Home » A Lithium Motorcycle Battery Has Turned My Basket Case Triumph Into A Reliable Bike

A Lithium Motorcycle Battery Has Turned My Basket Case Triumph Into A Reliable Bike

Lithtop

Six months ago I decided to start my motorcycle season by splurging on a part. After a year of struggling with nonstop dead batteries I threw a lithium battery into a basket case 1999 Triumph Tiger that I bought from Facebook. Six months later, this bike has become so reliable that I want to put lithium batteries in everything.

I should start by explaining the nightmare that this motorcycle has been until this year. Back in March 2021, I picked up a Triumph Tiger for the princely sum of $1,300. A Tiger wasn’t a dream bike or even a bucket list bike. Really, I bought it because of the engine nestled in the frame. Triumph’s three-cylinder engines create a symphony that is completely unlike the common twins and fours out there. The 885cc triple in my Tiger is connected to an aftermarket pipe, and it’s hard to describe the sound. It’s raspy with plenty of burbles and pops. Here, listen to another Tiger to hear what I’m talking about.

While I bought it for the sound, I quickly found myself in love. For years, friends had been telling me to buy an adventure motorcycle and now I see why. It’s comfortable, it has plenty of power, you sit nice and high, and it’s a motorcycle that isn’t afraid to get dirty. Sure, Gold Wings are more comfortable, dirt bikes off-road better, and sport bikes handle better. But an ADV like a Tiger is a good mix of traits to have.

What was not so good was the bike’s electrical system. When I bought it, the seller told me that it just needed a battery. That’s fine; it wouldn’t be the first time that I’ve had to buy a new battery for a new-to-me machine. Once I got home I went straight to Walmart and bought the first $50 battery that fit. This battery was too small for the Triumph, but I’ve owned 30-some motorcycles before this one, and every time I needed a new battery I was able to get away with the cheap, too small one. And by cheap, I mean the real cheap ones that require you to fill with electrolyte.

This time was different. I installed the battery to the Triumph and to my surprise it wouldn’t start.

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The lights came on, but the engine wouldn’t even turn over when I hit the start button. It may have started a few times on this battery, but most times I had to break out my jump pack, which always did the job without a problem.

This confused me, because in my experience until then, a weak or too-small battery would at least slowly turn the engine over. This thing couldn’t even do that. But after a jump, it always ran great. There were some clues to what was going on, like a flickering odometer, dim headlights, and a horn that always sounded too quiet. It seemed like the bike wasn’t getting enough juice.

I eventually bought the correct battery, and this seemed to solve my issues. It started without a jump pack tether and I concluded that being a cheapskate is what caused all of my annoyances.

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Then I let the bike sit for a couple of weeks, and once again, it stopped starting. Just like with the last battery, the starter wouldn’t even try to engage. Upon hitting the start button I heard a slight click, then nothing.

Even more annoyed than before, I cracked open the Haynes manual that came with the bike and got to work. Perhaps I should have known what I was getting into. After all, the Haynes manual had a pencil taped to it and sheets and sheets of electrical drawings from the original owner were inside.

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His handwriting was so bad that I couldn’t make out what he was trying to do, but he was clearly trying to do some rewiring. Whether the rewiring was to solve a problem or for a modification I still haven’t found out. My best guess is that the original owner modified the headlights so that the high beams are the low beams.

The start of my troubleshooting had me tracing the starting system for things that could cause the motorcycle not to start. There’s a neutral position switch, which I confirmed consistently works. There’s a side stand switch, which I confirmed works. And there’s a clutch switch, which didn’t work reliably. As a test, I bypassed it. That made no difference in if the bike started or not.

Next, I tested the battery, which came back at 12.3 volts. It should have more juice than that, but 12.3 is still enough to at least turn the engine over. Yet, I got nothing. From there, I tested the motorcycle’s adorable alternator.

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Really, this thing has a small alternator! It puts out about 13.3 volts at idle and goes up to 14. More on that in a bit.

Stumped, I reached out to a local mechanic. He said that the issue likely had to do with the ECU but asked to see the motorcycle instead of explaining further. I started scouring Triumph forums and found a little quirk about these bikes. As many owners have discovered, while another bike may turn over slower when the battery is not at a full charge, a fuel-injected Triumph may not turn over at all. And that flickering odometer and dim lights? Those are apparently signs of not enough voltage. Another sign of low voltage is a check engine light after the engine fails to turn over.

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It gets worse from there. A number of owners have discovered voltage losses from the battery to the starting system. And as a result, there are online threads out there of guys shortening the cables and wiring throughout their Triumphs in an effort to get just a little more voltage. You could even buy kits to improve the wiring harness.

And on newer Triumphs, there’s actually a voltage cutoff. That voltage isn’t published, and some believe it to be arbitrary. But one thing’s for sure: if the battery doesn’t exceed the cutoff, it won’t even try to start. Some dealerships allegedly recommended charging batteries nightly or a “city tune” that lowers the starting voltage threshold.

So, what I’ve gathered is that the electrical system is a mess in these, and there’s no surprise that the alternator gets only 13.3 volts to the battery. The solution appears to be to go through the bike, refresh the wiring, and maybe do the mods that others have done. And I should do that, but going through the wiring of a 23-year-old British bike really isn’t anywhere near the top of my to-do list.

Instead, I’ve opted to bring in some extra firepower. Back in March, I bought a Noco NLP14 lithium battery for about $120.

Noco

This is the equivalent of a YTX14-BS lead acid battery but at a fraction of the weight. And lithium battery chemistry is a lot different than lead acid. While a lead acid battery drops voltage with its state of charge, lithium batteries hold strong until their charge gets low. This sounds perfect for a bike with a temper about its voltage.

Here’s a quick comparison. A Yuasa YTX14-BS is the recommended battery for my bike. This is a 12Ah battery that weighs in at 10 pounds and features 200 cold-cranking amps of starting power. This is the battery that worked fine, unless I didn’t ride for a couple of weeks or so.

The Noco NLP14 lithium has a 4Ah capacity, but Noco claims you’ll get the equivalent of a 13Ah lead acid battery out of it. It comes in at 2.5 pounds, but annoyingly, Noco doesn’t list CCA. Instead, the company claims a starting current of 500 Amps peak.

It’s been a night and day difference in the Triumph. Since then, my lights have stayed bright, my horn is loud, and most importantly, it always starts. My Triumph starts when the temperature is in the teens. My Triumph starts when the temperature is above 100. Heck, the Triumph will even start after it has sat for well over a month. And the check engine light, which was on for low voltage, turned off. None of the other batteries could achieve this.

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And because we’re talking about lithium power, when I started the bike after over a month of dormancy, it turned over like I rode it yesterday. I’m now no longer afraid to take my Tiger on long journeys and over these six months I haven’t needed to use the jump pack a single time.

Now that it seems like my woes are solved, I can finally get to the other things that I need to fix on this bike. It desperately needs a mudguard and the turn signals have seen far better days.

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I’d also like to convert the bulbs behind the instrument panel to LED. Maybe, I can even find some good LEDs for the headlights, too.

The little Triumph could also use a new seat, as the original is beginning to crack faster than I can seal the cracks up.

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When I originally wrote about this battery purchase, some had concerns about having a lithium battery under your butt, being charged by a system meant to fill up a lead acid battery. After all, lithium batteries of the past sometimes had a knack for going up in flames.

Noco thought of this, and the battery has its own electronic management system. It prevents the battery from being charged too much, discharged too much, short-circuited, too frozen, too heated and more. This thus far has meant no fiery death and drop-in compatibility with my old bike.

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I’m so impressed with this battery that I’m certain that it’s the best battery that I’ve ever owned. I even love the fit and finish. There’s good attention to detail, which is a bit wild for something that you’re rarely ever going to look at. Noco also provides you with neat spacers so you can fit the battery perfectly into whatever space you need it to fit.

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Now, there is a downside, and it’s that when it comes to charging at home, Noco says that these can be charged only by chargers that have a lithium battery charging function. Thankfully, a charger that can handle lithium batteries is cheap, so it’s a small downside.

This has given me what’s probably a bad idea. Can I power other vehicles with lithium batteries? Sure, I’m probably going to have to wait years before I can buy an affordable lithium battery for my bus. But maybe I could fit these into my kei cars? I mean, my Honda Beat and my Suzuki Every already use what look like lawn tractor batteries. Perhaps before the summer is out you’ll see me test another one of these out on my fleet.

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Either way, I’m really happy with what the Noco has done for this Triumph. Maybe my electrical issues will return again, but for now, I’m finally enjoying this bike after over a year of owning it.

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43 Responses

  1. Interesting…

    I had a 2012 Triumph America for the past 10 years, and it was just like your Tiger here… The stock battery was junk (like your cheapie), and I put a decent AGM battery in it which was better. But it was still like you describe. Leaving it for 3 weeks would leave me with a flat battery that I had to boost to get it running. I finally put a small voltmeter on it so I could monitor the draw while riding, and a charging pigtail so I could charge easier. I’d have gladly dropped a NOCO in there if I’d thought it would help!

    I have a new 2022 Tiger 660 this year, and it has none of these problems (so far). Fingers crossed, but my Amazon shopping cart also has a NOCO battery and a charger in it just in case!

  2. I’m honestly scratching my head on this. If a vehicle (or motorcycle in this case) calls for a specific cranking amp spec, why would anyone risk a low battery with an undersized battery. I was always taught to buy the battery with the most cranking amps the battery area will fit. It’s peace of mind. Peace of mind that can go a long way on weekend rides along windy roads usually away from service areas.
    You article doesn’t give any specs concerning this. What does this triple call for, what you used that didn’t work and what the new lithium unit is at. Is it a larger cranking amp that made it reliable or is it just being lithium?
    Inquiring minds want to know…

    1. I apologize, and thank you for pointing out that I missed those important specs! I added them in.

      As for your question, well, that’s because until now I never had any issue with just throwing whatever battery I had laying around into a car or motorcycle. Sure, my Smart wouldn’t start the one day a year when the temps got below -10 degrees, but that was good enough for me. And most of my motorcycles have been 1980s things that never seemed to care about what batteries I tossed in.

      Yes, that’s silly, and this Brit bike has taught me the error in my ways.

      A YTX14-BS with 200 CCA is what this bike wants to sip on. And that battery does do the job…unless I let it sit for a couple of weeks or so. Funny enough, that battery now resides in my Buell, where it works great, even after a month of sitting.

      As I noted, this bike probably has some electrical gremlins that need to be traced down. I could also shorten the battery cables and upgrade the grounds as recommended by owner communities. But I found this easier than either option.

      1. Thanks for update Chica 🙂 So you went from the speced 200CCA to 500A starting power (…hasn’t anyone standardized this yet?) getting something lighter and longer lasting. That is well worth the $.
        I’m glad it sorted it. I have a 73 CB500 that I bought with an already burnt up wiring harness, so I can appreciate the pain. Electrical issues are the worst!! I ended up building a new harness with fused circuits under the hump of the cafe seat to eliminate the need to troubleshoot inside the headlight. Next to the fuse block are all the electrical essentials. I went with a gel cell battery so I could lay it on its side for dimension constraints. Where there is a will there is a way. When it is ever complete, I will send you pics.

    2. Probably both. Lithiums have higher and flatter voltage curves than lead-acid and less internal resistance (meaning less voltage sag under heavy load). So, even for the same cranking amps a lithium is less likely to drop below the level the electronics will tolerate while it’s cranking, and that’ll stay true down to a pretty deep discharge instead of falling off quickly below 80%.

      Plus, lithiums have a much lower self-discharge so they won’t empty themselves from just sitting there a few months.

  3. I’m happy to hear that battery solved your issues.

    I put lithium batteries (Shorai) in my last two bikes and they were nothing but perfect. I could park the bike for 3 months without a battery tender and it would start like the battery just came off the charger – the only time I ever had to use the special charger (the additional cost of which is a bit of a downside but worth it if you want to significantly reduce the chances of blowing up the battery) was once when I left the key on overnight. A Lithium battery will be the first thing I do to every bike I buy from now on.

  4. So… I actually have one of these batteries that ill be using for a project and something has confused me about it’s literature and this article. the two quotes below cant be both true, either the battery is smart and can be charged by anything (I’ve never met a bike with a “Lithium function” in the charging circuit)

    “Noco says that these can be charged only by chargers that have a lithium battery charging function”

    “Noco thought of this, and the battery has its own electronic management system. It prevents the battery from being charged too much, discharged too much, short-circuited, too frozen, too heated and more”

    So which is it Noco? is your battery smart and can be charged by any old bike or does it need a fancy “lithium mode” something tells me this is just a way to sell more chargers.

    Ive been charging mine with a normal battery charger and I haven’t exploded or burst into flames, but I’d like to know what the reasoning behind the “lithium charge function”

    1. So I’ve seen it explained, charging with a lead acid charger is not recommended because lead acid chargers often have algorithms for desulphation and equalization, two things that a lithium battery doesn’t need. Those chargers are said to send 15+ volts during equalization to a lead acid battery that could kill a lithium battery.

      https://enerdrive.com.au/2017/11/29/can-i-charge-my-lithium-battery-with-a-lead-acid-charger/

      On the other hand, the electrical system of this motorcycle will never send that kind of juice to the battery, and the BMS is programmed to protect the battery from overcharging.

      I’m usually such a cheapskate that normally, I’d disobey the rules. But as a younger adult I used to play with lithium batteries and have witnessed what they could do when things go wrong…so I bought the charger.

      1. Some of the desulfation modes even go a fair bit over 15V. Maybe enough to do a little damage even before the BMS kicks in.

        The lead-acid chargers also tend not to hit quite high enough of a charge voltage to let the BMS top-balance the cells, but that’s not a big deal as long as it gets the extra volts now and then, like once a year. The sharp voltage “knee” at the top end of the charge curve means 14.2 V gets you really close to a full charge, and unlike lead-acid they’re perfectly happy sitting at partial charge.

        I wouldn’t worry too much about the failure mode. Car starter lithiums tend to be LiFePo4 chemistry, which is a bit less energy-dense than NCA or NMC but has a much less dramatic failure mode. I wouldn’t sit there inhaling the fumes if it does fail, but I’d say the same about the hydrogen sulfide from a lead-acid.

      2. I’m still not sure I understand, wouldn’t the battery’s fancy on board BMS keep this from happening?

        “Noco thought of this, and the battery has its own electronic management system. It prevents the battery from being charged too much, discharged too much, short-circuited, too frozen, too heated and more”

        All I’m saying is the battery either has this fancy protection or it doesn’t. Noco says it does so therefore the desulphation and equalization process couldn’t possibly overcharge or overcurrent the battery because the above protection does not allow it.

        don’t get me wrong, as soon as I build a mount this is replacing the mower battery in my car to save space and weight, I’m impressed by the power output of this little thing as well as their jump packs. The main thing I’m trying to do is carve the actual data about this unit from the marketing wank.

        1. It could always just be a liability thing. Like, in practice it’s almost certainly fine to use a lead acid charger, but if your house burns down it’s not Noco’s problem.

          On the other hand, it could be more like what Mercedes already said. The charge protection hardware could be capable of protecting the battery from the constant 13-14V that an alternator puts out, but not from all the things that happen during a lead acid charger’s desulphation and equalization cycles. The alternator and the charger are doing different things, and the battery can handle one but not the other.

        2. The BMS will keep it from happening. Or at least, it’ll cut it off pretty fast after the voltage spikes. So it’s getting hit with a brief spike, then disconnecting and not charging. It might then toggle back on after voltage falls under the cutoff, or it might stay off until the charger stops entirely. Good chance of shortened battery life, not actually charging after a while, or both.

    2. so on old (like 5+ years ago) lithium batteries the electronic management systems weren’t very good. the lithium chargers then had special plugs into the battery that would make it so they could charge individual cells and even out the charges helping to prevent them from exploding. new chargers and batteries are supposed to be able to do that without special plugs. I think the important thing about lithium chargers at this point is they wont overcharge the battery where if you use an old manual charger and leave it on too long it can do that.

      All that said i wont recommend the lithium batteries for any street bike. In particular anything designed before the mid 90s has a much higher likelihood of catastrophic failure due to what is basically an erratic sine wave of charging voltage.

      -full time, predominantly vintage, motorcycle mechanic

  5. “This has given me what’s probably a bad idea. Can I power other vehicles with lithium batteries? Sure, I’m probably going to have to wait years before I can buy an affordable lithium battery for my bus.”

    Mercedes.
    We’ve been over this. Worse still, you’re talking to someone who has to be an expert in batteries. We use damn big banks of them in data centers. I’ve had to design battery rooms and inverter systems.

    Lithium batteries big enough for your bus? Please.
    https://braillebattery.com/collections/trucking/products/f34-group-34-lithium-starting-power-supply-battery
    But for the bus application, lithium is honestly, ridiculous overkill with minimal benefit. What you actually want is an AGM. Which costs less than half as much, only requires you have a good working alternator, and will work with most quality tenders/chargers (just buy C-Tek.)

    1. I’m only half-joking about the bus! 🙂 I keep the bus topped up using a pair of solar panels. But I have to remember to disconnect the batteries or else *something* will kill both of them faster than the solar panels can charge them. Apparently RTS buses built by Nova Bus have a battery drain problem that fleet operators deal with by disconnecting batteries or by using jump packs when they die.

      1. Well then, AGM’s are perfect for the application. And apparently I need to make a road trip out there to fix your electrical. Hell, fixing bad electrical in a bus is practically a vacation compared to everything else.
        I mean, holy shit, actual fucking room to work! I can do drape runs! I don’t have to try and cram a 3″ bundle into a 1″ space! Sign me the fuck up.

        Plus it’s probably something really stupid like a shutdown solenoid.

      1. Honest answer is cost and capability.
        The CTEK MUS 4.3 is what I use for my Porsche. It can handle wet, flooded, CA/CA, AGM, MF, and gel, has programs for small, normal, cold weather, and reconditioning, it has full float, tests batteries, does up to 14.7V, can do complete reconditioning of all types, comes with pigtail hardware so you can just plug in, can resurrect nearly any battery, has accessories like a cigarette lighter adapter (as in: you plug into the cigarette lighter and charge the battery,) and can operate in temperatures from -4F to 122F depending on battery. It can even handle Optima and Odyssey’s obnoxious AGMs. (They are NOTORIOUSLY difficult to charge.) Oh, and it’s a 4.3A unit that can operate on batteries as low as 2.0V. Beefy.

        “Wow, that’s a whole lot of features! It must be expensive as fuck!” Well it ain’t cheap at first blush – $150 MSRP! $170 if you want the “Polar” which is rated for -40C operation.
        You can get it on Amazon for $100. Normal price.
        BTW, the units sold by Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini at the dealership? Those are all CTEK MUS.

        So surely Deltran/Battery Tender has something to compete, right?
        Yeah, uh. They actually don’t. They have a 5 amp charger but it doesn’t do any sort of testing or thorough reconditioning, it refuses to attempt anything below 4V, and feedback consists of a red light and a green light.
        And because it’s a a Deltran(R) Battery Tender(R) brand unit? $125.

        Now don’t get me wrong, if all I care about is charging batteries or maintaining a battery, there’s better options than the CTEK MUS 4.3 too, and lots cheaper at that. Battery Tender(R) is some of them!
        But here’s the thing – you simply cannot get the breadth of function the MUS gives you in any competing offering worth considering. And unless you’re a shop with all the various tools, or you only ever care about charging batteries? The CTEK is exactly what you need for at home home, because it fulfills multiple functions and can charge nearly any type of battery you have (lawnmower, motorcycle, Porsche, RV, bus, it does them all.)

        1. Goddammit. I *need* a charger for *my* 911. MY four bikes (including all a Triumph) are all on Battery Tenders nd they seem to be fine. Thanks for the great explanation. I guess.

        2. Cool.

          How about NOCO? I’ve been real interested in their Genius 2×2 for the ability to handle two batteries at once, though only 2 amps (they like to say 4 amps, but it’s really 4 amps total, 2 amps each). Says it can recover all the way down to 1V which seems too good.

          1. I’ve been pretty happy with the single-output NOCO, anyways. Flooded, AGM, and LFP profiles, water resistant and generally reasonably durable, doesn’t seem to get too warm despite being small for the output. No problems at -2F or +100F ambient. It’s smart enough to detect the battery before it starts going, but also has an override mode to try to recover from a deep discharge (or a BMS cutoff for LFP).

            Can’t say how it compares head to head with the CTEK, but either should do better than the dumb converter Battery Tender sells.

  6. European micro lighters have been using them for years. Get good ones for Rotax 912s which weigh 1kg and, like you say always start. Not much more expensive than lead acid now (+20%)….

  7. For those wondering, lithium batteries in car sizes run about $1000. A few guys in the Viper groups use them to drop weight for racing (they are about 70% lighter than a lead battery).

    1. Yup, unless you are really after weight (or space) savings, lithium just ain’t worth it. Even on most motorcycles, I’d suggest against a lithium battery. FortNine said it better than I did on YouTube.

    2. Yea they’re not cheap. One night I randomly looked up lithium car batteries. Not with the intention of buying one, I just figured I have a lithium jump pack might as well see what a battery costs. The cheapest I saw was $700. Thankfully I wasn’t in the market because holy crap.

  8. I also got tired of regulars motorcycle batties’ crappiness this year and dug the tool tray out from under the saddle on my 1977 BMW (so “new” it doesn’t have a kick start like the really old ones) and got space for a medium sized regular car battery. It cost half of the motorcycle battery and has double the amps, so really it’s 4 times as cheap!
    BMW aren’t the lightest bikes anyway, I could just lose a couple of pounds myself if it came to onboard weight. And since I have kids I’m never really driving dangerously fast anyway.
    Not one faulty cold start yet, so has really improved my joy with the bike. Still carry jumper cables in the side panniers, just in case, or if I need to help other riders.

  9. As much as I like the lithium starter batteries, the “PbEq” rating drives me nuts. Yes, it’ll crank like the PbEq rating even at a lower state of charge than a lead-acid will, but if you’ve got a parasitic draw like a car alarm it’ll go dead like a 4Ah lead-acid, not like a 14Ah.

  10. Love the Motorcycle articles. I have a 2002 BMW 1150gs with a little over 100k. So I understand the need to wrench on these bikes. I am glad to get an update on the battery. Keep on wrenching. Keep on trying Lithium in other vehicles.

  11. I am slightly surprised the electrical system on modern Triumph is flaky and poorly designed. My recollection is that the reboot in the 90s specifically used Denso electrical components to avoid Prince of Darkness syndrome. I guess the traditional English electrical weakness came back.
    I’m fortunate because my old BMW will start as long as the battery holds a decent charge, although long idle periods killed a battery

  12. I put a lithium battery in my VN2000 a number of years ago, and it worked great for a year, Then it started having more and more trouble cranking… so I recycled it and got an AGM. It still had a lot of trouble cranking. Then I took the starter off, took it apart, and cleaned up all of the spots where it would need to be cleaned for a decent ground. Started great after that. So, I wasted a very expensive battery because I was stupid. Go me.

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  13. I could be mistaken but I thought a voltage output above 13v at idle was fine? And aren’t there wires going straight from the battery/ground to the starter? I don’t dispute that a British electronic system could use a bit of help, I’m just curious if I’m missing something-as a rider of a 20 year old dual sport with questionable PO wire connector choices, I’m sure the knowledge will come in handy.

    It seems putting in a new battery is step one of diagnosing damn near any problem on modern European bikes. That pesky ECU has its fingers in everything. Oddly, my 2017 v Strom and old Harley would fire instantly after sitting a few weeks, but my DRZ has required a jump several times. I’ve thought about jumping to lithium as that heavy battery is located high and far back, but will at least wait till I get the kickstarter installed.

    1. 13V is… OK. If you’re going on infrequent short rides and the alternator->battery wires are on the thin side, it’s probably going to struggle to top off a lead-acid battery enough to keep it healthy. If you do longer rides or keep the battery on a charger between, it’s good enough.

  14. Okay to start I’m no expert and probably the least qualified to comment but hey what can I say I like Vodka. But it seems to my simple mind Mercedes bought an English Motorbike with electric issues. Bought an undersized battery and tried starting it with headlights and other electric stuff on. Let it sit for weeks only to have issues. Then bought a new battery that was fully capable and made some needed repairs and modifications and now no problems. These are the things that make you go hmmmmm.

  15. In case anyone was, like me, curious as to what The Autopian’s sole sponsor might think about Mercedes plugging a competitor…

    ” ‘Does OPTIMA® make a motorcycle battery?’ We’ve heard that question more times than we care to remember and we wish we had a battery to fit every application. Unfortunately, we don’t (yet). We do make a Digital 400 battery charger and maintainer that is ideal for all 12-volt motorcycle, ATV and PWC battery applications.” – Optima’s website.

    But just to be on the safe side, Mercedes, you might want to pick up that Digital 400 charger.

    1. Right? WTF is it with British vehicle manufacturers that they cannot figure out how to wire a vehicle? Just when you think they have it sussed, you read a story like this.

  16. So glad it is working out for you! I mean, you could switch out a smart 12V or two. Lithiums in 12V sizes are usually below 15lbs compared to 25lbs and above for gel and lead.

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