I’m in a hyperbolic mood this morning so bear with me. If I had my druthers, the future of American cars would feature a lot more hybrid minivans. My druthers, like consistent performance from Astros middle relievers, is something I’ve learned to not expect. If there’s any consolation, the giant three-row hybrids are coming.
Honda totally biffed it when it came to electric cars in the US, and is holding on only because it also has a bunch of hybrids. Unfortunately, the pursuit of EVs meant that the company underinvested in this tech. Now, to fix that, a new plant is probably coming and it’s going to be building the one car type Americans can’t get enough of these days.
Hybrids and EVs are growing in popularity in Europe, with Chinese brands rapidly expanding. Tesla, though, feels like it’s being left behind. With higher gas prices you’d assume this means brands like Smart and Mini could flourish, but that doesn’t quite seem to be happening.
Do you like guitars? I think I maybe like guitars. I know for a fact John Mayer loves guitars, and he’s now got a new limited run of guitars with Land Rover. Guitars!
Honda Reportedly Betting $2.5 Billion On Ohio Plant To Build XL Hybrids
As far as cursed captions go, the one that accompanies the above from Honda is a tragic tale of hubris and poor timing: “Honda Progress in Establishment of EV Hub in Ohio will Lead to EV Production in North America.” This photo was posted not long before Honda then announced it was going from building a bunch of EVs in North America to building exactly none of them. Shortly after that sad announcement, Honda then posted its first annual loss ever.
The company invested so heavily in electric cars that it missed the boat on the kind of larger hybrids that people want. Unlike Kia, Hyundai, Mazda, Lexus, sometimes Ford, and Toyota, Honda doesn’t have a hybrid larger than the CR-V. As I wrote last year, there’s basically nothing I can do to convince someone looking for a car to not buy a Grand Highlander Hybrid, although the introduction of the Kia Telluride Hybrid at least gives another alternative.
According to Nikkei Asia, Honda is in talks to spend $2.5 billion building a new facility in Ohio with the capacity to make 250,000 vehicles a year. What might those vehicles be?
While the investment decision remains subject to negotiations over state subsidies, and some uncertainty remains, the mooted new plant in North America would mark Honda’s first on the continent in about 20 years.
The new plant would produce large hybrids, including SUVs more than 5 meters long. Toyota Motor and South Korea’s Hyundai Motor are expanding their large-hybrid lineups, and Honda aims to counter with SUVs that combine strong driving performance with high fuel efficiency.
Yup, a big ol’ hybrid! A Honda Pilot XL, if you will.
While my proclivities lean minivan, this isn’t terrible news for the environment. I know there’s a large contingent that’s upset over carmakers canceling their plans for big three-row EVs, but the market just isn’t there given the range and cost, otherwise everyone would be driving the Hyundai Ioniq 9 and Cadillac Vistiq.
Just look at the fuel economy differences between Honda’s current three-row offering and the Toyota Grand Highlander and older Highlander:
Even if Honda could only match what Toyota is doing with the Hybrid Max, that’s a big increase. If you look at the older, non-hybrid Highlander (before there was a Grand Highlander) it only got 20 MPG combined. While a family stepping up from a non-hybrid Highlander to a Grand Highlander is increasing their physical footprint, their fuel consumption drops dramatically.
High Fuel Prices Are Driving More Europeans To EVs And Hybrids
Europe’s car market has been mediocre over the last few years, though August saw a 5.3% increase in sales that were largely either hybrid (36.6%), electric (21.7%), or plug-in hybrid (10%). Diesel and ICE cars made up less than a third of total sales. In the biggest markets, battery-electric cars were up by 40-70% year-over year.
While Europe was always heading in the direction of more EVs, the recent energy disruptions due to the wars in Iran and Ukraine has definitely kick-started adoption. The latest data from the European car industry shows that these sales aren’t all equally distributed.
Tesla, which is seeing an improvement this year after a few quarters of decline, was up 4%, but that’s a lot lower than Chery, the SAIC brands, BYD, and the Geeely Group brands, all of which outsold Tesla in August. I think the lack of hybrids is probably the biggest factor holding brands like Tesla back in Europe, especially as displeasure over his antics seems to be fading.
For all the focus on EVs from Chinese-owned brands, vehicles like the PHEV Jaecoo 7 are out here setting sales records.
Outsourcing To China Isn’t Working For BMW And Mini
I think Mercedes the person and Mercedes-Benz the car company would both be pleased if the new Smart ended up being a big performer, but there’s been a fundamental flaw in the logic behind German carmakers teaming up with Chinese production to introduce small, cheap electric cars to the market.
As Manager Magazin points out, the thought process behind both the Smart EV and Mini EV hasn’t quite held up to reality:
The demand for small, affordable electric cars is actually high, especially in Europe. Because initial attempts to produce them in Germany , France , and Great Britain proved unprofitable given local wages and electricity prices, Smart and Mini turned to China early on. Nicolas Peter (64) , now chairman of the BMW supervisory board, traveled to the Far East in 2019, before Källenius finalized the Smart project with Geely, for the groundbreaking ceremony of a joint venture with Great Wall Motor. Both Källenius and Peter wanted to use China as a cost-effective export hub for their small electric cars to Europe.
But the idea doesn’t work. The EU’s punitive tariffs, introduced at the end of 2024, completely destroyed any calculations. Importing electric cars produced in China to Europe is subject to duties of sometimes more than 30 percent. Smart and Mini see these high fees as the cause of their financial woes. Internally, they say it destroys any business case.
Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time.
Check Out John Mayer’s Sweet Land Rover Guitars
I have a theory that white people can’t resist electric guitar music, which has been proven scientifically by John Mayer. Everyone, of course, loves Land Rovers. Combine the two and you get this limited run from Mayer and Land Rover of special Defender-inspired guitars.
“Teaming up with Defender to offer the Silver Sky guitar in their legendary 4×4 colors is a dream come true. I’ve always chosen colorways based on objects and materials that inspire me in the world, and as a collector and lover of Defenders, this collaboration is the perfect crossover between two great passions of mine.”
If you’ve got, like, $2-3K you can get one yourself.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
It’s the 2015 Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony for Stevie Ray Vaughn & Double Trouble featuring no less than Jimmie Vaughan, Doyle Bramhall, Gary Clark Jr., and, hey, it’s John Mayer.
The Big Question
How many large three-row hybrid SUVs do you currently own or plan to own?
Top photo: Toyota
TBQ: Funnily enough, just got a 2018 Highlander Hybrid 2 weeks ago. Boy, she’s big (and I would have also preferred a minivan) but better on gas, easier for the kids to get in/out of, and less liable to grenade itself than the Hyundai it replaced.
Honestly, a great car so far. Comfy as hell, crushes a hardware store run, and the tailgate glass even opens independently (I swooned).
The separate tailgate glass is so under appreciated, wish more hatches/SUVs had it.
On the old Cayenne I had it was especially great for camping because you didn’t have to open the beepy power tailgate to get something out when everyone is trying to sleep.
I looked at the previous gen highlander hybrids before getting a 2020. I didn’t realize the back glass opened separately, that’s nice. I was hesitant since the gas mileage isn’t as good, but I was ok with having the beefier drivetrain with the V6 since I do some light towing. The main thing was I couldn’t find a good 2020+ Highlander hybrid in my price range.
In the end I found a 2020 with some cosmetic damage that I got for a song and was able to diy most of the repairs for cheap.
Nicely done! That probably means you have CarPlay/Android Auto too, whereas I’m stuck with… Entune. Until I inevitably replace the head unit.
Yes, I managed to get Android Auto, although that was almost an incredibly annoying boondoggle of its own. I don’t remember the exact details, but we were not initially able to connect because android auto relied on an app that Toyota replaced and is no longer available. Many of the online complaints ended with a recommendation to get an aftermarket head unit.
Fortunately, with some digging my wife found a way to download the correct, updated software onto a USB drive then load it directly onto the factory head unit and it’s worked flawlessly ever since.
Weirdly, with a quick Google today I can’t find the issue, but it was definitely something about the Toyota app.
Zero. We have a large 3-row V8 powered SUV and an electric CUV. The SUV is 18 years old, owes us nothing, and does all the grunt work of hauling trailers and moving junk. No need to change it up. With the EV as our main daily driver along with my sports car, there’s no need for a hybrid anything.
TBQ: I own zero hybrid SUVs.
We do have our “trusty” 2018 Odyssey. I do wish it was a hybrid, and I do wish it could tow more than 3000lbs. (The newer versions can haul 3500lbs, but it’s still a bit weak.)
If someone makes a proper 3-row hybrid SUV, with good enough towing (for me: 5000lbs) and sliding doors, I would trade in the minivan for this.
To me (at the moment), it’s all about the sliding doors…
TBQ currently Zero, but maybe a handful. My wife hated the way the Grand Highlander drove but loved the way her Pilot Trailsport does. That EPA Estimated fuel economy is laughable. She’s averaging 16mpg mixed city/highway driving. The best I have eeked out of it was 19.9 mpg. The Pilot may get replaced with a Sequoia in a couple of years and those are all Hybrid.
I worked on the Pilot/Pilot TS when I was at Honda and like the way it looks, but the mileage is atrocious. In the end, I don’t care enough that I worked on some parts under the hood to buy the Pilot over the hybrid Highlander I got, especially since my plan is to keep it 10+ years.
My original plan was to get a Grand Highlander Hybrid Max, but we didn’t make it 1/4 mile down the road before that plan was axed. Somewhat annoying since I can lease the GH through work for a few hundred less than the Pilot. The Pilot does drive better and the J35 is such a nice engine to wring out.
If I needed 5k towing I would probably take the Pilot over the GH Hybrid max, though likely not the Trailsport. The Hybrid Max system is weird, complex, and doesn’t even get that great of gas mileage – comparable to the standard Pilot for highway at least. I’d prefer the reliability of the V6 in that instance.
Since I only tow about 1000lbs fully loaded for now, 3500lb capacity is plenty, and IMO the standard 2.5l hybrid system with the planetary gearset is more reliable than even a V6 with a torque converter auto, plus we get 30-34 mpg depending on driving conditions. It gets as good of gas mileage as my Mazda3.
Zero. If I were to need a third row, a van is the more practical form factor (though I don’t foresee a situation in which I would need/want to own a 3-row). If I had a third row, it would likely just stay folded/removed for more cargo room.
We had a 3 row non hybrid years ago and used the third row for girl scout stuff but really people with 1-2 kids do not need seating for 7-8 but since when has needs ever been better at selling cars then wants.
TBQ: Depends on whether the kids decide to produce some grandkids.
An AWD minivan might be a viable substitute, though.
Not in the market for a 3 row anything, but if we were I’d hold out for the erev Santa Fe
https://www.theautopian.com/hyundai-is-about-to-sell-the-one-electric-car-thats-perfect-for-america/
TBQ : 0
I have owned 2 minivans in the past, they are the superior package as a people mover. If I had to have a 3 row vehicle though, it would likely be a 3 row SUV because there are so many more options than for minivans, especially in the PHEV/EV space.
The market loves self-fulfilling prophecies.
I own 0 and plan on that in the future, three rows are not needed in my life and they just hog up useful cargo space. I think like a lot of car features (looking at you giant pickups) perception of being needed “someday” drives more purchases than actual realistic needs.
There is no universe in which I would ever buy a 3-row hybrid SUV. I need three rows of seats about as much as I need a palimony lawsuit.
None of the vehicles being discussed are *SUVs* to start with, they are large CUVs. None of them are BoF, none of them have low range in their transfer cases (if they have one at all). Zero off-road ability. They are just pointless lifted minivans. If you need seating for more than five, just buy a damned minivan and stop pretending you are cool. You are not cool, you are just another dude or duddette driving a modern-day Family Truckster, just like Clark Griswold. And it’s just as ugly.
Toyota does at least make actual hybrid SUVs. The Sequoia even manages a whopping 22mpg combined with a mere $71K starting price (plus inevitable added dealer greed/bullshit). Fun!
Well said!
TBF my wife’s Pilot Trailsport has better approach angles and only 0.3″ less ground clearance than all of the Sequoias other than the TRD Pro. That pilot has an eLSD Rear diff too
It’s still a minivan with delusions of grandeur. Give an Odyssey a lift kit and an e-diff and it’s the same thing. You aren’t going very far offroad without breaking something expensive.
Lifted vans are also very cool.
Not to me.
Fair lol. I’ve always been a fan of Delicas and the like. Ironically, most of the “adventurous” things I’ve done haven’t been done in trucks and SUVS, but rather 4WD vans.
There’s a lifted AWD Sienna hanging around town that looks like it’s being used as you’d hope a lifted van would be used (based on the battle scars).
There are, of course, lifted vans that have legitimate off-road capability. These “off road” CUVs with no low range and all too often CVTs are not that.
True. I greatly dislike 3-row crossovers, and prefer vans. But if someone wants a lifted van or even (as a grumble) a 3-row crossover, with limited actual off road capability, and it keeps them from buying an actual off-road truck-based thing that gets 15mpg? It’s stupid, but at least it’s a whole lot less stupid than my MIL buying a Bronco.
I think that’s the only silver lining here really. People here think that the buyers of these vehicles would buy a sedan or something if these weren’t available, the reality is half of them would probably do something even more ridiculous, and buy themselves a Tahoe.
One and none.
That’s a great video. Superstars all of em.
John’s always hawking some ‘special’ guitar that won’t make you play as well as he can. That takes talent and woodshedding.
“How many large three-row hybrid SUVs do you currently own or plan to own?”
All of them. If one is good, all is better.
But seriously, if people are going to buy based on size and space, we’re all better off if they hybridize it to get 30mpg rather than 20.
Honda should have done this years ago. The Pilot and Passport are nice vehicles but that 3.5 is high-strung, a bit annoying in a heavy crossover, and a pig.
We have one 3-row hybrid: 2024 Volvo XC90 T8 PHEV. It replaced a 2018 Honda Odyssey, which was so practical but soul sucking to drive.
My wife loves it, and the battery range (~36-40) is more than enough for her daily driving. Incredible seats, smooth ride, great power when you floor it, and real one-pedal driving (that was a must-have, she got used to driving our Tesla Model 3).
I could do with it being like 5% bigger, but it’s great for our family of 5. On road trips, pack light, or put on a roof box.
I’ve wondered if part of the reason minivans have fallen out of favor is they’re all such floppy giant land barges. I know Mazda tried with the 5 but I can’t help but wonder if a slightly smaller van, available with AWD that just felt a tad tighter a la a lot of CUVs would be a reasonable niche.
Man, being a car exec these days sucks. You gotta make decisions based on future wind farts, which is still a pioneer, frontier science. As for the 3-row exploding situation in the US, I think market realities (ie diminishing buying power of the overburdened middle class) will bring this trend to heel. Probably around the time Honda’s plant will be ready. The lemmings decision approach never worked well for the lemmings.
I played Lemmings on the Commodore Amiga in the early 90’s. Great game, highly recommend.
https://www.y8.com/games/html5_lemmings
It’s on phones now. Not bad!
– AND trucks, where nobody can reach the bed or the dipstick..
They fixing that now with digital dipsticks. Look out for the digital loading bed too! Cameras will come first to allow checking how many Costco toilet paper packs you carry.
Just today I was putting an old generator in the bed of my truck, maybe 60-70 lbs. It’s amazing how much harder it is lift something above waste height to reach modern truck beds. Who is doing actual work with truck beds this tall? Maybe that’s why people are paying huge money for ’90s HD trucks?
TBQ: One, CX-90 PHEV. We’re approaching the family stage where the ability to mount 4 car seats is a Thing We Need between our own and all the little cousins. Happily, it’s not a boring driver, gets fantastic mileage (around 55ish mpg with lots of plugging in, our electric bill hasn’t changed from baseline), and most importantly has a phenomenal crash safety rating. Probably won’t get another one as that’s the designated family hauler, and any more additions would require a full size van.
RE:Outsourcing to China isn’t working- no shit Sherlock. The writing was on the wall long before 2019, so frankly I have no sympathy for these corpo clowns. Also, the claim that it’s “unprofitable given local wages” to manufacture in Europe is obviously wrong- the factory labor conversion costs for places like Czechia and Poland are actually cheaper than China, as are places like Mexico or Morocco. VW has no problem making Skoda EVs in Czechia and those are currently killing it, maybe take a leaf out of their book?
This is purely a failure of management, not economics. The only thing that might be a genuine external problem is energy costs, as European energy policy is possibly the biggest economic own-goal of the 2000s.
Stock price and bonus driven decision making is the root of the problem.
We own a Pacifica PHEV that I havent drove in the past month or so due to the gas prices and scheduling issues with kids activities and work, we have to split responsabilities and I dont want to drive a huge van to work. Neither my husband wants to put miles in the van driving to Ohio for work and paying $$$ for gas.
We are driving our EVs full time (Blazer EV/27 Bolt). Our next big road trip is in December so I would probably start driving the van if after Halloween to get it serviced.
TBQ: Zero, hopefully ever. I’m not at a point in my life where I need or want a third row and if I ever am, I’ll also proselytize heavily for a minivan over an SUV.
As far as the Europe sales charts, why doesn’t Toyota sell in Europe / why don’t people buy Toyota’s there? (or Honda for that matter)
I currently own zero 3 row hybrids, but I can’t say I’ll never own one.
I don’t necessarily need the 3rd rows, I never want to carry that many people in my vehicle, but I do like the cargo space a 3 row sized vehicle has.
None for me personally. But my daughter and son-in-law were looking for something larger after kid number 2 arrived, as is required. I tried to convince them that they were fine with what they had, but they seem to want Nana to ride with them more often. Me, evidently, not so much. They were originally looking at the Grand Highlander, Telluride and Palisade, but I sent them a couple of your articles and reviews and they test drove the Carnival Hybrid. They loved it and bought it. So you did at least convince someone to buy something other than a Highlander. Thanks.
My wife has a 3-row 2017 CX-9. We have no kids. I discouraged my wife from buying it, and sure enough we’ve only used the 3rd row like 3 times in 6 years. Now she’s looking at downsizing but at this point I’m encouraging her to keep what she already has.
Oh. Not hybrid. My bad.
I’ve leased 5 versions of the Traverse/Acadia/or Enclave, plus an Envoy XL (GM Employee discount through my FIL and I’m smart enough to never buy one of those vehicles), but now that the 3 kids are grown I don’t plan on ever having a 3 row crossover again. Our Bolt EUV is probably the closest we own to a crossover. We buy sedans if we can.
TBQ: None. I’m going to weld together four of them into a 12-row SUV, with freeway on-ramps for arms and a heart as black as coal.