Something happened during a short panel at the New York Auto Show yesterday that exemplified everything that’s hard about being a carmaker in 2026. The stage for the conversation was set up at one end of the large open atrium near the show floor entrance, and it featured major execs talking about how hard it is to build and sell cars with all this uncertainty. Nearby, someone had organized free hot dogs for journalists, and the line was so long it sort of overwhelmed the panel.
There’s something about the sight of this enormous wave of people hoping to get a cheap product while a CEO talks about global uncertainty that felt just a little too on the nose even for The Morning Dump.
While there were no Chinese automakers on hand directly, there were plenty of automakers who work with them, and it seems like that work is going to bring those automakers a lot closer to our shores. Specifically, GM might help build cars from Wuling in Mexico and Stellantis could manufacture Leapmotors in Canada. This is sort of the dream of Chinese automakers, and it comes at a time when China is able to build a lot faster than we are.
This makes sense both as a reflection of America’s trade policy and as an outcome from whatever the White House is trying to do in the Middle East which, according to one automaker, is dampening sales in the United States.
The US Pulling Out Of Canada Is Going To Be Great For China
A lot of the discussion around President Trump’s trade war is that, by chucking all of its existing trade relationships out the window, it’s encouraging countries to look at China as a more stable trading partner. This was initially thought of as something that’ll happen in places like Europe and South America.
Surely, given our longstanding relationship and importance, the United States didn’t have to worry about Chinese automakers getting too strong of a foothold in either Canada or Mexico. Given how freaked out American carmakers are about China, that would seemingly be bad. That thinking ignores how much America has pissed off Canada and how, by encouraging automakers to stop building cars in either country, the White House has created a difficult situation for those same automakers. Stellantis, in particular, has taken a beating from Canadian lawmakers over shifting production from Canada to the United States.
The solution? Canada has opened its market to Chinese-built cars, in defiance of policymakers in the United States, and now Stellantis reportedly senses an opportunity. According to this Bloomberg report, Stellantis is looking to utilize its Chinese Leapmotor brand to build cars in the same Brampton facility that lost manufacturing to an American one:
The company has since been in discussions with Canadian Industry Minister Melanie Joly over future plans for the plant.
Those talks now include the possibility of building cars in partnership with Leapmotor, a fast-growing Chinese manufacturer. Stellantis bought a 20% stake in Leapmotor in 2023, and a year later the two companies formed a joint venture called Leapmotor International, focused on global production and sale of the electric vehicles.
In a statement, Joly confirmed the government and the company are engaged in discussions. “Any new auto investments will prioritize Canada’s supply chain, including Canadian labor and parts suppliers,” the minister’s office said, without mentioning Leapmotor or any Chinese companies.
That would be quite the turnaround if it happened. One of the knocks against Chinese cars in Canada is that it would kill local jobs. If those local jobs are building Chinese cars, well, maybe Canadian consumers won’t care so much.
Mexico, Too, Might Get Some New Chinese Car Factories After All
It seems hard to remember that far back but, prior to Liberation Day, Mexico had been talked out of hosting more Chinese car manufacturing by the Biden Administration. Even though plenty of Chinese cars are imported to Mexico, production has been mostly limited.
Mexico, though, is now facing down the prospect of losing the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement, which could make its booming carmaking business a little shakier. GM, in particular, builds a lot of cars in Mexico. Can you guess what might happen next?
GM’s partnership with SAIC and Wuling has long exported China-made cars for sale in Mexico under the Chevrolet brand, such as the Capita and Groove crossovers, Tornado minibus and Aveo hatchback. But the venture is looking for a local production base after Mexico hiked tariffs on Chinese imports in January.
The gambit positions GM’s profitable Chinese partnership at the vanguard of a new manufacturing strategy as automakers navigate shifting trade policies following Trump’s tariff regime. GM joins rivals including Ford in leveraging China-built vehicles for international markets, though its production at a Mexico facility represents a novel hybrid approach.
Chinese cars on the southern border. Chinese cars on the northern border. Chinese cars everywhere.
Renault CEO: Chinese Suppliers Are Just Faster
The new Renault Twingo is one of the most interesting new cars on the market to me, and its relatively quick road to production has a somewhat predictable origin story. Renault’s new CEO François Provost spoke to Manager Magazin about how the car came together:
Provost: We need to be innovative and fast enough to leave our Chinese competitors behind. To achieve this, we must be better than them, or at least on par, in everything that matters in the automotive business today: electromobility, intelligent and connected cars, and artificial intelligence.
MM: Chinese manufacturers are considered superior in most of these fields.
They are strong, but so are we. Let me give you an example: We developed the new Twingo in 21 months. Large parts of it were developed in China with Chinese colleagues, using fewer suppliers, shorter decision-making processes, and faster software development. Our next goal is to compete against Chinese manufacturers in Europe with European suppliers. Not just on price, but also on speed.
While there’s certainly a lot to say about how China has some unfair advantages when it comes to production, there’s also a culture and society that’s not quite as hamstrung by permitting and regulation. A friend of mine is opening up coffee shops in China and the United States simultaneously, and he can get a shop in China rented, built, staffed, and opened in about six weeks. His first shop in the United States took six months.
Volvo Says The Conflict With No Obvious End Is Dragging Down Sales In The United States
I’ll probably have a wrap up of sales conditions tomorrow, but the general message is that the market sputtered in March. Why? While many were expecting a bump from tax returns, the uncertainty around fuel prices and the latest Middle East war weighed down sales. At least, that’s what Volvo is saying:
Sales in the Americas region decreased by 28 per cent, totaling 29,651 cars as a result of weak customer sentiment, made worse by the ongoing geopolitical conflict in the Middle East. Deliveries of electrified models decreased by 30 per cent compared to the same period last year, due to the negative impact from the removal of subsidies on fully electric and plug-in hybrid cars.
This is the first time I think I’ve seen a carmaker specifically call out the Middle East conflict as a sales impediment, though it won’t be the last. At the end of this month it’ll be time for automakers to release quarterly earning reports, and I’m guessing we’ll hear a lot about it then.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
It’s the Wu-Tang Clan doing “C.R.E.A.M.” live at the Sydney Opera House.
The Big Question
Which Chinese car would you most like to be able to buy in the United States?
Top photo:
How America Gave Chinese Carmakers The Opening They’ve Been Dreaming Of
This problem and others can be quickly solved with one word: Impeachment.
I don’t know. It was bound to happen. It took these bozos to vastly accelerate it, but could anyone have reversed it? I’m highly skeptical.
I don’t really feel tempted by any of the Chinese cars, TBH.
Can I have an Amphicar and a nap? (Not concurrently, of course.)
Request to remove.
Tbh I just wish Nissan would make a Twingo badge engineered for the US market.
Maybe open up a sub brand at Nissan that is exclusively Renault EVs???
Really? Seems like the Venn diagram of people who can afford a brand-new car and the people who get a tax return (rather than owing) is just two separate circles.
Getting a tax return or not is very much dependent on what W4 deductions you have. You can choose to over-deduct and get a tax return, or under-deduct, and owe taxes (but obviously you can’t do this twice in a row without incurring penalty).
Side-note, am I the only one that keeps having the website break for them? Articles will load and then disappear for me 🙁
I haven’t seen that at all. I’m using Win11 and Opera and it seems fine.
No issue here. Win11 and Edge browser.
Happens to me on my work computer (W11 and Edge) but not my home computer or mobile.
The right answer is probably the small BYD electric.
But the Tank is what I would want.
https://www.gwmanz.com/au/models/suv/tank-300/
“Be more Tank!”
Based on my inaccurate math – About US 60K in Brazil translates to about US 35-40K stateside…yes please!
Ehh nothing from china strikes my fancy (even though I have the Polestar 2) would much rather have the new Jimny here
Mangotollah says we’re winning bigly. We’re winning right??
PS. Xiaomi SU7.
I think he’s claimed we’ve won about 6 or 7 times already. In reality, Russia, China, and Iran are winning.
If you voted for the dummy you owe me gas money.
“I did that!” – mouth breathing stickers trying to insult Joe Biden
They now have some one else’s picture on them on gas pumps around here.
wish I could say the same for my town
The ‘no new wars’ guy who started a war?
Yup
Yes, but look on the bright side; the Trump family are going to get some seriously good real estate deals in Gaza after this…
Kind of surprising to hear that, but not disappointed.
Years ago I read about a poll that was done during the Reagan or Bush Sr. years, asking people who they voted for back in the 1976 (Carter vs Ford) election. By those results, Ford won in a landslide.
I guess what I’m saying is, not only is it going to be difficult for you to collect the money from the Trump voters, it’s going to get harder and harder to get them to self identify themselves as such.
I think you nailed it.
Where we live the signs and flags are no longer flying .
The bumper stickers are no longer on diesel trucks.
There are a few diehard fans still but they are rare now.
One of the fervent Nazis in my neighborhood hasn’t flown his Trump or Kirk flag in over two months. Great. We still remember the collaborators.
On my local social media pages, I still see a lot of support, with people proudly proclaiming “this is exactly what I voted for” when the war and the resulting higher fuel prices are brought up.
That’s like the cat that sprints into a closed sliding glass door and then stands there with a smug “I meant to do that” expression on its face.
But are they real people? Facebook and other social media now use antagonistic AI bots to try to keep people engaged.
This is a good point. Every once in a while, I’ll take a look at a FB profile, they look legit. Most of the ones I see on IG are bots though. They always have like 2 posts and zero followers.
That’s why lots of people drove around filming people houses. When the trials start, they won’t be able to claim they didn’t support him.
And this is what you think a free society member should be doing?
If yo
The world is a competitive place. Prior to the last year I always thought that the United States looked to the future with technology. Now I see a focus on the past. Sure, coal and oil will be used for many years but clearly the future is electric, solar, wind and renewable power. The rest of the world is racing forward while we look back. If we pause or go backward, the rest of the world is going to continue to move ahead and we will become a technological backwater. We will be a land full of people that think they are exceptional but only are when compared with ourselves, not the best in the world. The past is gone, we need to lead into the future if we want to make the US and the world a better place.
The amazing thing to me, and I think future historians, is that Newt Gingrich literally warned about this in his own words in 1995 in his forward to the Toffler’s book “creating a new civilization: politics of the third wave.” He stated, in so many words, that conservatism and liberalism were obsolete ideas and the future would be defined by forward thinking technologists and retreating historical technologists. And he and the Tofflers were right, as you’re describing. The insane thing is Gingrich thought himself at the time in the former camp. And somehow between 1995 and now (maybe it was 9/11, maybe it was electing a black man as president…) it became the Republican Party line to go hard into retreating technologies. On some other timeline it wouldn’t have been this way…
Whatever Newt Gingrich may have written, as speaker of the house, his amoral willingness to hurt the country and demonize liberals to get his way led directly to the intellectual and moral collapse of the GOP. Without Newt Gingrich, there would be no Donald Trump presidency.
I agree! The implication wasn’t that he was moral—let’s be real the CCP that’s being lightly celebrated here isn’t moral. But the intellectual collapse happened later, and I think will be of particular interest when we look back. It’s still too soon now to make sense of the signal through the noise.
Yeah, I’d really rather not be part of a country that is effectively an insecure, lazy 50 something year old going around insulting people and bragging about the glory days back in high school.
The US didn’t look to the future with technology anywhere near as much as a lot of Americans think. Corporate America has always worked by monopolizing a particular piece of technology and then wringing the last drop of profit out of it, sometimes for decades. Think of Malaise Era US cars. Absolutely terrible by any metric because the big three refused to adopt new technology and thought they could continue to carve up the domestic market between themselves.
China looks forward to the next century, US can barely look past the next quarter.
We might as well learn Chinese now; it seems inevitable that they will become the dominant world power.
Small counterpoint: this is literally what people were saying in 1987 about Japan. What indicators suggest this time will be different?
The rate that we’re torching our relationships with our allies. It only makes sense that the rest of the world would look to move away from dealings with the US.
China is the largest economy in the world (20% of GDP) and manufactures 1/3 of the world’s products.
Japan peaked at 18% of GDP and 24% of global manufacturing in 1994.
Today the USA makes up 14.5% of global GDP and 15% of global manufacturing.
Yes, we did that. Had a whole law passed and everything (imperfect but a start). That was in 2023. Amazing how a year can set you back 50
“We will be a land full of people that think they are exceptional but only are when compared with ourselves, not the best in the world. “
We are already there.
Not splitting hairs here Matt.
But America did not piss off Canada. Most Americans with functional brains love Canada. I know I do.
Maybe a sentence correction is in order here?
Insults and lies are what pissed off Canada, Tariffs too.
That was done quite well by the big Orange Turd and his peons…
America voted for him. Actively, or tacitly by failing to show up against him. We are culpable as a country until we fix it.
Until we overhaul the bullshit voting process to a popular vote it will not change much.
The process chosen in the late 1700’s is not a fair representation of the the will of the people…YMMV
Yes. No need or desire to stay attached to a voting system devised to appease the slave states.
The elected representative of the US pissed off Canada.
To say we took it personally would be an understatement.
That being said, I still have a lot of love for individual Americans, I know scores of amazing people who did not sign up for this.
But you’re gonna have to hang out with me up here, cause I’m not going down there any time soon.
Wish I could hang out up there my friend.
Cold snacks are always ready. Well, these days it’s mostly Bubly, but they’re still cold!
Please keep in mind only about 31% of voters actually voted for the orange menace.
I am acutely aware of the US electoral process. Canadians as a whole are pretty aware of US goings on. It’s like keeping tabs on the trap house next door.
Good analogy.
Every country has their share of morons, America is exceptional in electing them.
We have our own idiot up here. Thankfully, we banded together as a country to not elect him.
Am I a fan of all of Carney’s policies? No. But he was absolutely the BEST pick for the current political climate. His broad reaching connections to European allies is paying dividends.
Not to mention that speech. Not aware of anyone else articulating an alternative publicly. That took guts.
There’s a huge difference between “America pissed off Canada” and “most Americans pissed off Canada”.
The indirect result of being mad at a relatively small number of administrators is felt quite widely, and affects many more people than those using their silly words (without actually affecting themselves of course).
Buy Canadian is rampant up here now…enough that brands have tried disguising their products as Canadian only to be exposed and fined rather heavily. It was honestly not that important before. Good luck selling US dairy up here if CUSMA changes.
I’m actually kind of thankful. It forced me to look for locally produced options for a wide range of products, and ended up finding better products made right here. For many of us, this isn’t just a temporary situation. Buying habit have permanently changed.
I’m a Canadian. I worked in the US for a few years. I had children born there. You could not drag me across the border these days. I’m not even part of the group that is being discriminated against and I won’t go. Not until the dance with Fascism is over with and the guilty brought to justice. Then I’ll start considering it.
And my wife, who is less politically motivated than me is even more entrenched.
You can say that only 31% voted for him, but 40% couldn’t be bothered to get off their ass. That’s the same as voting for him.
I voted.
As noted in my prior comment our system was set up in the late 1700s and does not make sense in this age. The popular vote is what should be in place rather than the Electoral College.
Those who do not even make the effort to vote deserve what they end up with.
gotta love how shame has become a national consciousness for multiple generations of Americans
The American century of humiliation is upon us
Hey Matt,
You forgot to mention Tesla sales jumped 1st quarter. After skipping the other two pro-tesla days you just can’t even bring yourself to mention this. Your bias is simply off the charts.
You mean the 1st quarter sales that were up from last year’s dismal numbers, but still missed expectations by 6%, and we’re 42k sales off their pace from 3 years ago? The 1st quarter sales that drove the stock down 3%?
I’m sure they could spend some time on that.
Ah, you beat me by 50 seconds!
I’m not going to get into pricing of stock, Tesla’s never made sense.
Sales are down from the highs yes ,but they are still up. In a VERY tough ev market. You can’t pretend the landscape hasn’t changed in 3 years, thats disingenuous at best. There’s constant mention of anything that could be slightly seen as negative with Tesla, and theres a pattern that emerges when anything decent happens with them.
I won’t argue with the anti-musk crowd all day, it will never end. I am just pointing out what I have noticed.
edit: They are scrapping cars and building bots it seems like in the future, so the sales will continue to drop regardless I would assume.
Their sales trajectory vs. competitors is the most telling piece, and it isn’t looking good for Tesla.
The first mover advantage and brand loyalty are dwindling. My bet is that either the Korean brands or GM will be the first to overtake Tesla in EV sales.
I don’t really care 1 way or another about Teslas success, I will never own one, and never have even considered it. I don’t think they will be selling cars in 10 years at all. If they do, it would be some sort of automated thing (self driving coming soon!).
I just think Matt hates them/or maybe just Musk, and I like to poke at it.
Yes, the landscape has changed in the last 3 years, which is exactly why it’s significant that they missed expectations and continue to be down from their peak.
The question has always been if Tesla can hold its dominance as mainstream manufacturers join the market. Their stock prices have that baked in. And they’re not reclaiming market share, even as the market itself stagnates. If your ONLY market is only occupying 7-8% of the market, you need to win it.
The robots require a lot of investment, and the cars are supposed to fund it. That only works if the
stocksstonks goes up. I don’t see the robots making it further than the underground tunnels or the solar tiles. Neat ideas on a napkin, tough to make it in the real world.They should probably get back to their successes, and bring some new models to market.
They still missed targets and the numbers are still abysmal. Maybe Matt is showing his pro-Tesla bias by failing to report on this.
I’m not sure how not mentioning a company reflects bias. There was no mention of Ford, probably because of anti-Ford bias?
Like I said in the post, I’m doing a sales roundup tomorrow and I’ll surely mention Tesla. All the automakers haven’t reported yet, so it didn’t make sense yet.
Pfft. Typical Elon hater. Waiting till you have the full picture to talk about it.
Sounds like a good plan, I’ll see you tomorrow, ha!
Since when is incomplete information grounds for not talking about something on the internet? 😛
It’s a holiday in Canada tomorrow, so no Canadians will be reading your roundup. People only log in here from work. 😉
Eventually the Chinese cars will begin to trickle in… Once that happens, the dam will burst. I know that we aren’t directly importing them, but if these Chinese firms end up opening plants in Mexico and Canada, the USA can’t be too far behind. Once the first manufacturer opens a plant stateside, it’s game over for the domestics.
Chinese Built Buick’s are here. I am not enamored with those enough to overlook the human rights issues that seem to be pretty solidly ignored in China.
Maruti Jimny copy is interesting to consider, but I would just as much prefer an actual Jimny if we could reduce some of the NHTSA driving nanny requirements and get it over here for a lot less expense.
Because the US is a bastion of amazing human rights? Or we’re just cool with overlooking those issues in order to look at US vehicles?
“I saw someone throw a bottle out their window the other day, so I cancelled my trash pickup service and now I just dump all my garbage in the street.”
No, we aren’t a bastion of amazing human rights but we’re doing better than freaking China (although the current administration is probably interested in changing that).
Did you forget that the current administration just murdered over 100 people on the high seas with no charges and no evidence? Did you forget that they aided and abetted the ethnic cleansing of half a million people in Gaza? That they threatened to invade three countries and started a war just now? How exactly is the US doing better than China?
Better PR.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Better!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! -Breathes- AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
I mean you are obviously fishing for a response, so here goes.
while I am sure you can quote some form of human rights issue that you feel strongly about, but you should lead with that. Instead you seem compelled to suggest that we are as bad or worse than Chinese labor policies?
We just started a(nother) shooting war in the Middle East. When was the last time China started a shooting war? We threaten to invade at least three countries. China only threatened to invade one. We kidnapped a head of state and his wife. When did China do the same? We murdered over 100 people on the high seas with no evidence, no charges and no trials. When did China ever do something like that?
so it is more about different politics and less about how the American workers human rights are vs China for you?
Let me clarify then, my issue is not currently about war politics, though I do kind of have an issue with China’s stance on Russia and the whole invasion of a sovereign country under the guise of killing Nazi’s.
My issue is how little they pay the average worker and how they treat them with regard to freedoms.
China’s stance on the Ukraine war is that they are happy to sell products to both sides.
It’s not a matter of ‘different politics’. It is universally agreed that starting a war is bad. Russia invading Ukraine is bad. USA invading Iran is bad. And China’s labor rights is roughly on a par with most of the Southern states in the US which actively discourage unions.
So, we’re going from “human rights issues” to “labor policies”? If there’s a better example of “moving the goalposts”, I’ve yet to see it.
The US has ~2 million incarcerated in state and federal prisons, according the most recent numbers I could find that seem authoritative and accurate. All 2 million are, thanks to a terrible loophole in the 13th amendment, subject to forced labor on prison farms and in prison industries.
The US needs to acknowledge the existence of 2 million slaves today when wagging its finger at other countries for human rights violations.
Different focus, but the people allowed to survive in prisons in China don’t get paid a thing for the work they do, and I am not comparing prison labor to automotive assembly labor, they are different things. We also do not imprison people for talking bad about the current regime.
Prison labor in China is a widespread, state-sanctioned system known as Laogai (reform through labor), which forces detainees—including political prisoners, ethnic minorities, and general convicts—to produce goods for both domestic and international markets under harsh conditions.
Just FYI, Chinese auto workers make more than Mexican auto workers.
Which Chinese goods is produced by prison labor now? There has been allegations for years but nothing has ever been proven.
Whereas it is proven that the USA uses prison labor on a large commercial scale:
AP investigation finds US prison labor is tied to some of the world’s most popular food brands | The Associated Press
And a legal green card holder Mahmoud Khalil, was deported for protesting against Israel. And over 600 Americans have lost their jobs for saying the wrong things about the Charlie Kirk murder:
More than 600 people were fired or punished for posting about Charlie Kirk’s death. They want justice | Charlie Kirk shooting | The Guardian
I’m not denying the human rights issues in China, but just like has been mentioned here, don’t blame all Americans for the cheeto, don’t blame all Chinese businesses for abuses. I’ve done a lot of business in China and seen very well run operations taking good care of their employees and having ethical practises that I have found lacking over here. Plenty of entrepreneurs are trying to make a go over there too and shouldn’t all be tarred with the same brush. Prejudice is also a human rights abuse.
They did it to themselves. I feel no pity for them.
There have been enough conversations about production in Canada, that opening the market to Chinese cars is really just the first step. If Chinese automakers bring affordable cars, Canadians WILL buy. Well… maybe not the Texas of the north folks in Alberta. Hyundai did well coming in at a time when most Canadians were still hurting from a period of very high interest rates and rising costs due to fuel shortages. The Pony didn’t sell in the US, but they sold a lot up here. The Korean brands are very popular up here now. I assume the same will be true for Chinese brands that come over. I’ll definitely look.
And it’s all so frustratingly stupid. The existing domestic automakers could have maintained the course they started. It would have been expensive, but long term, there’s massive benefit to selling electric vehicles. They all submitted to the lure of short term revenue at the expense of potential global market size. I really wanted at least one automaker to say “no thanks, that’s not aligned with our long term plans.” And none did. They all deserve to be third rate automakers of the future.
Oh yeah, the Korean brands are CRAZY popular up here. You can’t throw a hockey puck without denting five Kias and a Hyundai. Hell, there’s two in my driveway and the neighbour’s daughter has an Ioniq5.
Hmm, I thought that errant hockey pucks struck arena organists in the head not vehicles.
I guess things must’ve changed since 1977.
Do not ask for whom the puck flies. It flies for thee.
I always see a zillion last-gen Lancers in Canada, which makes me so happy as a Lancer owner. The temptation to head north of the border to browse the junkyards for Lancer spares is high. (Also, poutine and good people. Hard to argue with this logic.)
This is your resource to determine if it’s worth the trip. You can search yard inventory at all their locations.
Kenny U-Pull
Sweet. Thanks!
They timed it so well too. At least looking back it almost looks like it was done on purpose. ‘84 was still kinda tough. People still had 16-19% rates on mortgages. China getting the door kicked open couldn’t have happened at a better time. And now with the war, it’s like trump is sending his own gold engraved invitations for China to sell more to Canada.
We gave China the opportunity by killing off the cheap cars, a price point China is famous for.
Look at that. Someone looked through the trees to the forest beyond.
In 1995 the cheapest car for sale in the USA was the Metro. It cost the median US household 12.8 weeks of income.
In 2024 the cheapest car of sale in the USA was the Nissan Versa. It cost the median US household 10.0 weeks of income.
In 2024 12.8 weeks of median income bought a Nissan Sentra. A midsize car for the price of a 1995 subcompact.
“Which Chinese car would you most like to be able to buy in the United States?”
Exact replicas of European 1950-80s exotics for the price of a Changli.
Various chinese factories are stamping out reproduction steel bodies for the FJ40 Landcruiser, Datsun 240z, Land Rover Defender, AE86 Corolla, and classic Minis.
Ah but I want a turnkey car.
This ain’t about the Middle East… quite simply… Volvo doesn’t make vehicles people want and/or they are not priced appropriately. It’s just that.
EX: Had to get a new ride a few months back. It needed to tote ebikes, kayaks, big canoes, go down gravel roads, handle moderate snow, some mud, etc. Got down to two choices ’25 Subaru Outback Wilderness -v- ’25 Volvo V60 Cross Country. The decision wasn’t even close. I got the OBW for $40,500 – complete – out the door (with a dealer installed OEM trailer hitch). Good luck getting Volvo to hit that. The V60 was going to be at least $7,000-8,000 more than the OBW.
Even if priced the same, the OBW seemed like a much better off-roader/4WD vehicle and a more reliable ride overall. For the extra money… the Volvo was absolutely not worth it. I loved how easy it’d be to load boats on the roof with a nice Thule rack… but that was really the only advantage of the V60.
Honestly, I’m not sure what customer the V60 is supposed to serve any more.
Yes, the premium brand Volvo sells vehicles at a higher price point than the mass market brand Subaru.
All right, that’s twice in 2 minutes crossing over each other.
*backs away slowly*
That is built on the assumption that Volvo is a “premium” brand. I don’t consider it premium. And it certainly didn’t look or function like a “premium” ride. I guess we just disagree on what “premium” means.
I might agree that Volvo doesn’t sit as high as BMW or Lexus but from a vehicle design, features and capability standpoint it is certainly riding much higher than Subaru. I’ve owned two Volvos and driven several Subarus but haven’t owned these.
Today, much of what makes something luxury is the quality of materials and features rather than build quality and the like. In this area I don’t think it’s even close. Volvo designs very nice interiors with some of the most comfortable seats around. Subaru goes for a more rugged, outdoorsy and, yes, more mainstream shopper.
I’ll agree that Volvo is losing the script on the American consumer though. I dropped them due to their reliance on Google for all software and the buggy code running everything in the Chinese-built XC40 I owned. They have also priced themselves above what they really offer and have always tried to position themselves in the same market as BMW. But they always fall short and continue to fall under Geely ownership.
But they do look nice and are thoughtfully designed.
My brother in law has an older Outback R with the H6. I got my son a similary aged XC70 with the non-turbo I6.
It’s not even close, even between 10+ year old cars. The volvo drives better in every measurable way. It’s quieter, smoother, the interior appointments are much nicer and of better quality. The subaru feels tinny and the interior materials are thin and brittle.
I also bought my wife a 19 Volvo S90. Subaru is NOWHERE in the same league, not even a little bit close.
Having said that if I were actually going to go offroad (and not just on some silly gravel roads to get to a bike path or something), I’d buy a Subaru because I’d feel less bad about shitting it up or banging it off of trees or rocks. However, I would not take an outback on street tires properly offroad anyway. They’re cute, but you’re still going to get stuck unless you’re just driving on pretty easy trails.
A Honda will give a superior value proposition to a BMW, too, but that’s not the entire story.
I needed to haul kayaks, so I was looking between a Ford Explorer and a Bugatti Chiron. The Ford was way more capable at this job for WAYYY less money! Therefore, between these two vehicles, clearly, the Explorer is the superior product.
Now you’re just being silly/snarky.
A V60 and an OBW are relatively similar cars trying to reach a similar audience, ie: relatively wealthy people who need a light, AWD, wagon -vs- a large crossover/SUV/van.
Your comparison is just… well… dumb. I mean, I get snarky, but your snark is not terribly impressive -v- the obvious point I’m trying to make. I make the case that Volvo is not a premium brand anymore. Not sure if they know WHAT they are.
And you know what? The sales of the V60 -v- almost *anything* similar demonstrate that problem. The dealer I was talking to said they had to keep one on the lot… but they sell next to none. Here are some numbers:
2025 Outback sales: 157,716 units
2025 V60 sales: 3,630 units
And the 2026 V60 is being discontinued. That “premium” brand thing is really working out for them. How about we compare them to an ACTUAL premium brand, like Lexus:
Volvo: sold 121,607 vehicles in 2025
Lexus: sold 370,260 vehicles in 2025
So… yeah if you actually compare them and not be a snark… it’s pretty clear Volvo is sucking. And then there are the big quality issues:
https://www.autoblog.com/news/how-volvo-went-from-the-most-reliable-cars-to-near-the-bottom
I love the profile of the V60. It’s a good looking car. To me, it’s a much nicer place to be than the average Subaru. There’s also nothing else on the market that directly competes.
Even if it were the same price, I’d struggle to justify it as a fair competitor on the Outback on utility.
Aside from the price delta, it’s somewhat impractical as a wagon. The rear-end tapers so far down that it really compromises the opening and rear space.
So, with the new Outback redesigned as very much a “bigger” Forester: I have to question why one would pick the Outback over the Forester unless you need slightly more space.
Of course I was! Just adding to the snark of the person I replied to! Maybe send your reply to them?
JG Wentworth!?! Now I know how you’re swinging that Bugatti.
IT’S MY MONEY AND I WANT IT NOW
/90s
No, I went with the Ford, because… kayaks. They ARE gold plated kayaks though! 😛 CALL 877-CASH-NOW!
It wasn’t about the money. I could afford either car. The cars were similar enough in capabilities and features that they were the two last choices. There was no way, IMO, that a V60 was high enough in “premium-ness” to justify the $10,000 sticker price difference. And you know what? The interior of the Subaru was in many ways was nicer than that weird driftwood like interior that Volvo seemingly had on every V60 available,
So, a year ago, people wanted the same vehicles 28% more? But, sure, it ain’t about the Middle East.
I can see most of that sale decline due to their noncompetitive product line. Volvos suck now. The sales figure represent that much more than Middle East issues. What… you’re going to argue that Volvo has been making a, high quality, competitive product of late? Really?
Please make the case for why *any* Volvo product should be at the top of a purchaser’s list in *any* category. There is always a better option to a Volvo product right now.
Which is my point.
Let me spell it out for you:
Making mediocre vehicles at inflated prices is generally not a gateway to increased sales, and Volvo’s decline is understandable given the company they’ve become. The Middle East excuse is just BS. Their sales drop is because of their product line.
You’re still arguing that they had vehicles people wanted last year, but this year… with the only major difference being what’s going on with the Middle East… they suddenly don’t want those same vehicles.
Nobody here is saying they have made high quality competitive products in recent history. This is something you’re inventing in your head. Just that, apparently, last year, people wanted them 28% more than they do this year for… some reason.
If their terrible product line was the same terrible product line last year as it is this year, then why, suddenly this year, the massive sales decline? What changed (since, clearly, you don’t think anything changed in the Middle East) between last year and this year that would explain such a steep decline? It clearly isn’t quality, since they’ve been poor quality for years.
Volvo dealers have the advantage of always having a car on the lot. Or in the service bay.
Just double-barrel shotguns to the dick, every day, for fun.
This gave me a good laugh, thanks.
If money wasn’t an object, a BYD Yangwang U7 would do nicely. Set aside some cash for tires. Translating its specs onto pavement would definitely destroy a few sets rapidly.
The Dongfang M-Hero 917 with the gun motifs would sell here too. That’s pure ‘Murica as interpreted by a Chinese manufacturer. Make a decontented $76k version and print money.
It’s really hard to understate how much the current American administration has ‘pissed off’ former allies.
One small step for automakers, one giant Leapmotor for the world.
It’s soooo much more than that, though. It’s opening the eyes of the rest of the world to the fact that we just can’t be trusted anymore. Not as allies, not as trading partners, not as a stabilizing force in the world. If 40ish percent of our population gets the wrong person elected (again), then a hundred years of good will can evaporate overnight.
This won’t be fixed by a “blue wave” in 2026. It won’t be fixed if sanity prevails in 2028 either. The isolationists who wanted to uncouple us from the global economy have won, and managed to do it in less time than anyone thought possible. If the current administration had actually been elected by China to upend the US’s global domination of world trade they couldn’t have done a better job.
Perfect response, no notes.
Extremely well said. I was just listing to an interview with a professor who has been studying this sort of thing for decades, he said essentially the same thing. It’s crazy that in 14 months we’ve managed to completely destroy our standing in the world.
You say that like it didn’t happen.
We already know Russia interfered in the 2016 election, courtesy of the Mueller Report (RIP). I’d be more surprised if China didn’t have a hand in 2024 too.
Not that we’ll probably ever find out. Even the lesser evils that will hopefully be elected next time won’t have the spine to hold their colleagues accountable for their crimes.
Prove me wrong, politicians.
Mercedes? You reading the comments today? The one above is pure COTD fuel.
We’re spending a lot of time these days trying to teach our 5 year old that if she bosses friends around and isn’t nice to them, they might not want to play with her anymore, but she doesn’t like to listen and wants to just do whatever she wants, whenever she wants. Seems like a lot of parallels to the current administration…
USA: 1. Aim at your own pud. 2. Fire.
So tired of all the winning…
If the US legacy automakers were pro-active and pursued mass producing and marketing EV technology that they helped develop in the 1990s, and had they focused on sedans and small cars that were both affordable and aerodynamically efficient to get good range on small battery packs instead of forcing the SUV/CUV/truck zeitgeist onto the consumers, then this opening for the Chinese wouldn’t even exist.
This is why there should be no taxpayer-funded bailouts for them when the time comes. I don’t consent to paying for it. Do you?
I live in an area that would’ve been completely and totally economically devastated if the Big 3 had gone under, so yes, I do support it as a method of last resort. Ideally it won’t come to that and they’ll make good decisions and wise partnerships, but I’d rather bail them out than see tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people lose their jobs.
It would have been cheaper to pay everyone who would have lost their jobs almost enough to retire on… or at least enough to have a significant passive income source.
I sincerely doubt that.
According to some quick google searches, the government paid almost $50 billion to bail out GM. Also according to google, GM had roughly 250,000 employees at the time. Double that count to 500,000 to account for suppliers. That’s $100,000 per employee. Regardless of if you agree with Toecutter or not that the government should or shouldn’t have bailed out GM, he certainly makes a valid point.
Most of that money was recovered.
This x1000
The “executives” who brought the auto industry down shouldn’t get SHIT
(except maybe prison time)
Any assistance/funding should go to the engineers and the people doing the manufacturing, etc., and the suppliers.
Not even close. Just having the federal government take over the Chrysler and GM pension obligations would have cost multiple times more than the $9.3 billion the federal government spent to bail them out.
If GM had failed you would have also seen a bunch of suppliers go bankrupt as well as Ford.
The people affected thus previously and perhaps in the future need to really look at their situation and strongly consider the future and their place in it. It might be high time to figure out a contingency plan, consider some sort of training or other income streams, and start to build towards that and possibly in a different location. Just continuing as is and hoping for another bailout on the back of everyone else (many of which had similar issues but WITHOUT any form of bailout in the past) is no longer acceptable.
How many times should we bail the same people and industry out? Sure as shit nobody is bailing out my close to $30k healthcare premiums this year if I make enough money to actually support my family’s decidely non-extravagant lifestyle and cost of living. And yes, I (and my family) left a struggling industry at a difficult time a decade and a half ago and rebuilt our lives once and am currently in the (so far fairly successful) process of doing it again so yes it can be done.
Plan ahead and don’t just wait for Uncle Daddy’s bailout.
No, particularly not since they’ve spent the 17 years since the last bailout continually downsizing, shedding jobs and closing factories over and over again, despite the bankruptcy “right sizing” them. A failure of the Big Three would not be catastrophic to our economy now, if it even really was in 2009. They’re not even the entire US auto industry, not by a long shot. Toyota builds more here than Stellantis
The US auto industry is very interconnected. If GM was to go bankrupt and liquidate a lot of their suppliers would also go bankrupt. Those same suppliers send parts to Toyota, Honda, Nissan, VW….. No parts / no cars.
It also wasn’t just GM and Chrysler that got bailed out last time around.
Ford got $15.9 billion, BMW $6.2 billion, Toyota $4.6 billion …. the list goes on.
Perhaps just bail out the suppliers instead? You can’t just keep feeding the rotting head that seems to be in business only to gorge itself with immediacy and zero long term or contingency discipline. If it won’t learn, it needs to feel the consequences. The employees have seen this SEVERAL times now, time to wake up. At some point one must learn the lesson, be it employees or stockholders. If a main automaker goes under, but the suppliers are supported, then much of that volume will eventually redistribute to other makers who in the aggregate will support those same suppliers or cause alternate ones to grow while some shrink or fail. There is nothing built today that can’t effectively be substituted/supplied by another maker.
Suppliers will just right size themselves, if GM is 30% of your business, cut 30% of your workforce and capacity, fixed
At any rate, with GM sourcing so much from China and Korea and having a market share down near 17%, I don’t think they’re anywhere near as systemically important to the wider supply chain as they once were. Things are more fragmented now than they were in even the 2000s, and GM seems to have almost intentionally shrunken themselves even further than pure market forces would have dictated
Besides, other companies took loans that were 100% repaid with interest, over $11 billion of GM’s bailout was “free” money that they did not have to repay, and didn’t
Making auto parts is a very equipment and capital intensive business with profit margins under 2%. Lose 30% of your business and you go bankrupt. You can cut headcount by 30% but that isn’t going to get rid of the loans your are paying on all of the equipment and building sitting idle. It isn’t going to pay for all the materials and WIP that you have in process (at took loans to buy) that will never be sold.
The total cost of the entire 2009 auto bailout was $9.3 billion with money handed out to dozens of companies. The money given to GM was either structured as loans and repaid or as an investment with stock in return. (“New” GM was 61% owned by the federal government) The US government did sell their GM stock early and at a loss for political reasons.
In 2009 the cost of bailing out GM and Chrysler was less than the cost of the federal government taking over their pension obligations (as required by federal law – pensions are federally guaranteed)
That said – neither GM or Ford is in any danger of going under today. I doubt Stellantis USA would get a bailout today considering the European ownership.
Yes, yes, yes. But we have a government that can be purchased by Big Money. Those forces felt their business model was threatened and did something about it.
Mazda 6e (EZ-6 sedan)
It’s a lovely sedan with all electric drive and a 4-banger ICE/generator happy meal. For those who have to have an SUV, the Mazda EZ-60.
Practical vehicles that would be a grand-slam home-run if they were available in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_6e
^^^ This ^^^
But… ‘Merica just be lovin’ it’s big ass trucks. Let’s give it a few years of $4+ gas and $5+ diesel and see what’s on sale then. I’m betting many Mazda CX-6e/EZ-60 types will be here.