Owners of certain Hyundai and Kia products from the 2010s have really had a cursed existence since the pandemic started. It’s not every Hyundai or Kia owner who has to worry, of course, as many of those cars have merely been subjected to the ongoing minor recalls and Technical Service Bulletins that are part of the modern car ownership experience. I’m talking about the people in the Venn Diagram between easily pilfered cars and, now, potentially fiery ones.
Ok, we talked about Biden so we probably gotta talk about Trump’s UAW visit. Let’s try to do it in a way that keeps our comments civil and focused. If we can do that I shall reward you with an update from the Tesla Autopilot Lawsuit and some good news for people who like square SUVs.
Kia And Hyundai Recall Over 3 Million Cars
I got the above text from my dad yesterday and, for once, I could make sense of what he was saying (My dad is an inscrutable texter. Recent messages include: “Bring catrol pil” and “Jim Belushi at Local Roots” followed photo of my dad with Jim Belushi at what I assumed was a grocery store and definitely is not a grocery store). He was curious if his 170k+ mile Kia Soul+ was on the list for the most recent major Hyundai-Kia recall.
I have not, actually, gotten the VIN from my father, so I can’t say for sure that his car is impacted, but I’ve got a good feeling that it is. Here’s how hilarious it is to be an owner of a Kia Soul (or old Elantra).
For about the last 18 months my dad has been worried that some TikTok teen with a screwdriver and a USB drive was going to steal his car. My dad did what the police and common sense advised, and parked his car inside. Bad news dad, courtesy of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration:
Hyundai Motor America and Kia America have issued “park outside” recalls for more than 3.3 million vehicles due to the risk of fire.
Until these recalled vehicles have been repaired, the manufacturers say the safest place to park them is outside and away from homes and other structures. Fires can occur whether the vehicle is parked and turned off or while driving.
Great. Let’s look at the list of cars:
Hyundai’s safety recall (NHTSA ID: 23V-651000) applies to the following vehicles and model years: 2012-2015 Accent, 2012-2015 Azera, 2011-2015 Elantra, 2013-2015 Elantra Coupe, 2014-2015 Equus, 2011-2015 Genesis Coupe, 2013-2015 Santa Fe, 2013 Santa Fe Sport, 2011-2015 Sonata HEV, 2010-2013 Tucson, 2015 Tucson Fuel Cell, 2012-2015 Veloster and 2010-2012 Veracruz.
[…]
Kia’s safety recall (NHTSA ID: 23V-652000) applies to the following vehicles and model years: 2014-2016 Cadenza, 2011-2013 Forte/Forte Koup, 2015-2017 K900, 2010-2015 Optima, 2011-2013 Optima Hybrid, 2011-2017 Rio, 2010 Rondo, 2011-2014 Sorento, 2011-2013 Soul and 2010-2013 Sportage.
Oh man, some absolute bangers in there. Kia Forte Koup! 2015 Hyundai Tuscon Fuel Cell! A freaking 2010 Kia Rondo!
The issue seems to stem from the ABS system used by Kia and Hyundai across a wide, random assortment of vehicles. The system can potentially leak brake fluid, causing a short and then a fire. No one has been killed, but numerous fires have been reported.
So what’s my dad to do? He can either take his Kia, which he bought new, and park it inside and potentially risk it catching on fire and burning his house down. Or he can park it outside and wait for some teen to steal it.
Donald Trump Sort Of Talks To The UAW
I’m going to talk about the content of what former President Donald Trump had to say about the ongoing UAW strike, then the setting, and a little bit about the politics of it. As best as anyone can tell, Trump is still the frontrunner for the Republican nomination, though I’m sure the Chris Christiementum is coming any day now (Touches earpiece: I’m hearing now that Christiementum is not a thing and will never be a thing.)
What he says about the strikes is important because, in theory, it sets the tone for the debate. And, on its face, there’s a logic to it (This version of the speech I found has the perfect YouTube thumbnail because if you hate Donald Trump or love Donald Trump the word “unbelievable” is enough to get you to click).
Here’s the point that Trump is making, via The Detroit News:
Trump, a former president who’s seeking to challenge current Democratic President Joe Biden next year, made the comments during a speech at Drake Enterprises, a parts supplier in Clinton Township. Amid a historic strike by the United Auto Workers against Ford, General Motors and Stellantis, Trump said: “Your current negotiations don’t mean as much as you think.”
Trump argued that regardless of the outcome of the strike, the bigger threat to employees was the shift to electric cars and trucks, which he described as a “hit job” on Michigan and Detroit.
[…]
He told workers to reach out to Shawn Fain, president of the UAW, and tell him if the union backs Trump, Fain could take a vacation and they would better off than they ever were. Trump later characterized the transition from gas engines to electric vehicles as “a transition to hell,” a phrase he has repeated on the campaign trail this year.
“The auto industry is being assassinated,” Trump said. “If you want to buy an electric car, that’s absolutely fine. I’m all for it. But we should not be forcing consumers to buy electric vehicles they don’t want to buy.”
Those are the coherent parts, at least. I’m not sure that the transition to electric cars is a transition “to hell,” but it is somewhat hellacious for carmakers. If it turns out that people don’t want electric cars and demand softens, it’s possible that we’ve radically altered our manufacturing prematurely. The counter-argument, of course, is that it was always going to be chicken-and-egg and, even if American consumers aren’t going to immediately jump into EVs, we’ve effectively secured battery production for all sorts of markets outside of America and can better serve our own market. Still, it’s not an entirely unreasonable view.
That’s what he said. Let’s look at the actual theatrics and setting of this. In theory, this was an address for the UAW, but the UAW officially wanted nothing to do with it and it happened at a non-unionized supplier facility.
Still, the UAW has a lot of people in places like Ohio, that Trump won twice, and has plenty of members that do like Donald Trump. According to this NBC News report on the speech, not a lot of them showed up:
“[H]ardly any striking workers were on hand.
“There are a few strikers here, yes,” said Brian Pannebecker, a former local autoworker who organizes an Auto Workers for Trump Facebook page and helped shore up attendees for the event. “I don’t know where they’re at. But there are several — a handful.”
One of the striking UAW members on hand, Scott Malefant, concurred.
“I haven’t seen anybody yet,” Malefant, wearing a Make America Great Again hat, said as he waited for Trump to arrive. “I’m sure there might be a few.”
A handful!
The UAW’s current leadership has made it clear that they don’t like Trump and don’t want him to be president, though they’re doing him the favor of thus far not endorsing President Biden.
The Tesla Autopilot Trial Starts Today
The details of the crash that led to the trial today in San Francisco over Tesla’s “Autopilot” system are pretty terrible. A Tesla Model 3 driving on a Los Angeles highway suddenly leaves said highway, hits a tree, and catches on fire. The driver dies, one passenger is seriously injured, and another, a child, is disemboweled. It’s pretty bad.
Tesla is expected to argue that it’s unclear if Autopilot was engaged and that the driver had consumed alcohol prior to the accident. The attorneys representing Lee will likely argue that Autopilot is defective and that Telsa knew it.
Reuters has a good explanation of why this is so important:
Tesla has been testing and rolling out its Autopilot and more advanced Full Self-Driving (FSD) system, which Chief Executive Elon Musk has touted as crucial to his company’s future but which has drawn regulatory and legal scrutiny.
Tesla won a bellwether trial in Los Angeles in April with a strategy of saying that it tells drivers that its technology requires human monitoring, despite the “Autopilot” name. A Model S swerved into a curb in 2019 and injured its driver, and jurors told Reuters after the verdict that they believed Tesla warned drivers about its system and that driver distraction was to blame.
If Tesla wins another case, especially one with a death involved, it might discourage others from pursuing legal action against the company over Autopilot claims.
The Grenadier SUV Will Go On Sale In The US In November
The Ineos Grenadier is an extremely capable British SUV. It looks like a modern Land Rover Defender and sounds like it was named after a character’s rank in an Evelyn Waugh war novel. Also, unlike so many cool European cars, you’ll soon be able to buy one in the United States.
Here’s the skinny from our pal Richard Truett over at Automotive News:
Nice! If you were curious, Ineos has to pay the Chicken Tax to import the cars into the country, but for something that’s not a huge volume car that seems fine for now (eventually, knockdown kits or other things will be considered). Prices range from $73,100 for the base model and go up from there.
The Big Question
Is the Ineos a good deal at $73,100? A Land Rover Defender S starts at $60,600, so we’re in the ballpark. It’s not as nice, but it’s definitely more old-school.
Photos: Tesla, Kia, David Tracy
Yeah, you definitely don’t need to cover trump.
Isn’t pretty much every car ever made have the possibility of leaking fluid and fire? AFAIK coolant, engine oil, PS fluid, brake fluid, fuel, and especially BMW blinker fluid are all flammable. Over time a leak of any of them is possible and could set your car a blaze. I remember my brothers Peugeot Wagon that had 30ft flames burning it to the ground from a leaky fluid, dang can we retro recall it and get it fixed?
Exactly. And this one is honestly one that I wouldn’t have even expected a recall for.
One, the newest car affected is 9 years old. Two, the actual defect rate is unknown but believed to be a small percentage of the covered cars. Three, the problem is only caused by age and normal wear on a serviceable part. Four, most cars affected by it should have already received a permanent fix (replace failed ABS pump.)
I feel like the past 5 years have really shown an increase in how far back recalls are going. I find it odd that a recall would apply to cars this old, as you said Rootwrym, the newest being 9 years old. Is it because warranties are longer than they have been, and being still under warranty impacts the recall requirements? I don’t really understand it, because if a problem didn’t show up for 9-14 years, I no longer consider that a “manufacturing defect”. Now its just an old car defect.
Was there a 10 year warranty then? If so, I guess it kind of makes sense. Normal usage, possible fatal flaw?
Man, every time I think it’s going to be smooth sailing for Hyundai/Kia, something like this happens. Theft, child labor, fires… I want to feel sorry for them, but I think these problems are self-inflicted.
Aren’t burning Souls a sign of the End Times?
*chef’s kiss*
Kia had to recall souls as the Kias were recalling Souls.
I have like 6-7 problems with EVs that would prevent me from buying one. Eventually cost will decrease, but I see the lack of privacy and tampering prevention (eliminating right to repair) as a much bigger issue. And unfortunately, that problem seems to be getting worse, not better.
Thankfully I can coast on the excuse that I cannot currently afford an EV.
No sure I understand how lack of privacy or tampering prevention are specific to EVs. As I understand, they’re endemic on all modern cars, which is why I plan to keep my 25-year-old pickup running and convert it to an EV when it stops.
Yes that is correct. It does affect all modern cars regardless of the powertrain. I am dreading the idea of ever buying a new car. I plan to keep my 6 year old Civic in good shape and maintain it well. Being relatively new, it should last a good long while as long as nothing catastrophic happens.
Reminds me of the Charlie Stross novel where a main character hangs onto her older Honda Civic (not even TPMS) because it’s effectively invisible in the book’s surveillance dystopia America.
Alright ya little shits on the Tic Tak trying to get all the views, go ahead and steal my Kia. I’ll be laughing my ass off when it explodes before you even get out of the driveway. Yeet THAT, you brats!
Best comment so far today-by far!
My only mistake was saying “views”. Angry Old Man doesn’t know what views or clicks are. He would have said “lookies” or something like that.
They were probably going to burn it anyway, lol.
If you engage autopilot, you assume the risk that the machine will get you home safely. Just like if you ride a bus or take a cab or have your buddy drive you somewhere. All avenues have the potential of risk. Much like any decision in life and not all options are guaranteed to reach the destination safely (even the choice to drive yourself). Driving is dangerous no matter how you cut it. I hope the lawsuit gets thrown out. We don’t need innovation held back because early adopters presume everything will work out perfectly in life. Because it doesn’t.
… gosh that was dark… I’m normally not that dark… going to go listen to Depeche Mode now.
If I take a bus and get injured because it drove me in to a tree, who is at fault? If I take a cab and get injured because it drove me in to a tree, who is at fault? If my buddy drives me and runs in to a tree, who is at fault?
No one is arguing with the risk the Tesla owner assumed. The argument is who has to carry the fault and therefore also the financial burden. In all three of your examples, we already know who’s fault it is.
You didn’t buy the bus so the liability is on the bus company. You didn’t buy the cab so the liability is on the cabbie. You didn’t buy your buddies car or establish a transit agreement so liability is on buddy. But the risk is still there no matter. So, while I do agree with you. When you purchase a product the assumption of liability is in the air until the manufacturer is forced to create language within the ownership manual or a warning label. The grey area with this whole deal is autopilot is a trust between owner and machine and somewhat different from a part failure or design flaw. I guess what I am trying to get at is all decisions are flawed because they are all not guaranteed especially with driving 🙂 Appreciate your input!
“The grey area with this whole deal is autopilot is a trust between owner and machine and somewhat different from a part failure or design flaw.”
Seems like a computer program that doesn’t work the way it is intended could be considered a design flaw.
Which is true. But at least with a computer program there’s a set amount of variables and programmers will debug to ensure all variables can be met without failure (even if it takes revisions and patches over time). Driving involves infinite amount of variables. There’s no way a programmer or even AI for that matter can factor in all the variables of automobile piloting to ensure a 100% safety guarantee. Teslas are close and there’s always room for improvement. But the assumption of risk still falls on the owner for establishing trust without 100% survival guarantee.
“Driving involves infinite amount of variables.”
That’s why it is dangerous to put it into the hands of something that is not good at dealing with novel situations. Humans are bad at driving in a lot of ways, but we are really good at one thing that computers are not: contextualizing a variety of stimuli we have not necessarily seen together before. We are also better at recognizing the human behaviors around us.
Computers are great at paying attention. They’re fantastic at repetitive tasks. Using them as driving aids, such as warning a driver to pay attention or drawing attention to variables could be great. Instead of AI driving, have an AI assistant that works with a HUD to ensure you see the kid running around the parked cars or whatever else.
But proper application isn’t really the question here, I just skipped over to it. The fact is that a company has put its testing out into public roadways and make statements about it being ready, just not approved by regulators. People then use it, expecting it to have capabilities it does not have. And, as already discussed, it is known that there are more variables in driving than the system could possibly account for. So the question is whether releasing this system into the world and suggesting it is more capable than it can possibly be is negligent.
And that is a perfectly fair question to put before the court. If Tesla has been negligent, Tesla should be held liable.
I love this take. Thanks for the well written response. should be interesting to see how the court handles it.
What a stupid take.
Thanks! I appreciate your input. Enjoy your day. <3
well he is chris with bad opinions
The Ineos would be a good deal less chicken tax, but with chicken tax hard pass.
Re: Trump: Why do we give this fraudster (empirical) any attention? That’s what he wants!
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure the chicken tax is 25%, so potential pricing impact could be significant if the switch to knockdown kits, etc.
But also, my understanding is that the chicken tax DOESN’T apply to passenger vehicles. That is why the Subaru Brat had jump seats in the bed. That is why Ford imported passenger versions of the Transit Connect, then stripped the passenger interiors and converted them back to commercial vans once they were here.
So why does the Grenadier get chicken taxed?
no Idea, I’m some random ass internet commenter.
Really I’m saying it would be a great deal if it was cheaper.
Correct on both, the Chicken Tax is 25% and does not apply to passenger vehicles. So the Chicken Tax would not apply to the Grenadier.
GVWR too high? Which I guess means buyers will do the Hummer H1 thing and purchase them as commercial vehicles, then take accelerated depreciation.
Came here to ask the same thing. Ineos should not be subject to the chicken tax because it’s a passenger vehicle, not cargo.
It’s still a light truck. The Chicken Tax applies to more than just cargo vehicles unfortunately.
If this was considered a passenger vehicle, it would be subject to different crash safety regulations it almost certainly can’t pass.
If this is correct, then why did adding seats to the Brat, and importing passenger versions of Transit Connects work to avoid tax? Did they both fall under a different section of the tax?
The Subaru Brat was classed as a passenger vehicle because it was based on a passenger vehicle and had seats in the bed so it could still be classed as a passenger vehicle.
The Transit Connect was car-like enough that Ford was able to import it as a passenger vehicle before the feds said “stop that” and the loophole was closed.
Vehicle classification is weird and not always intuitive. For example, the PT Cruiser, which clearly appears to be a car, is actually classed as a light truck. If PT Cruisers had been manufactured overseas, they would have had to pay the chicken tax to sell imported ones here. And there’s no way the Ineos Grenadier can be considered anything other than an aggressively utilitarian trucky vehicle, no matter what lifestyle image purposes its potential customer base has for it. It wouldn’t be road legal if it wasn’t a light truck, so it gets chicken’d.
The PT cruiser came to mind when I was following up on your first comment. I thought what you describe might be the case. I do recall Ford getting their wrist slapped for the Transit thing. Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.
Because this is a historic automotive strike. And they’re covering it. Because you (and I) don’t like him, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be covered. Would you rather people go to truth social to see what trump has to say? Or an experienced journalist like Matt break it down for you?
Yeah it’s a damned if you do damned if you don’t. He’s newsworthy because he’s newsworthy.
That, and the Dems *desperately* want to run against him because they ain’t looking great if it’s not him. Hell, it’s not looking great even if it is him. They’ll spend more time pushing him than he will himself.
That’s largely how he won 2016 (or so it appeared during and in the immediate aftermath). Seemed like every third word from the talking heads was his last name. With such repetitive coverage and the resulting name embedding in the overall conversation there was no surprise that he won.
Perfect storm of wall-to-wall media and a moderately alright, average at best opponent.
The law will eventually come for Tesla when the right case is brought. This one could be it. Sympathetic plaintiffs and facts and Musk’s current public reputation as someone who could care less about human rights and consumer safety in the name of progress.
You can’t put a spring gun on a door and then claim the sign said not to open it. Warnings only go so far. Just a matter of time before Tesla has a reconning with that.
Yes, thank you! I hope he and Tesla gets sued to oblivion and cease to exist!
No, nope, just hope that they are held accountable for the risks they are imposing on society. Tesla has done a lot of good, just needs to a swift kick in the pants to remind them that they need to be good corporate citizens.
While I hope this is true I’m about as optimistic about Elon getting what he deserves as I am that the dump will actually be convicted of any of his hundreds of felonies. Rich white men in this country can rape and murder to their delight with no consequences.
If you’re having a bad day today. Just close your eyes and offer the universe gratitude that you are not currently a tech at The Local Kia/Hyundai dealership. I’m sure their notoriously stretched thin departments have the capacity and budgets to handle another major recall. Anecdotal, and somewhat unrelated, but my friends been waiting five months for a warranty Santa Fe battery. So, she’s probably stoked by this news as well.
IDK, I wonder how much book time the recall pays for a fuse swap. Could be a gold mine for techs.
Probably like .10, but they’ll only book three in an hour. Most people will be hours late, service advisor is going to get weird. Never mind it’s 3 p.m., you have 9 this hour. Go find your next Soul, in a field of Souls. And oh no! You’ve ran out of fuses for some reason.
My buddys 2 month old Niro sat at the dealership for 8 months…waiting for engineers to help them fix why it died in the driveway. This fuse thing will give our local techs a break from trying to think anyway…
> You’ve ran out of fuses for some reason.
That’s the real reason pennies are still in circulation.
RE: UAW Eventual electrification is inevitable, how fast or slow is dependent on MANY variables. My current daily is a mild (non plug in) hybrid and it just makes so much sense. Anything we can do to reduce/eliminate emissions/CO2 is better than nothing. Better to plan for it now than be caught off guard later, better to domesticate the production than to offshore. I worked as a front line supervisor/engineer in steel mills for 20 years and see both sides of the union/management divide.
Boy, when I traded in my Kia a couple years ago, I had no idea that I was dodging so many bullets!
1) Well done on the handling of the hot-button topic of Trump’s speech, I appreciate the restraint, and I hope that this site continues in that vein whenever the inevitable intersections between cars and politics make the news. Though I imagine Matt had to go to a Rage Yoga class to unwind after writing that section…
2) Ugh, ‘disemboweled child’ was NOT on my ‘things I expect to read in the Morning Dump today’ bingo card. I hope Tesla gets absolutely slaughtered in court over this, setting a precedent which will keep the autonomous driving grifters more honest forevermore.
That said, it is settled law that keeping control of a car is the sole responsibility of the driver, and I will be teaching my kids to never ever utilize autonomous driving features of any car they are nominally the driver of. Once it is time to argue about who is to blame for a crash, it is far too late.
“ That said, it is settled law that keeping control of a car is the sole responsibility of the driver,”
But… can it be argued that the software is the driver?
Not legally. You cannot bring a lawsuit against a piece of code, you have to file it against a human being or collection of human beings- like in the suit from the article Tesla (a collection of individual humans) is being sued, not the autopilot software.
Did you see the article about Mercedes’ level 3 thing that’s been deployed for certain models in certain areas? Apparently they take “full legal liability” when it’s active. In that circumstance I think I’d be willing.
Nonetheless Tesla’s names alone (Autopilot, FSD) are stupidly misleading and we’ve already covered how bad humans are at monitoring others’ performance.
The problem is that “autopilot” is completely accurate if you know what a real autopilot actually does. But many are stupid, so they just assume they can zone out… like they do with cruise control and other drivers aids. Still, if you’re paying attention, AP and it’s ilk are fantastic. I did a 3 hour each way trip yesterday through variable fog/rain and autopilot worked fine.
True. I have little doubt AutoPilot is probably “adequate”–I’m sure it’d be a bigger part of the news cycle if everyone using it was having severe issues and crashes–but it comes back to the monitoring/vigilance problem that’s already been documented here.
The Ineos Grenadier was named after a pub, which was named after the Grenadier Guards, an English regiment that dates from 1656. A grenadier is a bomb thrower btw.
Huh. I skipped several steps. I just assumed it was directly named after the bomb throwers. Cool to know the way it got the name.
I don’t know if it’s always true, but getting even basic warranty repairs is already hell with the Kia dealership near me. I’m up to my 5th or 6th service ticket for what sounded like a bad solenoid in the charging port lock. Well, that was the problem it started with.
I hear what sounds like solenoid clicking. They can’t diagnose on the weekend, so I drop it off after work and get a ride home. I get a call the next day that they are pretty sure it just needs an update. To get the update to install, I need a new battery (not the traction battery, just the 12V). That’s not under warranty, so I pay (too much) for a new one.
The update did not solve the problem. They order the part they need. I get a ride to the dealership to pick up my car.
I drop it back off when the part arrives 2-3 weeks later. They install the new part. It does not solve the issue. They tell me they’ll order the part they really need and I can come in and pick up my car. I go to pick it up just before closing time. The charging port door will not close. They tell me that’s fine, they’ll just fix and clean that when they install the part. I ask if they can get me a loaner car the next time, because getting a ride to the dealership is a pain. They say they’ll try to have one for me.
I don’t drive the car much while I wait, because I don’t want the port gunked up.
They get the next part in and ask me to bring in the car. I ask about a loaner. No loaners available. I take it in. They fix the clicking, but the door still won’t shut. They get the parts overnighted this time and keep my car.
They tell me everything is fixed. I get them to send a shuttle. I go in and they offer the paperwork for me to sign. I ask to inspect the car first. The charging port is closed, so I unlock the car and open it. Well, I try, but it doesn’t open. I unlock again for good measure, but it’s stuck. The service guy asks if I unlocked it. He comes out and tries. He manages to get it open. He closes it and opens it. He locks and unlocks the car. Stuck again. He goes to see if a tech can take a look.
Service manager comes out. He tells me that it must have been working when they parked it, because they wouldn’t put it out there still broken. I say that the door hanging open previously made it seem like they would. He tries to give me my keys and I tell him I’m not taking my car back until they fix it properly. I tell him I’ll need a loaner. It’s a Friday, and he says he’ll have a loaner Monday. I tell him to pay for a cab, since their shuttle was done for the day. I also tell him they can be rid of me if they give me private party bluebook for it. He gets me a ride home.
On Saturday, they get me a loaner and deliver it. The service guy tells me that my car will be checked by 4 people before they have me pick it up and that they’ll call Kia Engineering Department to verify what repairs are needed. On Wednesday, I get a message that they fixed it, but now the plastic assembly holding the panel has stress cracks. They don’t think it’s a problem (in my experience, stress cracks in plastic only get worse), but they’ll replace it, too.
This started in mid-July, and I’m hoping to get my car back tomorrow.
It might not be all Kia repairs that suck, but it has been enough of a pain to turn me off of Kia. And it’s not even one of the models catching fire!
That sounds brutal. I have a friend whose Hyundai motor grenaded itself under warranty. it took 8 months for them to source and install a whole new engine. Along with having seen 4 hyundai fires in person I advise anyone asking my opinion to stay away from them. They have started making some really good looking cars, but it seems to be lipstick on a pig.
Between this, the fires, and the theft crap, I’m definitely going to get into something not built by Kiundai as soon as I can figure out what to get. If Subaru would just make a PHEV Outback, I’d probably buy that. Instead, they stopped the Crosstrek PHEV.
Offering to sell it to them for private blue book is very funny in a bad situation. Sounds like they are trying but failing. Some times it gross incompetence. Like the time they forgot to tighten the lug nuts on the back wheels of my Mom’s car after swapping out the snow tires. Mr. Taco, any relation to Lynn?
I’d buy they were trying and failing better if they hadn’t left the charging port door dangling open on the earlier attempt. After the service manager told me they wouldn’t have parked it unless it was 100% repaired, it really left a bad taste.
I felt like private blue book was fair. I didn’t want to just take trade value, but I am certainly not going to ask for something ridiculous, like what I paid 3 years ago or something.
Forgetting to tighten the lug nuts is really bad. I had a roommate whose engine was done after an oil change place mixed up the oil and coolant hoses. Big mistakes are rough.
I live in fear of something going wrong with my N. Fortunately it’s been dead reliable so far even with a fair amount of abuse but if you need something done under warranty for a Hyundai good fucking luck. Fortunately I missed the big DCT recall (my car’s production was literally days before it took effect) but the N forums are loaded with folks who weren’t so lucky and it took their service departments months just to get their cars in. Many are still waiting on the fix a full year later.
I had one electronic issue with mine (it kept beeping at me claiming it was on an uneven surface when it wasn’t) and when I looked to see if I could get it in the next appointment was a full month out. I’d either have to live with the incessant beeping for that long or figure it out myself. Fortunately the internet was my friend, this bug is common, and doing a hard reset on the infotainment system cleared it.
But yeah…apparently they’re so behind with all the recalls/theta engines offing themselves en masse you’re pretty much SOL if something goes wrong. Hope you don’t need your car for a few weeks! I’ve also had blah experiences with them doing preventative maintenance. They cover oil changes/tire rotations for the first 3 years of ownership so I’ve been getting them done every 5,000 miles.
The first time they were supposed to do both they didn’t rotate my tires. It wasn’t a huge deal since I’d swapped out the OEM P Zeros for Goodyear Exhilarate performances all seasons that only had about 1000 miles on them, but I noticed. I’ve also heard horror stories on the N forums of dealerships not knowing how to handle Ns and using the wrong oil/parts/etc in them. Lots of N owners supply their own oil to dealerships for the changes and keep track of the filters to make sure they’re actually changed. I’m not nearly at that point in my OCD yet/I’m a cheap bastard who’s going to keep accepting free work but I may get there.
As I said in my OG comment…Hyundai and Kia are used to buying and selling shitboxes. They’re now making some objectively cool and desirable cars, but until they get their QC/dealership situations under control their reputation of being cheap/unreliable isn’t going anywhere.
A friend of mine, “outsmarted” my recommendation way back of buying a very gently used (sub-30K miles) Lexus ES, and instead bought a new Hyundai Sonata for the same price. The Lexus was the same money, but, “new is better.”
This might be the 9th recall for the Sonata now. Already has needed a new engine a few years back. He has had at least 14 months since he bought the car with it out of commission. Its resale is also quite a bit lower, as the Toyota 2GR is a known quantity.
but you bought a Kia, a noted shitbox, so
TBH that sounds actually fairly decent for some dealerships nowadays (not a good thing, just giving some optics), especially delivering the loaner to you, though you probably should have already been in one for the installation visit. If they were out of loaners then they should have paid for a rental vehicle.
Is yours a Niro or EV6, or one of the plug-in hybrids?
Niro PHEV. Before this happened, I’d been looking at the Sportage PHEV or EV6 as potential purchases, but I don’t think I’ll go that way now.
The service guy told me it was the first time he’d ever delivered a loaner, but he felt it was the right thing to do. I think he’s doing his best to do the right thing, but the service department, Kia, and/or the tech continue to make it difficult. If asked to rate the service there, I’d give him high marks and the service department much lower marks.
“Hey Hyundai Kia, how them JD Powa Awards workin out for ya? You use the smaht pahk to drive them home?” -Mahk probably
Man Hyundai and Kia just can’t get out of their own way when it comes to manufacturing and quality control, and it’s a damn shame because they’ve made such strides in the last decade. They finally have desirable cars that are competitive in pretty much every class and, love them or hate them them, their designs consistently push the envelope. They’re also decent value propositions pretty much across the board if you can afford to eat the mammoth depreciation.
But they still make headlines for shit like this seemingly every couple of weeks. Their cars catch on fire. Youths can steal many of them with a damn USB drive and get free clout on social media. They found CHILDREN working in one of their factories. They had an entire engine family experience catastrophic issues…
Unfortunately they’re still built like cheap cars, and no amount of design, features, and value can circumvent that. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I won’t recommend them to anyone, and mine has been the best car I’ve ever owned…but you’re rolling the dice when you buy one, and the depreciation pretty much does away with the money you save up front. They needed to get their shit together a long time ago but it’s clear that they cut lots of corners.
$70,000? Dear god. Rich assholes who want a boxy British off-roader are a finite resource…and the ones that are willing to go German will gravitate towards the G Class, which remains an aspirational car for hoards of normies. Post Malone’s got one, right? Your Instagram needs one too!
I don’t think this will sell, especially with the class redefining Land Cruiser that’s on the way. That will essentially undercut the Defender by 10 grand, undercut the Ineos by 20, and offer Japanese reliability, which is…uh…not the same as English reliability. It’s also going to be a hybrid.
I think folks underestimate how big of a deal that is. Plenty of rich urbanites are environmentally conscious and will choose the hybrid over the gas guzzling Brits if they don’t already have a Rivian. I think this is going to see results that are similar to the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer. It just feels like a product that’s 10 years too late…although the base engine is the (insert Jack from Savagegeese breathing heavily) B58…so it might not be a total loss on that front, although with it’s aerodynamics it will certainly still be bad.
The new Land Cruiser is the new but better FJ Cruiser and will be a hit. The Ineos was gonna be made in Wales but is made is France at the old Smart factory I think? So an old Benz plant that they put a lot of $ into. Better than Wales? Who knows. I’d still prefer the LC.
Look, if you’re going to buy a car that’s likely to randomly catch on fire, you should go all in and just buy a Ferrari. Why put up with a Kia? Might as well enjoy the car before it goes *whoosh*. And as for your Dad, you posted the win-win situation for him – he parks it outside and some teenager with a screwdriver steals it. Take the insurance money and buy something not likely to burst into flames (or go all in and get a Ferrari).
Or at least make the appointment for the theft recall, and park it outside. If it gets stolen before then, oh well. That particular recall took a whopping 30 minutes. Just enough time to enjoy a complimentary soda and do some meme scrolling in the waiting room.
I find it ironic that a member of my wife’s family is rabidly anti-EV because “they randomly catch fire”. This family member has exclusively owned Kia products for the past 15+ years, including several that have been part of the “randomly catches fire” recalls.
ICE cars are more likely to catch fire than EVs, and that says a lot because the LiIon batteries most commonly used for EVs are highly unstable and tend to want to catch fire if you puncture them or if they suffer from internal dendrite buildup. Most EV fires would be eliminated by switching to the LiFePO4 chemistry, and the battery lifespan would be increased by at least 2x at the same time, but then you’ll lose about 25% range per unit of weight(which can more than be made up for with aerodynamic improvements: screw those corporate aesthetic trends such as oversized wheels, oversized grilles, creases, plastic cladding, fake vents, ect rammed down our collective throats. We need slippery more than ever for EVs).
Yes, removing all the aesthetics from an EV just to get BACK to the range they already had is a solid business plan…sure to increase the sales volume of EVs by magnitudes.
They already pretty much all look like jelly beans. Now you are talking about sending them all the way to bland indistinguishable appliance. I’m fairly sure that would not result in increased sales.
If the car companies would start building something other than SUV/CUV blobs, they won’t all have to look like jellybeans. There are a lot of low-drag shapes to mimic and modify in order to make a vehicle compliant with regulations, as long as aero slipperiness is placed ahead of brand identity and the current styling trends of the time. The reason cars look the same is because the industry keeps copying its competitors. Creativity is mostly narrowed by whatever the upper management and beancounters dictate, thanks to design-by-committee. There’s no vision anymore, and that is part of the problem(and is also the reason why Tesla, for all of Elon Musk’s faults, stands out).
We could have radically more slippery vehicles, which would reduce the size of a battery needed for a given range, and could make costs of EVs come down significantly.
Examples:
-1954 Fiat Turbina, 0.13 Cd
-1954 Alfa Romeo BAT7, 0.19
-1967 Panhard Cd Peugeot 66C, 0.13
-1978 Mercedes Benz C111-III, 0.19
-1984 Chevrolet Citation IV, 0.18
-1985 Ford Probe V, 0.137
-1989 GM Impact, 0.19
-1998 Solectria Sunrise, 0.17
-1998 Dodge Intrepid ESX2, 0.19
-2000 GM Precept, 0.16
-2005 Mercedes Bionic, 0.19
-2013 VW XL1, 0.19
-2020 Mercedes Benz EQXX, 0.17
-2023 Aptera 2e, 0.13
All of these vehicles look distinguished from each other, and all have Cd values below 0.2. There are a large variety of low-drag shapes to work with.
Harry Metcalfe did a ride along with some Mercedes engineers in the EQXX recently. He was staggered by its efficiency.
Curious to see where the EQXX goes for Mercedes, and what other manufacturers come up with to drive Cd into the ground but still have an appealing shape.
If one knows the relationship between road loading and vehicle efficiency, then one won’t be staggered. If the vision would have existed in someone’s head in the 1970s fuel crisis in conjunction with the money to build a working proof of concept, we could have had a car with the CdA value of the Vision EQXX, getting a 200+ mile range at the federal 55 mph speed limit hauling a literal ton of golf cart batteries. And this could have been a big car with the passenger space of a limousine, a car a pimp would be proud to drive, completely doable with the inferior battery, motor, and controller tech of the era. For a real-world proof of concept of this idea, see Dave Cloud’s “Dolphin”, a modified Geo Metro built in 2006, that got a 200 mile range at 70 mph, on lead acid batteries, using series-wound DC motors and golf cart controllers.
Mercedes could have built the C111-III streamliner back in the 1970s, and made a 60+ mpg diesel supercar with a tuned version of the OM617, if they really wanted to. They did build such a vehicle as a test in 1978, and reached 200 mph on 257 horsepower at the Nardo test track. It got 14.7 mpg averaging 195 mph, at a time when your average car barely got 14.7 mpg at 55 mph. That is the power of reducing road loading. Cars have to this day not embraced this, and instead only have had small, incremental improvements in this metric, and over the last decade, have in fact been going backwards toward increasing load.
I built a vehicle that uses 1/20th the energy per mile of the EQXX. It is not at all FMVSS compliant and is only a proof of concept(more an ebike than a car), but I have racked up over 70,000 miles on it since 2016. It only seats 1, but the concept was proven with it. I can run errands and shove the trunk full of groceries. A trip from St. Louis to Kansas City costs less than $0.25 of electricity.
People simply have no idea what sort of efficiency is possible in a ground vehicle. They’ve been propagandized to think that they need far more vehicle than they actually do, and industry and government have both done everything they can to reinforce that notion, even to the point of using legislation to effectively outlaw small cars from being sold in the USA even if they haven’t done so explicitly.
The late Luigi Colani understood this, and had some words to say about modern vehicle design: “The world is super-stupid. You have by far the best designers in America! And you do the most stupid cars in the world! They put billions into their stupid designs for General Motors, Chrysler, Buick, or who knows what. The designers in America must be frustrated. I am not frustrated, because I am not a designer – I am a philosopher, and all philosophers have said for ages that the world around them is stupid.”
I should’ve clarified.
It wasn’t so much Harry was staggered by the range, it was that he was staggered by the range in something actual people would pay money for.
It didn’t look goofy. It wasn’t slow. It wasn’t a science experiment. It felt like a finished product that could be put on sale without anyone fussing over it, and might actually sell in real volumes.
Yes. This sort of aero efficiency can indeed be done with products people would actually want and would buy. It’s been doable for a century now, but load reduction has largely been ignored by manufacturers this entire time.
If you want an inexpensive 200+ mile range EV, it is also necessary. Not everyone can afford a $60,000+ CUV. Something with aero efficiency like the Vision EQXX, perhaps in a smaller, lighter package, is how you keep the size of the battery down to under 30 kWh, which in turn, opens the door not just to inexpensive long-range EVs that ordinary people can afford, but also light-weight electric sports cars.
This also applies to gasoline powered cars. Want your V8 to sip fuel instead of guzzle? Put it in a lightweight streamliner. The Corvette C5 is the closest we got to this, and it can eek out 30 mpg at 70 mph, stock. The Corvette C5 is also a big car, with length and width comparable to a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee, and its drag coefficient while not all that slippery, was better than most cars of its time, at 0.28. Put that LS V8 into something 500+ lbs lighter, with half the overall CdA value, and similar long-legged gearing, and watch that fuel economy rise with performance quite dramatically. Dare I say that it is possible to get highway fuel economy better than a modern Prius, using a V8. You just need the right platform with a sufficiently slippery body.
I have personally seen 4 Hyundai/Kias on fire in the real world. I have never seen an EV fire. I know the ratio’s of vehicles on the road is vastly different, but EVs do not equal more fire. I remain unsurprised every 6 months Hyundai/Kia recall more cars for fires, as I have personally seen enough fires to warrant a recall on all their vehicles.
The Grenadier needs more cool colors, and also an interior option other than black.
They should’ve used an LS engine, maybe even one of the connect and cruise options that has the engine and transmission ready to go.
Bigger issue with the recall is I believe it’s a leaky caliper (or other) O-ring that’s the culprit. However they’re not replacing the O-ring; they’re replacing a fuse. Does that solve the O-ring problem that might lead to other serious problems? No, but it stops the potential fires.
Typical for Hyundai/Kia, taking the cheapest way out. Even if doing so might eventually lead to a future recall for braking related issues, or issues that might cause injury/death but won’t merit a recall.
Ford did the same thing when their master cylinders were leaking on the wiring and starting fires. They just added a fuse where there wasn’t one. They get away with this because a leaks like this are considered wear and tear when they are on 10+ year old vehicles.
Yep. What’s funny is for some of the vehicles recalled, this is already the 2nd recall for the same issue, where the actual problem isn’t fixed. If there ends up being a third recall which finally replaces the O-ring, doubt it will end up being cheaper than having done it right the first time.
Or….park it inside and pull the ABS fuse. Put back when driving, or don’t and enjoy some hooning.
My son’s 2013 Kia Soul is part of the recall. It’s been a reliable car for him, with just the usual oil changes and tires. Only thing I had to do out of the ordinary was to replace the crank sensor. He only has outside parking, so we just have to hope it doesn’t burn down other cars 🙁
British SUV
“Production of the U.S. version of the Grenadier began Sept. 22 at the company’s Hambach, France, plant“
So, technically, is this the spiritual successor to the Smart SUV the brand always needed and never got?
Claiming that the switch to EVs will eliminate UAW jobs, so the union should prevent EV manufacturing in America, is one way to write a self fulfilling prophecy
It is consistent with the local opposition to Rivian’s new factory in Georgia: former US Senator David Perdue called it “a woke California company whose mission is to turn the world green.”
What color would they rather it be? An ugly burnt brown? Yeesh.
There should be a middle ground – let’s stop forcing EVs down the manufacturer’s throats and let them come naturally via the market. If you have to bribe people with a tax rebate (taken from everyone, including those who can’t afford an EV) to buy them, then in their current form they probably aren’t ready for most people. And maybe if the govt backs off, we can get some more PHEVs, which is a much better use of the current tech anyway.
Couple this with ending fossil fuel subsidies and ending all of the expensive military adventures used to secure access to resources, and both significant vehicle downsizing coupled with electric drive systems will quickly come into their own, as a survival necessity.
Removing barriers of entry into the auto industry itself would also foster innovation and creativity of the likes which hasn’t been seen since the early 20th century. And we really need this sort of creativity and innovation to tackle the challenges ahead.
More government AND consolidation of corporate power among a few players has led us to the current situation. Were it not for Tesla causing disruption(and needing taxpayer money along the way), I am highly doubtful we’d have EVs at all to this day, from anyone, since the auto industry spent half a century propagandizing the public with their claims that this technology would never be viable and no one would want it, and then fighting it every step of the way, in spite of all of the pieces needed to make it work in some form having been around since the early 20th century.
You know…. I get a little weary of the argument that EV fires are okay because they don’t happen as often as ICE fires. No one wants to buy that argument when it comes to Cherynobal style nuclear accidents. Those don’t happen very often either.
Sure that’s a hyperbolic comparison but seriously, EV fires are usually an order of magnitude (or two) worse than an ICE fire. ICE fires usually (sure, not always) can be put out with “$25” automotive fire extinguisher and once put out, stay out. Often the car may be damaged, but not destroyed.
EV fires require thousands and thousands of gallons of water/retardant and may still recur spontaneously days later.
https://ctif.org/news/150-000-liters-water-needed-put-out-fire-electric-car
The number of EV fires with repairable damage are very, very few. The cars are going to be totaled, and ideally thus not take your garage, your house, or other cars parked nearby with them.
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/20/f-150-lightning-fire-footage-growing-ev-risk.html
I am not saying EV’s are death traps, or uninsurable disasters waiting to happen – they’re fine and fires ARE comparatively rare. However trying to argue that fires are not a problem by drawing any direct comparisons between an EV fire and an ICE fire is bullshit and frankly embarrassingly intellectually shallow. Stop it.
I see this talked about often, but I am skeptical this will really make a difference. Looks like the latest numbers are roughly $20 billion in fossil fuel subsidies, $16 billion of which is for oil.
Compared to the $738.65 billion in gas station fuel sales, that $16 billion represents just 2% of consumer gas sales (2022 numbers not available, but should be higher). So by all means end the subsidies, but since they already only look like a rounding error compared to total sales don’t expect it to make a perceptible impact.
The market case for EVs has to be based on something a heck of a lot stronger than a 2% subsidy.
Those are direct subsidies only. Other estimates (notably from the IMF) include externalities. As a non-oil example, a coal plant with high sulphur emissions causes acid rain, which damages buildings and crops downwind of the plant. If farmers and local governments pay for the cleanup, that’s an “implicit subsidy.” Or so the reasoning goes.
By latest estimates, implicit US oil subsidies are northwards of $620b/yr.
No, if you read the article that’s including direct and indirect subsidies. Oil just isn’t subsidized that much.
“Implicit subsidies” is a vague and ill-defined term that butterfly-effects whatever chain of causality the one using it chooses to best support their argument. $620b per year has no basis in the tax code or financial accounting, and can be argued to be whatever number you want.
Maybe I’m just a weird curmudgeon from an old and irrelevant world, but I was raised to believe that if you break something, you buy it. That wasn’t some newfangled convoluted idea with no basis in financial accounting, it was just common sense.
You’re free to disagree and all, but it just makes sense to me that if you’re allowed to break something without buying it, that means you’ve been given something of measurable value.
What did fossil fuels break? What is your basis of comparison for making that claim- a world where we continue to rely on wood-burning stoves for heat and draft animals for transportation? That describes essentially all human history since the invention of agriculture, and spoiler: it sucks for the vast, vast majority of the population. The first municipal power plant opened in 1882 in London, and there is no magic steampunk technology that would have allowed for a carbon-neutral grid in the Victorian era, your choices are burn coal and improve the living standards of everyone, or literally shovel shit and shiver in the dark.
We are finally at the point where technological and economic developments have allowed us to move on from fossil fuels, but the idea that there was some alternate solution to industrializing the entire planet simply has no basis in reality.
Hey now. I never said the Industrial Revolution was a net negative. I said that there’s a cost for progress. For every profit to be made, there’s a price to be paid. The fossil fuel industry has taken their profits but never paid the price in full, and lately they’ve worked hard to hide that cost from the public for that very reason.
Just because a parking lot can improve the local economy doesn’t mean you can bulldoze someone’s house without buying it first.
Sigh: $20 Billion in subsidies
“In the United States, by some estimates taxpayers pay about $20 billion dollars every year to the fossil fuel industry.”
https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/sen-whitehouse-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-we-are-subsidizing-the-danger-
Okay..
Meanwhile: “US Revenues from Fossil Fuels, Responsible for $138 Billion Annually..”
https://www.rff.org/news/press-releases/us-revenues-from-fossil-fuels-responsible-for-138-billion-annually-expected-to-fall-regardless-of-climate-action/
Also:
“The Inflation Reduction Act includes $393 billion in clean vehicle tax credits by 2032, according to the Penn Wharton Budget Model…”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/president-biden-union-jobs-electric-vehicles-united-auto-workers-ed2987de