All right class, settle down. Timmy, sit up straight. Bobby, put that away until recess. I hope you all had a good holiday break, and behaved yourselves for the substitute. Welcome back to a new year of Shitbox Showdown!
Before we get started, I want to take a moment to thank some people. First, huge thanks to Thomas for holding down the fort for me with such enthusiasm and flair. I really appreciate it. Second, thank you all so much for the outpouring of condolences and support about my dad. It means more than you can possibly know. And finally, because I haven’t had a chance to do so, huge thanks to all our newly-minted supporting members! Together, we are showing that a site like this can be a community, not a commodity, and I am proud and honored to be a part of it.
Now let’s talk cars.
Thomas’s sports cars from Friday seemed like a no-brainer to me; I’ve never driven an RX-8, but I have spent some quality time behind the wheel of a Boxster, and it’s the clear choice to me, especially with the scary engine bits taken care of. But let’s see what you all thought:
It seems we are in agreement. I do love the idea of a rotary, but make mine an RX3 or 4.
Today’s cars were unashamedly chosen just to be able to make that LL Cool J pun in the headline. I’ve been sitting on that for about three weeks now, just itching to use it. A Kammback, for those of you who have never come across the term before, is a car design that ends abruptly at the rear. The idea, as far as my high-school-physics understanding goes, is to reduce aerodynamic drag by creating a wake in the air behind the car. It also can make for some bizarre styling, as you’ll see in our choices below. Note that one of the cars is for sale on Bring A Trailer, so the price shown might not be current. And I’d advise you to turn on your ad-blocker before clicking on the other one – sorry.
1969 Saab Sonett V4 – currently $1,188
Engine/drivetrain: 1.5 liter overhead-valve V4, 4 speed manual, FWD
Location: Terminal Island, CA
Odometer reading: 15,000 miles, actual mileage unknown
Runs/drives? Starts and runs, but not drivable
Perennial weird-kid Saab isn’t really known for small sports cars, but for a while, they built a really cool one. The Sonett, originally introduced in the ’50s as a roadster that looked a little like a Porsche 550 Spyder, was designed for racing, but later morphed into a fastback road car. The Sonett shared mechanicals with more family-friendly Saabs: early Sonetts used their two-stroke three-cylinder engine, while later cars such as this one were powered by a V4 engine. This engine came from the Taunus, which sounds like a creature from Narnia, but was actually a family sedan built by Ford of Germany.
This Sonett’s four-banger will start and run, but only off an external fuel source; apparently the car has been sitting and the fuel tank and lines haven’t been cleaned out yet. But hey, starting with an even marginally-running project is a leg up. Sending power to the front wheels is a four-speed stick equipped with a column-mounted shifter.
Overall, its condition isn’t stellar, but it isn’t terrible either. This looks to me like the sort of car you could mechanically refresh and enjoy as-is without cringing every time someone parks too close. The interior is intact and isn’t frightening. The red paint covers up quite a few bumps and bruises in the fiberglass bodywork, but you can’t see them from the driver’s seat.
The only drawback I see is the crowds of lookie-loos it would be sure to draw everywhere you parked it. Questions like “What is that?” and “How fast does it go?” could get tiresome after a while. But in a land of silver crossovers, why not stand out a little?
1977 AMC Gremlin Levi’s Edition – $2,000
Engine/drivetrain: 2.0 liter overhead-cam inline 4, 4 speed manual, RWD
Location: Parkers Prairie, MN
Odometer reading: 65,000 miles, actual mileage unknown
Runs/drives? Um… no.
The story behind the AMC Gremlin’s styling involves Dick Teague, a clay model, a jilted lover, and a cheese slicer. Or at least I wish it did; the actual story is probably far less interesting. However it happened, while Chrysler was busy capturing imports and Ford did a joint venture with Weber Grills, AMC took a Gordian-knot approach to the subcompact problem and simply lopped a foot off the ass end of an existing car. It worked, at least stylistically; the Gremlin still looks cool.
This Gremlin is a Levi’s Edition, with interior fabric made to look like denim jeans; they couldn’t use real denim because of fire-safety regulations, apparently. My aunt had one of these when I was young, and I still remember how cool I thought the little red tags on the seats were. Those tags, along with most of the upholstery, appear to be gone on this Gremlin. Be prepared to hit up an upholstery shop.
Very early base-model Gremlins had a fixed rear window that didn’t open. This car has an opening back window, and fortunately it’s intact; I can’t imagine trying to track down replacement glass for something like this. You’ll have a hard enough time dealing with the sheetmetal, which is rusty, dented, and just plain ugly. And I don’t know where new taillights or a grille are going to come from. Best fire up the 3D printer, I suppose.
We don’t get any underhood shots, but the “2 Liter” badging on the fenders tells me that this car has the heart of a Porsche. No, really – AMC added a four-cylinder to the Gremlin’s engine lineup in 1977, a VW/Audi unit also used in the Porsche 924. This car has been sitting in a field in Minnesota for who knows how long, so it’s safe to assume the little VW engine doesn’t run. The combination of the two-liter engine and the Levi’s package probably makes this a fairly rare Gremlin, but it is not a project for the faint of heart.
I know these are both a bit frightening, but I feel like Thomas was being too easy on you all recently. I wanted to start the year off with some really scary stuff, so we have nowhere to go but up. So what’ll it be?
(Image credits: Saab – Bring A Trailer, Gremlin – Dan’s Old Cars)
I have to choose the Gremlin of, as my fat ass doesn’t have a chance in hell at fitting into that Saab, but uffta may that thing is ROUGH!
This Gremlin only has maybe 70HP in perfect running condition. It could barley drag the little thing around. It is rare in the Levi/2.0 configuration and they did get 33MPG in the 70’s, but damn.
The Sonett, takes me back to flight school. One of my buds was obsessed with them. He had two he was always tinkering with in the BOQ parking lot. I say tinkering, well actually attempting to revive by switching parts from one to the other. Every now and then he would get the orange one to fire up in a cloud of blue smoke. The white one never worked. The low curb weight made it easy to push around to alternate parking spots. I would say the Saab has the highest noise to power ratio of any car I knew. It sounded like a chain saw in a kids wagon.
Now the Gremlin, if this hot chick it college had not had one, I would have put it firmly in the totally weird category. The other aspect of the Gremlin is we had one at the UCLA engineering school that was hydrogen powered. It ran off liquid hydrogen and we also had a USPS postal Jeep that ran off gaseous hydrogen. So in my simple mind the Gremlin had this Hi-Tech, driven by hot chick aura. You see guys, we are really simple chimps, we like cool shiny objects and sex. Simple. So the Gremlin hit both peaks. It was still a strange car that tended to end up non-functional parked all over the place. Along with dead Vega’s and Pintos. This hydrogen revolution aspect, well this has been going on a stupidly long time with no production cars here in carland to speak of.
You probably shouldn’t use auctions for your shitbox showdowns, as bids placed after posting the article could raise the price, changing the value and voting.
Welcome back, Mark! Sorry again about your dad. We’re all looking forward to more brilliant pent up puns in the coming year!
Happy to see you back, and sorry for your loss. We would have put up with Thomas for a while longer yet if you needed more time to get your bearings straight again.
So, hang on, hang on.
I’m not a Sonnet expert, but you better believe I’m an AMC expert.
One, that’s not a Levi’s car. It’s just not. It’s cheap blue vinyl. The only way you could get a 1977 Gremlin with the Audi 2.0 was as a ‘Custom.’ Which did not have the Levi’s, it just had colors. And this is definitely a custom; they’re identifiable by the hockey stick decal on the side. 2 fat stripes bottom, 4 thin stripes above the bend.
This car is the epitome off “rare is not desirable.” Bad enough that the 2.0 is dog slow in these (it’s the lack of torque,) but worse, it’s the fuel injected version. Impossible to source parts for in every way.
‘Bad enough that the 2.0 is dog slow in these (it’s the lack of torque,) but worse, it’s the fuel injected version. Impossible to source parts for in every way.’
Are you sure about that? The Wiki article claims that engine in the Gremlin used a Weber/Holly carb rather than the Bosch K Jetronic in the 924 (and everything else).
Given the prevalence of Bosch K I’d think parts for THAT FI system should be common as dirt.
‘One, that’s not a Levi’s car. It’s just not.’
Then what’s with the Levi’s badge on the fender? Could be a fake but why would anyone care or bother for this POS?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_924
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_Gremlin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetronic#K
Literally this exact car, 2nd photo here:
https://www.motorcities.org/story-of-the-week/2019/a-look-back-at-american-motors-products-for-1977
Custom and the Levi’s interior were not mutually exclusive option selections. And man, there’s no way to tell what the material in the photos is with 20+ years of sun damage and rot.
I always loved Sonetts IIs & IIIs. I sat in a II and I remember it being really shockingly. Modern large CUVs would fail against it in knee room and a sense of openness (though this could be said of almost any old car from before the time they put Hummer H1 consoles in everything, the Sonett is a very small car). The 2-strokes had a prettier hood line, but I’d rather the V4. No interest in the Gremlin in any way, even if it was a mint condition Gremlin X, so this was the easiest vote yet for me.
*shockingly roomy.
Being rather an OAF*
I have personal experience with both of today’s
choicescars. My dad, an engineer by personality and profession freaking loved the early 60’s 2-stroke SAABs. They really were designed by aircraft engineers in those days: aerodynamic as f-heck (my dad like to turn OFF the windshield wipers at about 30 mph because the air flow over the hood kept the windshield free of rain). That tiny 2 stroke engine? Not much power and maybe 3 torques max, but you could wind the piss out it and hear it scream in pleasure**. My dad liked to say that ,”The redline on that engine is 1 RPM short of the destruction point of the materials”, and yes he blew up a few, but they were easy to swap out- smaller and lighter than an airline carry-on bag. Now, these SAABs handled really well because they were light and FWD. With no power to speak of – hell, barely whisper about- they were all about momentum. We lived in serious snow country, had studded snow tires, (think Vermont, but not Vermont) and my dad loved to bomb through the mountains at super-stupid speeds. But Hell, the cars weighed not much and what weight there was (including the driver) was focused on the front drive wheels. Snow and ice? Bring it on! We LOVE snow and ice! By the way, a 2 stroke SAAB won the Monte Carlo rally in 1962 and 1963. Just braggin’https://silodrome.com/saab-96-monte-carlo-850/
Now, finally for those still awake, we come to the Sonnet. The Sonnet was originally 2-stroke and powerless, so it was made as absolutely light as those aircraft guys could make it. I remember a line from a Road and Track review of the day, which I’ll paraphrase -” the fiberglass body is remarkably light but don’t let the cat walk on it…” Basically you had an engine , FWD and a fiberglass mailing envelope to cover it and: SEND IT! It was just you attached to the engine by the steering wheel, and you held on tight while it pulled you around. Fun? Hell Yeah!
And then… SAAB got the 4-stroke engine from Triumph (half a Stag V-8) and stuffed that sucker into the Sonnet – this explains the weird bump in the hood- it was “who let the sled dogs out?” I got to ride in one when my dad test drove it, and yeah, it was scary, rattly, shaky, fast, FUN. Only my mother the RN stopped that one from following us home. Do I want the one in the ad? Hell yes. I’ve always had a bit of death wish, and I am pretty sure if you die going fast in one of these, they let you into Valhalla and hand you a drink.
Now the Gremlin: my friend had one. When it was a couple years old, the accelerator pedal cable broke.Yeah. So, being poor and out of the 12 month warranty (Yeah), he ran some parachute cord through the dash and hooked one end the carb, and put a lawn-mower-starter style T-handle on the other end. I told him that I actually thought the car ran better that way. His response? “If I tied some parachute cord to your hooter and pulled, you’d run better too.
* OAF = Old As Fuck
** From “Antonio’s Song”, “Pleasure is the child of pain…”
Thank you sir! Golly didn’t that make me grin like a monkey 🙂
“SAAB got the 4-stroke engine from Triumph (half a Stag V-8) and stuffed that sucker into the Sonnet”
You’ve confused the Triumph slant four, which was used in the Saab 99, with the Ford Taunus V4, which was used in the 95, 96, and 97 (Sonett).
Indeed I have. I was wondering about it as I typed … The Triumph slant 4 (A side of Stag, if you will) first appeared in the SAAB 99 in 1968 – not in the Sonnet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_slant-four_engine
Were there an edit function……
I would amend the sentence
“SAAB got the 4-stroke engine from Triumph (half a Stag V-8) and stuffed that sucker into the Sonnet”
To read
SAAB got the 4-stroke engine Ford of Germany and stuffed that sucker into the Sonnet”
And credited you in the notes.
I shall definitely do so in the second edition..
SAAB, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways (Sonett 1969)
I dislike the Gremlin to begin with, but even that I would consider an insult to AMC Gremlins everywhere. That thing was -hated- throughout its life it looks like. It might only be classified as a barn find if it was hit -by- a barn? I wouldn’t touch it with a hundred foot pole even if to put it out of its misery.
I got to drive a near perfect sonett a couple of times. It was weird. Especially with the column shifted manual. But it had some cool.
I’ve always thought a high-performance restomod of a gremlin would be t*ts. Like a hellcat powered, big braked, coilovered, murdered out beast only it’s mother could love.
All that said, these two examples can only have one winner due to the condition. Saab.
Ask and you shall receive:
Hemi Gremmie! 1975 Gremlin with 426ci Hemi | Roadkill | MotorTrend
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2I7SnrpGCo
🙂
So bring me a boatload of money.
The Gremlins had a VERY successful career drag racing, because the body actually has a lot of flex. A LOT. But when AMC dropped the 304 in, they set it very low. I’d say it’s nearly 12 inches from low-rise valve cover to the hood, maybe more. And because the Gremlin was designed for the 258 I6 which is several inches longer and taller, there’s a ridiculous amount of room. It’s far less cramped than you’d think, aside from the manifolds.
The problems that need overcome on the Gremlin are substantial though. One, the frame has a lot of flex. Two, the LRA’s directly below the gas tank and. Three, the LRA’s dimensionally unique. Oh, and four: the Gremlin doesn’t have power brakes by default.
“Wait, what?” Go check all the photos you like. Power brakes were still new and a novelty, and consequently, an expensive option on the Gremlin. It’s not an easy retrofit. It’s also a single diaphragm which is inadequate for discs.
So what I’d likely build would be a low-sling roots-blown AMC 304 or 360 with MPFI (start at about 500HP, 500ft/lbs but can quickly go to north of 4 digits with the budget.) Lots of frame work is necessary. A complete IFS is available, so I’d roll with that. Rear’s a whole other story, but I’d prefer IRS. Transmission is definitely more of a question, but I have ideas.
Regardless of what the other choice is, it wins by default – the Gremlin is just that bad. Looking through the site pics, I don’t think there’s an undamaged body panel or decent piece of trim left on the vehicle. Unless it was the last Levi’s Edition in existence and Levi Strauss & Co. decided it absolutely had to have one for their corporate headquarters, there’s no way it’s bringing anywhere close to $2,000.
That Gremlin is in borderline parts car territory. The Saab looks very restorable, and is a good-looking car.
This isn’t even close to fair.
That Sonett is going to sell in the $10,000 range, maybe much more. Not only is it in very respectable condition, for some people, it’s a Goldilocks car. Early enough to have the soft curve body style like a ’60s Ferrari, but new enough to have the much more reliable V4 engine. I’d rather take the more fun and interesting 2 stroke, but either will sell strongly in this condition.
The Gremlin is garbage. It is a special edition car in VIN only, because the rest is worthless. The only thing I like about it is the crude truck-style shift lever for the manual transmission sticking up in the center. Those are always cool.
Silly me. I thought the Taunus V4 was also a 2-stroke.
Yes, the earlier ones IMO are much more beautiful. And more slippery. It is the latter that I highly value. As an EV conversion, the Sonett II could be a 150 Wh/mile car, meaning it will go decently far with a smallish 25-ish kWh pack. Of course, if I were to do this to a Sonett, I’d find one that needs an engine rebuild to mutilate. They’re getting quite rare.
A Netgain Hyper9HV system running off a 128V 200AH pack of CALB CA180FI would allow for potent performance and easily 150 miles of range for a total budget of under $15k in addition to the cost of the donor car, assuming you sourced all new parts. The car would probably do 0-60 mph in under 6 seconds, if you could get enough traction, and with the rev limit of the motor, on the Saab’s stock gearing, would easily top 150 mph. You could daily that shit.
These transmissions weren’t known for their strength on the V4. You’d probably want to have a different transmission or other way to get power to the wheels.
People will look and point when you drive either car down the street. The difference is, with the Sonnet they won’t laugh.
I have a few old pairs of Levi’s that look like that Gremlin. I wouldn’t go out in public in either the jeans or the car.
Are we sure this is a fair fight? What do people think that Sonnet is going to go for, in the end?
That said, it’s obviously the Saab. I mean, it at least kinda runs, it’s in much better cosmetic shape inside and out, it’s way more interesting than the Gremlin (not that Gremlins are boring, but come on…) and it’s just so pretty.
Also, $2,000 for a Gremlin in that kind of shape? The seller is clearly on something. That’s an “I’ll give you $100 more than the scrapyard would” car if I ever saw one.
Not sure I like the idea of having a BaT or other auction on here, that Sonnet still having 4 days to go will almost certainly land significantly higher than we usually look at with the showdown, making it a very uneven comparison. Having said that, that Gremlin is only worth being a parts car, and even at that there’s not much. There are some cars not worth getting back on the road, despite what DT thinks.
Would DT even touch that Gremlin?
Would anyone touch it and live?
You know a car is in bad shape when the comment section includes discussions about whether David Tracy would be tempted.
I’m basing it on the posted here price, like buy it now,
even if it goes significantly higher it’s still a better value
The value of the Gremlin is in its well kept special edition interior.
The Saab likely has some gremlins but that AMC is seriously per-verse.
The Saab is not a Kammback, but the AMC has been in Terminal Island for years.
The SAAB looks like a respectable project.
The Gremlin looks like something that the pre-2023 iteration of the David Tracy character would have conned himself into owning.
I pick the SAAB. (-;
I would agree with you except the price is right at 10x too much on the Gremlin for DT to consider.
Welcome back! Such an interesting match up but I gotta go with the Sonnet. There is just not much worth saving on that Gremlin.
Mr. David Tracy to the white courtesy phone…
Mr. David Tracy to the white courtesy phone…
I could write a sonnet about that Sonnet!
Yikes. That Gremlin is ROUGH. I’m not sure it would be worth much in running shape either. My aunt had an AMC with the Levi’s interior, too, but it was a Jeep CJ. I’d MUCH rather have that than the Gremlin.
Don’t know much about Sonnets, either, but I’ll take that one. Looks like poetry in motion, compared to the lil’ monster.