Do you ever just go to the EPA’s fuel economy website for fun? No? That’s weird? You’d never do that in a million years if you didn’t have to? Oh. Well, I do, often, just because I’m curious about how random cars that pop into my brain do on mpg. If that’s weird of me, so be it.
Recently, I went to look up the fuel economy ratings for a Ram 3500, just because I was looking at used examples for sale for some reason I’ve since forgotten about. But the Ram 3500 wasn’t listed on the EPA’s site. In fact, there are no Class 3 pickups listed on the EPA’s site—the largest trucks you’ll find are from the 1/2-ton category, trucks like the F-150 and the regular Silverado.
For some reason, I forgot that these big pickups, like the Silverado 3500, the Ford F-350, the Ram 3500, aren’t subject to the same rules as their smaller siblings. While makers of trucks like the Ram 1500 and the GMC Sierra 1500 need to submit fuel economy info to the EPA and post that info on window stickers, trucks with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)—that is, the total weight of the truck and its maximum cargo capacity combined—of over 8,500 pounds don’t have to.
It’s not just fuel economy ratings where these trucks get a pass. It’s in crash safety, too. These big-boy HD trucks aren’t subject to many of the same safety standards as the smaller trucks, SUVs, and sedans you see on the road, which means they can often lack lifesaving safety equipment. But that’s about to change.
Big Trucks Are Getting The Safety Analysis They Deserve

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety announced today it would begin conducting tests and issuing safety ratings for Class 3 pickups and commercial vans—those with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds to 14,000 pounds, like the 3500-series trucks mentioned above. The reason? They’re involved in a pretty large portion of all fatal crashes each year in the United States. From the announcement (emphasis mine):
In 2023, 6,535 people were killed in crashes involving heavy- or medium-duty trucks or light vans, accounting for 16% of all roadway fatalities in the U.S. Improving the safety of these vehicles is crucial as we strive toward our 30×30 vision of reducing fatalities 30% by 2030.
Gaps in the U.S. vehicle safety system make commercial vehicles riskier to both their drivers and to those they share the road with. Many government safety standards that apply to passenger vehicles don’t apply to commercial vehicles, which means they often lack basic features like airbags. There are also no requirements for automatic emergency braking or other advanced driver assistance systems. These systems are particularly important when you consider that most people who die in truck crashes are other road users.
That last bit is what I think is most important. It’s usually not the truck drivers themselves who are dying in these wrecks; it’s the people in the other car (or cars). This isn’t entirely surprising to hear. Back in 2023, the IIHS released a study showing that vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends (i.e., pickup trucks, big SUVs, and vans) were “45 percent more likely to cause fatalities in pedestrian crashes than cars and other vehicles with a hood height of 30 inches or less and a sloping profile.”
Modern pickup trucks are notorious for having hugely tall, vertical noses that, in certain situations, can partially or fully obscure shorter people and children from the driver’s view, which is obviously a safety concern. The least that these trucks can have are sensors or cameras to ensure the driver is well-informed of their surroundings. Many of them already do, but it’s important to hold carmakers accountable through proper testing.
No Actual Crash Testing Yet

In its announcement, the IIHS says testing of these Class 3 vehicles has already begun. The organization plans to start revealing ratings pretty soon, but for now, there’s no mention of actual crash tests. From the release:
This spring, we’ll release occupant protection ratings for these vehicles, based on whether they are equipped with things like airbags and advanced seat belts. At the same time, we’ll be completing tests of their crash avoidance capabilities on our track, the results of which will be published later.
This makes sense, considering the IIHS’s emphasis is on making sure these trucks have tech that can avoid crashes, rather than direct occupant protection. The org also hinted at the idea of growing its field of tests to include even bigger vehicles:
Cargo vans and big pickups are only the beginning. In the coming years, we expect to expand our evaluations to include box trucks and potentially even tractor-trailers.
As someone who stands 5-foot-9-inches on a good day with thick-soled shoes, I welcome the IIHS’s new endeavor to take a look at large pickup safety. I’m sure many of you who drive low-slung sedans or sports cars have disappeared beneath the view of a big pickup while on a highway, only for that pickup to forget you were there and merge into you. If the IIHS’s efforts mean these trucks have the safety sensors to keep me out of harm’s way, either as a pedestrian or another driver, I’m all for it.
Top graphic image: Ram









At the very least, we should close the licensure loophole — if a vehicle is exempt from certain passenger-vehicle safety regulations, it should require a more stringent license to drive. Stop classing it by weight, make all the people who buy them get a commercial license, and remove the RV exemption too.
As a Cdl a holder… I agree.
About dang time
Ok, I’m glad it’s not just me who does this for fun
Yes that was nice to hear, haha!
I use fuelly.com to check real world MPG from drivers who track and report what they get. It’s helped me when considering vehicles.
7000 lb F250 vs your honda accord. > You are dead. He sleeps in his own bed.
Have you ever noticed how aggressive F250 drivers are? Serious. It IS not my imagination.
A great argument for the implementation of Tullock’s Spike as a safety device
I was unaware it had a name. Thanks.
Too easy to remove with an angle grinder.
So drive an Altima instead. Altima laugh at anything so puny as a F250:
https://komonews.com/news/local/woman-miraculously-escapes-with-minor-injuries-after-car-flattened-by-semi-truck
I’m less concerned in my Accord than I am in my Miata.
F250 have nothing on the aggressiveness of Ram drivers.
I’ve lived in the rural south most of my life and anecdotally, Ram trucks seem to have the highest percentage of aggressive idiot drivers and the 2500s (especially the diesel) are the absolute worst. All pickups seem to have a higher than average chance on having an aggressive driver, but that’s probably just demographics. The only car that even comes close is the 15 year old Nissan Altima with the wrong color, damaged or missing bumper. Nevermind the qualification, all old Altimas are like that.
I’ve also noted that the chance of idiot driver increases proportionally to the amount of customization a truck has received (lift, wheels, murrican flag graphics, cow catcher, custom bumper, excessive stickers about hunting or just guns in general, coal rolling exhaust, etc). The worst are the ones with a lift and huge custom wheels with low profile tires that would be worthless off-road. Off-road cosplay is ridiculous.
Did y’all see the Drive article that Ram 2500 drivers have the highest DUI rate at 5%? It’s always who you suspect the most.
The jokes write themselves with the Brodozer crowd. Which is a bit of a shame…I think there’s a lot of really cool engineering that goes into modern trucks and I have no issue with the people who use them as the tools they were designed to be. But alas….
I am not surprised they always ride my ass and they always seem to think their trucks are race cars. (Though when driving me 92 D250 I act like it is a race car when shifting through gears going from 0-60 measured by a calendar instead of a stop watch)
well yeah, they got a Hemi, just like Richard Petty!
Haha hell it is even the Cummins guys (well when it is the lifted ones normally stock height ones are driven normally)
Oh man. I could always tell when one neighbor on the ranch where I used to live got home from the hills by the sound of the Cummins rattle ending and a mess of Keystone empties tumbling out of the opened door.
Wait. They still sell Keystone beer?
Unfortunately, yes. Only Ice got discontinued.
Wow.
The sale of 4500s and 5500s will soar to bypass this.
Don’t have to have a CDL to drive them? I thought that was the big reason why there aren’t private versions of them from the big 3. Like you can’t get a 5500 Denali
Not according to Google.
https://www.google.com/search?q=do+you+have+to+have+a+cdl+to+buy+a+chevrolet+kodiak+c4500&sca_esv=ae2767497e191e28&sxsrf=ANbL-n5tbOgtMU1aHaM1V3z9E7BKryS66g%3A1774038342907&source=hp&ei=Rq29aausNOyNwbkPn_7QsQY&biw=411&bih=773&oq=do+you+have+to+have+a+CDL+to+buy+a+Chevrolet+Kodiak+&gs_lp=EhFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBoCGAIiNGRvIHlvdSBoYXZlIHRvIGhhdmUgYSBDREwgdG8gYnV5IGEgQ2hldnJvbGV0IEtvZGlhayAqAggGMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKsCMgUQIRirAjIIEAAYogQYiQVIrb4CUMEEWNaTAnAFeACQAQCYAZUHoAHJYKoBDzAuMTcuMTEuMy40LjQuMrgBAcgBAPgBAZgCLqAClW-oAhDCAgYQswEYhQTCAhAQABgDGLQCGOoCGI8B2AEBwgIQEC4YAxi0AhjqAhiPAdgBAcICDhAuGIAEGLEDGIMBGIoFwgIFEC4YgATCAgQQABgDwgIREC4YgAQYsQMY0QMYgwEYxwHCAg4QLhiABBixAxjRAxjHAcICBRAAGIAEwgIOEAAYgAQYsQMYgwEYigXCAggQABiABBixA8ICCxAAGIAEGLEDGIMBwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAgsQLhiABBjHARivAcICCBAuGIAEGLEDwgIIEAAYgAQYyQPCAggQABiABBiLA8ICBhAAGBYYHsICBxAAGIAEGA3CAgcQIRigARgKwgIJEAAYFhjJAxgewgILEAAYgAQYhgMYigXCAgUQABjvBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEmAOZAvEFQnlwiGNt2666BgQIARgKkgcPNC4xMi4xNi4yLjguMi4yoAf4swKyBw8wLjEyLjE1LjIuOC4yLjK4B-FrwgcMMy02LjI5LjkuMS4xyAejDoAIAA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp
That’s crazy but I believe it.
Yup you don’t need a CDL to drive a 4500 or 5500 my job requires us to have one if we are driving them off ground which is kind of weird but understandable. I would say normal joe blow does not buy them because they cost so damn much.
I wonder if GM, Ford and Ram realize that if they made high trim (tremor, rebel, platinum, denali) 5500 trucks that people would pay $150k+ for them.
2500 and 3500 trucks already ride pretty bad. 4500 and 5500 are on a whole ‘nother level and ride like complete dog shit unloaded. I honestly don’t think they would be big sellers just because they ride so so so bad and so focused for commercial use. Sure, a few people would still probably get them just like the MXT or some of relatively uncommon Ford F550+ conversions you see; but most people would steer clear after driving around for 2 seconds in one. They rattle your fillings loose, every service part is like 2x+ the price of their already big burly 3500, and they are just too focused on commercial use to make them comfortable enough for the.
Never underestimate the ability to spite ones own face out of pettiness.
I drive a CV at work (same as a Chevy 5500) and yeah the right height is a bit higher then a 3500 and they are a bit bigger also the ride like crap no idea why someone would want one for personal use unless they need it for work/hauling also.
They ride worse than a semi. A semi has air suspension on axles and seat. Half tons feel rough to me. Had a one ton for ranch work, there is a reason I got rid of it.
I drove F550s for years, and they feel great, like driving a heavy F150. A bit bouncy when empty, but they corner flat, and steer nicely. You can pretty much hustle them around like a car, for better or worse… That said, a working 450/550 always has some sort of substantial truck body on it, unlike a 3/4 ton pickup truck, which has barely any weight over the rear axle when unloaded.
I’ve never driven an Chevy 3500/4500, but I have driven a Topkick /International CV, which ride like complete garbage.
The real reason private individuals will never drive 4500/5500 series trucks for ‘fun’ would be they are only sold as chassis cabs. A 3500 dually pickup is 99% the same thing anyways, aside from the exact leaf spring setup and maybe some minor chassis and axle differences. They could sell a 5500 pickup, but there really isn’t any practical reason to carry that much weight in a pickup truck bed. I suspect a 3500 already about maxes out what you can tow with a gooseneck trailer without a CDL, at which point why are you limiting yourself to an overgrown pickup truck anyways?
I remember when my old roommate picked me up in his newish F350. I thought something was broken with the suspension the ride was so bad.
Oh, they do and are.
Or a low weekly payment of $400 for the next 12 years…
That would be less than $5,000 a year so less than $60,000 in 12 years sign me up the best vehicle loan program ever you pay $90,000 under sticker
Weekly payment. $20,800/yr.
ford just announced and released the platinum 550 for 2027
They do! Ford just came out with the F-550 Platinum edition.
News: The New 2027 Ford F-550 Platinum Is One of the Largest & Most Luxurious Trucks Out There – The Fast Lane Truck
Why commercial license I didn’t need one for a 20 foot E350SD box truck. But they should require if you aren’t using it for commercial use it needs to pass personal transportation laws. If I buy a Semi cab and drive it I think I need additional insurance etc.
Maybe not a commercial license but there should be some type of endorsement needed to be able to drive a giant RV or even renting/using giant ass box trucks.
I figured they didn’t buy them because they don’t fit through a drive thru.
Completely crazy
CDL kicks in at 26,001 pounds GVWR
No, most of these lightish medium duty trucks don’t have air brakes, and are setup to have GVWRs under the threshold for a CDL in the areas they are sold.
That said, you need to watch what you’re towing, as the trucks are technically capable of pulling a load well into CDL territory based on trailer weight alone. Even for light trailers, you have to be careful if you are also loading the truck body.
I used to work as an arborist, and we could only use the ~4500lb 9” wood chippers on the F550s, as the ~5500lb 12” chipper would put the truck over the G licence weight limit in Ontario when the dump box was fully loaded with wood chips. Obviously the truck could tow a much heavier chipper if we wanted, but it wouldn’t be practical, as the goal was to collect as much tree debris as possible in a compact chassis for accessing urban areas.
These should be tested too!
fueleconomy.gov’s Power Search tool is lowkey incredible for discovering the breadth of vehicles that fit any niche you’re trying to find. Manual AWD wagons made circa 2007? The Suzuki SX4 is there among the Subarus. 2024 electric sedans? I had forgotten the Genesis G80 Electrified existed.
I believe most states don’t require a CDL for anything under 30k GVWR (or maybe GCWR?). That should probably be lowered to 20k lbs. And yes, that should include RV, because screw their stupid lobbyists.
Where I am in Indiana it is 26k and think it was the same in Illinois. After that need a Class B or class A
I think it’s pretty universally Class C is up to 26k, along with a 10k trailer. Exceed either, and you need a Class A or B.
*except RV people as eggsalad said* which yes is utterly ridiculous for some of those million dollar motor homes on the road that are the size of a semi.
Nothing frightens me more on the interstate than a giant Prevost motorhome piloted by a 75 year old man with a regular driver license. NOTHING.
Yeah that shit is scary don’t want to be ageist or anything but when some one is up there is grandma/grandpa age when they are backing into things all the time and you are seeing new dents every time you go and visit them and they say oh that has always been there sure grandma (or in my grandma’s case when she was still around blaming my grandpa who at the time had not driven in like 10+ years and was bed ridden hah) so it is really scary when they are driving a literal land yacht (not the 70s cars haha)
I feel lucky that both my grandmothers willingly gave up driving, although I picked up the slack for one of them since I had just gotten my license.
Thankfully, my Oma willingly gave up her license at 93. She gently bumped a cart corral in Stop & Shop and decided that it was time for my Mom & Uncle to be getting her groceries. If only most seniors were so willing.
My one grandma realized her limits without incident. The other one that I ended up driving around got lost going to a doctors appointment and ended up 2 hours away.
How does that work? The tractor is not the heavy it is only the addition of the trailer. So maybe pass the big law for the truck with additional rules if the truck is used for truck stuff.
Maryland is 26,001 pounds
I am confused the quote says ~6500 people killed by heavy and medium duty trucks plus light vans. What are they considering heavy duty there? I know working with semi’s we consider heavy duty the actual semi’s (class 8) and medium duty Classes 4–7 so box trucks, bigger pick ups (like 5500’s/f550’s etc) so if they are including deaths by semi trucks on there I mean yes a car getting hit by a semi never ends well for the car.
That is an odd statement. I think they are talking about HDPUV’s (8,500 to 14,000 GVWR) but they might be including Class 8s
It is a bit confusing when people talk about a “heavy duty” truck and it turns out they are talking about a Class 2B
Yeah it is. I work for a one of the big semi manufactures and I still get confused by it because some people in our world will call something like a 4500/5500 a light duty truck when it really is a medium duty while light duty would be 3500 and smaller. So yeah these guy saying heavy duty to me that means a class 7 or 8 not a f350 or ram 3500 haha
It’s because these trucks are branded as HD/Heavy Duty/Super Duty to the general public, even though they’re not really in the “proper” heavy duty class.
As you may have guess from the response below I also work in that field. For us anything 14K to 26K is medium duty and above 26K is heavy duty.
Of course there are no real solid definitions as each regulator has a different GVWR. For EPA anything over 10,000 is HD while CARB says the limit is 14,000 lbs. Then they split heavy duty between light-heavy, medium-heavy, and heavy-heavy
I never saw this coming. Probably because I’m behind the wheel of one of these, and I ran it over a few miles back
In all seriousness, good. These things are crazy, and I see them every day where I live. I drive a small VW, so they probably don’t see me, but that’s the problem. There are a few at the Walmart that I walk past that could in no way see me if I were walking in front of them. How do they see kids?
Mirrors
My 1997 K3500 doesn’t have airbags. All other GMT400s do, but mine is in that weight category where they’re not required, and GM was just like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. There’s a cubby insert where the passenger bag would go and an empty cover where the steering wheel bag would go.
It also has cab lights, and cab lights are awesome.
Do you have a “we die like men” sticker on it because of it, like the guy at work with an earlier C1500?
There are 40,000 fatalities from auto crashes annually in the US vs about 7000 for auto-pedestrian. As such, I’m a little more concerned about what these 8,000 pound pickups do to the occupants of the other vehicles they strike. It doesn’t matter what the IIHS frontal impact test shows for your 4,000 pound crossover: that test is only relevant for vehicles of the same mass or less. The results go all the way out the window when you are hit by something like a 3500HD.
Crash avoidance testing, huh? That’ll be fun to watch. I’d like to see a 3500 Cummins dodge a moose in that Scandinavian test.
Funny thing is they are trying to implement a bunch of ADAS equipment in semi trucks where I work most the time when they are testing AEB (emergency braking) the trucks just slam into the soft car/pedestrian target who would have thought a 26k lbs truck cannot stop on a dime hah
AEB has been a thing in semi trucks for years. Mandatory in the EU since 2015.
Side note – The death toll in the Christmas Market attack in Germany back in 2016 was much lower than it could have been because the truck used at AEB. The truck stopped even though the attacker had the accelerator fully down.
Some examples.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2oKhOglx0E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ridS396W2BY
Oh yeah I know it is a technology they have had just mentioning we test it and it is funny because yeah trucks don’t stop on a dime hah. With the attacks used with truck I do wonder if AEB/ADAS could have stopped that? As there are trucks equipped with switches to be able to turn it off. Guess it would depend if it is mandatory to always be on or not.
My concerns with making it mandatory and always have to be working is those damn sensors and repairs can be expensive, sure for a fleet of vehicles that is what ever they should have the money to fix it but for owner ops or even our regular consumer cars would be really annoying if my car cannot move because a cheaply built sensor broke.
AED will be mandatory in 2028 but almost all our new truck have it today. I’m sure not having it must effect insurance rates.
I remember setting up the tooling for AED years ago when we first started offering it. (We also learned we had to close the doors on the dynos because if someone walked by in front of the truck it would slam on the brakes and the truck would jump of the rollers.). Fun times!
I don’t have a lot of sympathy for owner / operators that can’t afford to maintain a truck. The US Owner / Operator association has been a thorn in the side of the industry for years arguing against everything from electronic logs to speed limiters.
We do need a total overhaul on how truckers are paid though. They should be getting paid an hourly wage for every hour on the clock, driving or not.
Yeah the trucking industry for drivers can suck I know some companies have their drivers as actual employees (I know walmart of all places will hire drivers on after a certain amount of time and give them actual benefits)
Walmart is one of the best paying fleets but I believe they require 6 years of clean OTR experience in order to even be considered. AFAIK They do not train drivers.
Yes, some idiotic drivers need to give a wider berth to semis. But truthfully, I’m less worried about their ability to avoid inattentive pedestrians and cars as I am about the inattentive or aggressive semi drivers making a mistake and slamming their massive road trains into cars that did nothing wrong.
IIHS recently increased the bumper height and weight of the buck they used for side impact testing. Caused a lot of cars to suddenly have poor side impact scores as for some of them the B pillar basically tore away from the bottom sill.
(Went from 3,300 lbs to 4,200 lbs)
Going to make it harder for sedan-height vehicles to pass, which could further drive the trend toward crossovers.
But this is the issue with highly-specific standardized testing. I always viewed that side test with a grain of salt. While it’s nice to know how a vehicle would fare getting hit by an Accord-type at 35mph, the last red light runner I saw was a 6,000 pound pickup at 45mph. All bets are off! And I don’t think most buyers realize this when they peak at the IIHS or NTSA rating.
They will just keep increasing the size of the vehicles because the safety test test with the biggest consumer vehicles out there which will all lead us to driving m1a1 abrams haha
It will. The easiest way to pass it to raise the ride height so the bumper of the buck hits the lower sill. Subaru Legacy was rated good while a Camry earned a Poor rating.
That changed happened back in 2022 and the 2026 Camry has a good rating without an obvious increase in ride height.
Reason to hope! I don’t want to give up sedans yet.
TBH, the fact that it took a regionally important town’s worth of people per year to get around to looking into the possibility of being considerate towards other road user’s is a bit concerning.
I mean no offense but this is stupid.
We already know safety ratings are bunk. Yeah a smart car has a 5 star safety rating, which would only be relevant in a world of entirely subcompact cars, as those are the only cars it’s tested against for crash test safety ratings.
Yes one of these trucks hitting a normal car means it’ll obliterate it. Yes a medium duty truck in an accident with another medium duty truck or a heavy duty truck in an accident with another heavy duty truck will probably be less safe than a light duty truck in an accident with a light duty truck due to them lacking airbags and whatnot.
Personally I think registration costs should be based on ground pressure, where all cars have a stock ground pressure based on max GVWR, and for modified cars you could apply for a new ground pressure number if you go with tires that have lower ground pressure
Also gas taxes should actually cover wear costs.
‘BUT BEVs DON’T PAY GAS TAXES!’
ICE Cars don’t pay exhaust pollution taxes….
This will likely kill off the Express/Savannah/E-Series vans. That will be a real bummer, though a redesign would be pretty cool. The Transit is underwhelming compared to the E-series.
I don’t think anyone buying an Express or E-series chassis cab thinks they are safe. I know I didn’t.
IIHS holds no legal authority – it is just an industry group that used peer pressure to move the market.
Do they already do Class 2? If not why pass over them and go for Class 3 though of course they should just call it Class 2/3 since in most instances they are the same truck other than spring rates and of course the option of duals on Class 3.
No F-250 on their site.
“Do you ever just go to the EPA’s fuel economy website for fun? No?”
Yes actually. Sometimes a few times a day. It’s literally a guilty pleasure for me.
I have found my people
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
“ah yes I see we have similar neurodivergence!”-Autopians, every single day
I prefer Fuelly. Fun graphical interfaces, the joy of wondering if people are lying about their numbers…
I often wonder about the fudge factory on fuelly.
It could be all over the place. You kinda hope/assume that sample size overcomes the lack of precision.
IF?
Been to FuelEconomy.gov twice today. Also been on CARB’s website and a couple other sites that deal with global emission standards.
One side benefit of that website is it provides an easy way to get a good estimate (within a percent or so) of how thermally efficient the ICE in a PHEV/EREV is by taking the ratio between the MPG and MPGe.
For example the 2024 Prius Prime SE gets 127 MPGe and 52 MPG. This ratio works out to 40.9%. The non SE is rated at 114/48 yielding a ratio of 42%. Toyota claimed 41% TE for this engine in hybrid configuration:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Dynamic_Force_engine#M20A-FXS
Same with the RAV4 Prime, 94/38 yields a ratio of 40% and again Toyota claims 41%:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Dynamic_Force_engine#A25A-FXS
2024 Hyundai Tucson PHEV is even better efficiency wise at 80/35 for a ratio of 44%. Hyundai was less clear, they claimed “up to 50%” for this engine hybrid but it seems they have a bit of work to do to hit that metric. Its also clear the relatively low FE of this vehicle isn’t a problem with the hybrid drivetrain. Maybe poor aerodynamics or tires.
The BMW i3 OTOH got 117/39 yielding a TE of 33%. Not great (especially on premium) but they used a scooter engine as a REX almost as an afterthought so I doubt they put much work into maximizing efficiency into a range extender they figured would rarely be used.
Anyway it’s a fun and free thing to do.
I do as well!
What was the most surprising vehicle you looked up where it was way higher or lower than expected?
Base Mini Cooper, the 1.5L I3T. I was shocked why the fuel cost was so high and then I realized that they ask for premium fuel. I didn’t realize that a base Mini drank premium
Older cars. Those get TERRIBLE mpg compared to new cars, especially when safety and features are considered. This web site is a bucket of cold water on any desire I get to own a “classic”.
I wish the site went back further. Preferably to at least the ’20s
They should also require a CDL to drive, unless they’re registered to a business or someone with an EIN.
It would just become another red state/blue state political pissing contest.
If you’re gonna do a Montana LLC anyway, you might as well have an EIN. Then you can always do apportioned, IRP, etc.
Red staters kill each other while blue staters don’t?
So what’s the down side?
Each staters kill each other all the time. The only difference is the device used.
Really? How do blue staters kill each other?
Drugs. Guns. Poverty. The usual.
Pretty sure that’s red state usual.
It’s everybody’s usual.
Its the American dream.
That’s fair, but at least that free EIN for a few minutes means they’re more serious about using it for business use, plus they get to write off expenses and shit.
I have no problem with people using them for actual truck duty, business use, etc., but they shouldn’t just be used as cars.
Don’t you think if an EIN was required the finance guy wouldn’t just add applying for an EIN to the list of things to sign in the back office?
An EIN doesn’t allow you to write off anything – unless you have a real business.
Like the average cop can tell the difference between this an a regular 250
https://www.jackmaddenford.com/blogs/2928/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Screenshot-2021-08-27-103218.jpg
I’d say the average cop can look at a registration card and notice the difference between it saying F150, F250, F350, F450 …. IF a CDL was required for Class 3 and above it would be enforced the same as today.
Then there are insurance companies. Drive a commercial vehicle without the proper license and your insurance is worthless. That guy pulling his trailer would be paying any damages out of pocket in a world that a CDL was required and he didn’t bother to get one.
That’s if they get pulled over.
And there are so many people driving without insurance right now…
Correct, and the only time a cop is going to check someone’s license, insurance, and registration is if that person is pulled over.
How would you enforce your requirement that only someone with a CDL can drive a Class 3 truck?
If I’m a county or city cop, I probably wouldn’t unless they were doing some serious bad driving. That’s the State Troopers job.
What is the State Troopers job? They certainly don’t stop every commercial truck and check licenses.
It’s just part of their job. I do see DOT at truck stops but joe average isn’t about to raise their own taxes for more of them.
So I underline my point. It’s not really a law if it’s not enforced.
Honestly these should be commercial only vehicles which is why they’ve been historically exempt
That or you have to get specialized training/license to drive one for non-commercial use.
Why stop there? Modern half tons are comically large death missiles as well.
And then we let the untrained owners attach 35-foot long 12,000 pound trailers to them so they can fly amongst us a 80mph.
Agreed, I’ve always wondered why those get a pass.
I’ve always thought that box trucks were inherently unsafe because of how little real estate is in front of them. Looking to be proven right, or wrong and then learn why.
Depends on which chassis cab that box is attached to. Box truck covers anything from an Isuzi NPR to a Freightliner M2.
Trucks don’t kill people. People kill people.
People in giant trucks kill people.
People in Kei trucks OTOH kill (probably) no-one
Something less likely to kill?? BAN IT! this is america the dangerous.
But yet, the Kinder Surprise remains banned here…
Backyard nuclear reactors don’t kill people, people kill people.
Amen brother! I don’t anywhere without my mutated anthrax…for duck hunting!
That giant, unshield fusion reactor in the sky however…
Fred Edison agrees with this statement.
And if the IIHS starts rating these, then it’ll start causing insurance rates for them to potentially rise. Making them more expensive to own.
…alright. go on. Let’s see where this goes…
Indeed. I’d also like to see speeding penalties based on the excess kinetic energy of the vehicle and load.
That is nothing but a good thing.
People here are so cut off from about half the countries jobs and how the place they live and work in gets built and serviced. These trucks are being used heavily by the companies building out the infrastructure and repairing things around you. Raising the costs of doing business is not something you will be so happy about when your repair bill comes in and its high because the guys got a 2k a month truck note you are covering. Or your tax bill jumps even more than usual because the new trucks for the highway crew are up as well as the insurance to own and run them.
If you want to regulate average Joe from owning them, I still don’t agree while RV’s are a thing, but add a license class requirement, don’t raise the prices across the country for every service needed.
I’m strongly in favor of something like nationwide collision insurance requirements tied to weight and acceleration capabilities, with waivers for people with CDLs or similar: price in externalities and give people the choice of how they want to respond (rather than trying to dictate an outcome). People using the giant vehicles for infrastructure and jobs should be protected from this kind of change, but if they’re going to be driving that kind of heavy equipment, they should be trained for it. And if you’re just driving it because you like the style, or because it makes /you/ feel safer to drive a tank, then I’m on board with you paying for the privilege of putting everyone around you at risk. (And no, I’m not exempting EVs either.)
If I’m getting all my wishes in this fantasy scenario, I’d also like the weight cut-offs tied to std dev cut-offs for the rest of the fleet on the roads: if cars all get heavier because they’re all EVs, the target goes up. If things start getting lighter because people start choosing to drive smaller and avoid this expense? Then the targets go down. The risk is relative, the requirement should be too.
Road maintenance funding tied to fees assessed based on combination of GVWR and mileage off your odometer at inspection, while I’m at it (yes, I know some people will cheat, but I’d rather that than some kind of panopticon mileage tracking system).
It seems you’ve really thought this out, and I find myself agreeing with all of it. Send it to congress!
“And no, I’m not exempting EVs either.”
Is there real data that proves non truck EVs ARE more dangerous though? Weight is but one factor.
I’m just thinking physics (F=ma and whatnot). A Model 3 weighs ~30% more than a very similarly sized Corolla. If they’re both travelling the same speed, the Model 3 is capable of conveying that much more violence on whatever happens to supply some unplanned deceleration.
So according to this EV cars are no more dangerous to pedestrians than their gas counterparts despite the additional weight:
https://studyfinds.org/electric-vehicles-no-more-dangerous-than-gas-cars/
It seems the noise makers are to thank. Perhaps they should be used on gas cars as well.
I haven’t yet found real world crash data between EVs and their gas only counterparts though. Most of the concern seems to be extrapolated from collisions between light cars and giant trucks/SUVs.
That seems to just be for pedestrians. So not really applicable.
How is this not applicable? The penchant to crush pedestrians is one of the biggest criticisms of giant trucks and SUVs:
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/14/1212737005/cars-trucks-pedestrian-deaths-increase-crash-data
Because he was talking about car vs car not car vs pedestrian.
Who? Brian specifically mentioned pedestrian injuries as well as other cars:
That last bit is what I think is most important. It’s usually not the truck drivers themselves who are dying in these wrecks; it’s the people in the other car (or cars). This isn’t entirely surprising to hear. Back in 2023, the IIHS released a study showing that vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends (i.e., pickup trucks, big SUVs, and vans) were “45 percent more likely to cause fatalities in pedestrian crashes than cars and other vehicles with a hood height of 30 inches or less and a sloping profile.”
Modern pickup trucks are notorious for having hugely tall, vertical noses that, in certain situations, can partially or fully obscure shorter people and children from the driver’s view, which is obviously a safety concern. The least that these trucks can have are sensors or cameras to ensure the driver is well-informed of their surroundings. Many of them already do, but it’s important to hold carmakers accountable through proper testing.
Insurance covers injury to pedestrians and cyclists as well as other motor vehicles.
Thanks for the study; I wasn’t really thinking “car vs pedestrian” above (when dealing with orders-of-magnitude differences in mass, ~30% increases probably don’t alter the outcome all that much), but it is interesting data nonetheless. Maybe my insurance requirement rubric needs a separate set of criteria for low-speed/pedestrian risk, like frontal area/hood height/etc, with similar discounts/waivers for mitigations like the noisemakers.
Crash data between EVs and gas-only counterparts would be very applicable, but I haven’t gone looking. Since a lot of existing data commingles increased front area with increased mass, and we can see from this article that changes in the striking area can have a big impact on outcomes, it seems tricky to disentangle those two factors.
I’d also be fine with noisemakers on ICEs, as long as we all agree that whistletips don’t count.
I’m sure the brotherhood of muscle will be only too happy to straighten their pipes in the name of safety.
Somehow a lot of real work gets done by guys driving GMC Savanas while the boss drives one of these monster trucks.
(I work for a company that builds a lot of infrastructure. Yes, we have some of these to do things like tow inspection boats. But we have more F150s.)
Didn’t know they grew a lot of cherries out in PA.
So waive or heavily discount the added expenses for businesses who install undefeatable speed limiters, cameras and other electronic sensors that record court admissible, insurance risk, and employer actionable evidence.
Problem solved.
State Farm Killed the Bro-Dozer Star. (To the tune of TV Killed the Radio Star)
In my mind and in my car
They can’t back up or go too far
Good.
Very good
Exceptionally good.
Doubleplus Good.
One of my favorite crank ideas is to ban these from school zones.
One of my favorite crank ideas is to ban them completely for non-commercial use
Hey, even better.
The only problem with this is that many of these are leased by fake businesses in the first place because there is a tax break for leasing extra heavy vehicles.
And require retroactive speed limiters of 55mph on them. And front radar that will automatically cut fuel if following closer than 4 seconds behind the vehicle in front.
Don’t stop I’m so close
Some smaller streets have signs that say no trucks over 4 tons, for example. These trucks are obviously over 4 tons GVWR
Don’t threaten me with a good time