper race car driver because he has chameleon eyes that can individually pivot.
Why don’t you?
Yeah, I guess he has super sonic eyesight or some shit…what a fucking moron…
“I can see every single nail in the road AND avoid them!”
I haven’t looked at my spare in my car’s 12 years and 100K miles. I’m not proud of it, but I otherwise over-maintain my Fit. It’s probably rotten.
Exactly my point – the overwhelming majority of people completely ignore them, and couldn’t use them if they needed to. If nothing else, you can guarantee it doesn’t have sufficient air pressure in it to be safe to use, even if it’s not dry rotted.
Ooooh, you can’t say that kind of stuff out loud or you will end up with two flats on your way home tonight. Don’t tempt the evil spirits.
I fully expect this to happen to me now.
Same. Almost 1M miles. Lots of crap run over from construction sites, but never needed more than those oft-maligned inflation cans. I did have all 4 tires slashed on a Halloween, but a donut wouldn’t have helped.
I’ve never even needed the goo. Just an inflator a couple times to get home.
I very much like having TPMS, preferably with actual pressures displayed so if you have a leak, you know how bad it is and can act accordingly. Modern tech isn’t all bad.
Those TPMSs are great. The ones that just tell you a tire is low are worse than nothing, as a serious difference is obvious without the annoying alerts and a minor difference requires a manual check anyway. When I had that type, most of the time they just told me that a sensor had died—which one? Have fun figuring it out! The procedure was to start at the left front and work clockwise letting pressure out until the horn beeped. Didn’t beep and now your tire is nearly flat? Congrats, that’s the bad one, but is it the only one? In my case, they died every few months, so probably not. My GR86 tells the number and which tire and the sensors are all original with 110k on them so far. I’m a fan of this system and I don’t even mind re-teaching the car when I change between winter and summer wheels.
I disagree somewhat. I’d still rather know, and with modern low profile tires it is not as obvious as you would think. It’s no huge hardship to go around the car and check the pressures if you get an alert.
The right way to do it is to have an adjustable set point though – my Saab 9-3 had a fixed one that was JUST below the normal pressure, so even a really cold morning would set the thing off. My Germans are smarter – set the pressures the way you want them, then reset the system, and it sets the warning at (IIRC) 8psi below whatever they actually were at the time. I’ve gotten nails in tires on the road a few times, it’s nice to be able to just inflate the tire, then the system will tell you if you need to stop and do it again before you get where you need to be. Both times it was fine, just a slow leak, got the tire fixed at my relative leisure.
Across my now 15 and 16yo BMWs, I have had one sensor fail. But BMW supports both physical sensors and using wheel speed sensing for TPMS, so I just coded the 128i to use that system instead. I’ll replace the sensors the next time it gets new tires and code it back at that point. And ugh – systems that can’t self learn sensors should not be allowed. IMHO it’s just one of those things done to drive business to the dealer.
It was cool watching the tire pressures and temperatures increase in real time on the Autobahn on my M235i. I believe BMW’s later system will alert for too high for both as well. My current cars don’t have iDrive, so no info display from the TPMS, just the alert. My Mercedes displays real-time pressure but not temperature.
I don’t need a faulty system designed as quarter-assed as possible to meet a mandate to tell me I have an issue or not. I don’t drive on rubber bands or garbage run-flats that I can’t tell by feel or look. Either way, I either already know or I’m checking manually. I don’t think I ever got a single alert of value from the system in about 380k miles, but I did get constant annoyances for failed sensors and a failed sensor doesn’t tell anything. Seems strangely discordant to defend these worthless systems then state that an actually useful version of the system that can’t self-learn shouldn’t be allowed. A good scanner was about $125, is pleasantly quality feeling (something very rare nowadays), and the procedure takes less time than putting it back in the case. Any tire shop will do it. If you’re not swapping mounted wheels at home, which most people don’t do, it’s a non-issue. I can’t imagine choosing to go to the dealer for it.
You may not, but many do. I too am quite capable of feeling that something is off with the car just from how it drives – but that is the exception. I like a belt and suspenders situation when it’s not TOO painful – I take good care of my cars, but I probably don’t check pressures as often as I should. And for many cars with low profile tires, you really can’t tell at all until it’s too late. I hate rubber band tires and mostly refuse to have them on my cars, but again, we aren’t the norm today, they are pretty much the default.
I keep using my sainted mother as an example, but she absolutely would drive a leaking tire to destruction (and she did when I was a kid at least once), so getting an alert something is up, even from a less than ideal system, is a *good thing*. She is a lovely and talented woman in many, many ways, but her ability (really more her level of giving a shit) with anything mechanical today is basically non-existent, and she treats driving as a very necessary evil. She is far more like the general public than either of us. So when she got a TPMS alert in her Soul, she called me (I have at least trained her to NOT ignore warning lights), and I told her to go straight to the nearest shop that looked like it had a mechanic. They were nice enough to put air in the tire for her, then she drove the thing to the KIA dealership, where they plugged the tire for her.
If that had happened pre-TPMS, chances are excellent the call would have been “I am stuck on the side of the road with a destroyed tire”.
The ability to self-learn exists, so every system should be able to do that – there is no good reason not to have that ability if you are already going to the expense of having sensors – what can it possibly cost, $.25/ea? Self-learning sensors for my BMWs are cheaper than not self-learning sensors for my buddy’s Forester. Why should I have to spend $125 to do something the car should be able to do all by itself? What’s the advantage to the consumer? Lots of people DO swap winter tires at home, taking them and the car to a shop to do it is a PITA, and these days costs real money quite often. Weird take, IMHO. As I said, I see this as one of those things that is done simply to drive service business. YOU may not take your cars to the dealer, but many people do.
But ultimately it’s pretty moot, because since the Feds have re-allowed speed differential-based TPMS, sensors seem to be going the way of the dodo bird anyway, at least in all but the most expensive and/or high performance cars. Neither my ’17 GTI nor my ’18 Fiata had them, and all the better. Speed sensing works more than good enough for the intended purpose, which is simply to prevent people from driving on underinflated tires and dying as a result of it. My favorite sort of safety feature – a literally free one, since it’s just a few more lines of code in the ABS/stability control computer and a warning light. I’ll live with a few false positives, or even the unlikely event that ALL the tires are low at once (though supposedly some modern systems can sense that too). Perfect should not be the enemy of good enough.
Other people have reported that my particular car has learning sensors and it does seem to follow the tires when I rotate them (though to say for sure as I keep pressures pretty much the same at all corners and I don’t care enough to test it), but I have 2 sets of wheels (OEM and aftermarket) that I change between, so the new set has be taught when they’re swapped. Apparently, there’s a way to log two sets of sensors into the computer via a button in the glovebox, but some people reported that it doesn’t always take the second set or it overwrites the first set. As I got the tool to teach the aftermarket sensors when I got them, I don’t bother with the button as it’s easier to use the tool than risk annoyance.
Speed sensing is a great low end method and should be able to differentiate which tire is the problem, unlike the crap my Fords used that wouldn’t tell you which tire was the problem and the sensors had a lifespan only a little longer than that of bread in the summer. Working off the ABS tone rings, I don’t think there’s any additional cost other than a dash light and some code.
That’s the thing – on my BMWs you can have a dozen sets of wheels and tires, and all you have to do is put a set on the car and drive around the block, and the car automagically knows what is what. That is the standard that should be required if sensors are being used.. No nonsense involved, it “just works”.
By definition the car knows which tire is low based on wheel speed sensing. Whether the automaker chooses to display that information rather than a generic “tire low” message or just a single warning light is a different question entirely. To be honest, I don’t really remember if BMW does if you don’t have iDrive in my generation of cars, but I don’t think they do – I think you need the big screen. The one time I have had a flat on one of mine it was parked at the airport, and I saw it as I walked up the car. Inflated it with the compressor in the trunk and drove the hour home (just a nail that leaked the air over the week I was gone), so I never actually saw the warning. That doesn’t really bother me, I keep a tire pressure gauge in the car. I did get a warning on my GTI due to driving north to much cooler temps, and it did definitely not tell me which corner, but I just stopped at a gas station and put air in all of them, they were all low due to the 40F+ temp change from SW Florida to the mountains of TN. It’s shocking how much low-profile tires change pressure with temperature. One of the few cars I have owned with truly low-profile tires, along with the M235i it replaced. Both on 18s. Technically the GTI could have run 17s as a minimum, but I didn’t worry about that much in Florida. 18s were the minimum on the BMW. BIG brakes on that car.
The issue in the past was that speed sensing wasn’t sensitive enough to tell you if ALL the tires are low at the same time – like due to seasonal temperature changes. They would all still be spinning at the same speed after all, just the wrong speed due to the changed circumference. That has evidently been overcome now, as the Feds changed course and are allowing wheel speed sensing. Or they decided that was the lesser evil to people just not fixing the system when sensors failed and living with the light. Though unless you have snow tires on, it’s an inspection failure in Maine. They did make a specific exception for snow tires to encourage people to use them. Smart.
This and a backup cameras are modern safety requirements that I agree with. Though my mother still managed to back her Prius V into my brother’s truck and crush the hatch even with a camera. Sigh.
Eh. Back in maybe 2017, I spent a week driving on the original spare tire on my old 1982 Volvo 240 wagon.
That tire was in great condition, no dry rot, no cracks. The rubber was fairly supple, and it had plenty of air. I never checked the pressure. Maybe the previous owner, or some eager beaver mechanic, sometime in the proceeding 35 years? I’ll never know. That was a great donut though, it had ‘SPARE’ spelled out in the tread pattern. Almost a pity I didn’t get to use it more often, and maybe why I wasn’t in such a rush to get a new tire.
I’ve been thankful at least 4 times in the last decade to have a proper donut on board, in a range of reliable modern cars. Once was a total sidewall blowout, after my now-wife smashed an unfortunate pothole late at night on a road trip. Sure, we could have called CAA, waited around for an hour in the cold, checked into a motel, and tried to find an open tire shop in the middle of nowhere on a Sunday. Instead, we spent 15min swapping the tire, made it to our destination, and got a new tire at our leisure.
We don’t all spend our time driving around parking lots in sunny Florida, though I do respect your doubling and tripling down on what is an exceedingly poor, anecdotal take.
Generally though, I understand why many cars are eliminating the spare. Most people don’t have the omph to actually get out there and jack the car up. Better to just throw up your hands and call someone.
I don’t spend my time driving around just Florida either, but whatever. <shrug>
As I have also said – I am not lobbying for banning spares, but I VERY much see why manufacturers largely no longer bother. If you are accident-prone, and it seems many here are, you do you.
I’ve used the spare, the jack and the tire iron on all my cars. If I don’t test it I can’t count on it. I really prefer the first time I find the proper jacking point to be low stress, even hard ground (driveway) and well lit. It makes the shit show if you do need it so much easier.
Our Ioniq 6 has no factory spare. Has roadside service instead which means if you get a Flat and the cheap sealant doesn’t fix it you get a tow to a Hyundai dealership where they will sell you a new overpriced tire ( and any any other service they can dream up) once they open and get around to your car. Sucks if you have a flat on a Saturday evening.
We keep an aftermarket spare in the trunk. I’ll still call roadside service but let them change it out for me. All our vehicles have spares.
Have you/your girlfriend given any thought to the Corolla Cross Hybrid? Uses the same hybrid drivetrain and can be fully loaded for $35,000. You lose a little interior space of course, but unless the kids and adults are both all pushing 6’5″, I think you can manage. Fwiw, we now have 25,000 miles on our Cross and it’s one of my favorite vehicles I’ve ever owned or driven
Carmax is a sub-prime financing company that happens to sell cars. There’s a lot of folks that can’t buy new but Carmax will write them a loan. That requires over loan to value supplemental insurance. And a maintenance plan to ensure the car keeps running. What a world, what a world.
Usually they handle that by selling the car for market price and putting the interest on the loan at a rate best described as “patently absurd.”
All the more reason why no one should walk into any sort of car dealership without a loan pre-approval in hand. Will also keep you more honest about what you can afford, as your bank has no interest in over-lending to you to “move the metal”.
My stripped down 2006 Tundra was $17,000 when I bought it new. There was one on the lot with about 6000 miles and it was listed at $18,500. Same spec, different color, higher finance rate because it was used.
Sounds like some things stay the same.
Hundreds of thousands of Toyota loyalists will happily drive past every other auto brand’s dealerships withotu so much as a glance their way to willingly wait wait weeks-to-months after ordering allocated vehicles and deal with the usual Toyota dealer/distributor shenanigans without so much as a test drive (or often any attempt to haggle). Toyota aren’t that great in a vacuum, but it’s reputation, consistently good reviews for most of its models, and almost supernatural ability to introduce the right tech at the right time makes it the best and safest choice among ordinary buyers stressed by time, tech, finances, and traffic.
Toyota’s high demand and limited inventory drives its used market where Toyotas may be pricey, but that 2023 RAV4 with 40K miles @ $42K is still cheaper and available now versus waiting weeks for a factory ordered 2026 at $42K before the thousands of difficult-to-negotiable dealer add-ons. Buyers unwilling to consider any other brand (not even Honda) will make the choice.
I’ve given up trying to understand why people do what they do. You’ll never be able to deconstruct the tortured logic required to panic-buy a used Rav4 in order to save money on fuel.
Probably the same people who hoarded TP a few years ago
AKA the median voter.
Hey, don’t forget that when you buy used, you also get to pay a higher interest rate!
So, yeah. You’re probably not wrong.
That’s not necessarily true. In general, new car interest rates are only really lower when the manufacturer finance arm is subsidizing them to move the metal. Toyota has NO problem moving the metal, and in my experience their interest rates are actually on the high side.
Great when you can get it though – getting .9% on my mother’s Soul made paying cash for thing a non-starter. In fact, we should have put less down on it in hindsight. But my credit union AND my bank offer the same rates on new or up to 4yo used cars. And better rates than what you are likely to get from a dealer absent those special deals.
Yes, it’s not necessarily true, but it’s not necessarily false either. From my experience it generally seems to be dependent on the age of the vehicle (new enough and you get a lower rate), and of course credit score.
I’ve seen it vary from 4 to 7 years, depending upon institution, though recently I’ve seen somebody advertise the same interest rate regardless of the age of the vehicle.
Usually I’ll walk in the door with financing already arranged. Frequently when buying new the manufacturer financing beats the credit union, and in one case the dealer found a bank that beat what I came in with when buying used.
Indeed – 50:50 over a BUNCH of cars having the dealer beat my bank. When I bought my 500 Abarth, not only did the dealer beat my bank, they beat the advertised deal that Fiat themselves had by a half point with a bank I had never heard of. But just as often, they didn’t.
But the thing is, absent knowing you are pre-approved (and for the love of Dog do NOT tell them what your pre-approved rate is, just that you already have financing in place and they are welcome to try to better it), they have zero incentive to even try to get you a good deal, and every incentive to mark up the rate as much as they think you will let slide by to pad thier own pockets. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.
Just this morning I read that right about half of American adults cannot read or write at a 6th grade level. Math is in a similar boat. I’ve made lots of jokes about average and median Americans but didn’t fully realize just how bad it is nowadays.
Combine this stat with its implications for a democracy and you can see why I view all the 250th banners more as an epitaph than a celebration.
We are not doing well.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
― George Carlin
Spending tens of thousands to save tens of dollars a month. The American way!
And then when gas prices drop and the market for them is no longer as hot, sell it and buy another gas guzzler that is now in high demand because everyone else wants one again too!
Oh yeah, that is the part 2. No lessons ever learned.
We’re simultaneously agreeing so well here but disagreeing so hard on the spare tire thing!
Happens. I don’t hate everything about modern cars. Some things are for the better overall, and no spares is one of them as far as I am concerned. Ultimately, it’s quite true to my general automotive ethos – I don’t like paying for things I will pretty much never use. And that is before getting into the (lack of) safety aspects of changing a wheel other than in a properly equipped shop off the side of the road. The jack included with a car is inevitably a deathtrap in the making. And good luck getting the wheel off once the tire monkeys have been at it with the included lug wrench.
I find spare tires to be a weird automotive safety blanket for some people. Unless you live in some weird location where there are nails everywhere, fail to maintain your car, or have chosen a stupid wheel and tire package for your driving environment, chances are excellent the thing will go to the junkyard having never been out of the trunk today. Temp spares are only slightly better than nothing, and full-size are expensive in both cost and space.
Preach!
Probably the same people who ate Tide Pods
I was in a Toyota dealer next to a Subaru dealer owned by the same people not that long ago. It was shockingly different. Subaru was waiting outside just sort of show you stuff saying things aren’t selling that well we can make you a deal. Toyota they come after you look for a bit and then want you inside where there are still people buying cars. No real deals not much talk of deals. They have had it too easy for too long. But their biggest problem is Toyota will load them up with something discount it then they will sell a bunch then people will want it when they have none. Mavericks are still going for more then new too. I bet several other Toyota models are as as well. Strange times. I believe part of it is people don’t want to deal with the dealers.
Mavericks were starting to get discounted around here – not a lot, but $1000 on a base hybrid AWD and a little more on the higher trims. Shockingly, that went aways a few weeks ago when gas prices went through the roof.
Doesn’t Ford still offer employee pricing to all deals? I thought it ran through June.
It’s there but doesn’t do much in many markets. It’s probably a or b plan pricing. I’m not sure Maverick is included in all markets either? But there are still some new 2025s available in certain parts of the country.
Texas and Florida seem to be the value leaders. Multiple dealers have them discounted to the mid 20s. Even in markets where they aren’t discounting much. A new one might be $27k or if you want AWD $30k. The used with 50k mi will be right up there with it. If you go to lower mileage it’s even crazier.
Florida dealers then add back ridiculous doc fees. Some of the dealers around me have $1500+, legitimately non-negotiable doc fees. They will discount the car more to make you feel like you got a “deal”, but ultimately you end up paying the same price. No clue about Texas, probably the same game.
I recently purchased a used vehicle from a Honda dealer. The salesman I worked with was quick to give us his story. He was relatively new to that dealership after about 12 years of working at Toyota stores. He told me that he made the move because he “was starving” due to the lack of new car inventory.
They don’t have to work hard to sell a Toyota from every dealer I’ve talk to it’s always the same people selling the cars. Plus people come looking for one specific model they don’t have. Probably less flexible then other buyers.
He did say he loved selling Toyota since they pretty much sell themselves. However it is hard to sell vehicles you don’t have.
Now I’m curious, what’s the ATP (not list, sticker, MSRP or any of the other synonyms used in the article) on the trims of new RAV4 Hybrid?
Don’t know if you trust an AI summary, but this makes the used prices easier to understand:
Actual Portland Metro Transaction Trends (Last 90 Days)
Data compiled from localized buyer registries and dealer transaction logs reveals that new RAV4 Hybrids command a +23.3% average market premium in the Pacific Northwest. [1]
Trim Level [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7]Base Window Sticker RangeActual Local Transaction Range (Before Taxes/Fees)Common Local Market Markup StyleLE / SE$33,350 – $36,150$37,000 – $39,500Forced port/dealer add-on packages (e.g., paint protection, all-weather gear).XLE Premium$37,550 – $38,950$41,000 – $42,500Direct market adjustments or high-margin accessory additions.Woodland / XSE$41,350 – $42,750$43,400 – $47,500Flat cash market adjustments up to $4,000 due to severe allocation shortages.Limited$44,750+$46,500 – $48,000+Pure supply-and-demand cash premiums.
Yeah that is something everyone seems to leave out of these resale value calculations. Not sure about right now but I’m assuming many dealers are still tacking a significant ADP sticker on any new unit that actually makes it to the sales floor. Meanwhile other vehicles are said to have poor resale value that regularly sold below or well below MSRP thanks to rebates and other discounts.
This is it exactly. If my local Toyota dealership is one to judge by, there is automatically $3-6K (or more) of add-ons on top of the advertised price, which in my area is seeing a “market adjustment” of $3K on every single 2026 RAV4.
The list of vehicles with the lowest depreciation is inevitable the list of vehicles that had the highest ATP, and vice-versa.
Very much this. Toyota dealers “know what they got” and act accordingly. You won’t get out the door without the Tru-Coat (“they put it on at the factory”), pinstripes, window tint, nitrogen-filled tires, and etc. I’d bet the ATP is $5k+ over sticker.
I looked it up and tried to post the results for my area, but pasting a Gemini search results gets your comment blocked. 3-5k above, either admitting it’s ADM or pretending it’s dealer added features.
No one gets it for MSRP in the PNW, but Edmonds says you should expect to pay 1k under because…. They are lying for financial reasons I’m not read in on.
And now for “the rest of the story”. (Yes I’m old) I happened to be scrolling though news articles and came across one from the LA times. It included a line that according to Consumer Reports 2026 RAV-4s are selling for about 4% over sticker price.
The RAV4 hoopla has always been a bit strange to me, because it’s been a very long time since it’s been class leading. The Toyota Tax is real, and Toyota’s dealerships/allocation bullshit are among the worst of the worst and drive the prices up in a way that benefits everyone EXCEPT the consumer, as is tradition.
…but you don’t have to buy one of these! You can just go look at countless other midsized crossovers. My father in law and mother in law bought a top trim new (last gen) RAV4 and a top trim new (current gen) CRV back to back maybe 3 or 4 years ago. Neither are hybrids because they were unobtanium when they were shopping.
I’ve driven both multiple times and it’s shocking how much nicer the CRV is. Like…every single aspect of the car is better. The interior quality, the space, the powertrain, the soundsytem…it’s literally like comparing a luxury car to an economy car. The RAV is loud, rattly, raspy, and the interior is approximately 90% hard plastic. I’d put it on par with my 2022 Kona N, which is notorious for having a mediocre, drab interior.
I haven’t driven a new one yet but the initial batch of reviews is unflattering and suggest it’s still behind the CRV that’s been around for what…4 years now? Woof. Honda dealerships near me (in one of the most expensive places in the country, no less) will sell you a new CRV hybrid for a discount, and last I checked they max out at $44,000. I’d know, I’m trying to convince my wife it’s enough space for two kids and that she doesn’t need a boat.
But as people mention, the CX50 hybrid is literally a RAV4 hybrid in a tailored suit and they’re plentiful. I get that during these nightmarish economic times resale value is on everyone’s mind…but these cars exist to be bought, kept, and beaten into the ground for a decade plus. Is that extra, I don’t know…$3-5,000 you MIGHT get back at the end really worth it? My free quick maths say it’s not. At all.
Also, while inexplicably not a hybrid, you can get a loaded Acura ADX for less than what these RAVs are selling for. It won’t be as efficient and is slow as molasses, but it’s a way, way nicer car and you get a more prestigious badge. I’m confident they would serve the average RAV4 enjoyer quite well.
The comment on resale is just for the monthly payment or something else?
Toyota are overhyped by consumers. Hondas are overhyped by the “enthusiast” press and forums.
The smart buyer ignores the hype, tries both to see what they like, tries other brands to ensure they’re not missing something, and then does some basic math to make sure they’re not paying too much.
Acura has no prestige at this point and the ADX is seriously embarrassing. I’d rather overpay for a RAV4 than sticker for an ADX. That wheezing 1.5 +CVT is barely adequate in the Integra.
Btw, if that RAV4 is 90% hard plastic inside, it’s not a top trim. A coworker has one and the entire dash and door panels front and back from armrest to glass are padded and stitched. It’s a nicer interior than the two new midtrim CRVs in the family that have hard rear door panels and unremarkable materials up front.
Both are far nicer than the mid-aught versions, and neither holds a candle to the outgoing CX5.
The loyalty of Toyota buyers is a reliability cult. For them, no other brand is worth consideration because they assume all other brands’ vehicles are shiny junk with poor resale value and will fall apart before reaching 100K miles.
I also find that they poo-poo issues that would have other make’s owners raging.
Love blanket statements like this. A million buyers a year and this guy really knows something about them, it’s amazing. Maybe he can also tell us about the one million F-150 buyers each year. Cult? Did they cross shop? What about H/K buyers? Are they morons just chasing the newest feature list for the lowest price? Nissan? Surely all credit criminals.
Let’s test this. I bought a new Toyota in 2016 and still have it. Tell me all about myself and my specific decision making process there.
My local Mazda dealer has 19 CX-50 Hybrids in stock. The most expensive one is $42,000.
Also worth noting that Mazda regularly does 0% APR for 60/72 months on the CX-50, which once you do the math ends up being a screaming deal.
Yes, unless you truly need the additional rear seat space and cargo capacity of the RAV, this seems like the way to go.
And they are so handsome compared to just about any other crossover thing.
The ability of Americans to spend many thousands in capital costs to save tens in operating costs shows just how bad math education is in this country.
It’s not about the math. It’s about having a good excuse to consume and therefore fulfill one’s societal purpose.
Right…
I find it to be far more about the inability to analyze the situation. Which takes understanding math.
If there’s someone driving inappropriately slow and in everyone’s way, they’re probably driving a RAV4. Other contenders include a number of Subarus, Lexuses and other Toyotas. I think it’s blind trust. People who don’t care enough about cars and driving to research their car purchase just automatically trust these brands and since they don’t care about driving or even see it as a chore that cuts in to their precious screen time, they’re bad at it or scared of it.
This comment is a pearly example of bad car “enthusiast” stereotypes and tropes. Sorry, but it is. Fabricated quasi-stats and some ludicrous social analysis coming to a conclusion that sure doesn’t reek of confirmation bias.
This, coming from a person trying to police an internet comment section. Good luck with that.
Cry harder?
I think that’s the trendy retort right now.
My anecdotal car truth is that every minivan you see on the road is either going 5 under or 15-20 over. They are incapable of driving at the speed limit.
And the ‘under’ people are most like on their phone, oblivious to their task of driving….applies to all age groups.
If I was in the market for an AWD SUV, the Mazda MX-50 would be my 1st choice.
An even better deal, if you can still find them and can live with FWD only and 1K towing is the discontinued Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid. It’s got the same excellent hybrid powertrain as the Maverick but with the much larger battery and the ability to recharge every night, so you get 35-40 miles all battery range before the ICE kicks in, and when it does kick in, you’ve still got an excellent big battery hybrid (low 40s mpg in town).
Ford was giving them away a few months ago. Last October my daughter got a brand new 25 PHEV for $27K that had a sticker of $54K! Of course the dealer also started with over 2K in BS add-ons that we eventually negotiated away to 0$ (dent protection, nitrogen, fabric protection and dark window tints// we kept the tints for free!). We used Ford points to add the very nice Ford 2″ hitch receiver for a bike rack, and added from Amazon roof rails so it’s a pretty nice piece of kit now.
Nice ride and decently equipped much like the 25 Mavericks with adaptive cruise, lane centering, wireless carplay, etc… and of course you can plug it in overnight (120v or 220v) and get topped off for the daily commute. There may still be a few hanging around on lots, then they’re gone.
Hopefully Ford eventually realizes that not everyone wants a brick-shaped SUV or pickuptruck.
It always marvels me the US add-ons when buying car. This doesn’t happen here.
It’s dealer-specific. None of the dealers I’ve bought from, used or new, tried to force any add-ons on me. The person handling financing and such will suggest things, usually warranty-related, but I’ve never had to ask to remove anything.
That is my experience in Europe, you can get warranty, servicing or insurance thrown in, but they are completely optional.
Also nothing regarding “dent protection” or “nitrogen tyres”…
They are completely optional here too. If a dealer tries to make them not be, there is inevitably another dealer a town or two over. That’s the magic thing about new cars, you can buy them all over the place and they are all the same.
At the one good dealership I’ve dealt with, at the sales-closing point, the sales guy said, “ok, now I’ll take you to the finance guy, and he’s obligated to ask you about add-ons, but there’s no pressure, you can just say no.” And as promised, the finance guy said “ I have to ask you, but we can get thru it quickly. Do you want A?” “No.” “Do you want B?” “No.” How about C or D?” “No thanks.” “Ok, no problem, I’ll write up the final paperwork.”
My last two purchase experiences, at Kia and Acura dealers, have been pretty similar. It helps to go in with preapproved financing. In the case of the Acura, I think the F&I guy got through the requisite spiel in about 15 minutes.
That’s good to hear it about a Kia dealer, since the dealerships have such a bad rep.
We have a BAD Kia dealership here in my town. They make their sales droids sit out under a tent in the FL sun waiting for victims to roll in. They also put $3K+ of allegedly “mandatory” TruCoat BS on every car on the lot. We test drove every KIA that my mother was interested in there, because convenient location, but I couldn’t be bothered to even attempt to negotiate a deal with them based on reputation alone. There are four KIA dealerships within an hour drive of us, so why bother? The one I did the deal with was happy to do it over the phone, and we were in and out from signing the paperwork in about 30 minutes, and 15 of that was waiting for the finance dude to be done with the previous client. The way it should work. The price was “reasonable” for the time. Small discount plus a couple small rebates. I was not expecting pricing miracles on a car that retailed for $20,500 in ’23.
I will say that while their sales operation is horrific by all accounts, the local dealer service department has been excellent. No real issues with her Soul, just routine services there and a leaking tire repaired (they fixed that for FREE!). Easy to get an appointment, they will drive you home and come pick you up when it’s done, etc. Hopefully never need to deal with KIA warranty service. She drives about 3K a year so I expect this to be her last ride if she doesn’t total the poor thing. She’s banged it up twice, once her fault, once not. Sigh. Walmart parking lots are a menace.
I bought my car and my wife’s car used from two different Kia dealers near me and the buying experience at both of them was shockingly good. Sure they offered all the BS add-ons but all it took was a firm No from me and the place where I bought my car discounted the car enough for me to buy it a new set of tires.
That is literally every dealership I have ever bought a car from. I’d actually LOVE for one of these supposed high-pressure finance guys to try this crap on me. I am sure I would find it amusing.
It’s not universal, but it’s easy money for the franchise dealers. They add on crap that costs them pennies and charge thousands. Huge profit margin!
I usually start any conversation with a salesperson with “Any dealer add-ons are a non-starter for us. If you add them, I’m not going to pay an extra penny. Do you want to continue with this sale?” . It’s been about 50% successful. I walk out / hang up on any that don’t agree up front.
There use to be a dealership near me that required a $500 non-refundable deposit before they let you know the price of the car. That lasted from the 1980s into the 2000s. They do not do that anymore.
Excuse me? 😮
That sounds immensely illegal, even in legality-wise yee-haw states like Arizona.
Good lord – why would anybody go along with that? Where they they sole car dealer for 500 miles in any direction?
Baffling.
They called it a holding fee, hold, or deposit. Yea it was a scam but they got away with it for a long time.
I should have pointed out that the Ford Maverick and Ford Escape Hybrids have a drivetrain that is based on the same Toyota hybrid design (I’ve read conflicting information on if it was co-developed or just copied), but in general, it’s known as a Ford/Toyota hybrid. It’s excellent.
It is excellent, but to add to the confusion, my current understanding is they were developed independently at the same time. IDK the real story, but Ford has definitely been doing this version of hybridization just as long as Toyota.
Ford and Toyota separately developed their original Hybrids, though when it came down to the finish line a few things were similar enough that there were some cross licensing agreements, though the architecture was significantly different. Toyota eventually started copying Ford’s archetecture since it was designed for high speed engine off operation and to allow for a larger traction motor, both needs for a good PHEV version.
Independently developed and cross-licensed to avoid a legal battle. For once two automakers got smart.
Yeah the Escape PHEV is the unsung super effecient CUV. We have two in the family. Once the EV battery runs out I get high 40’s around town and on road trips that don’t include areas with 80mph speed limits it will average 40mpg or better thanks to that big battery.
However that big battery is the small elephant in the room. There have been issues that resulted several months of do not charge. Then several months after the “fix” they have put on a do not charge past 80% order that also precludes using any mode other than Auto.
Yep. We’ve conflicting data on the do not charge over 80%. Nothing in the app or online. We charge to 100% and haven’t burnt down the house yet.
The recall does state “some” vehicles and says 2020-2026 in one place and 2020-2025 in other places. It is not showing up in the app for either of ours. We did receive a recall letter for the one we’ve had since new. When we bought the second one used a few weeks ago the Honda dealer did have us sign paperwork that stated that vehicle had 2 open recalls and what they were.
Both show up in the VIN search linked in this notice. Since it does say “some” yours may not be affected. https://www.fromtheroad.ford.com/us/en/articles/2025/recall-update-2020-2024-ford-escape-lincoln-corsair
I prefer the normally aspirated super-reliable FOMOCO/Mazda ICE engine in the Escape/Mav hybrids than the smaller turbo’d in the hybrid Kia/Hyundais. – though I am a big fan of the Kia/Hyundai EVs and appreciate the longer warranties the S. Korean pair offers.
Tell me more about this dent protection.
🙂 I had the same question!
It’s not an after-market force field or any actual protective agent applied to the car or doors or anything. It’s just an over-priced insurance policy against dings. I looked at the brochure… covers just small diameter dents that get popped out as covered by the policy
for free. Total rip off scam by the dealer as any dent that small is easy enough to repair, and anything, larger comprehensive insurance should cover it.At least the fabric protection had someone presumably spray coat the seats with a $5 can of stuff from AutoZone, not the it matters… all just a super-high-margin profit play by the dealer to uneducated auto buyers.
The dealer (AutoNation Ford) had already had the windows tinted professionally as part of the add-ons. Not really our thing but at least is was done right and looks good. We negotiated (“.. I walk away if I have to pay for any of this unwanted crap”) so didn’t get charged, but was told the dent protection / fabric protection wouldn’t be covered. Fine with us.
…and when we picked up the PHEV, they kept all that sweet, delicious nitrogen in the tires too! We got that for FREE! What a deal!
You know what? It’s not a bad car.
Wealthier neighbourhoods near me have fewer and fewer Audi/MB SUVs, and more and more Toyota SUVs.
This is the sort of market where I’d tell anyone looking for a car like this to just bite the bullet and hire a service like Delivrd to do the dirty work for you. Sure it’s 1k up front, but with a market this tight I would almost guarantee you’ll recoup way more than that on the savings a professional car negotiator will get a normie versus getting hosed walking into a Toyota dealership.
Either that or get a CX-50 Hybrid with the exact same powertrain, a nicer interior, and save yourself 10k. That’s what I’d recommend and it’s not even close.
I doubt the best negotiator in the world will squeeze a penny in discount out of a dealer on one of these. The demand is ridiculous, and the supply is very limited.
Good cars certainly, but I would never pay the Toyota Tax on one new or used. Buy what’s NOT hot. So your suggestion of the Mazda is *excellent* if you desire this sort of thing.
Maybe yes maybe no, but a good negotiator will at least find a better deal than what is slapped in front of you if you walk into a dealer with no research. At a minimum can get a deal done without extra packages and things some dealerships are pushy about. Markups may be standard across the board, but some are worse than others. Also I know a TON of people that don’t want the stress, so a break-even or slightly increased cost is easily worth the lack of pain.
If you walk into a dealership that way, you are a moron.
I can say from experience with these services back when I was looking for a car for my mother that in situations like this the honest ones won’t even take your money.
I completely agree, but there are a LOT of uninformed people in this country with a 750 Fico and $600/mo burning a hole in their pocket that are convinced that the sales guy at the dealer is on their side. I really wished more people realized how scummy many dealers were.
I don’t think there is really anyone who thinks a dealer is on their side at this point. Car salesmen as a rule having a reputation only slightly higher than child molesters.
Ultimately, it’s their money to blow as they see fit.
Even brokers have no leverage on these cars. Can go on Lease Hackr and see posts where the brokers admit there is no point. It has been the same way for Siennas and Grand Highlander hybrids.
You as a customers are hoping for an allocation of a car that hasn’t been built yet. Maybe a broker with a good dealer connection can get you an allocation, which can be half the battle.
If you don’t want it at MSRP, someone else will come in before the end of the day and take it. If someone drops out of the deal at the last minute, they’ll see it before the end of the weekend.
List price =/= sale price, until someone buys these we don’t know of that’s the true market value.
If I list a matchbox car on Craigslist for $49999 it doesn’t make it more valuable than a RAV4.
Sure, I could sell my 2022 RAV4 Prime for a premium…
and replace it with what? Its the greatest utilitarian car I’ve ever owned. It itself replaced a Highlander Hybrid Ltd.
It’s funny that Mazda has the same powertrain but there’s nearly 6000 hybrid CX-50s avaialble. We’re out of Forester hybrids here at the Subaru Dealership, a few Crosstrek hybrids left. Mazda needs to double down on their hybrid advertising
Found a good deal on a used 2025 CX-50 hybrid. Wife test drove it and complained the driver’s seat was uncomfortable. She prefers my Mom’s 2020 RAV-4 hybrid, sigh…
Disgusting prices. I get the price/demand part of capitalism and the “always buy used” obsession. I just think there are a lot of good cars for a lot less. But smarts and money do not always get along.
The “Toyota Tax” is a real thing.
At some point, it’s not the fault of capitalism, just dumb FOMO idiots who can’t do basic homework.
As multiple people have pointed out, the CX-50 is the same drivetrain in a nicer package and can be had for far less, and is available. If any of the people paying these prices bothered to do any research at all, then these prices would be much lower.
Well said, I tossed in the capitalism stuff to try to reduce the pedantic comments a bit.